Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Overthepacific]

Can we just not talk about 4chan? At all? Please? This happens too often.

Alright, alright. I just dont like it when people start stereotyping and throwing around 4chan as a means to discredit something. We need to argue about the point at hand, not its source.

[SilentCarto]

It's fucking stupidity, in my mind.

I don't even know why the fuck I'm writing this any more.

Well... you know, if you're writing because you want popular acclaim, by all means, just do whatever will make people happy.
If you're writing for yourself, you've gotta decide which pieces of criticism to accept and which ones to reject. Just know that there are so many people reading who don't speak up, and you never hear their praise. Squeaky wheels and grease, and all that.

My suggestion? Rein back the epic battles and set pieces. Have Blackjack's repair talisman malfunction and have to deal with low power availability. Have Blackjack make a choice between EC-1101 and her friends with lasting consequence. Have her alone for a while, with all the relationship problems it will bring. Equally, ignore my ramblings, because I haven't had a lot of sleep.

Set pieces are what make for a good fight scene. Five badguys in a straight corridor without cover is pretty damn boring. And BJ just got back from a big, long loner mission, remember? She doesn't need more of that. She needs to repair the relationship problems she already has.

As for BJ's tactics, it may behoove us to remember she's been a Death Seeker ever since her resurrection. This was, in fact, addressed in-universe. Her tendency to charge into danger isn't a writing flaw, it's a character flaw.

My problem right now is due to getting sick last sunday, mond, tues, finding out I am getting fired weds, finding out I owe taxes on thurdsay, getting a relapse of sick on friday, spending 6 hours fixing 54 saturday, and getting hit by a flat bed truck today and messing up my body and car today. I am more than a bit frazzled atm.

Celestia on a crutch! I... I got nothin'...

[The Holy Tuna]

Set pieces are what make for a good fight scene. Five badguys in a straight corridor without cover is pretty damn boring. And BJ just got back from a big, long loner mission, remember? She doesn't need more of that. She needs to repair the relationship problems she already has.

As for BJ's tactics, it may behoove us to remember she's been a Death Seeker ever since her resurrection. This was, in fact, addressed in-universe. Her tendency to charge into danger isn't a writing flaw, it's a character flaw.

I'm not sure I articulated that correctly. I was referring more to the 'cartoonish' spectacles (a la, back-flipping up stairs to avoid MG fire and the like), and by 'tone down', I intended to say 'more strategy and tactical combat would be nice, instead of Blackjack absorbing bullets with her face'. The rest of your points are valid, though.

[SilentCarto]

Not just any zony.

“Your father is Doctor Propos at the Roam Academy of Sciences and a part of the Caesar’s cabinet.  Your mother is the aunt of a ministry mare.  The suspicions of the ministries are unfortunate but not unreasonable,” he said in his soft, raspy voice.  It made Silver Stripe lean towards him a little.  “However, I am not here on behalf of the ministries.  I am here looking to recruit you for an alternative program of my own.  And, I assure you, I could not care less about your lineage.”

Holy... that one sure didn't sink in the first time around! Silver Stripe is the cousin of one of the Mane Six?! That is, the sister of one of their parents married a zebra?
...huh. I'm gonna have to process that one. The obvious candidate would be Fluttershy's aunt, since that would make a handy contact to pass information to. On the other hoof, Applejack has an awful lot of relatives to choose from. Pinkie and Rarity seem unlikely given their rural origins, but Dash's relatives are a complete unknown. So is Twilight's extended family, but we know Marigold was her cousin, so that's at least one aunt we can scratch off the list as definitely not being married to a zebra.

...the fuck has been going on here?

I love it when comments and avatars synchronize.

I'm not sure I articulated that correctly. I was referring more to the 'cartoonish' spectacles (a la, back-flipping up stairs to avoid MG fire and the like), and by 'tone down', I intended to say 'more strategy and tactical combat would be nice, instead of Blackjack absorbing bullets with her face'. The rest of your points are valid, though.

I'll agree that she needs to relearn to be careful in combat, but I want to see it explicitly happen in the story, not just have BJ suddenly start to take cover and attack from ambush again.

I think I know what you mean about the backflipping and such, in that martial arts isn't really in BJ's wheelhouse, but I have to wonder if you'd have the same opinion of, say, BJ leaping between cars on a moving train, or fistfighting Nazis on the treads of a tank, or having a shootout while hanging from the antennas beneath Shadowbolt Tower. If you're only objecting to "cartoony" stuff like BJ's ultra flipping powers, okay, but unusual fights in exotic locations is kind of a thing.

[The Holy Tuna]

I think I know what you mean about the backflipping and such, in that martial arts isn't really in BJ's wheelhouse, but I have to wonder if you'd have the same opinion of, say, BJ leaping between cars on a moving train, or fistfighting Nazis on the treads of a tank, or having a shootout while hanging from the antennas beneath Shadowbolt Tower. If you're only objecting to "cartoony" stuff like BJ's ultra flipping powers, okay, but unusual fights in exotic locations is kind of a thing.

Its not the acrobatics I have issue with, just how out-of-place it seems. Jumping between train cars and shootouts in awkward locations seem like something Blackjack would do (and has done, I believe), but incredible feats of acrobatics and Nazi battles on armour (unless she falls off at some stage, and the Nazis aren't trying to reincarnate a Hitler-Stalin hybrid) feel like they belong in an anime. Don't get me wrong, I love reading BJ's fights, but the suspension of disbelief is different when comparing something that develops organically (Blackjack walking, weight of Blackjack drops her through floor, Blackjack struggles to get out while fighting [insert enemy here]) to absurdity for the sake of it (Blackjack walking, suddenly Hitlerpony, Blackjack summons the Dragon).

[Leoman]

Hey, can anypony tell me what changed in chapter 54 this time? I don't really want to read it for the third time.

[The Holy Tuna]

Hey, can anypony tell me what changed in chapter 54 this time? I don't really want to read it for the third time.

The second change to the Legate battle was added not too long ago; dig back a few pages and you should find it.

[Kippershy]

It's fucking stupidity, in my mind.

Say or post what you want, I'm entitled to my own opinions regardless of how you perceive them.

[Downloaded Skill]

You're entirely within your rights to have your opinions Kipper, but if you're going to post criticism it still needs to be constructive and detailed. No one would be here if they didn't like the story on some level and the story isn't perfect, but criticism like that is not helpful to Somber at all and just comes off as a giant fuck you.

[Kippershy]

Spoiler:

I'm not doing this because I want to hurt anyone - I don't.
I'm not doing this because I want to cause trouble - I don't.
I'm doing it because it's criticism that otherwise isn't heard here, because it's stuff heard elsewhere plenty but never here, because it's a well made point, regardless of source.

I'm saying it because although I don't think what's already been done should change, I do think we should all put forth our true feelings at all times when on these matters to try help get the best possible outcome.

Is that selfish of me to try affect Sombers work for my own preferences? I don't care if it is or not, the way I see it, I'm giving him my opinion as he would have been asking of it if I had nothing but love to give in response, so, flip of a coin.

[Guest]

@Kipper
Do you think you have not been heard?

[Overthepacific]

This is one of the main issues with cloudsdale, they cannot seem
to look at anything they enjoy under a critical light. "

I'm doing it because it's criticism that otherwise isn't heard here, because it's stuff heard elsewhere plenty but never here, because it's a well made point, regardless of source.

>criticisms not heard here
>Implying I'm not doing anything

It's like nobody wants to play with me.

[WavemasterRyx]

Say or post what you want, I'm entitled to my own opinions regardless of how you perceive them.
---
I'm not doing this because I want to hurt anyone - I don't.
I'm not doing this because I want to cause trouble - I don't.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. What you are not entitled to is endangering Somber's health and well-being, or mine. You may not want to hurt anyone, or cause trouble, but that is exactly what you are doing. I have been badly hurt by all the trouble you are causing, and there is no way you can convince me that you any longer have Somber's or the story's best interests in mind.

[Downloaded Skill]

snip

Now thats what I like to see, a well articulated point that people can discuss.

On a whole I'm inclined to agree with that guy. Seeing as how there are two main focuses of the story, the wasteland as whole and BJ's group. The state of the wasteland is in flux at the moment, which has reduced the focus on group development. I was really interested in seeing how Rampage would change after her revelation at Hightower or Lacunae with the dreams, mental connections, and the Goddess' demise rapidly approaching, but that seems to have fallen out of focus in light of recent events. I wouldn't say that BJ hasn't changed a lot post-33 though. She has calmed down a lot, become more reasonable and somewhat smarter if still lacking in sense. With recent developments though the focus is more on the wasteland than interpersonal interactions which I'm somewhat sad about. The interpersonal and introspection / philosophical moments were my favorite parts.

[Overthepacific]

Spoiler:

But in all seriousness, the whole killing arc thing I can agree with. After the stable, she really shouldn't have the problem that she does now.

DONT READ THIS IF YOU DONT WANT TO SEE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK:

I wouldn't say that BJ hasn't changed a lot post-33 though. She has
calmed down a lot, become more reasonable and somewhat smarter if still
lacking in sense. With recent developments though the focus is more on
the wasteland than interpersonal interactions which I'm somewhat sad
about.

She has changed in a lot of ways, and then stayed the same for too long. Its been more than 20 chapters since thirty three. At this point it doesnt matter if she changed after 33, its more the fact that she hasnt changed much after that and what she changed into. That's where the problem lies.

[Downloaded Skill]

I've been interpreting it as trying to hold on to her last bits of morality. Shes fine with killing people who can fight, but non-combatants really get to her.

[squeak-anon]

Spoiler:

Hello! Sticking my toe in here, never really posted here before. Just stopping by to say I will admit that not ALL of the people here fall under that umbrella. It's more of a statement of a trend I'm noticing in general. Like there's a fear of negative commentary on things we enjoy. This is kind of the opposite to the 4chan mentality which is actually an interesting little juxtaposition. The general 4chan state of mind is thought to be that any positive opinion doesn't carry much weight and that a negative opinion automatically holds more value over a positive one for the sake of being unique. While the general thought of this forum around a few places is that positive opinions are valued higher than the negative so negative opinions are automatically disregarded. Of course neither of these thoughts on either site is true, and both has different sets of values for negative and positive opinions. I think the main section of consternation between the two parties is mostly do to what I've noticed as a general fear about negative commentary, that it will 'Harm' Somber in some way. I was looking here for the first time after Kips posted my argument and I was surprised that one of the first arguments posed against it did not address the argument, but instead went to the idea that my particular opinion on the story was hurting Somber in some way. I don't find this a particularly valid argument against criticism as we cannot simply only point out the good in anything in particular. And I think that this is what breeds the lack of respect and particular interest in your forum, and perhaps the visa-versa if you took the logical criticism (As some of you have done I will point out, nicely done) and responded to them with the praises or personal opinions it might go over better. But it seems both parties have created a hyperboled stereotype of eachother which breeds an unhealthy atmosphere for any kind of logical conversation. I am not trying to injure anyone with my words, I am simply offering my opinion on what I found to be wrong with the story, and in the same thread of conversation I rather started picking out problems with Fallout Equestria as well. I LIKE both these stories and my critisims are in no way intended to injure the pride, or physical being of the writer, simply to offer my opinion as a reader to what he or she has written.

In anycase, back to the depths of radioplay writing for me. Toodles.

-Squeak-anon

[Overthepacific]

They don't even try to figure out what we talk about here; they just think we're all a bunch of sycophants (well... cocksuckers, sycophants is a little too complex a word for their like), only making an exception for snipe and only after he actually left the editor's team. If he was still a part of them, no matter how loud his objections to the direction of the fic, they'd see him as "incapable of looking at things in a critical light".
And since they just make assumptions based on the worse denominator, and we make assumptions right back at them based on their own worst death-worshiping asshole denominator. This is the internet; leave your maturity at the door 'cause turnabout is fair play.

That's the long and short of it, in my eyes. They don't respect us, we don't respect them... really, to get technical, they respect next to nothing, and they get next to no respect back from anywhere. Odd, how that works.

Alright swicked. I came here from /mlp/. I posted there a long time before I ever did here. I always checked this thread for updates and even read along sometimes. Who's to say I'm the only one like this? Maybe they just havent spoken up yet like I did. Not everbody is one side or the other with this.

I dont feel like I embody any of that. Do you? Am I just part of a disrespectful hate machine along with everyone else there? Should you disregard me, or anyone else coming from there just because of a previous forum? Starting a hate war between the two sides isnt getting anywhere.

No two people are the same. Sure some of that image board is lacking in the morality department, but that doesnt mean every single person that posts as anonymous is like that. I agree it would be a lot better if we just didnt reveal where the complaint came from because of this, but some see otherwise.

..oh, and just to come clean, this is the third revision of this post. The first two contained a LOT more profanity. Today was an epically terrible day and I spent most of it learning how much worse the coming days are going to be.

For what its worth, I hope everything gets better for you, and you have my sympathy.

[Overthepacific]

I've been interpreting it as trying to hold on to her last bits of morality. Shes fine with killing people who can fight, but non-combatants really get to her.

Some of that I can see. But its getting to the point where it feels like it really isnt the case anymore.

Spoiler:

[Ketchup]

DONT READ THIS IF YOU DONT WANT TO SEE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK:

Some people see problems where others do not. I like this thing that people do, it can create nice, interesting discussions. I wouldn't call it negative feedback, feedback isn't really "negative" in a sense.

My thinking is that the overarching plot of the story would be to finally get to the bottom of what EC-1101 is. The what-why-when-where-how of it. On the emotional/character development side with the peak being when 99 was gassed, I'd say that it was rather significant in development of how death effects her. But she didn't kill those ponies with her hooves or guns. She pressed a few buttons. She did it for the greater good and knew she was preventing something worse from occurring. And then my train of thought hit a butterfly and I just can't continue. Hmm.
I do in fact see the fighting against Blackjack becoming a cold-hearted killer, trying to find a justification for killing the ponies she does. They'd be trying to kill her, like the Harbingers, or they'd be a threat to the wasteland as a whole, like 99's population. I think that's what's keeping her together.
That probably made no sense at all...

Kipper, this post caused quite an avalanche. Why? The tone is what I believe to be at fault. It looks to me like you were insulting Somber, not giving cohesive feedback. Squeaky put his critique in a more personable manner. There's some brutal honesty on my opinions, for which I apologize in advance for.

Gah, this whole post is probably not going to make any sense.

[Moodyman90]

Well, it's very nice of you to drop by Squeak and happy to have you in the forums, if only for one post or not.

Currently, as in it's very likely to change between my typing and later on, I think the main problem is that most of us here see criticism from 4chan as an attack on Somber. Now, Somber may be a stronger person than we give him credit for, but his self confidence and self worth are nigh nonexistent and writing Project Horizons is one of the few joys in his life he can feel good about.

Now this is an over simplification, generalization, and assumption of 4chan as a whole and I will apologize for that, but since nobody really tries to hide the fact Somber is fragile in those ways, we assume a majority of what comes from 4chan is less constructive criticism and more attacks to try to break Somber down to the point he gives up.

[Downloaded Skill]

I've been interpreting it as trying to hold on to her last bits of morality. Shes fine with killing people who can fight, but non-combatants really get to her.

Some of that I can see. But its getting to the point where it feels like it really isnt the case anymore.

Spoiler:

Personally I find a lot of BJ's decisions questionable. When I wrote up my review of the chapter a while ago I really wanted BJ to pull the trigger on her own volition. I understand her motivations for not wanting to, but I think her inability to really fully comprehend shades of gray and unique situations stems from her lower intelligence and / or wisdom as a character. She doesn't quite grasp implications by herself which works for and against her.

[Mr. Snrub]

they just think we're all a bunch of sycophants (well... cocksuckers, sycophants is a little too complex a word for their like)

I dont think sycophants is used in the correct way here, as you gain no benefits nor favors from a person in a high position from it.

Though i may be wrong.

*Edit* Oh, i see that in english the word lost its originall meaning in comon use. My mistake

[O. Hinds]

@Overthepacific re Blackjack's attitude towards killing:
I'd say that there's an important difference between, to use them as examples, killing 99 and killing that bandit on the bridge. 99, as far as Blackjack was thinking, was a lost cause. Either they died or they went on to kill others; she's not a smart pony, so she didn't even think to look for a third option. Because of this, killing them was basically a battle kill; it's just that the opponent didn't yet fully realize that they were fighting. Killing the bandit on the bridge was an execution; it was a kill in cold blood carried out because of the bandit's past actions and concerns about what he might do. Now, was this justified, given his probability of reform? I'd say that it probably was, but I'm not certain that he wouldn't have turned his life around if he was spared again. There is, in Blackjack's mind, a very significant difference between killing someone to stop whatever they're pretty much certainly going to do from happening (battle kills fall into this category; "shoot or be shot") and a cool-headed execution of someone because of what they have done or might do. I'd argue that these two separate categories, while they may influence each other, each have their own progression.
Oh, it looks like others may have covered some of this. I'm mostly trying to stay out of this discussion.

And then my train of thought hit a butterfly and I just can't continue.

…Okay, I'm curious: does your brain build really flimsy and/or weak trains, or does it contain some very, very large butterflies?

[Downloaded Skill]

I think Ketchup should also elaborate on what gauge his mental trains use. This is very important stuff.

[Ketchup]

@Overthepacific re Blackjack's attitude towards killing:
I'd say that there's an important difference between, to use them as examples, killing 99 and killing that bandit on the bridge. 99, as far as Blackjack was thinking, was a lost cause. Either they died or they went on to kill others; she's not a smart pony, so she didn't even think to look for a third option. Because of this, killing them was basically a battle kill; it's just that the opponent didn't yet fully realize that they were fighting. Killing the bandit on the bridge was an execution; it was a kill in cold blood carried out because of the bandit's past actions and concerns about what he might do. Now, was this justified, given his probability of reform? I'd say that it probably was, but I'm not certain that he wouldn't have turned his life around if he was spared again. There is, in Blackjack's mind, a very significant difference between killing someone to stop whatever they're pretty much certainly going to do from happening (battle kills fall into this category; "shoot or be shot") and a cool-headed execution of someone because of what they have done or might do. I'd argue that these two separate categories, while they may influence each other, each have their own progression.

Pretty much this.

And then my train of thought hit a butterfly and I just can't continue.

…Okay, I'm curious: does your brain build really flimsy and/or weak trains, or does it contain some very, very large butterflies?

It was just a metaphor for losing where I was going with the thought, of course, but I'll play along.
Large butterflies. Very large.

I think Ketchup should also elaborate on what gauge his mental trains use. This is very important stuff.

Oh yeah... that.

[Overthepacific]

@Overthepacific re Blackjack's attitude towards killing:
I'd say that there's an important difference between, to use them as examples, killing 99 and killing that bandit on the bridge. 99, as far as Blackjack was thinking, was a lost cause. Either they died or they went on to kill others; she's not a smart pony, so she didn't even think to look for a third option. Because of this, killing them was basically a battle kill; it's just that the opponent didn't yet fully realize that they were fighting. Killing the bandit on the bridge was an execution; it was a kill in cold blood carried out because of the bandit's past actions and concerns about what he might do. Now, was this justified, given his probability of reform? I'd say that it probably was, but I'm not certain that he wouldn't have turned his life around if he was spared again. There is, in Blackjack's mind, a very significant difference between killing someone to stop whatever they're pretty much certainly going to do from happening (battle kills fall into this category; "shoot or be shot") and a cool-headed execution of someone because of what they have done or might do. I'd argue that these two separate categories, while they may influence each other, each have their own progression.

You have a good point about the separate categories with the killing. But reading this story I try to envision myself in her place. I think of all the family and friends that I lived with my whole life, everyone I ever cared about, and then see them turn into what they did. Having to kill all of them, foals and all, would tear me down to the point where I could understand the want for suicide. But taking this further, I can not see her coming out of this with a semblance of mercy towards a rapist raider after doing something like that. At a certain point the reasons for doing it fade out, and desensitization causes bitterness and hate about these kinds of things. But instead, she recovers rather quickly after what happened with spike and only brings it up again when shes having a pity party.

I know that characters dont have to follow a strict guidline of does and donts, but blackjack getting like this over killing after having to do that? It just doesnt seem to follow. One event doesnt seem to get to her enough, while the others get to her too much.

[O. Hinds]

And then my train of thought hit a butterfly and I just can't continue.

…Okay, I'm curious: does your brain build really flimsy and/or weak trains, or does it contain some very, very large butterflies?

It was just a metaphor for losing where I was going with the thought, of course, but I'll play along.
Large butterflies. Very large.

I think Ketchup should also elaborate on what gauge his mental trains use. This is very important stuff.

Oh yeah... that.

:)

@Overthepacific re Blackjack's attitude towards killing:
I'd say that there's an important difference between, to use them as examples, killing 99 and killing that bandit on the bridge. 99, as far as Blackjack was thinking, was a lost cause. Either they died or they went on to kill others; she's not a smart pony, so she didn't even think to look for a third option. Because of this, killing them was basically a battle kill; it's just that the opponent didn't yet fully realize that they were fighting. Killing the bandit on the bridge was an execution; it was a kill in cold blood carried out because of the bandit's past actions and concerns about what he might do. Now, was this justified, given his probability of reform? I'd say that it probably was, but I'm not certain that he wouldn't have turned his life around if he was spared again. There is, in Blackjack's mind, a very significant difference between killing someone to stop whatever they're pretty much certainly going to do from happening (battle kills fall into this category; "shoot or be shot") and a cool-headed execution of someone because of what they have done or might do. I'd argue that these two separate categories, while they may influence each other, each have their own progression.

You have a good point about the separate categories with the killing. But reading this story I try to envision myself in her place. I think of all the family and friends that I lived with my whole life, everyone I ever cared about, and then see them turn into what they did. Having to kill all of them, foals and all, would tear me down to the point where I could understand the want for suicide. But taking this further, I can not see her coming out of this with a semblance of mercy towards a rapist raider after doing something like that. At a certain point the reasons for doing it fade out, and desensitization causes bitterness and hate about these kinds of things. But instead, she recovers rather quickly after what happened with spike and only brings it up again when shes having a pity party.

I know that characters dont have to follow a strict guidline of does and donts, but blackjack getting like this over killing after having to do that? It just doesnt seem to follow. One event doesnt seem to get to her enough, while the others get to her too much.

You're using yourself as a metric for this? It could be that Blackjack just has a different personality than you; different people may have easier or harder times dealing with certain things, after all.

[Overthepacific]

Uh... what I said to Hinds.

Personally I find a lot of BJ's decisions
questionable. When I wrote up my review of the chapter a while ago I
really wanted BJ to pull the trigger on her own volition. I understand
her motivations for not wanting to, but I think her inability to really
fully comprehend shades of gray and unique situations stems from her
lower intelligence and / or wisdom as a character. She doesn't quite
grasp implications by herself which works for and against her.

I
really think her intelligence doesnt really have a whole lot to do with
it. Her erratic behavior over the issue isnt really justified by this, a
less intelligent pony would not have reacted like that if you ask me.
And I do believe shes a lot smarter than she gives herself credit for.

4chan is not here; there are no individuals, the dominant opinion rules.
If they were mostly like you, you'd have a point, but they are mostly like them, and you are not.

So
I can and will treat them as a singular entity until the voices sort
themselves out and decide to stand behind their words.

From
an overview perspective, yeah, thatd be right. But there are those who
enjoy the story who still post there, albiet less frequently, since
others seem to want to argue against that. The same way it is here with
the other way around. They're all still individuals, you just cant talk to them in the same way you can here.

Honestly,
4chan doesnt care. /mlp/ doesnt care. And half of the FoE thread doesnt
care. It isnt even a strong point of discussion right now really.
Kippershy is the one you should be talking to more directly about this.
He posted his opinion, and some of squeaks. Arguing against his point
instead of its source would probably be a better course of action.

[Overthepacific]

You're using yourself as a metric for this? It could be that Blackjack just has a different personality than you; different people may have easier or harder times dealing with certain things, after all.

She does have a different personality. Maybe I didnt really word that correctly. I'm more trying to use blackjack as a metric for me. Putting myself in her shoes, to try to understand it. But after trying to understand her after that, I just cant. It really doesnt follow for the situation.

Her having an easier time dealing with her stable and having a harder time killing a rapist she already gave a second chance? That really doesnt make sense to me at all.

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