Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[SilentCarto]

…You may have gathered that Vitiosus is perhaps not quite a paragon of goodness and morality.

Well okay then! I was giving him the benefit of the doubt...

[SilentCarto]

I skimmed it. I don't have it in me to give it a proper read because I was told what happens, confirmed key moments to find out if the post was bullshitting me or not and realised it wasn't.
I haven't got it in me to give it a proper read.

I can't imagine what in the changes could possibly be so offensive to you. After the revisions, it pretty well matches any other boss fight BJ has ever been in.

[Kippershy]

Have you read the change yourself yet?

I skimmed it. I don't have it in me to give it a proper read because I was told what happens, confirmed key moments to find out if the post was bullshitting me or not and realised it wasn't.
I haven't got it in me to give it a proper read.

I suppose I should at some point, but not tonight. I should really be asleep right now, but the Flutterrape threads need me.

Seriously, Kipper - stop letting people ruin things for you. There are multiple ways to read something, and most of those guys are not reading it for any reason except to hate it at this point, whether or not they are doing so intentionally. The things they take away will shape how you read it, inevitably.

Actually, no. The reason I'm not reading it is because someone said quite matter of factly what it contained, the major points of it and nothing more.
When I checked out if they were bullshitting me, they weren't. They had no bias in their post, only "this happens, this is why this, then that happens and ends with this".
I'm not being told to hate it and following it blindly from there. I'm being told what the rewrite consisted of before I could've been bothered to getting around to reading it myself and I'm not keen on what I'm hearing.

Will I go and read the revised part? Like I said, at some point, yes. Will I do it right now? No. Does that mean I shouldn't make an opinion on what I've been told it basically sums up as? Well, I can make an opinion on what it's summed up to be at the very least, and that's what I'm doing.


PH has changed. Or perhaps it hasn't, perhaps it's the fact I wasn't worn down by everything before, but now I'm just asking myself "what the fuck."

[O. Hinds]

…You may have gathered that Vitiosus is perhaps not quite a paragon of goodness and morality.

Well okay then! I was giving him the benefit of the doubt...

He could also just be lying to get at Blackjack, but I wouldn't put it past him to be speaking truthfully about that.

[Overthepacific]

PH has changed. Or perhaps it hasn't, perhaps it's the fact I wasn't worn down by everything before, but now I'm just asking myself "what the fuck."

The problem with it now is that it isn't changing anymore. All of the characters are stuck in a rut and being put through different events that just feel like more of the same. Some people may say its more "realistic", but in the end it is just boring. Especially considering the length.

I personally feel like the new end is a step in the right direction, but for the something to reinvigorate PH to be as exciting as it once was, the new chapters are going to have to really start pushing out of the crap they've been in.

I think that the backlash after 54 was a good thing, now maybe things will start to change for the better after all of the complaints have really come to light. But I'm still waiting on 55 before I jump the gun, especially over the new edits to 54.

[Guest]

Actually, no. The reason I'm not reading it is because someone said quite matter of factly what it contained, the major points of it and nothing more.
When I checked out if they were bullshitting me, they weren't. They had no bias in their post, only "this happens, this is why this, then that happens and ends with this".
I'm not being told to hate it and following it blindly from there. I'm being told what the rewrite consisted of before I could've been bothered to getting around to reading it myself and I'm not keen on what I'm hearing.

Will I go and read the revised part? Like I said, at some point, yes. Will I do it right now? No. Does that mean I shouldn't make an opinion on what I've been told it basically sums up as? Well, I can make an opinion on what it's summed up to be at the very least, and that's what I'm doing.

PH has changed. Or perhaps it hasn't, perhaps it's the fact I wasn't worn down by everything before, but now I'm just asking myself "what the fuck."

So there is no commentary whatsoever on the edits over yonder, that you have read? Kipper, you can go ahead and make an opinion, but it's simply not the case that you are doing so in a vacuum. :(

[FeatherDust]

I personally like the revisions. I never had a great problem with the "DBZ" version of the fight, but this version, with the greater discussion, and the near death thing, I really like; even BJ can't take a shot to the head with impunity. Plus the whole coyotl-is-steelpony bit made me go WHAAAAAAAT. So that's good.

[Ketchup]

I personally like the revisions. I never had a great problem with the "DBZ" version of the fight, but this version, with the greater discussion, and the near death thing, I really like; even BJ can't take a shot to the head with impunity. Plus the whole coyotl-is-steelpony bit made me go WHAAAAAAAT. So that's good.

Indeed, the fight has a bigger effect on the plot(s) in the latest revision.
I liked the revelation that The Brood(I think they sound more sinister that way, heh.) is Steelpony material. It leads to the question of who provided the technology.
Maybe Dr.Zodiac, but I don't remember any motivation that would make her do that, specifically.

[Somber]

Zony

[Ketchup]

Zony

Well yes, but I don't remember her being aligned with the zebras, but rather with Equestria, though my memory is faulty at best.

[Kippershy]

Actually, no. The reason I'm not reading it is because someone said quite matter of factly what it contained, the major points of it and nothing more.
When I checked out if they were bullshitting me, they weren't. They had no bias in their post, only "this happens, this is why this, then that happens and ends with this".
I'm not being told to hate it and following it blindly from there. I'm being told what the rewrite consisted of before I could've been bothered to getting around to reading it myself and I'm not keen on what I'm hearing.

Will I go and read the revised part? Like I said, at some point, yes. Will I do it right now? No. Does that mean I shouldn't make an opinion on what I've been told it basically sums up as? Well, I can make an opinion on what it's summed up to be at the very least, and that's what I'm doing.

PH has changed. Or perhaps it hasn't, perhaps it's the fact I wasn't worn down by everything before, but now I'm just asking myself "what the fuck."

So there is no commentary whatsoever on the edits over yonder, that you have read? Kipper, you can go ahead and make an opinion, but it's simply not the case that you are doing so in a vacuum. :(

Well fuck me, just lost everything I wrote. Rewrite time.


I don't know what you mean with that phrase, but it makes no sense to me. And for the record, the only informative post on 4chan was one where it simply said, "this is what the revision is about."
No reviews, very little spam. People are just giving up on this.
What I did was not to believe that post at first, when I first saw it. I was hoping to god Somber wouldn't have made it so fucking... ugh. Anyway, I base my opinion off the fact I ran the facts against this post and found out it was all true.
It's fucking stupidity, in my mind.
Why?

Because there's this need to "kick it up to 11" whenever Somber wants to make anything that makes any impact, but instead of being cool it becomes cringy and JRPG-esque bullshit.
Giving the zebras steelpony?
Luna turning into nightmare moon and stomping on Blackjack?
Blackjack doing a monologue and shooting blackjack? (Yes I'm aware these are hallucinations, I'm getting to it.)
Blackjack "coming close to dying"?

Give me a fucking break.

We ALL know that Blackjack is the biggest Mary Sue in the Fallout-verse and only second to the Marty Stu of Goldenblood. This chapter did him no favours because you can bet it was him who gave the zebras steelpony, if it wasn't already confirmed to be. I dunno.
Anyway, back to my point.
Blackjack being in "danger"? That's a joke these days, against a foe like this anyway.
We all know that at the end of the day she's going to get better and eventually beat the Legate before taking her final form (probably astral) and defeating the EoS in the only way it's possible to do so before finally accepting death and the story ending.
We all know that she can't die here because she's the oh so super important character that isn't just going to save the day and clean the skies, but save the whole world from a threat that no-one else could make a scratch against

I used to feel like fights could get tense and worried when Blackjack got hurt because she'd actually get hurt. Even back when she was using hydra instead of robopowers she thought that the hydra was quickly killing her in its own way each time she used it, but that wasn't the case.
Now? Now it doesn't matter what you do to her, even if she dies she'll come back somehow and then eat some metal, gems, food and rest up no more than a day before setting off another nuke.
You can only die so many times (or come close to it) before the reader turns around and says you're pulling the same shit as always and that its boring.

Like I say, it's become a shitty JRPG, its just like Final Fantasy 13.


See my point now? You can demonise 4chan all you want, but that doesn't change the fact I have some very legit opinions and while yes they may have been the ones to open my mind to them, I don't hold it against them or think they're gods for it.
4chan is just another means to talk.
Just because they're anonymous over there doesn't mean they don't have valid points to make, hell, if you get them actually speaking rather than bitching in no focused direction they'll say stuff like this with a very good point, example of their point and execution to that point.


and yeah, Pacific is right. The trouble is nothing ever changes.
Just because the scenery does, doesn't mean the story itself has.
Project Horizons used to be a lot of fun with a lot of variance in hat it did.
Now it just feels like a one trick pony that's growing old and trying to do the same thing over and over in hopes of impressing people.


I don't know how Somber could revive the sense of things actually being a threat to Blackjack any more, but its certainly not through almost killing her for the 'th time.
Perhaps he should stop focusing on Blackjack so much and shift the focus onto her allies instead, who are much more vulnerable and therefore an easier target for enemies?
If you force Blackjack to play babysitter, you effectively weaken her dramatically.

[The Holy Tuna]

Blackjack also doesn't come "close to dying" in that sense. The shot misses her brainstem, yes, and if it had hit that she would have died.
However, as it stands, all Glory does to patch her up and stick a new robot eye in. Her healing factor can do the rest. All she got was a bit of trauma to the brain, in the end.

That's part of the point he's trying to make. Blackjack doesn't come close to death any more, she just replaces the damaged part and moved on, and because of that there isn't any tension. It isn't Blackjack fighting for her life with any real sense of danger, just her chugging healing items as she tanks damage, winning because she has a larger health pool than the enemy. She's the player that completes every quest and finds every unique, curb stomping without a care because she doubles the level of everyone else and thus never faces a real challenge.

[Somber]

Should have killed BJ on ch 33 and quit. Sounds like it would have been a better fic. Cause unless I kill off character like George R. Martin, it's just boring. So you want me to kill of characters. Fine. I'll start killing off characters.

BTW... at any point in the Oddessy did you think Ulysses was going to die? How about Rand Al Thor? You expect him to die before the end? Or Belgarion? Or Luke Skywalker?

The fucking fact is that if BJ dies before the end then the story is DONE. Because all that shit that was done about her being related to Twilight becomes fucking moot.

I don't even know why the fuck I'm writing this any more.

[WavemasterRyx]

Zony

Well yes, but I don't remember her being aligned with the zebras, but rather with Equestria, though my memory is faulty at best.

I could be remembering entirely wrong, but I thought she was involved with Fluttershy giving the megaspells to the zebra.

I don't even know why the fuck I'm writing this any more.

"For the people that actually care about it" is what I would say.

*hugs Somber lightly*

[The Holy Tuna]

Should have killed BJ on ch 33 and quit. Sounds like it would have been a better fic. Cause unless I kill off character like George R. Martin, it's just boring. So you want me to kill of characters. Fine. I'll start killing off characters.

Should have killed off BJ? Maybe, it would have been an interesting read, but I wouldn't say it would have been objectively better. Quit? Hell no! Regardless of the current plot, the universe you have created is far too intricate and thought-out to just throw away. Hoofington, for all the falling boats and evervation and kill-you-just-by-being-there, is a brilliantly crafted setting. To throw all of that away would be incredibly wasteful.

Don't take what everyone says too close to heart (and if that doesn't sound like me trying to justify kicking a puppy...). None (or at least, very few) of us want you to quit. We've stuck around for a reason. We're kicking around so many ideas and theories because if you get enough people in one place there is bound to be conflict, and because we have a direct line to you, we throw them around in the hopes of helping you make Project Horizons as good as possible. We want to help you, Somber, not hurt you.

My suggestion? Rein back the epic battles and set pieces. Have Blackjack's repair talisman malfunction and have to deal with low power availability. Have Blackjack make a choice between EC-1101 and her friends with lasting consequence. Have her alone for a while, with all the relationship problems it will bring. Equally, ignore my ramblings, because I haven't had a lot of sleep.

[Guest]

Well that took all of like ten minutes.

[The Holy Tuna]

winning because she has a larger health pool than the enemy.

But that's not what happened here.
What happened here is she got lucky and Lancer took a shot that went through her right eye and out under her right ear. Trace the shot yourself; it pretty much missed the brain entirely. While I couldn't replace my eye, I bet I could live through that shot, myself.

I was referring to Blackjack's fighting style in general, not that one instance, but I understand the confusion. Either way, you can't deny my point; since her upgrades, she's found that tanking damage and healing later is easier than planning strategically and executing surgically.

[Downloaded Skill]

Kipper, while I respect your opinions, I have to chime in here that I do not think you're correct.

Has the action been scaling up as the story goes along? Yes it has, but the Legate has been foreshadowed as a badass and capable character since early on. Given the zebra's tendencies for infiltration, sabotage, and the like its not a stretch to think that the Zebra's stole Steelpony. Given their machine focus, its also possible the Equestrians stole it from them.

I also believe that BJ is not a mary sue. A mary sue is flawless and warping character that disrupts suspension of disbelief. Given how many flaws she has, enemies she's made, and atrocities she's committed that have ended up negatively affecting the wasteland and herself she can't be a mary sue. The only Marty stu types were Goldenblood, which has lessened over time, and Stygius, who was a somewhat downplayed but noticeable example.

On the topic of fighting and danger since BJ is the main character and her story isn't over she simply can not die. She has plot armor. She suffers, but won't die. If she dies then the story is over and all the foreshadowed details and unfulfilled plot lines are meaningless. Sure the story can continue with a new viewpoint character, but it won't be the same if the plot points related to BJ are completed without her presence. Logic will ultimately lose to reader enjoyability and plot resolution. Did you think Littlepip was going to die during her fights against raiders or during her infiltration of Fillydelphia? Main characters don't die for good without heavy foreshadowing or at a climatic story changing moment. Applesnack's death was foreshadowed heavily and many chapters before his death. The legate was just introduced, his story is just starting to fall into place. BJ can't die against him yet. The only real egregious use of plot armor was Glory taking the land mine to the face in the sand dogs tunnels. BJ may be functionally immortal until the end like any main character, but she still takes hits and suffers injuries. Thats all we can expect for now.

As for things not changing, given how long horizons is and its state at being over half complete there really can't be any significant curve balls. Horizons has an ungodly amount of unfinished plot threads and elements to link together. Given how established the world is there really can't be another threat introduced that wouldn't seem questionable. Horizons would be better off trying to sort everything out and make sense of it instead of just introducing new things willy nilly.

Does 4chan have points? Yes, but I think they are drastically over stating things.

[Guest]

Well that took all of like ten minutes.

...why did you delete your post?

It took ten minutes for me to decide it wasn't gonna be helpful and to regret having posted it. >_< Eeyup.

[Downloaded Skill]

Its for the better. No offense Cobalt I read your post and it seemed like a personal critique of Kipper. Lets focus more on the topics and less on the people posting. It's better that way for everyone.

[Guest]

Its for the better. No offense Cobalt I read your post and it seemed like a personal critique of Kipper. Lets focus more on the topics and less on the people posting. It's better that way for everyone.

Eeyup.

Although I do regret losing that version of Crime and Punishment, I kinda liked it. It was punchy. Oh well, back to killing the alligator.

[Somber]

My problem right now is due to getting sick last sunday, mond, tues, finding out I am getting fired weds, finding out I owe taxes on thurdsay, getting a relapse of sick on friday, spending 6 hours fixing 54 saturday, and getting hit by a flat bed truck today and messing up my body and car today. I am more than a bit frazzled atm.

[Guest]

My problem right now is due to getting sick last sunday, mond, tues, finding out I am getting fired weds, finding out I owe taxes on thurdsay, getting a relapse of sick on friday, spending 6 hours fixing 54 saturday, and getting hit by a flat bed truck today and messing up my body and car today. I am more than a bit frazzled atm.

Jesus fuck, "understandable" would be an understatement. Sorry for the pithy turn of phrase, I know English teachers (rightly) hate those. Seriously, you okay? No concussion or broken bits or anything, car still functional enough?

[Somber]

car drives. Car will probably be totalled as I think the frame is bent. got hit on the driver's side pasenger door. I feel like BJ after fighting the legate... minus the eye...

edit: I also have 140 papers to grade and 4 inches of other assignments to get in the computer during spring break...

[The Holy Tuna]

I take it back. Given Somber's past week, Blackjack's endeavours are completely believable.

[Guest]

@Somber
You take care of yourself, and maybe see a doctor if you can manage and haven't already. Car accidents are no joke - plenty of folks around here can explain the forces involved, I bet. Also, I know what that paperload is like by proxy - my mum's a high school chemistry teacher, and she brings her grading with her everywhere she goes. There's always more to do. (She is also where I learned about caffeine)

[WavemasterRyx]

I'm really sorry to hear things are going so badly, sir... Please try to take care of yourself... More than ever you have my best wishes for you.

[Kippershy]

Somber, quick post cos on my phone and trying to eat breakfast...
you're focusing on all the wrong parts of my post, addressing the wrong complaints.
Blackjack doesn't havve enough tension because anything -she- comes against can't do enough to -her- ...so ramp up the difficulty by making the others the target of attacks, the ones who have a lot more risk to every strike they receive.

lets pretend P-21 dies because Blackjack fails to protect him...that would break status quo and really make things change.
every mc has plot armour but its getting to levels of abuse

[Somber]

... um, I have all the character deaths planned out.

[Kippershy]

Somber, just read the rest of the thread. First of all, hope things get better for you soon and that your car is fixed up cheap. The fact you're alive at all is good, so you have that. As for the deaths thing, that's why I only said lets pretend.
the point of it is to say put others at risk, Blackjack has proven herself too hard a target.
make the enemies smart about it, attacking the weaker ones first.
even if you only wound them it would still scare Blackjack and change things up instead of constant focus soley on her during fights, also playing into her 'security saves' role.

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