Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Overthepacific]

Sanguine is a hero. He's a loving father desperately trying to right the wrongs he committed in his former life, his only thought is for the safety of his family. The key he needs to save them (and he doesn't even want to keep it, just use it one time) is in the hands of a brainless thug known for brutal drunken rampages and keeping company with psychopaths and murderers. She stole the key in the first place, she can't be reasoned with, regularly kills his helpers in horrific ways, abandons her own people to destruction, and would like nothing more than to destroy him... and for no reason at all except her own petty selfishness and ingnorance! He's fighting multiple antagonists on every front, his supposed friends are all suspect, he's being threatened by a vicious AI and an insane hive-mind both bent on destroying all of Equestria, and his only truly loyal ally is a crazy filly who has some kind of semi-incestuous fixation on him. No matter how much it sickens him to do what he does, he has no other reasonable choices... fate has given him his hand to play, and play he must.

Look at the previous paragraph... everything there is in the book, it's all there in black and white (or whatever colors you've set you browser to), every word is directly supported by what Somber has written... but are you really prepared to tell me that this is the story you read???

I tried to read this again...still what?
How does this help your point at all?

[BrentOGara]

It's not that complicated to understand that stuff, right? It's totally intuitive! (It was for me.)

BTW, I'm of the theory that all intelligent beings are totally psychic. The entire point of language is that it's a more efficient means to read each other's minds. It's just that the psychic stuff's hard to pin down without statisticians breaking into tears at how overcomplicated and fraught with false positives it is.

In On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft Stephen King says that writing is the purest form of telepathy, and that the author's only job is to transmit images from their mind to yours... and then goes on to explain why this tends to be made more difficult than it needs to be.

False positives are the only kind of positives I get most days...

[BrentOGara]

What?

Look, all this philosophical stuff isnt going to take away from the fact that whichever way we think things happen isn't going to change what actually happened. Only why we thought it happened. Regardless of what anyone thinks, it still happened the way it happened, and it really isnt going to change much in terms of the actual story. Its going to end however Somber wants it to end, our input or no.

As much as I'd love to mentally change things around with stories(Like the ending to Background pony) it isn't going to happen.

... and that's why you failed.

But seriously, at this point I'm 99% sure we're not going to agree on this point. I will understand that you feel that a story is completely the authors work, with no meaningful input from the reader, and you will not understand why I believe differently... and that's OK. We're still fans of Somber and her work, and we may even both be Bronies. On that basis alone, we can find room for love and tolerance in our hearts... even if you're wrong (I'm sorry, I really am, I'm just too weak to resist! I hope you tolerate my weakness, even if you may not love it).

[BrentOGara]

I tried to read this again...still what?
How does this help your point at all?

It was an (apparently hopeless) attempt to show that the same words could be read very different ways. While the synopsis I presented is in the story, it's not at all the "story" that most people took away from reading it.

... also, it's far too late at night for discussions of this type, so I do hope you don't mind if I go to bed instead of continuing to beat this dead pony with you. I'm sure you'll be happier talking to people who aren't trying to re-write your entire understanding of reality via increasingly contentious posts on a MLP forum.

... not to mention that this string of posts has managed to destroy my brohoof count. Note to self: DO NOT discuss advanced literary theory in this forum ever again.

[Derpmind]

... and that's why you failed.

But seriously, at this point I'm 99% sure we're not going to agree on this point. I will understand that you feel that a story is completely the authors work, with no meaningful input from the reader, and you will not understand why I believe differently... and that's OK. We're still fans of Somber and her work, and we may even both be Bronies. On that basis alone, we can find room for love and tolerance in our hearts... even if you're wrong (I'm sorry, I really am, I'm just too weak to resist! I hope you tolerate my weakness, even if you may not love it).

You're keeping me from precious sleep, dammit.

You use of Sanguine as an example is horrible, first off. Sanguine is a tragic character, but he is also extremely sociopathic. He murdered entire communities to achieve his goals, and he cultivated his daughter's semi-incestuous fixation.

More importantly DON'T FUCKING PUT WORDS INTO OTHER'S MOUTHS. That quote up top is you shoving your deliberate misinterpretations of Overthepacific's opinions down our throats as some kind of stupid passive-aggressive putdown. Go jump in a lake if you want to keep shit like that up.

[BrentOGara]

You're keeping me from precious sleep, dammit.

You use of Sanguine as an example is horrible, first off. Sanguine is a tragic character, but he is also extremely sociopathic. He murdered entire communities to achieve his goals, and he cultivated his daughter's semi-incestuous fixation.

More importantly DON'T FUCKING PUT WORDS INTO OTHER'S MOUTHS. That quote up top is you shoving your deliberate misinterpretations of Overthepacific's opinions down our throats as some kind of stupid passive-aggressive putdown. Go jump in a lake if you want to keep shit like that up.

I did not mean to take any quotes out of context, as I hate it when that kind of thing happens to me. I've reviewed the quotes I've used from OTP and I honestly don't see where I've taken him out of context... in most cases I simply snipped my own previous entry (is this what you're referring to?). I am rather tired myself, so it's totally possible I'm just not seeing it. I try very hard not to be passive-aggressive, but I do slip from time to time, and I apologize if this was one of those times.

As for Sanguine being a horrible example, yeah, he is. I chose him specifically because he's such an extreme edge-case that it made the point painfully clear. I do believe (if Sanguine were a real person) that is precisely how he would have seen the situation.

[Derpmind]

As for Sanguine being a horrible example, yeah, he is. I chose him specifically because he's such an extreme edge-case that it made the point painfully clear. I do believe (if Sanguine were a real person) that is precisely how he would have seen the situation.

I'm too sleepy to make this a real argument, but I think you're straying too far here from your original point. I could properly go on about how we read the story from the pont-of-view of Blackjack and that what you're talking about more recently is invalidated because some stories have intentional points of view, and also talk about how your original point was basically that we can headcanon shuffle stuff we read to be better (but that your supporting stuff about alternative interpretations of reality doesn't directly support that at all,) but I'm sleepy and I don't usually do well with long posts anyways.

But if you're too sleepy and I'm too sleepy then let's just go to sleep and maybe talk more later. Or, ya know, drop the entire thing.

[Guest]

Sometimes the truth hurts. In their nasty vile way of saying things, they can tell the truth. It may not seem like theyre being reasonable, but for every person that voices their opinion, there are at least three more who share it but wont say anything. I wouldnt discredit all of those people and brush it off as ALL of them playing the devils advocate.

I wouldn't be surprised if some people did leave the fandom over that honeestly. I didn't really like it, because that's something you end a series with, not pull out in the middle of it. There are so many ways it could go wrong. But its yet to be seen anyway.

I canalso understand some not continuing this story at all. With the boredom I feel when reading through sometimes, I honestly just want to stop and just believe the story ends at 33. But I wont. Ill keep reading and try to help. That doesnt go the same for many people who share the former opinion.

But for every person saying that they hate the story, there are tons of others who are still loving it; people are more vocal when voicing complaints than praise, because of a lot of reasons.

---

Noteworthy: I would like to point out to everyone (specifically not anyone in particular; this is sort of more theory than practice, and if it seems like you, or anyone else, are being singled out in a passive-aggressive way, that is absolutely not my intention and I apologize for it) that there is a massive difference between providing constructive criticism and repeatedly making the same points over a period of days or weeks once it's become clear that the author just doesn't agree or has no intention of implementing the changes you want. At that point, it seems to me that you've gotta either accept that you're not going to like something about the story (yet) or, well, stop reading. Which sucks, and frankly there exists only one series that I've ever consciously decided to stop reading (James Patterson... my only regret is having started), but that really is a question you need to ask yourself. Maybe it's easier when it's not something you paid for - something you have no actual capital invested in - and maybe it's not, because it's something you put more of yourself into. But, well, yeah... if you really think something's a deal breaker for you, and it doesn't seem likely to change, then maybe it's time to give serious thought to breaking off the relationship. (This metaphor can even extend to the post-breakup stuff, in which you get to decide what kind of ex you're going to be!)

Another way this metaphor works: it really is a relationship between the author and the reader in this case. Much like with serialized novels in the 19th century, we (the readers) get to communicate with the author before the story is finished being written. In this case, since the reader/author gap is much smaller, we acknowledge that the writer is still improving as a writer and welcomes pointers, rather than using the whole "artist as lone genius atop a mountain that is also on an island" thing that Foucault always hated; and we are furthermore using electronic, informal communication, for rapid responses back and forth. This is undoubtedly a good thing for the writer, since he or she gets a lot of feedback on his or her choices. However, it's also something that the fans benefit from: they get to potentially see problems they have alleviated, and get to (accurately) feel like they're helping push forward a cool story into which they have invested time and emotions. Importantly, neither should take the other for granted, or the relationship is going to get rocky.

Unrelated: releasing stuff in a serialized fashion can be very cool, potentially... but it also can make things a lot harder. If the audience thinks something's going on, and they don't like it, in a normal novel, they have incentive to keep reading because, well, the rest of the book's already in their hands. This is not the case with a serialized work, and it stresses the importance of ending on a strong note. In a sense, it only amplifies the risk/reward of a cliffhanger ending for a chapter.

@Pacific
One thing - when was Discord cop out'd? I read his being buried as an exit-stage-left for him, not a exit-from-this-story - certainly not as his demise. I sort of imagined him heading out into a metaphorical sunset to recuperate and think about existence, before returning - or perhaps not - at a later date. That, for me, was a very satisfying resolution.

[Snipehamster]

He lost a lot of readers after the recent chapter.

There's absolutely no evidence that that's true at all. Sure, there was a bunch of discussion about it, but I don't think anyone said that they're just going to stop reading it.

Derpmind, Somber lost an editor after the last chapter. And while it hasn't been particularly evident here, in this community of long-term readers and dedicated fans, there's been plenty of outcry and criticism elsewhere. A loss of some readership, sadly, wouldn't surprise me at all.

BrentOGara: I recommend you take another look at Sanguine. Even from his own perspective, he's not a hero at all. He even says as much several times. All his actions and motives ultimately boil down to selfishness and fear. Even saving his family wasn't entirely altruistic: his mission to save them was itself a lifeline for his own sanity.

[Sindri]

Ok, this is kinda getting ridiculous. Overthepacific has been saying for pages now that s/he feels like a bunch of stuff stopped working after ch.33, and no-one's said 'yes' or 'no' or anything else in direct response to that opinion. I do re-read some chapters here and there, but I haven't done a straight read-through in months so I really can't tell.

My personal opinion? Well, I'll try not to fangush all over you too much... From the first chapter through the 32nd, Project Horizons was simply and steadily climbing in quality. From 34 onward it has been difficult to judge; there have been hiccups, there have been some of what I consider to be the best parts, and generally things seem to have remained at the incredible level of quality they built to (though memories fade and the novelty of the new chapter tends to inflate my perception of it for a while; every new chapter feels like the best thing evar and I need to do a lot of looking back to rate things rationally). Overall the story is not perfect, but it's better than anything I have ever read, and I've read a lot.

So yeah, I really don't agree with those who say that the story went downhill after 33. It slowed it's meteoric ascent, but that's all. I don't typically argue this because I can't argue themes as well as I can more solid things; so much of it is completely subjective opinions, and there's pretty much no evidence and little logic to present, so the debates almost never accomplish anything and are too likely to turn into angry ranting, so I typically stay quiet here unless asked.

You all talk about canon like it's thermodynamics, written in stone, the way the universe simply is, but it's not...
If you want PH to be written differently, then DO IT.

If you ever make that edit public, it's blatant plagiarism and likely an insult to the author; saying 'hey everybody, look at me, I made something that's 98% this other guy's work but mine it totally better!' makes you a dick. If you don't cite your source, or you try to pass it as the original work instead of explaining exactly how it was produced, it makes you a criminal dick and seriously hurts the author.

If it's just for you, a jotting down of your headcanon? No problem. Lots of fans have decided they don't like the ending of Mass Effect 3 and decided on something they felt was more appropriate than the canonical events. Lots of fans have modded their games to keep Aeris in the party after she died in FFVII. Lots of fans across every genre and medium have decided that a character's death, or shift in moral alignment, or any of a thousand other pieces of canon did not sit well with them, so they "fixed" it in their own heads. And so long as it stays in your own head, or in a clearly labelled supplementary 'what it?' fixfic that doesn't try to tear down the original, there's no problem with that because it doesn't hurt anything.

But if you try to convince others that your way is the right one, if you try to pass your notions off as canon, if you claim that they were the original intent or even what the author actually wrote, you're hurting people.
And canon is set in stone; no matter how you like to distort it in your head, or how much you build up around it, only the real author can change what canonically happened.

Personally I've taken part in this kind of headcanon divergence, but only when it seemed clear to me that either the section in question was written by a person other than who was in charge of most of the story before that (like how the original ME3 ending broke multiple pieces of canon lore and contradicted most of the themes of the series), or when it's clear that meddling executives forced an author to change things. When what I'm reading seems to be the unaltered vision of the "real" author, I either accept the stupid parts or discard the whole piece.

Someone really telling me how or why things are put together better, in their opinion, in the second half of the story, rather than the first would be nice. But everyone seems to be skipping around that.

...I can't say that this is the same story I read so obsessively when I first came upon it. I agree with swicked that the steady influence taint had on Blackjack was great for the feeling of progress, and Coe Comh Ceov Miss Gaelic spoke true when she said that Flank was the high point of the story- the rest of it does pale in comparison. That's more a testament to the competence of that arc than any failings in the rest of the story.

When I first came upon PH, I was looking for more Fallout: Equestria, and this seemed like the best of a bunch of mediocre options. In the first chapter it wasn't great, but it wasn't bad, and I was interested enough to read the second. I was hooked by chapter six; I hadn't shed a tear over a work of fiction for over a decade before that, but Somber managed to coax one out.
By about fourteen I was recommending it to everyone I knew. I loved it because while Littlepip always felt like a designated hero, going on epic quests and saving the world and always being so much larger than life, Blackjack was a person, dealing with a person's problems alongside her similarly fucked up friends, and the worst threat on the horizon was a psychotic cyborg hunting her. I loved Project Horizons for not being about gods and heroes and the fate of the world, but instead being about people, driven by characters instead of plot, never losing that emotional connection.
Now, the quests are more epic and the threats more apocalyptic than anything Littlepip conceived of. It's clearly not the same story it was back at chapter fourteen. But at the same time, it really is. Because it never stopped being about the people, even when those people are the only thing between the Hoof and at least three different flavors of extinction event. The emotional connection never went away. If you told me that this was where the story was going back then, I might have stopped reading; I wouldn't have believed that even Somber could keep what had made it great in the early days. Now I just love it more.



As for the dozens of readers leaving? Oh no. A bunch of anons said that they were totally quitting guys, no really. This is truly a tragedy of unparalleled proportions.
I am well aware that there are decent people on 4chan, and that on occasion they produce great things. Those people use names. The only reasons to pretend to be anonymous are if you are literally so lazy you can't type in a damn screen name, in which case what you're saying doesn't matter, or if you can't bear for what you're writing to be visibly connected to even a throwaway fictitious persona. People say stupid shit as anon because they don't want to be called on it. People hate as anon because they don't want consequences, and don't want to think about their "beliefs" enough to stand up for them, or because they know that their reasoning is flawed. People say they're never reading again as anon because if they did so under a name, the next time they inevitably showed up to talk about the story somebody might mention it.
The unexamined life is not worth living, the unexamined opinion is not worth hearing, and those who avoid any attempt at examination never in my experience have anything of value to offer.
Did Somber lose readers over Black? Of course. Over 34 and the resurrection? Probably a few. Over the Hightower arc? Likely. Here? Perhaps one, two at most, but there would be no fewer than sixty claiming to leave and continuing to obsessively check for updates.

Apparently this post was no good... is it possible to delete your own posts?

Yes there is. I don't remember if it's done through the edit interface or not... I seem to remember an [x] button at the top next to the quotes and edits and reports, but that might have a time limit on it?
Anyway, you can only touch the original, not quoted versions from others. Soo...

Even in the story itself Sanguine and Blackjack had totally different views on what they were doing. While you can argue that the actions they took had an objective reality, that's totally inconsequential compared to their subjective understanding of why they took those action.

Sanguine is a hero. He's a loving father desperately trying to right the wrongs he committed in his former life, his only thought is for the safety of his family. The key he needs to save them (and he doesn't even want to keep it, just use it one time) is in the hands of a brainless thug known for brutal drunken rampages and keeping company with psychopaths and murderers. She stole the key in the first place, she can't be reasoned with, regularly kills his helpers in horrific ways, abandons her own people to destruction, and would like nothing more than to destroy him... and for no reason at all except her own petty selfishness and ingnorance! He's fighting multiple antagonists on every front, his supposed friends are all suspect, he's being threatened by a vicious AI and an insane hive-mind both bent on destroying all of Equestria, and his only truly loyal ally is a crazy filly who has some kind of semi-incestuous fixation on him. No matter how much it sickens him to do what he does, he has no other reasonable choices... fate has given him his hand to play, and play he must.

Look at the previous paragraph... everything there is in the book, it's all there in black and white (or whatever colors you've set you browser to), every word is directly supported by what Somber has written... but are you really prepared to tell me that this is the story you read???

Yes. This is the story, exactly as written, as read by Dr. Trueblood. This interpretation of events is just as valid as the interpretation in which Blackjack is a paragon of goodness and nobility. It's a misleading presentation because it glosses over the communities he's murdered and the people he's tortured along the way, but the same can be said of a description of Blackjack which doesn't include her treatment of Silver Spoon, her crippling Boing, her mutilation of the Enclave soldiers when she went crazy, her rape of P-21 so many years ago, etc.

The same sequence of events tells a different story to every person involved, based on their own preconceptions. The same actions were taken, the same words were said, but every character and every reader sees them differently to some extent.

...I don't see why people have a problem with that. Why did you need to get rid of this post? And why is everybody downvoting for it? Am I missing something big?

He lost a lot of readers after the recent chapter.

There's absolutely no evidence that that's true at all. Sure, there was a bunch of discussion about it, but I don't think anyone said that they're just going to stop reading it.

Derpmind, Somber lost an editor after the last chapter. And while it hasn't been particularly evident here, in this community of long-term readers and dedicated fans, there's been plenty of outcry and criticism elsewhere. A loss of some readership, sadly, wouldn't surprise me at all.

BrentOGara: I recommend you take another look at Sanguine. Even from his own perspective, he's not a hero at all. He even says as much several times. All his actions and motives ultimately boil down to selfishness and fear. Even saving his family wasn't entirely altruistic: his mission to save them was itself a lifeline for his own sanity.

...Okay, in closing I would like to say that everything Snipe just said is true any any contradictions in what I wrote earlier should be blamed on me being sleep-deprived. Srsly, this guy's smarter than me.

[Kippershy]

He lost a lot of readers after the recent chapter.

There's
absolutely no evidence that that's true at all. Sure, there was a bunch
of discussion about it, but I don't think anyone said that they're just
going to stop reading it.

Hey Overthepacific, can you try and
pinpoint why exactly chapters after 34 are boring to you now please? It
really sucks that the story doesn't work for you, but we need to figure
out why. Did the story loose momentum with you after BJ's death because
she wasn't dying anymore? And remember, you're getting wordy because you
emotionally care a great deal about this, so it's not exactly a bad
thing to type too much.

Now I've had a chance to sleep
for the first time in two weeks, reading this and I have to say, maybe
not on here, but on other places (not only including /mlp/) people HAVE
said they've had enough thanks to a mixture of the shattered hoof dream
and/or Legate.

I am sorry to have stressed you Kippershy, when I wrote my original post I was fairly sure that it was obvious I was pointing out the futility of whining about how PH "should" have been written, and the inherent arrogance and laziness of those who think they could do it better but make no effort to do so... hence my repeated insistence that they "do it".

1. Not stressed but no worries.
2. No-one is actually saying they could write it better, they're saying they don't like where it's going.
In terms of smaller aspects of the storyline with certain parts, yes, some other people could write it better - but as for a whole, Somber is an exceptionally skilled writer and we all know it. Like I say, it's why we all feel as we do about it.
If this was Project Human, we could stop caring completely and treat it like a joke, but Somber is well above that.

But as I've taken the step back and had the
breather I needed to look back and analyze with a more critical eye,
I've come to understand the crowd who feel disappointed that what they
once loved is rare if not gone forever now.

Don't say things like that! I firmly
believe that David is going though a (lingering) rough patch in his
life, and given time he will work his way clear and everything will be Sunshine and Rainbows.
I honestly don't know if I could remain a brony if PH crashes and burns
(yes, that makes me willfully blind, irrational, obsessive and a little
bit scary... but aren't we all?).

He's depressed. He's been depressed for many years now and until I found something that alleviated some of the pressure, I was just as bad myself for many years too.
It's not really about whether he's depressed or not though. It's not about working his way through it to a happier life.
Now, let me stop my point right there and remind you that I'm not against Somber overcoming his condition. Of course I want Somber happy and of course I would help him as much as I could IFIi knew a way to remove his depression like I had my own. but that doesn't change the story.

The story stays the same no matter how he's feeling, at the end of the day. It'll still be the adventures of Blackjack & co and she'll still have her destiny ahead of her.
The things I speak of that are lost forever are true though.
Back when she would sing and dance in museums while drunk out of her mind.
The days when she would walk into Megamart and get drunk, play cards and fight Deus with a big turret on her side.
The days when it was more light hearted yet grim and gritty at the same time.
I miss when fights made a huge impact on her - not just "oh shit, I've lost a roboleg again, time to repair/upgrade" but "FUCK, MY EYE, MY FUCKING EYE!" and stuff like that.

You can't tell me those moments haven't been lost from recent chapters.
Replacing limbs is nothing like the risk of truly losing one.


As for the rest of that post, I either agree to your points or have nothing to add. Mostly agree though. Don't much feel like blocking up the thread with points I agree with, given the length of this post already.

Criminy. Ever think of what Somber might write after this, with all the lessons learned?
Or
I suppose the Author may take a break or something sensible I guess.
Still, the thought of APH (After Project Horizons) is just something
strange to me... I'd have so much extra time on my hands and no clue
what to do with it unless Somber starts something else.

If you
can catch this in the great flood of recent posts, Somber, I've got a
question: Say you finish Horizons. What would be next?

I personally have Broken Bonds to focus on, though yeah, it will be different without PH.

Thats really stereotyping people because of the place
they decide to discuss FAOE on. People there don´t complain because
they only have read a part of PH, they complain BECAUSE they have read
all of it, since such a long time, and are disappointed in the direction
it took. If they really read only a few chapters they wouldn´t give a
flying fuck.

Also "The Ride never ends" reefers to Mr. Bones Wild Ride:
http://chanarchive.org/4chan/v/40679

Exactly my point and OH GOD. THAT'S WHERE THAT COMES FROM? MY FUCKING SIDES.
GIVE THEM BACK, I NEED THEM. PLEASE.
Muh sides




There's a lot more to read but I'll leave that out of this post and get back to reading the comments now.

[Snipehamster]

...but you didn't leave due to your disagreements over how the fic should be; you left because of how badly your objections upset him. If he'd just taken it and continued to insist the fic has to be how he's laid out thus far, you wouldn't have quit, right?

Or have I misunderstood the reason for your leaving?

You haven't misunderstood, just missed out one particular detail that I may not have communicated clearly. The urgency of my recent criticisms (which were what upset Somber so much) was a result of 54.

The Legate, and to a lesser extent the Shattered Hoof scene, exemplify my biggest problems with PH. The fact that I let them get through editing with so little resistance shocked me; was I blind to the problems they posed, or had I simply not cared enough to criticise them as much as I should? This led me to contact Somber with a variety of issues centered on, but not exclusive to, those scenes along with a variety of suggestions as to how things might be improved. These suggestions ranged in scope from depowering the Legate to cutting him entirely. The same applied to Psalm, and by extension the Goddess and Lacunae. I still believe that the retroactive removal of those four would do a lot for the story's pace and focus, while cutting right down on unnescessary fluff and angst.

Somber didn't take these suggestions well (in hindsight, perhaps I should have put them forward with more gentleness and tact), and so here I am.

[O. Hinds]

No. He ended up trapped under a pile of rubble.

Eh? I never got that impression.

@Pacific
One thing - when was Discord cop out'd? I read his being buried as an exit-stage-left for him, not a exit-from-this-story - certainly not as his demise. I sort of imagined him heading out into a metaphorical sunset to recuperate and think about existence, before returning - or perhaps not - at a later date. That, for me, was a very satisfying resolution.

Right. You think that a little pile of rocks is going to stop Discord? If it causes any problems for him at all, he'll just have to rest for a time to get back enough strength to teleport out. Or turn the rocks into cheese wheels and eat them, or something.


@BrentOGara:
Sorry to be a bother, but would you perhaps mind stoping changing the titles of your posts? You've of course no obligation to do this, but I'm finding it a bit annoying.

I don't typically argue this because I can't argue themes as well as I can more solid things; so much of it is completely subjective opinions, and there's pretty much no evidence and little logic to present, so the debates almost never accomplish anything and are too likely to turn into angry ranting, so I typically stay quiet here unless asked.

Hm, that sounds familiar… :) There certainly does seem to be here at the moment a lot of discussion to which math is not an applicable answer.

[Moodyman90]

On something completely unrelated other then stuff I wondered after looking back...

Is Blackjack cured of her Killing Joke curse? Or did the effects simply fade away because literally everything exploding all the time would get boring and the fact she used it to open that door?

Mainly asking because if she's still affected by Killing Joke but it's effects are dormant, when would be the "funniest" moment for it to kick in again. Like at the end of a moment in between between Blackjack and Glory because one of them "exploded".

I'm okay if she's cured and that's something that will never show up again, I just don't feel like I got a proper answer if it was truly gone or not.

[Meleagridis]

Come back after a good night's sleep and I find no less than four iterations of what is basically, "I'm too tired to make a rational argument, BUT..."
You know, if you have to SAY you're too tired to talk, maybe you could throw it on a notepad and try again the next day?

@BrentOGara:
Sorry to be a bother, but would you perhaps mind stoping changing the titles of your posts? You've of course no obligation to do this, but I'm finding it a bit annoying.

I gotta plead otherwise. They're like little Easter eggs.

[Sindri]

On something completely unrelated other then stuff I wondered after looking back...

Is Blackjack cured of her Killing Joke curse? Or did the effects simply fade away because literally everything exploding all the time would get boring and the fact she used it to open that door?

Mainly asking because if she's still affected by Killing Joke but it's effects are dormant, when would be the "funniest" moment for it to kick in again. Like at the end of a moment in between between Blackjack and Glory because one of them "exploded".

I'm okay if she's cured and that's something that will never show up again, I just don't feel like I got a proper answer if it was truly gone or not.

My thinking is that there's a conservation of energy type deal here. Almost every effect of Killing Joke has been a one-time transformation, doing a lot while the victim was touching the plant but then leaving them in a stable state. With Blackjack, the explosions began afterwards and continued when she was out of the plant's direct influence, so where did the energy for those explosions come from? I would guess that when she touched it, it gave her some arbitrary number of "charges" which were expended to produce comedic detonations until they ran out. Unless of course it's saving the last charge for when she least expects it, after lulling her into a false sense of security.

[O. Hinds]

@BrentOGara:
Sorry to be a bother, but would you perhaps mind stoping changing the titles of your posts? You've of course no obligation to do this, but I'm finding it a bit annoying.

I gotta plead otherwise. They're like little Easter eggs.

Eh, different people are bothered by different things. It's not that much of a problem, and I would't want to curtail your enjoyment.

[Overthepacific]

Jeez guys, I leave for a couple hours and the thread explodes. Ill try to answer everybody on my break as best I can so bear with me.

I tried to read this again...still what?
How does this help your point at all?

It was an (apparently hopeless) attempt to show that the same words could be read very different ways. While the synopsis I presented is in the story, it's not at all the "story" that most people took away from reading it.

... also, it's far too late at night for discussions of this type, so I do hope you don't mind if I go to bed instead of continuing to beat this dead pony with you. I'm sure you'll be happier talking to people who aren't trying to re-write your entire understanding of reality via increasingly contentious posts on a MLP forum.

... not to mention that this string of posts has managed to destroy my brohoof count. Note to self: DO NOT discuss advanced literary theory in this forum ever again.

The only problem I have with you, is that you are twisting your own argument and straight up calling me wrong. Lets get this straight before I start to get impolite.

You started all of this by telling me I should DIRECTLY REWRITE the story, which I will never do.
I was also confused as to why you would even use that example to try and prove your point. I had already said that reader interpretations dont change the overall scheme and direction of things. To me you were just repeating yourself and you werent even really trying to argue against my point.

If you wanna be that english teacher that has to over-analyze every separate aspect of the story and think that its always going to be different, regardless of what actually happens, more power to you. But when you go and start telling me I'm wrong for having a problem with recognizing that interpretation doesnt have much to do with the actual direction the story will take towards its ending, then we are going to have a problem.

I can see that things can be read different ways, that doesnt change what is actually happening in the story. No matter how you view sanguine, he failed to bring back his family and hes dead now. I'm not sure how you would change something like that through interpretation.

[Overthepacific]

Sometimes the truth hurts. In their nasty vile way of saying things, they can tell the truth. It may not seem like theyre being reasonable, but for every person that voices their opinion, there are at least three more who share it but wont say anything. I wouldnt discredit all of those people and brush it off as ALL of them playing the devils advocate.

I wouldn't be surprised if some people did leave the fandom over that honeestly. I didn't really like it, because that's something you end a series with, not pull out in the middle of it. There are so many ways it could go wrong. But its yet to be seen anyway.

I canalso understand some not continuing this story at all. With the boredom I feel when reading through sometimes, I honestly just want to stop and just believe the story ends at 33. But I wont. Ill keep reading and try to help. That doesnt go the same for many people who share the former opinion.

But for every person saying that they hate the story, there are tons of others who are still loving it; people are more vocal when voicing complaints than praise, because of a lot of reasons.

---

Noteworthy: I would like to point out to everyone (specifically not anyone in particular; this is sort of more theory than practice, and if it seems like you, or anyone else, are being singled out in a passive-aggressive way, that is absolutely not my intention and I apologize for it) that there is a massive difference between providing constructive criticism and repeatedly making the same points over a period of days or weeks once it's become clear that the author just doesn't agree or has no intention of implementing the changes you want. At that point, it seems to me that you've gotta either accept that you're not going to like something about the story (yet) or, well, stop reading. Which sucks, and frankly there exists only one series that I've ever consciously decided to stop reading (James Patterson... my only regret is having started), but that really is a question you need to ask yourself. Maybe it's easier when it's not something you paid for - something you have no actual capital invested in - and maybe it's not, because it's something you put more of yourself into. But, well, yeah... if you really think something's a deal breaker for you, and it doesn't seem likely to change, then maybe it's time to give serious thought to breaking off the relationship. (This metaphor can even extend to the post-breakup stuff, in which you get to decide what kind of ex you're going to be!)

Another way this metaphor works: it really is a relationship between the author and the reader in this case. Much like with serialized novels in the 19th century, we (the readers) get to communicate with the author before the story is finished being written. In this case, since the reader/author gap is much smaller, we acknowledge that the writer is still improving as a writer and welcomes pointers, rather than using the whole "artist as lone genius atop a mountain that is also on an island" thing that Foucault always hated; and we are furthermore using electronic, informal communication, for rapid responses back and forth. This is undoubtedly a good thing for the writer, since he or she gets a lot of feedback on his or her choices. However, it's also something that the fans benefit from: they get to potentially see problems they have alleviated, and get to (accurately) feel like they're helping push forward a cool story into which they have invested time and emotions. Importantly, neither should take the other for granted, or the relationship is going to get rocky.

Unrelated: releasing stuff in a serialized fashion can be very cool, potentially... but it also can make things a lot harder. If the audience thinks something's going on, and they don't like it, in a normal novel, they have incentive to keep reading because, well, the rest of the book's already in their hands. This is not the case with a serialized work, and it stresses the importance of ending on a strong note. In a sense, it only amplifies the risk/reward of a cliffhanger ending for a chapter.

@Pacific
One thing - when was Discord cop out'd? I read his being buried as an exit-stage-left for him, not a exit-from-this-story - certainly not as his demise. I sort of imagined him heading out into a metaphorical sunset to recuperate and think about existence, before returning - or perhaps not - at a later date. That, for me, was a very satisfying resolution.

Well, this is quite a lot of text, let me try and get through it...

In this environment, I can see where people wouldnt be understanding all of the hate, but there aren't a lot of people actually here honestly, so for sheer numbers, the negative seems to be winning out to me.

Next, I already went over this. I really care about this story, and I dont want to see it dig itself into a deeper hole than it already is. I'm not going to leave this story, and I'm not going to stop voicing my opinion. I dont care how many times it takes, If I dont voice my complaints, and just leave, well, it isn't going to help anyone at all, and thats all I wanna do is help.

Discord was such a cop out it hurt. Sure him saving them was noble, but he is not going to be trapped by a pile of rubble. With all of his powers, there is just no chance of him actually staying down there and not coming out to cause problems. But thats what happened, the topic was avoided and the character was thrown out. Thats why I think it was a cop out.

[Sindri]

Discord was such a cop out it hurt. Sure him saving them was noble, but he is not going to be trapped by a pile of rubble. With all of his powers, there is just no chance of him actually staying down there and not coming out to cause problems. But thats what happened, the topic was avoided and the character was thrown out. Thats why I think it was a cop out.

...Except that that never happened. He was not trapped. He was tiny, and vastly less powerful than he used to be after being drained for centuries, but he's free now and regaining strength.

[Overthepacific]

Right. You think that a little pile of rocks is going to stop Discord? If it causes any problems for him at all, he'll just have to rest for a time to get back enough strength to teleport out. Or turn the rocks into cheese wheels and eat them, or something.

This guy knows where its at.

[Overthepacific]

Discord was such a cop out it hurt. Sure him saving them was noble, but he is not going to be trapped by a pile of rubble. With all of his powers, there is just no chance of him actually staying down there and not coming out to cause problems. But thats what happened, the topic was avoided and the character was thrown out. Thats why I think it was a cop out.

...Except that that never happened. He was not trapped. He was tiny, and vastly less powerful than he used to be after being drained for centuries, but he's free now and regaining strength.

He seemed to have enough power to be able to save them from the reactor(or whatever was about to explode) from killing them. I think he has enough power to get out of there if need be.

[Sindri]

Discord was such a cop out it hurt. Sure him saving them was noble, but he is not going to be trapped by a pile of rubble. With all of his powers, there is just no chance of him actually staying down there and not coming out to cause problems. But thats what happened, the topic was avoided and the character was thrown out. Thats why I think it was a cop out.

...Except that that never happened. He was not trapped. He was tiny, and vastly less powerful than he used to be after being drained for centuries, but he's free now and regaining strength.

He seemed to have enough power to be able to save them from the reactor(or whatever was about to explode) from killing them. I think he has enough power to get out of there if need be.

Yes, which is why he got out of there. I don't know why you seem to think that he was trapped or even inconvenienced by that cave-in. Discord is free. He is out in the Wasteland.

[Overthepacific]

Well, my break is over, so I'll be back to argue with all of you in a couple hours.

Don't completely destroy this thread without me...I'll feel left out. Just because.

[Meleagridis]

In this environment, I can see where people wouldnt be understanding all of the hate, but there aren't a lot of people actually here honestly, so for sheer numbers, the negative seems to be winning out to me.

Where else do you go, other than /mlp/?

[Meleagridis]

Completely unrelated:

Rainy Mood, one of the sites best used in conjunction with Project Horizons, has Jonny Cash's Hurt on as music of the day. Hurt was one of the songs brought up forever ago as one of Blackjack's potential theme songs. Just thought that was neat.

Anybody remember the other entries for the title of Blackjack: The Song, or have some new ones?

[Retl]

Anybody remember the other entries for the title of Blackjack: The Song, or have some new ones?

I collected some in a Youtube playlist like Aoshi's SECURITY, but majority of the tunes came from mentions either in the PH discussion thread or the PHCC thread, so not likely to be anything new on the list.

[Kippershy]

Completely unrelated:

Rainy Mood, one of the sites best used in conjunction with Project Horizons, has Jonny Cash's Hurt on as music of the day. Hurt was one of the songs brought up forever ago as one of Blackjack's potential theme songs. Just thought that was neat.

Anybody remember the other entries for the title of Blackjack: The Song, or have some new ones?

I suggested Hurt, Robored suggested Again And Again by Samantha James

Spoiler:

which was because of the chance that Glory had died in what.. 27 or 28?
Flash fillies industries, either way.

I remember that one clearly because how hard it hit me.

[O. Hinds]

Discord was such a cop out it hurt. Sure him saving them was noble, but he is not going to be trapped by a pile of rubble. With all of his powers, there is just no chance of him actually staying down there and not coming out to cause problems. But thats what happened, the topic was avoided and the character was thrown out. Thats why I think it was a cop out.

Right. You think that a little pile of rocks is going to stop Discord? If it causes any problems for him at all, he'll just have to rest for a time to get back enough strength to teleport out. Or turn the rocks into cheese wheels and eat them, or something.

This guy knows where its at.

...Okay, I'm confused. You say that it was a copout that Discord was trapped, then agree with me that he wasn't trapped without apparently changing your position. What?

[O. Hinds]

Eh, Discord's just gotten loose, needs to regain strength, and probably isn't at risk of being recaptured barring a total EoS victory or something. And, anyway, leaping straight back into causing chaos is what people would expect, isn't it? :)

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