Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Somber]

and if I put the others at risk or injure them significantly then BJ gets to angst.

And if you recall, when I TRIED to do that, we ended up with DBZebra.

So please... just... stop. I can take being a failure. My life is a practice in failure. I'm quite good at it. I don't need it rubbed in my face by you and 4chan.

[CD]

BTW... at any point in the Oddessy did you think Ulysses was going to die?

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing earlier this morning. Wouldn't that be a twist if a drunken crewmember shanked him in a drunken fit?

[Kippershy]

I actually wasn't trying to upset you with this, believe me or not.
yes i've passed on messages from 4chan but only because I believe they're an unheard voice that has some depth at times.

either way i'll stop now, upsetting you wasn't my goal but rather to try offer my help.
still, yeah, that's it from me.

[Kippershy]

Oh, also - if you'd like to, send the message to me direct cobalt. Im honestly curious as to see what you had to say and i've got a thick skin and i'll find it hilarious more than anything else knowing me and my humour.

[Derpmind]

I actually wasn't trying to upset you with this, believe me or not..
either way i'll stop now, upsetting you wasn't my goal but rather to try offer my help.

Ya know ponies, if you can't separate what you want to say from what might hurt people, maybe it's better to just not say anything at all. Figure out a way to talk about stuff without throwing daggers of negative emotions in everyone's face, please.

Kippershy, "I'll stop... now" isn't much of an apology.

... um, I have all the character deaths planned out.

Calling it now: Lacunae's gonna get it after she opens up about herself.

[Guest]

Oh, also - if you'd like to, send the message to me direct cobalt. Im honestly curious as to see what you had to say and i've got a thick skin and i'll find it hilarious more than anything else knowing me and my humour.

Ach, I don't have it saved or anything. 'Twas a long bit involving psychoanalysis, theory on anarchism (secretly), and I think I complained about TVTropes and metagaming non-Joss Whedon media. Only, even less coherent than that sounds.

[O. Hinds]

Well yes, but I don't remember her being aligned with the zebras, but rather with Equestria, though my memory is faulty at best.

Not just any zony.

“Your father is Doctor Propos at the Roam Academy of Sciences and a part of the Caesar’s cabinet.  Your mother is the aunt of a ministry mare.  The suspicions of the ministries are unfortunate but not unreasonable,” he said in his soft, raspy voice.  It made Silver Stripe lean towards him a little.  “However, I am not here on behalf of the ministries.  I am here looking to recruit you for an alternative program of my own.  And, I assure you, I could not care less about your lineage.”

Zony

Well yes, but I don't remember her being aligned with the zebras, but rather with Equestria, though my memory is faulty at best.

I could be remembering entirely wrong, but I thought she was involved with Fluttershy giving the megaspells to the zebra.

Well, at this point, you don't know that she was involved with any espionage. I know a bit more than nothing... but of course I can't tell you about that. :)

I don't even know why the fuck I'm writing this any more.

"For the people that actually care about it" is what I would say.

*hugs Somber lightly*

This.

My problem right now is due to getting sick last sunday, mond, tues, finding out I am getting fired weds, finding out I owe taxes on thurdsay, getting a relapse of sick on friday, spending 6 hours fixing 54 saturday, and getting hit by a flat bed truck today and messing up my body and car today. I am more than a bit frazzled atm.

...My. Good luck, Somber; it sounds like you need some. Let us know if there's any way that we can help.

BTW... at any point in the Oddessy did you think Ulysses was going to die?

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing earlier this morning. Wouldn't that be a twist if a drunken crewmember shanked him in a drunken fit?

"Sing to me, muse, of that guy Odysseus who tried to board his ship to leave Troy, tripped due to his hangover, cracked his head open, and died! ...Huh, that was short. Anyone for a play?"

[Kippershy]

Because quite frankly, I wasn't.

[Kippershy]

Damn it, that sounds interesting cobalt

[Somber]

Try this Kippershy: If I ever want to know what 4chan thinks of my story, I'll go there myself. Right now, what 4chan wants is going to kill my story and me. I write to live. It gives me something to hang on to.

Oh, and please tell them I was fired for the same reason PH sucks: I am as shitty a teacher as I am as shitty a writer.

[Somber]

My last day is in June.

[Icy Shake]

Wow, Somber. I'm sorry. Remember we're here for you, and all hope things start looking up for you soon.

On to the story, Somber's right about Blackjack—even before 33 I never actually expected her to die, instead seeing her suffering as the tension provider. Since then, again, her non-physical problems have been what keep me worried. I fear that she'll lose herself, or force away everyone she cares about in the pursuit of her plot-related goals, or give in to despair, or, yes, lose friends to violence. But Somber's on that, even independent of his earlier comments in this thread: in just the original 54 he set up the potential for an Enclave kidnapping of Glory as a looming threat, and both in the original chapter and the newest revision much of the threat from the Legate battle came from the potential harm to other members of Blackjack's party—though in the original that lead to "DBZebra" and in the latest revision it was more subtle, if still singled out as disturbing by at least one commenter.

Now, I do think that there are problems with just using Blackjack's friends as the source of perceived danger, in particular that, as I recall being said several times here, in general it makes sense to put only Blackjack, Rampage, and Deus directly in harm's way. As such, there need to be other considerations to keep the others nearby during fights, or up the ambush ratio must increase. Fortunately, things have been set up to allow this, with Blackjack being hopelessly unable to do many things for herself, and now the added need to keep an eye on Glory. Sure, there are cases to be made that P-21, Scotch, and Boo shouldn't be there, but I feel like those are based on tactical considerations, not on the characters' personalities.

Oh, and I recall that one major criticism has been that since Blackjack's cyberization, she's gone much more brute force in her M.O., relying less on cleverness, sneakiness, and luck than before. What's a great way to reintroduce those elements? Put her up against someone she can't just overpower. Which just happened, twice, and should lead to some payoff along those lines soon.

[Meleagridis]

Criminy day thunder. Kippershy, run your words past someone who DOES NOT go to 4chan before you make them available to be seen. You defend that place pretty adamantly, but you're honestly reinforcing my own aversion to it.

I was referring to Blackjack's fighting style in general, not that one instance, but I understand the confusion. Either way, you can't deny my point; since her upgrades, she's found that tanking damage and healing later is easier than planning strategically and executing surgically.

She's one of the monsters now. She's gone through what happens to heroes that survive- further and further away from human (er, pony) into something above it. Stonewing probably stopped any and all fancy flying tricks after he could soak up bullets like a tank. Doubt Doof remembered what cover meant when it basically amounted to 'his torso.'

Blackjack is now the same as a villain's brutish commander, one of the monstrous brutes that need to be conquered before getting to the evil mastermind. She is above and beyond the normal. In short: put past Blackjack anything you'd put past old Deus. Her challenges are more mental than physical now.

Least that's what I make of it.

Oh, and I recall that one major criticism has been that since Blackjack's cyberization, she's gone much more brute force in her M.O., relying less on cleverness, sneakiness, and luck than before. What's a great way to reintroduce those elements? Put her up against someone she can't just overpower. Which just happened, twice, and should lead to some payoff along those lines soon.

Now there's nothing wrong with this (and it just happened, so I guess this paragraph will be moot but meh). Still, after all this hubbub about fights and tough BJ, I honestly wouldn't mind if nothing could physically stand in her way. PH has demonstrated time and time again that death is not the only consequence- and often not even the worst. If Blackjack could curbstomp everything from raiders to dragons then what would that mean for her?

[O. Hinds]

Oh, and please tell them I was fired for the same reason PH sucks: I am as shitty a teacher as I am as shitty a writer.

Now I know that that's not true. You told me why you were fired, and I'm still firmly convinced that you were doing just what you ought to do but were treated unjustly.

[Quotidian]

My problem right now is due to getting sick last sunday, mond, tues, finding out I am getting fired weds, finding out I owe taxes on thurdsay, getting a relapse of sick on friday, spending 6 hours fixing 54 saturday, and getting hit by a flat bed truck today and messing up my body and car today. I am more than a bit frazzled atm.

Hoo lee shit. That... man. Good to hear you're still in one piece, though. Well, more or less. Anything we can do to help?

[Somber]

I'll tell folks in June. I have students who can read this board.

[Ketchup]

@Somber troubles:
All I can say is to take the story where you want it to go and how you want it to get there. If 4chan doesn't like it then they can stop reading it. You are capable of being a good writer, and some of us still think you are one, from what I gather. PH has been quite a ride for me, I can say that.

As for the employment troubles and the automobile accident, I can't offer anything but sympathies. I hope you will find the motivation to persevere, and not to give up.

Well yes, but I don't remember her being aligned with the zebras, but rather with Equestria, though my memory is faulty at best.

Not just any zony.

“Your father is Doctor Propos at the Roam Academy of Sciences and a part of the Caesar’s cabinet.  Your mother is the aunt of a ministry mare.  The suspicions of the ministries are unfortunate but not unreasonable,” he said in his soft, raspy voice.  It made Silver Stripe lean towards him a little.  “However, I am not here on behalf of the ministries.  I am here looking to recruit you for an alternative program of my own.  And, I assure you, I could not care less about your lineage.”

Zony

Well yes, but I don't remember her being aligned with the zebras, but rather with Equestria, though my memory is faulty at best.

I could be remembering entirely wrong, but I thought she was involved with Fluttershy giving the megaspells to the zebra.

Well, at this point, you don't know that she was involved with any espionage. I know a bit more than nothing... but of course I can't tell you about that. :)

Ah, thank you. But that doesn't really tell us her loyalties, those are pretty strong ties to both parties. We don't know much yet, but I'm glad Zodiac might appear again.
But pretty much everyone does some form of espionage in PH, so it'd be unsurprising.
*insert ramble about re-reading the story here*

[Vergil]

Pretty much everything Ketchup said is double for me. I'm too tired to write for myself today.

[Downloaded Skill]

I'll tell folks in June. I have students who can read this board.

So wait. Do your students know about this work? Are they lurking around here? It seems unlikely that any of your students would know about this board unless you told them what you do in your spare time, but I understand the secrecy.

While I wish there was more that I could do for you Somber the only things I can offer you are my sympathies and emotional support. I hope things get better for you soon.

[Overthepacific]

Should have killed BJ on ch 33 and quit. Sounds like it would have been a better fic. Cause unless I kill off character like George R. Martin, it's just boring. So you want me to kill of characters. Fine. I'll start killing off characters.

I don't even know why the fuck I'm writing this any more.

Hey, let's not get irrational here. I understand a lot of complaints are coming in and causing undue stress, but in the end, that isn't what matters. This is your story, all of the complaints are here to try and suggest a better alternative to what they think is wrong with the story. It's there for you to consider it in the future writing process, not to bring you down.

You could cut it off at 33 and quit because some people want you to, if that's what you really want for the story. But giving up on it now after all of this, is that really what you want? I'm not saying to ignore those who think less of the story, but listen to them and really consider what they have to say, if you actually feel like you should change it, then change it.

I could go on six ways to sunday about how I think the story might be better, but when it comes down to actually writing this story, it's up to you, no one else is going to decide what to write for you. If everything gets to you and you feel like you really have to change the story, then you probably should. But if you this is what you really want for the story, the direction you want to take it, then fuck them, this is your story, not theirs. You can do whatever the hell you want with it as long as you are happy with it. They wont matter when you look back at the finished product and feel proud at what you've created.

Oh, and please tell them I was fired for the same reason PH sucks: I am as shitty a teacher as I am as shitty a writer.

Damn, need to work on that self confidence. You're a great writer,but everybody hits some speedbumps every now and then.You have one of the major FoE sidefics and a bunch of other six star stuff on eqd for a reason. I know everyone else here says it, but coming from a person who was on the side of the complaints, you are an amazing writer, even considering current events.

So please... just... stop. I can take being a
failure. My life is a practice in failure. I'm quite good at it. I
don't need it rubbed in my face by you and 4chan.

Failure is a more objective thing. Just think of this more as a learning experience.

Overall, if it's really getting that much stress to you. Maybe take a break for a little while? Write something else, get back down to your roots of what you used to write or read, or just get your mind off of it. Maybe taking time to really think about what you want wouldn't be such a bad thing. None of us would think less of you.

And I wish you luck with everything else too. I know how expensive a wreck can be. Really messes up the daily balance of things. I hope it all sorts out for you.

[Icy Shake]

I was referring to Blackjack's fighting style in general, not that one instance, but I understand the confusion. Either way, you can't deny my point; since her upgrades, she's found that tanking damage and healing later is easier than planning strategically and executing surgically.

She's one of the monsters now. She's gone through what happens to heroes that survive- further and further away from human (er, pony) into something above it. Stonewing probably stopped any and all fancy flying tricks after he could soak up bullets like a tank. Doubt Doof remembered what cover meant when it basically amounted to 'his torso.'

Blackjack is now the same as a villain's brutish commander, one of the monstrous brutes that need to be conquered before getting to the evil mastermind. She is above and beyond the normal. In short: put past Blackjack anything you'd put past old Deus. Her challenges are more mental than physical now.

Least that's what I make of it.

This is all true. Crucially, it's the basis for much of the real conflict currently in PH—BJ's need not to become in mind and spirit what she already is in body, and what the zebras in particular expect her to be due to destiny.

Likewise, this colors her relationships with those around her via her friends' struggle to help her in that goal, even though it tends to come at the cost of great personal pain.

I think it's telling that Lucidity is often brought up as one of the best parts of post-33 PH, as it was probably the chapter that most focused on Blackjack's personal struggles, rather than the larger tasks placed before her (along with A Good Day, which in my opinion was also something of a high point). Of course, as Project Horizons is the story of Blackjack in the Hoofington wasteland, both need to be given their time, but I think it's key to remember the distinction between who Blackjack is and what Blackjack does.

Because I care more about the former (and in large part about the latter due to how it influences the former), I'm often more interested in Blackjack working with Rampage, helping P-21 and Scotch, being there for Glory, and whatever will happen with Lacunae than tension from battles. Bringing it back around to what you were saying, BJ the invincible Reaper/Maiden of destiny could allow more time to be spent on these issues, via less time needing to be expended on fight scenes—but would also inevitably impact how they are dealt with, how the respective others respond, etc. Which could be interesting in itself.

Oh, and I recall that one major criticism has been that since Blackjack's cyberization, she's gone much more brute force in her M.O., relying less on cleverness, sneakiness, and luck than before. What's a great way to reintroduce those elements? Put her up against someone she can't just overpower. Which just happened, twice, and should lead to some payoff along those lines soon.

Now there's nothing wrong with this (and it just happened, so I guess this paragraph will be moot but meh). Still, after all this hubbub about fights and tough BJ, I honestly wouldn't mind if nothing could physically stand in her way. PH has demonstrated time and time again that death is not the only consequence- and often not even the worst. If Blackjack could curbstomp everything from raiders to dragons then what would that mean for her?

I'm with you entirely. I think that it could be a far more dangerous situation, for both Blackjack and everyone else, than if she simply remained vulnerable to the physical hazards of the wasteland.

[hawkeye92]

I'd really not worry about what 4Chan is saying. It IS the internet hate machine after all. There's a real risk that if you take what they're saying to heart they'll just keep going to get another reaction and to see how far they can go.
The whole 'let's bitch about Project Horizons' thing is probably because people know its a good way to stir up a storm and get some free entertainment.
I agree with the sentiment that what they're suggesting would kill the story and to be honest a lot of the issues, especially the length, is mainly down to personal taste and the fact that people don't always realise that although something is long, if you stop enjoying it you can just stop reading, it's not like you've spent a fortune on the books. If you do enjoy it, there's more to enjoy.

[Overthepacific]

I'd really not worry about what 4Chan is saying. It IS the internet hate machine after all. There's a real risk that if you take what they're saying to heart they'll just keep going to get another reaction and to see how far they can go.
The whole 'let's bitch about Project Horizons' thing is probably because people know its a good way to stir up a storm and get some free entertainment.
I agree with the sentiment that what they're suggesting would kill the story and to be honest a lot of the issues, especially the length, is mainly down to personal taste and the fact that people don't always realise that although something is long, if you stop enjoying it you can just stop reading, it's not like you've spent a fortune on the books. If you do enjoy it, there's more to enjoy.

So you just want people to read the million words of PH so far and then just stop? Do you have any idea how frustrating that would be? A lot of people who started voicing their complaints simply want to have the excitement in the story they once had, especially after dedicating so much time to reading it. Diving into an amazing story only to have it wane out into monotony is what they're concerned about, not just wanting to stir up shit.

Yes, many of the complaints are personal opinion, quality is too. Some people may think it's bad, others think it's perfect. That's what were here to talk about. You cant just talk about the great things about the story, you have to talk about what you didn't like either. Otherwise, no one is going to learn from anything, and nothing will get better for anyone.

It really irks me when people generalize about a whole group like that. Yes, some of them are just saying that to get a rise, and to simply hate because they can, but some of them have legitimate opinions of this and are just voicing their concerns. Disregarding them in their entirety because of a select few, or a bad reputation is just wrong. Just don't be so quick to judge, anyway.

But really, kippershy was the one who started it, and he really didn't relay anything from /mlp/, he just based an opinion off of a description from there. If you have a problem with it, you might be better off taking it up with him instead.

[Ketchup]

Oh, and I recall that one major criticism has been that since Blackjack's cyberization, she's gone much more brute force in her M.O., relying less on cleverness, sneakiness, and luck than before. What's a great way to reintroduce those elements? Put her up against someone she can't just overpower. Which just happened, twice, and should lead to some payoff along those lines soon.

Now there's nothing wrong with this (and it just happened, so I guess this paragraph will be moot but meh). Still, after all this hubbub about fights and tough BJ, I honestly wouldn't mind if nothing could physically stand in her way. PH has demonstrated time and time again that death is not the only consequence- and often not even the worst. If Blackjack could curbstomp everything from raiders to dragons then what would that mean for her?

I'm with you entirely. I think that it could be a far more dangerous situation, for both Blackjack and everyone else, than if she simply remained vulnerable to the physical hazards of the wasteland.

I too agree with this. Her body may not be in much danger from typical rigors of the wastes, but she is. Her mind and resolve are more vulnerable(and important) than her body is.

[Caoimhe]

...the fuck has been going on here?

[Guest]

...the fuck has been going on here?

In two words: some shit.

[Caoimhe]

It really irks me when people generalize about a whole group like that. Yes, some of them are just saying that to get a rise, and to simply hate because they can, but some of them have legitimate opinions of this and are just voicing their concerns. Disregarding them in their entirety because of a select few, or a bad reputation is just wrong. Just don't be so quick to judge, anyway.

I've said it once, I'll say it again: If they want their opinions taken seriously, they'd post them somewhere that isn't "the internet hate machine" next to posts saying Somber should kill himself.

Sure, I bet I could make great intelligent posts about Project Horizons, but if I post them on a neo-nazi child molester message board, how the hell can I expect them to be taken seriously?

Anyone who can't see how posting on 4chan delegitimizes absolutely anything someone says is dumb as heck. "Whisper of protest in an angry mob," etc.

[Overthepacific]

It really irks me when people generalize about a whole group like that. Yes, some of them are just saying that to get a rise, and to simply hate because they can, but some of them have legitimate opinions of this and are just voicing their concerns. Disregarding them in their entirety because of a select few, or a bad reputation is just wrong. Just don't be so quick to judge, anyway.

I've said it once, I'll say it again: If they want their opinions taken seriously, they'd post them somewhere that isn't "the internet hate machine" next to posts saying Somber should kill himself.

Sure, I bet I could make great intelligent posts about Project Horizons, but if I post them on a neo-nazi child molester message board, how the hell can I expect them to be taken seriously?

Anyone who can't see how posting on 4chan delegitimizes absolutely anything someone says is dumb as heck. "Whisper of protest in an angry mob," etc.

Jesus, that is not even close to the truth. The shitposting in the FoE threads is usually never about PH and it is always the minority by a large margin. And a "neo-nazi child molester" board? /mlp/? Have you ever actually been there? It is a forum, just like this one, with honest opinions, just like this one. There may be a few more ridiculous unintelligible crap posts than here, but discrediting them because of a preconceived notion is just ignorant.

/mlp/ isn't /b/, not by a long shot. All this reverse hatred about their opinions and attempting to ignore it isn't going to get anyone anywhere. You can talk to them on that board the same you can here, but the only difference is they're more likely to tell you what they really think behind that anonymous tag. So I'll say again, disregarding them in their entirety because of a small minority of those you deem "neo-nazi child molesters" or because of a bad reputation is just wrong.

[Ketchup]

Can we just not talk about 4chan? At all? Please? This happens too often.

[Moodyman90]

Can we just not talk about 4chan? At all? Please? This happens too often.

I have to agree. Regardless of intentions, meanings, truths, and perceptions, the mentioning of that site has cause the derailing of this thread.

Can we agree that what is said on any part of 4chan, stays in that section of 4chan and not brought up here, and if anybody here really wants to see what's being said should just go there themselves?

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