Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Icy Shake]

And then my train of thought hit a butterfly and I just can't continue.

…Okay, I'm curious: does your brain build really flimsy and/or weak trains, or does it contain some very, very large butterflies?

It was just a metaphor for losing where I was going with the thought, of course, but I'll play along.
Large butterflies. Very large.

I think Ketchup should also elaborate on what gauge his mental trains use. This is very important stuff.

Oh yeah... that.

:)

/)

@Overthepacific re Blackjack's attitude towards killing:
I'd say that there's an important difference between, to use them as examples, killing 99 and killing that bandit on the bridge. 99, as far as Blackjack was thinking, was a lost cause. Either they died or they went on to kill others; she's not a smart pony, so she didn't even think to look for a third option. Because of this, killing them was basically a battle kill; it's just that the opponent didn't yet fully realize that they were fighting. Killing the bandit on the bridge was an execution; it was a kill in cold blood carried out because of the bandit's past actions and concerns about what he might do. Now, was this justified, given his probability of reform? I'd say that it probably was, but I'm not certain that he wouldn't have turned his life around if he was spared again. There is, in Blackjack's mind, a very significant difference between killing someone to stop whatever they're pretty much certainly going to do from happening (battle kills fall into this category; "shoot or be shot") and a cool-headed execution of someone because of what they have done or might do. I'd argue that these two separate categories, while they may influence each other, each have their own progression.

You have a good point about the separate categories with the killing. But reading this story I try to envision myself in her place. I think of all the family and friends that I lived with my whole life, everyone I ever cared about, and then see them turn into what they did. Having to kill all of them, foals and all, would tear me down to the point where I could understand the want for suicide. But taking this further, I can not see her coming out of this with a semblance of mercy towards a rapist raider after doing something like that. At a certain point the reasons for doing it fade out, and desensitization causes bitterness and hate about these kinds of things. But instead, she recovers rather quickly after what happened with spike and only brings it up again when shes having a pity party.

I know that characters dont have to follow a strict guidline of does and donts, but blackjack getting like this over killing after having to do that? It just doesnt seem to follow. One event doesnt seem to get to her enough, while the others get to her too much.

You're using yourself as a metric for this? It could be that Blackjack just has a different personality than you; different people may have easier or harder times dealing with certain things, after all.

I entirely agree with your original point, but would add that early on, Blackjack actively took joy in killing raiders. I don't quite get that feeling anymore. And as you say, there are multiple ways to react to things. I personally think that another entirely reasonable and consistent reaction would be to have an increased desire not to kill when possible—that she would, having looked into the abyss, wish to retreat rather than jump in. And one of the key points is that even so, Blackjack feels the need to actively fight against losing herself and becoming a killing machine. That thread hasn't been lost at all.

(Edit: This doesn't have much to do with the preceding paragraph, so much as earlier comments.) What's more, from my perspective, there has been plenty of development of Blackjack since "Black," if perhaps at a lower density than I would have preferred. We've had the rising frenzy from sleep deprivation and separation from her consciences, the events of "Lucidity," the Stygius arc and its fallout, her ongoing relationship with Deus, her interactions with Glory's mother, the rising influence of the Goddess and the Psalm dreams, and the role-reversal with Rampage as major character points that I can think of off the top of my head.

Now, one can say that the plot is taking too long to develop, or one can say that there's been too little character development, but holding both just doesn't work unless one thinks that the plot just needs to be pared down. That's a defensible stance, but one that doesn't—in my opinion—represent a workable option for future work outside of either a full-scale rewrite or a rushed, disappointing anticlimax à la Fallout: Equestria.

[Ketchup]

Uh... what I said to Hinds.

Hinds had better words than I did.

Anyway, I'm thinking that Blackjack's social position in 99 contributes to how she reacts to the gassing. She didn't really have any friends, and her mother was already dead. Rivets wasn't really her friend, either. Way I remember it, ponies in Stable Security weren't very popular. She didn't have many people to care about on the personal level.
It's hard to imagine just how that would feel, though.

The fact that it usually only resurfaces when she's having her pity parties isn't unrealistic to me. I do the same thing with stuff I'd rather not remember when I'm at my lowest.

Hope that makes enough sense.

[Overthepacific]

I entirely agree with your original point, but would add that early on, Blackjack actively took joy in killing raiders. I don't quite get that feeling anymore. And as you say, there are multiple ways to react to things. I personally think that another entirely reasonable and consistent reaction would be to have an increased desire not to kill when possible—that she would, having looked into the abyss, wish to retreat rather than jump in. And one of the key points is that even so, Blackjack feels the need to actively fight against losing herself and becoming a killing machine. That thread hasn't been lost at all.

I can see her going the route of not wanting to kill but I already went over this once.

Would it have been the same situation if he had come at her guns
blazing? I cant see her just outright killing him as she is now without
going through another sob story moment about it, really. But shes fine
with killing all of these enclave personal that have families and
friends waiting for them back home, just because they are trying to
fight back.

I dont know, the logic behind her problem with killing and then the subsequent lack thereof doesnt make sense to me either.

Just because the situation is different changes the act for her? I dont like that reasoning at all.

What's more, from my perspective, there has been plenty of development of Blackjack since "Black," if perhaps at a lower density than I would have preferred. We've had the rising frenzy from sleep deprivation and separation from her consciences, the events of "Lucidity," the Stygius arc and its fallout, her ongoing relationship with Deus, her interactions with Glory's mother, the rising influence of the Goddess and the Psalm dreams, and the role-reversal with Rampage as major character points that I can think of off the top of my head.

I dont feel like development in the wrong direction is all that important. A lot of those things felt like filler and putting off what could be a good opportunity for something important.

Now, one can say that the plot is taking too long to develop, or one can say that there's been too little character development, but holding both just doesn't work unless one thinks that the plot just needs to be pared down. That's a defensible stance, but one that doesn't—in my opinion—represent a workable option for future work outside of either a full-scale rewrite or a rushed, disappointing anticlimax à la Fallout: Equestria.

There a lot of ways the story can be fixed. How it actually will be is a mystery. Right now future chapters are what I'm looking forward to, but a future rewrite of parts after the story is finished wouldnt be all that bad either. But in the end I'm just here to voice my opinion and hope somebody considers it, not to directly force a change onto it.

[Icy Shake]

You're using yourself as a metric for this? It could be that Blackjack just has a different personality than you; different people may have easier or harder times dealing with certain things, after all.

She does have a different personality. Maybe I didnt really word that correctly. I'm more trying to use blackjack as a metric for me. Putting myself in her shoes, to try to understand it. But after trying to understand her after that, I just cant. It really doesnt follow for the situation.

Her having an easier time dealing with her stable and having a harder time killing a rapist she already gave a second chance? That really doesnt make sense to me at all.

Try this: Blackjack really, really needs for ponies, as a rule, to be basically good, with hope of becoming better people if given the chance. She thinks (perhaps) that if this isn't true in general, it can't be true for her—and she hates who she is and was, more than she can bear much of the time—while also noting that it seems like just maybe she's less evil than she once was, so probably others can make that change as well. And that's where the difference in situation can come in: with 99, it's unfortunate, but they were in the process of becoming something less than ponies, with no hope of redemption before they would do irreparable harm; her rapist, on the other hand, is just a guy who could make the right decision if scared straight.

[Overthepacific]

Anyway, I'm thinking that Blackjack's social position in 99 contributes to how she reacts to the gassing. She didn't really have any friends, and her mother was already dead. Rivets wasn't really her friend, either. Way I remember it, ponies in Stable Security weren't very popular. She didn't have many people to care about on the personal level.
It's hard to imagine just how that would feel, though.

The fact that it usually only resurfaces when she's having her pity parties isn't unrealistic to me. I do the same thing with stuff I'd rather not remember when I'm at my lowest.

Spoiler:

I've never been through something like that, but I find it extremely unrealistic that after that, something that traumatic, is only ever brought up in pity parties again. It's just such a major thing to go through to just go along with without some serious flurries of emotion and build up of hate or fear.

[Icy Shake]

Anyway, I'm thinking that Blackjack's social position in 99 contributes to how she reacts to the gassing. She didn't really have any friends, and her mother was already dead. Rivets wasn't really her friend, either. Way I remember it, ponies in Stable Security weren't very popular. She didn't have many people to care about on the personal level.
It's hard to imagine just how that would feel, though.

The fact that it usually only resurfaces when she's having her pity parties isn't unrealistic to me. I do the same thing with stuff I'd rather not remember when I'm at my lowest.

Spoiler:

I've never been through something like that, but I find it extremely unrealistic that after that, something that traumatic, is only ever brought up in pity parties again. It's just such a major thing to go through to just go along with without some serious flurries of emotion and build up of hate or fear.

Or sadness, regret, and determination that you never do anything like that again if you can possibly avoid it. Or both. Or neither, for that matter, if you happen to (already) be a sociopath, or just out of your mind.

And it's worth noting that Stable 99 was presented as very consistent, with one day like any other, and all efforts spent on keeping the stable from failing. And who knows—maybe, just a little, Blackjack ended up thinking to herself "So this is how we failed."

[Overthepacific]

Try this: Blackjack really, really needs for ponies, as a rule, to be basically good, with hope of becoming better people if given the chance. She thinks (perhaps) that if this isn't true in general, it can't be true for her—and she hates who she is and was, more than she can bear much of the time—while also noting that it seems like just maybe she's less evil than she once was, so probably others can make that change as well. And that's where the difference in situation can come in: with 99, it's unfortunate, but they were in the process of becoming something less than ponies, with no hope of redemption before they would do irreparable harm; her rapist, on the other hand, is just a guy who could make the right decision if scared straight.

But them picking up a gun and shooting in her general direction changes that? And they already did that with clink once, obviously it didnt work, he wasn't going to make the right decision again, and I'm sure she knew that.

Her sporadic willingness to kill is what I have a problem with. If she just never wanted to kill anything again, I could almost understand that, but it would make for a much less interesting story. At the point where she is at now, her actions really dont seem to follow correctly anymore.

[Overthepacific]

Or sadness, regret, and determination that you never do anything like that again if you can possibly avoid it. Or both. Or neither, for that matter, if you happen to (already) be a sociopath, or just out of your mind.

The point is that right now, it isnt a major point of regret for her, or she is more focused on her current affairs to be concerned about. Which is a problem right there. Some things you just dont forget about.

And it's worth noting that Stable 99 was presented as very consistent, with one day like any other, and all efforts spent on keeping the stable from failing. And who knows—maybe, just a little, Blackjack ended up thinking to herself "So this is how we failed."

I wasnt there for every day of her life or for every friend she did or didnt make, so theres really no telling beyond assumptions from her last days in there.

[Icy Shake]

Well, she doesn't want her friends to die, either, and has a pretty long history of trying to let enemies live, once they stop being an immediate threat. I don't see the contradiction, myself. And I'm not sure why you would expect particularly good consistency or logicality from a manic depressive who is under constant stimuli from a number of different directions, and who has only really started thinking for herself in the last few weeks.

As for the presence of Stable 99 in her mind at any given moment, I think it's necessarily sort of folded into a more general gestalt of her experiences since the beginning of Horizons: I think it's reasonable for her to latch on more to Boing, the FMC kids, and Scoodle—or at least I can't fault her for doing so—and in any case, the pacing would grind to a halt every time she thought back on things she regretted if she went through a 1000-plus-word litany outlining each instance. After all, those come up pretty much every chapter, at least once.

[Caoimhe]

I don't understand how some can question Blackjack's intelligence on some of her reactions. This has no bearing on her intelligence. She's an unreliable narrator for one, but more importantly - she's mentally ill. She has crippling PTSD and emotional problems and it's extremely self evident to everyone around her. It's half the reason why everyone fears her to some extent. Mentally ill people can be unpredictable and irrational and it is no reflection on Blackjack's intelligence.

Her low self esteem is also why she is dangerously protective of her friends because she surrounds herself with others with almost haphazard loyality to compensate for her lack of self worth. She also strives to find redemption in every enemy because that's what she wants for herself. She sees herself as evil and wants to find her own good but is powerless to help herself in her mind.

[Icy Shake]

Or sadness, regret, and determination that you never do anything like that again if you can possibly avoid it. Or both. Or neither, for that matter, if you happen to (already) be a sociopath, or just out of your mind.

The point is that right now, it isnt a major point of regret for her, or she is more focused on her current affairs to be concerned about. Which is a problem right there. Some things you just dont forget about.

And it's worth noting that Stable 99 was presented as very consistent, with one day like any other, and all efforts spent on keeping the stable from failing. And who knows—maybe, just a little, Blackjack ended up thinking to herself "So this is how we failed."

I wasnt there for every day of her life or for every friend she did or didnt make, so theres really no telling beyond assumptions from her last days in there.

War. War never changes. It had consumed our home, a war fought by foreign aggressors until great and terrible magics had been unleashed to burn all the world to ash and dust. Only our constant devotion to the Princesses had carried us through that terrible war, just as our unwavering faith in the Overmare maintained our continued survival within the earth. Trust in the Overmare; obey the Overmare.
The grating buzz of my alarm yanked me away from sleep. I stuck my left foreleg out from under the blankets, away from my head, felt around for the end table next to the bed, found it, and proceeded to whack my PipBuck against the tabletop until the right button was hit and the noise stopped. I groaned and smacked my lips, tasting the sour gunk in my mouth before rolling onto my back and huffing softly, “Good morning, Blackjack. Welcome to another thrilling day in Stable 99.” I half crawled, half rolled, half fell out of bed and gave myself a vigorous shake. Life in Stable 99 was routine, with any deviation punishable by the security mares. I had half an hour to wash, half an hour to eat, and an hour to report to my duty station. The same as it had been every day since I’d gotten my cutie mark.

Any wonder I tried to stay out of this place? There was also the fact that most ponies refused to look at me. They’d drop their conversations, look aside, or leave. It didn’t matter that I tried to be nice; the fact was that all I had to do was drop a name and they’d be hauled in for interrogations. I’d witnessed enough to know I didn’t want to drop a name… besides, I’d already tried it once. Never worked for the ponies who deserved it.

Et cetera. We may have to make some assumptions, but the vision given us is one in which her colleagues hold her in contempt, her mother finds her a disappointment, the management is despotic, and most people just wish she wasn't there.

[Overthepacific]

Well, she doesn't want her friends to die, either, and has a pretty long history of trying to let enemies live, once they stop being an immediate threat. I don't see the contradiction, myself. And I'm not sure why you would expect particularly good consistency or logicality from a manic depressive who is under constant stimuli from a number of different directions, and who has only really started thinking for herself in the last few weeks.

If this were realistic emotion wise, half of the characters would be suffering from severe PTSD and most likely be dead one way or another. And she has really only been out there for like 2 months? I dont particularly want good consistency from her in that way as much as I want to stop seeing her act this way towards every other enemy during every chapter. I understood the first couple of times, but its getting old.

As for the presence of Stable 99 in her mind at any given moment, I think it's necessarily sort of folded into a more general gestalt of her experiences since the beginning of Horizons: I think it's reasonable for her to latch on more to Boing, the FMC kids, and Scoodle—or at least I can't fault her for doing so—and in any case, the pacing would grind to a halt every time she thought back on things she regretted if she went through a 1000-plus-word litany outlining each instance. After all, those come up pretty much every chapter, at least once.

Which is why I really wish she turned it into hateful anger against her enemies and became a more violent character. That way we have a stronger, more understandable reaction from all of it, and much less of the self hatred tangents that just turn it into an annoying part I'd rather skip. That outcome of blackjack is just my personal preference though, I can see it going other ways, but the current one I dont really understand.

I'm not the only one who is really getting tired of these regret and angst tangents, am I?

[Icy Shake]

I don't understand how some can question Blackjack's intelligence on some of her reactions. This has no bearing on her intelligence. She's an unreliable narrator for one, but more importantly - she's mentally ill. She has crippling PTSD and emotional problems and it's extremely self evident to everyone around her. It's half the reason why everyone fears her to some extent. Mentally ill people can be unpredictable and irrational and it is no reflection on Blackjack's intelligence.

Her low self esteem is also why she is dangerously protective of her friends because she surrounds herself with others with almost haphazard loyality to compensate for her lack of self worth. She also strives to find redemption in every enemy because that's what she wants for herself. She sees herself as evil and wants to find her own good but is powerless to help herself in her mind.

I completely agree, especially with the boldfaced part. But I also think that her lack of experience in making moral decisions plays a role: perhaps less now than in the past, she has always had a weakness for letting others decide what's right and what's wrong ("If it's red, it's dead; if it's yellow, be mellow" isn't far in her past, nor is (trying to) leave the ethical thinking to P-21).

[Ketchup]

I don't have much to add to this conversation that hasn't been said. Back to the ceiling I go.

[Overthepacific]

Et cetera. We may have to make some assumptions, but the vision given us is one in which her colleagues hold her in contempt, her mother finds her a disappointment, the management is despotic, and most people just wish she wasn't there.

Well, the version I always reread had the original first chapters on it. And I feel like when she returned to the stable, they didnt quite hate her the same way.

Anyway, all of that is really beside the point. She didn't hate them, and by the time she had 'rescued' them from that incident, they werent on all that bad of terms, sure they wanted them to leave, but blackjack still had respect for them, and certainly didnt want to end up having to kill the ponies she knew all her life. Lifelong contempt or not, she wanted to stay in there and die with them for a reason.

[O. Hinds]

I don't understand how some can question Blackjack's intelligence on some of her reactions. This has no bearing on her intelligence. She's an unreliable narrator for one, but more importantly - she's mentally ill. She has crippling PTSD and emotional problems and it's extremely self evident to everyone around her. It's half the reason why everyone fears her to some extent. Mentally ill people can be unpredictable and irrational and it is no reflection on Blackjack's intelligence.

Her low self esteem is also why she is dangerously protective of her friends because she surrounds herself with others with almost haphazard loyality to compensate for her lack of self worth. She also strives to find redemption in every enemy because that's what she wants for herself. She sees herself as evil and wants to find her own good but is powerless to help herself in her mind.

...Hm. I never thought of it like that before; thanks.

[Overthepacific]

Her low self esteem is also why she is dangerously protective of her friends because she surrounds herself with others with almost haphazard loyality to compensate for her lack of self worth. She also strives to find redemption in every enemy because that's what she wants for herself. She sees herself as evil and wants to find her own good but is powerless to help herself in her mind.

Thats a good point. But it isnt quite as cut and dry as that. Like the manticore leader, or whatever that was. She was just glad to try to kill it because it didnt have a sob story that she could relate to and give her sympathy for. She definitely didnt try to live by the redemption code with that one. Like just about anyone with a moral code, she may think she wants to live by it, but doesnt actually hold true to it, which really isnt a point in the story we need right now.

[Icy Shake]

Well, she doesn't want her friends to die, either, and has a pretty long history of trying to let enemies live, once they stop being an immediate threat. I don't see the contradiction, myself. And I'm not sure why you would expect particularly good consistency or logicality from a manic depressive who is under constant stimuli from a number of different directions, and who has only really started thinking for herself in the last few weeks.

If this were realistic emotion wise, half of the characters would be suffering from severe PTSD and most likely be dead one way or another. And she has really only been out there for like 2 months? I dont particularly want good consistency from her in that way as much as I want to stop seeing her act this way towards every other enemy during every chapter. I understood the first couple of times, but its getting old.

Just like everyone else in the wasteland. This is something that I view as a necessary point of divergence between our world and theirs: the stories, and the setting, just don't work if you expect complete fidelity to first-world human standards.

As for the presence of Stable 99 in her mind at any given moment, I think it's necessarily sort of folded into a more general gestalt of her experiences since the beginning of Horizons: I think it's reasonable for her to latch on more to Boing, the FMC kids, and Scoodle—or at least I can't fault her for doing so—and in any case, the pacing would grind to a halt every time she thought back on things she regretted if she went through a 1000-plus-word litany outlining each instance. After all, those come up pretty much every chapter, at least once.

Which is why I really wish she turned it into hateful anger against her enemies and became a more violent character. That way we have a stronger, more understandable reaction from all of it, and much less of the self hatred tangents that just turn it into an annoying part I'd rather skip. That outcome of blackjack is just my personal preference though, I can see it going other ways, but the current one I dont really understand.

I'm not the only one who is really getting tired of these regret and angst tangents, am I?

Well, as you say, that's a matter of taste. I personally like the way Blackjack is written, for the most part, and I don't find the regret-and-angst tangents to be disruptive or distasteful. Now, I do find Blackjack's reluctance to kill frustrating at times—but that's part of why I like her. I get the impression her friends feel the same way. Collectively, they are frustrated by her merciful streak, while also respecting her for trying to live by her principles and make the world a better place while leaving as many people to enjoy and improve it as possible. For some, they feel both at the same time. And so do I: there are many moments when I wish she would give up and kill someone who needed to be killed, but I also want her to be a better, stronger person than I would be. And I think that part of that entails her living as though she's already in the world as she wants it to be, one where people can be given second (or third) chances and improve themselves for it. I don't think that I would enjoy the story as much if she were going down the darker path.

[Moodyman90]

It's like a saying my dad, a recovering alcoholic, has. "I'd rather have mercy then justice."

I'd probably be more tired about the regret and angst if not for the fact I know people who do the same thing. And it's not something they can just "stop and get over", it's a real physiological problem they need help with or else they get self destructive.
Best way to help them is for people to be there for them in various ways. Much like a child they need people to be a "pillow", be there to comfort them, help them feel better, and catch them when they fall, and people to be a "hammer" call them out when they do wrong, deal out fair not harsh punishment when they go to far, and deal with them in a firm manner.


Sorry I think I went off topic.

[Guest]

Odd, how that works.

*waltzes in*
The way that works is called anarchy and nihilism in practice! :D
*waltzes out*

@Speaking one's mind with recognition of consequences of actions
It's an important part of community, communication. So is thinking about what you're going to say before you say it, and how it will make the person you're saying it to feel. There's been some sentiment lately that you should blame the person who feels badly due to your actions for being weak, but I think that's horseshit (and a weak, pathetic version of fascism for the weak and pathetic to boot).

@Respect and trust
I don't think it's too bloody hard to earn mine, and it's hard to lose once you've got it. I doubt the community and culture of /mlp/ will ever do the former - not that it, as a collective, is interested in doing so - but individual members certainly can.

[Overthepacific]

Just like everyone else in the wasteland. This is something that I view as a necessary point of divergence between our world and theirs: the stories, and the setting, just don't work if you expect complete fidelity to first-world human standards.

Yeah, they dont, thats why I didnt. If I did, this would be the absolute least of my complaints.

Well, as you say, that's a matter of taste. I personally like the way Blackjack is written, for the most part, and I don't find the regret-and-angst tangents to be disruptive or distasteful. Now, I do find Blackjack's reluctance to kill frustrating at times—but that's part of why I like her. I get the impression her friends feel the same way. Collectively, they are frustrated by her merciful streak, while also respecting her for trying to live by her principles and make the world a better place while leaving as many people to enjoy and improve it as possible. For some, they feel both at the same time. And so do I: there are many moments when I wish she would give up and kill someone who needed to be killed, but I also want her to be a better, stronger person than I would be. And I think that part of that entails her living as though she's already in the world as she wants it to be, one where people can be given second (or third) chances and improve themselves for it. I don't think that I would enjoy the story as much if she were going down the darker path.

Her tangents and reluctance are subtracting from what she should actually be concerned about. Not wanting to go back to the original complaints that I brought up like a month ago, but its really making her predictable, and a less enjoyable character. This conflict arises too much, and I really cant say I care for it anymore. If this happened once or twice, okay, whatever. But this is a reoccurring theme that just does not make the story any better at all.

[Icy Shake]

Her low self esteem is also why she is dangerously protective of her friends because she surrounds herself with others with almost haphazard loyality to compensate for her lack of self worth. She also strives to find redemption in every enemy because that's what she wants for herself. She sees herself as evil and wants to find her own good but is powerless to help herself in her mind.

Thats a good point. But it isnt quite as cut and dry as that. Like the manticore leader, or whatever that was. She was just glad to try to kill it because it didnt have a sob story that she could relate to and give her sympathy for. She definitely didnt try to live by the redemption code with that one. Like just about anyone with a moral code, she may think she wants to live by it, but doesnt actually hold true to it, which really isnt a point in the story we need right now.

“You’ve killed so damn many of my lovers and pets. I’m going to feed you to them, clone you, and feed you to them again,” she swore as her lips spread wide, showing her dozens of sharp and pointy teeth. How could it be that the undying cyberpony who blows up was easier to kill than the idiot who screwed beasts? “Mmmm… the Blackjack diet. Somehow, that’ll make this all better.”
“Be careful. I bet I taste like regret and failure,” I muttered as I looked around. “You know, I have to wonder just what has to break in a mare to fuck her up as much as you.” Think, Blackjack, think!
“Ohhh… I could make up some sort of sob story for you, but the fact is that this is the way I am, and I like it. Now quit stalling and start dying!” she growled, baring her fangs.

This doesn't sound like someone who's interested in making a change, and she's fighting the whole time until she's mortally wounded. So I'm not sure that really works. Also,

“Sanguine… can fix… please… don’t wanna die…” she whimpered at me and swallowed hard. “I’m sorry I’ve been a bad pony,” she gasped as she shook on the table.

I couldn’t say a word, given my throat was still slowly knitting back together. At least I could breathe... kinda. The huge manticore returned, and I backed away as it gave a low snarl. Rampage was back on her hooves, but she still looked like half the bones in her body were in the process of healing. The immense beast scooped up Brass in his paws with incredible care, cradling her in his forelegs as he gave a soft chirring sound and nudged her with his broad leonine nose.

She lifted her remaining forelimb and stroked his uninjured cheek. “You big baby…” she rasped as the manticore started to lick her wounded face and mane. She licked back once, then finally closed her eye and went still.

“Let’s go, Blackjack,” P-21 said as he heaved my bloody body across his back and struggled to carry me up the heap of debris to the shattered observation window. The lights began to turn off, and the clicking machines stilled. Boo shook as she followed, keeping her distance from all of us; I couldn’t blame her, with me in this state.
We were well down the hall when the huge manticore let out a long and mournful cry I wouldn’t ever forget.

Sure, this isn't one of her kills she brings up much, but it doesn't sound like she left very happy about it either.

Her tangents and reluctance are subtracting from what she should actually be concerned about. Not wanting to go back to the original complaints that I brought up like a month ago, but its really making her predictable, and a less enjoyable character. This conflict arises too much, and I really cant say I care for it anymore. If this happened once or twice, okay, whatever. But this is a reoccurring theme that just does not make the story any better at all.

Well, what you see as something other than what we should be concerned about, I (and likely at least some others) see as one of the core conflicts—and yes, themes—of the narrative. One of its key aspects is that it's something she must face over and over and over again; always knowing that the next instance probably won't be even a day away; always knowing that if she lets herself cross the line, she might never go back; always wondering if this will be the time she's better of just dying rather than becoming what she most fears and loathes about herself and what she may need to become.

[Icy Shake]

@Speaking one's mind with recognition of consequences of actions
It's an important part of community, communication. So is thinking about what you're going to say before you say it, and how it will make the person you're saying it to feel. There's been some sentiment lately that you should blame the person who feels badly due to your actions for being weak, but I think that's horseshit (and a weak, pathetic version of fascism for the weak and pathetic to boot).

@Respect and trust
I don't think it's too bloody hard to earn mine, and it's hard to lose once you've got it. I doubt the community and culture of /mlp/ will ever do the former - not that it, as a collective, is interested in doing so - but individual members certainly can.

Let me preface this by saying that my personal interactions with 4chan have been rare, intermittent, and basically positive, and I don't want to judge a whole community based on secondhand accounts of a part of it. But I think this has become a problem—and I'm not singling OAC out for this (I actually agree wholeheartedly with his points on communication): I'm just using his post as a point to dive in—and we need to do something about it.

Rules
We have just a few simple rules here.

1. Don't put down Somber.
   
2. Project Horizons is a grimdark fic which deals with adult topics, so we might discuss subjects that some readers may find uncomfortable. Be mature about it.
   
3. If Somber or a member of the editing team says to end a discussion, please do so.
   
4. Spoilers abound. If you're not current on the fic, we recommend that you catch up before you read on.
   
5. Expect random discussions that may or may not have anything to do with the story.
   
6. Have fun!

and if I put the others at risk or injure them significantly then BJ gets to angst.

And if you recall, when I TRIED to do that, we ended up with DBZebra.

So please... just... stop. I can take being a failure. My life is a practice in failure. I'm quite good at it. I don't need it rubbed in my face by you and 4chan.

Try this Kippershy: If I ever want to know what 4chan thinks of my story, I'll go there myself. Right now, what 4chan wants is going to kill my story and me. I write to live. It gives me something to hang on to.

Oh, and please tell them I was fired for the same reason PH sucks: I am as shitty a teacher as I am as shitty a writer.

(And just recently Ryx has expressed similar feelings of personal hurt.)

So, I basically think that 4chan, as a topic of discussion and as a source of (at least) unfiltered, attributed criticism may already be pushing the thread rules. As Somber says, if he wants 4chan's input, he can go there himself.

[Overthepacific]

This doesn't sound like someone who's interested in making a change, and she's fighting the whole time until she's mortally wounded. So I'm not sure that really works. Also,

So if she can justify it she doesnt have to live by her code? If you say so.

Sure, this isn't one of her kills she brings up much, but it doesn't sound like she left very happy about it either.

She really didnt seem all that distraught about it either, considering her situation.

Well, what you see as something other than what we should be concerned about, I (and likely at least some others) see as one of the core conflicts—and yes, themes—of the narrative. One of its key aspects is that it's something she must face over and over and over again; always knowing that the next instance probably won't be even a day away; always knowing that if she lets herself cross the line, she might never go back; always wondering if this will be the time she's better of just dying rather than becoming what she most fears and loathes about herself and what she may need to become.

The problem is that it is getting old. You can only pull that card so many times before people get tired of it and want things to change. This is a perfect example of an element of the story that turned from a good, understandable plot point, to another addition to the pile of monotony that is getting to be a hassle to read through. If I wanted to know about the same drama week after week, I'd go back to high school. I want to read this story to get excited and surprised about what might come next, not to read the same things over in different situations in every chapter.

[Guest]

@Icy Shake
Fair enough; I'm glad to drop it like it's hot.

(BTW: When I said "there's been some sentiment lately..." that was absolutely not directed at anyone who has posted here - frankly, I haven't seen it appear here at all - and more at a trend I've observed in popular and internet culture lately)

[Icy Shake]

This doesn't sound like someone who's interested in making a change, and she's fighting the whole time until she's mortally wounded. So I'm not sure that really works. Also,

So if she can justify it she doesnt have to live by her code? If you say so.

Well, given that I don't think that it conflicted—at all—with her code, which as far as I can tell doesn't proscribe killing ponies trying to kill her, her friends, or innocents, I can't answer that question.

Sure, this isn't one of her kills she brings up much, but it doesn't sound like she left very happy about it either.

She really didnt seem all that distraught about it either, considering her situation.

No, but I thought she seemed pretty sympathetic, and I'm not sure how much more could be asked of her, considering the situation.

Well, what you see as something other than what we should be concerned about, I (and likely at least some others) see as one of the core conflicts—and yes, themes—of the narrative. One of its key aspects is that it's something she must face over and over and over again; always knowing that the next instance probably won't be even a day away; always knowing that if she lets herself cross the line, she might never go back; always wondering if this will be the time she's better of just dying rather than becoming what she most fears and loathes about herself and what she may need to become.

The problem is that it is getting old. You can only pull that card so many times before people get tired of it and want things to change. This is a perfect example of an element of the story that turned from a good, understandable plot point, to another addition to the pile of monotony that is getting to be a hassle to read through. If I wanted to know about the same drama week after week, I'd go back to high school. I want to read this story to get excited and surprised about what might come next, not to read the same things over in different situations in every chapter.

That's a fair perspective, and I respect that you hold it. But I see it not as an interruption, but as punctuation—emphasis that each episode is part of a growing whole—which may be handled differently each time it comes up, and I groan no more when it comes up than I ever think to myself "Well, I guess the Joker's escaped from Arkham again; this is going to be a tiresome waste of time!" Some things, in my opinion, don't necessarily get old with repetition, and I think that Blackjack's feelings regarding killing/execution are among them. But I can understand why one might feel differently.

[Somber]

Here is the point about her not being an executioner. There is going to be a point where she has to make a judgement, and if she can kill in cold blood or not will make a very critical difference. That's the point. If she could kill everyone who crossed her, she'd be the reaper, perminently, with a trail of corpses in her wake. And she'd be doomed as well.

[Kippershy]

This is one of the main issues with cloudsdale, they cannot seem
to look at anything they enjoy under a critical light. "

I'm doing it because it's criticism that otherwise isn't heard here, because it's stuff heard elsewhere plenty but never here, because it's a well made point, regardless of source.

>criticisms not heard here
>Implying I'm not doing anything

It's like nobody wants to play with me.

Okay, aside from you. My bad.

--
And for the record, I've not read the rest of the thread yet, not enough time. Anyone else who made a point for me to read, I'll get to it as soon as I can for you.

[Train Dodger]

We ALL know that Blackjack is the biggest Mary Sue in the Fallout-verse and only second to the Marty Stu of Goldenblood.

This essay sums up my opinion on that ridiculous label.

I will admit, Project Horizons does have some problems. Mostly superficial ones. I think it's a fun read, if also a highly depressing one. It might not be to everyone's tastes. It's like Marmite. Either you love it or you hate it.

Personally, I like the setting and the world-building, and the descriptions and word usage are generally very good.

I like the visual aspects of PH more than the textual, to be honest. In some places, it reads like a detailed summary of a graphic novel or animated series. If this were, in fact, a cartoon, I don't think anyone would have any reason to complain; they'd be far too distracted by the visceral action.

I can really appreciate the attention-to-detail afforded to the layout of the city of Hoofington itself, and the unique hazards the place poses. It's a major pet peeve of mine when an author neglects the setting and opts for a more character-centric format. Like an epistolary novel. Or a talk show. The reason why I prefer genre fiction to so much literature is because science fiction and fantasy authors treat the environment as a character. In some instances, as the main character. Let's face it, Hoofington has that in spades. That immersion factor cannot be denied. It can, however, be compromised by way of narrative contradiction. Exceptional care is required to nurture an environment this complex and forbidding.

Somber has masterfully crafted what is quite possibly the worst shithole in all of fiction. A visit to the ninth circle of hell would be far more pleasant than a vacation in Hoofington, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

The characterization is good-to-average, but the story itself has a bit too many threads running in parallel.

It's also highly uncompressed, with the events of just a couple months spanning over a million words. Difficult to avoid, since it runs side-by-side with the original's chronology, leaving no room for timeskips at the eleventh hour.

Not too sure about the punctuation. I'm not a big fan of ellipses; Somber uses too goddamned many of those things, but then again, so do a considerable majority of fanfic authors. When I write, I try to keep them under six per chapter. Preferably zero. They break up text too much and make for painful reading. In that 4,258-word excerpt that Hinds posted, there are 64 of them. If you ask me, that is about sixty too many.

In fact, beyond PH's strengths or its flaws, what bothers me about its readership is that they're so strongly polarized that any real attempts at constructive criticism are few and far in-between. I take a more balanced viewpoint. I really like the story, but I don't mind pointing out things that I think could use some improvement, either. Make no mistake, anything that's wrong with PH is entirely fixable. You might see the 1.1 million words and counting and think "oh my god, it's too huge", or "they'll never get around to editing it all", but it really isn't that big of a deal. Maybe three months of solid work. Maybe eight.

Spoiler:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: this story is pure grindhouse. B-movie-esque pulp. Some people hate that just for the sake of hating it. Well, I say screw that. I'm in a love affair with the lowest common denominator. So what? Does everything have to be held up to some lofty, Shakespearean standard? With the way some people criticize this series, you'd think they'd never watched Robocop, or Death Race 2000, or Kill Bill. Because that's what this is like. This scratches that itch for me.

I'm proud to say that the concept of the penny dreadful is very much alive and well. Despite myself, I'm still quite anxious to see what happens next.

[Somber]

I can do something about the elipsis overload... Thanks.

Like I said, if I could go through the whole story and prune things, I would. All I want to do now is finish the story...

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