Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Icy Shake]

On Tenpony prostitution, I've tried looking for specifics on the requirements for permanent residency, and been having some trouble finding them. But, it is clear that to become a citizen (or remain one), one needs a means of support. Also, Non-citizens can't operate businesses in Tenpony, so a non-citizen can't be a madam or pimp, and can't operate independently as a prostitute, but I don't see why (based on anything definitely established) a current citizen wouldn't be allowed to support himself as a prostitute, or why an outsider (possibly a prostitute) with the caps to support the citizenship application process couldn't subsequently elect prostitution as a source of income. Granted, vice law could just be a subject that never came up in FoE, unlike Tenpony's laws and customs on banditry, ghouls, and ammunition.

Moving on, a little while back, there was some discussion of the nature of the Dragonkiller rounds from Chapter 54. It looks like they were first brought up in Chapter 5, and the context suggests that they are probably magical in nature, not mundane, based on how Trottenheimer offers a potential similarity between them and rounds for Folly:

Entry 5> G.B. has provided the metal, flux, and cores necessary. As I am working for a firearms manufacturer, I craft the devices in the shape of bullets and guns. It is true enough to their function. I warned G.B. of the risks, but he was quite dismissive. I am not certain of him anymore. Is his agitation paranoia or legitimate alarm? Am I crafting another ‘Dragon Killer’ bullet like the ones that slew B.M.? I do not know any longer. Four Leaf wants me to spend more time at home. She says the girls miss me terribly. I hope that, after this, things will finally settle down.

Also, this indicates that the Zebras have Dragonkiller rounds as well, or that they aren't so uncommon as to incite suspicion over their theft by Zebras, or that Trottenheimer is in on the coverup (likely, since he's one of Goldenblood's men) and the type of round used was part of it. Or I guess that a theft of the rounds was fabricated after the fact. Other options?

Early Chapter Editing Matters:

[OneMoreDaySK]

I usually dont post here, in fact, the last time I got involved with the comment thread was back in the second thread on eqd, but I feel compelled to now.

I just got caught up on the newest chapter, and honestly, I dont know what to think anymore.

First off, I dont even know where the story is even headed anymore. Between the remnants, dawn and the harbringers, the goddess, the enclave, and every break off in between, Im not sure what ties into what, or if its even supposed to come together at all.
Major plot points like EC-1101, and the OIA have faded off into obscurity, well mostly anyway.
Its just become so painfully convoluted that It feels like them trying to get to shadowbolt tower is just a side quest now. Hell, I dont think Ive even seen the word "enervation" for 15 chapters. All these major points in the story just become so numerous and overwhelming, that its getting hard just to follow along without having to go back and read other chapters just to see what is actually going on.It seems as if since sanguine died, this story has almost lost direction altogether.

Secondly, the characters are starting to range from bland and forgettable to downright repetitive and annoying. Bj has been stuck in a rut for so long with hating herself and not even wanting to kill ponies anymore that its simply gotten old. I can understand that shes changed from the reckless mare that stepped out of the stable, but she just isnt likeable anymore. As for everyone else, the group has gotten so large that none of the characters really even get much development anymore. Most of the characters just seem flat and built up just to serve a specific purpose in the group, nothing is really changing anymore, except the addition of more characters.

Finally, the legate? Really? At first I thought "Oh, this is going to be a cool fight!" and was glad to read it up until Bj pretty much cut his head off, and he didnt die. I can almost accept the lightning powers and whatnot, with all the strange zebra alchemy, but another invincible character? Overall the story is edging towards the ridiculous. I just cant buy into something like that fitting into fallout equestria. Now if it had slowly eased into the ridiculousness and strange powers, kinda like what mgs 3 did with the cobras, and explained it a bit with others beforehand, it mightve been better. Even a break off of the fic with something really showing the zebra lands for what they really are here wouldve been nice, i know it wouldve been more useful then the stygus arc in the least.

Overall it feels like its supposed to be two or three stories all crammed together into one, with characters being stretched out and used between all of them, creating unneeded and confusing conflict that is just plain convoluted. I almost feel like the peak of the story was when blackjack died. After that it seems like it just goes downhill from there, with every other encounter feeling less and less unique.

Now before you chalk all of this up to hating on PH and somber, this was and still is my absolute favorite story. Somber is probably one of the best writers I know, and I still love going through and rereading, but I just dont want this to take a bad direction and lose its quality before its too late. Im going to read this story to the end no matter what, so you dont have to worry about losing this fan.

Well, a belated welcome to you as well! I'm also a bit indisposed at the moment, with school in a few hours and me needing some sort of sleep, but I'll try to respond to the best of my ability. Apologies for any sort of seemingly angry comment.

Between the remnants, dawn and the harbringers, the goddess, the enclave, and every break off in between

So I think we talked about this a whole lot of threads ago, but The remnants and harbingers will probably be Blackjack's endgame, quite possibly at the same time. The goddess is going to wrap up in a few days in story, comic-book-time notwithstanding. The enclave seem to have this weird on-off relationship with Blackjack depending on the faction, and I think is probably the next target with the shadowbolt tower marker, unless Somber decides to detour into the Society, which is the only faction from the Hoofington Six that hasn't been explored yet. The OIA storyline is pretty much wrapped up for the most part in relation to Psalm and the Marauders, with the last mysteries being what is Horse doing in Redoubt, what Horizons actually does, and how Rampage's story is going to end. Then there are all the minor factions that would assist Blackjack, like the Collegiate, Sand Dogs, and the new 99 AJ Rangers.

As for characters, let's take a look at where they all are:
P-21 is pretty much solid for a character, what with getting through Med-X addiction for the most part, unless drama strikes with him needing it or something. The only development left for him is with Scotch.
Scotch herself has recently defined herself as the architect/engineer, and might still be afraid of giant machines, though not likely, as she seemed fine inside Deus. Man that sounds strange out of context. Repeat comment above about bonding with her dad.
Glory is a bundle of nerves at the moment since her mom is a monster and dad in a coma. But for the most part her character has been exhausted of any mysteries, so either she goes meltdown mode and has to recover from that, or just learns to live with being Rainbow Dash 2.0. I have a feeling that her development will culminate in whatever final showdown she has against her mom.
Lacunae is a few days away from the Trixie explosion, so there's potential for character development / meltdown right there, as KKat never really went into depth on what happened to alicorns after the incident at Maripony(?)
For Rampage, we have most of the core personalities drawn out, so no mysteries there. The only development for her is if she ever finds a way to remove souls within her or to make them be at peace.
Boo is probably the biggest mystery at the moment, being an anomaly with developing character. At this point though she's pretty much a pet with high detection skills. Who knows what Somber will do with her.

I guess I can see your angle on the sudden appearance of a high-power level opponent, but we've been hearing about him for a while, especially with Lancer hinting at him. Now as for the superpowers, I'm waiting for the rewrite, but I think the avatar powers comes from the staff, which could be at a point taken or disabled. For the invincibility, I'm already calling for him to be star clan(Startrekki or something like that) material, especially since I'm recalling the story from Sekashi about the invincible zebra.

Don't worry about stating your opinion too much around here. We're pretty chill about this kind of stuff. Though if you go too far you can always edit it. I'm pretty sure some of us have done that with the most recent chapter.

[O. Hinds]

On Tenpony prostitution, I've tried looking for specifics on the requirements for permanent residency, and been having some trouble finding them. But, it is clear that to become a citizen (or remain one), one needs a means of support. Also, Non-citizens can't operate businesses in Tenpony, so a non-citizen can't be a madam or pimp, and can't operate independently as a prostitute, but I don't see why (based on anything definitely established) a current citizen wouldn't be allowed to support himself as a prostitute, or why an outsider (possibly a prostitute) with the caps to support the citizenship application process couldn't subsequently elect prostitution as a source of income. Granted, vice law could just be a subject that never came up in FoE, unlike Tenpony's laws and customs on banditry, ghouls, and ammunition.

Aye, I was thinking that the most likely path would be someone who's already a citizen (possibly a born citizen who's now old enough to need to look for work to avoid being kicked out). As for vice law, I suppose that there could be moral objections (though that doesn't seem all that likely to be the case in an Equestrian-descended culture), but there's only so much space available in the tower (and foals are, until they grow up, a drain on Tenpony's resources, even if those resources are being drawn from the parents instead of directly from the tower); having trained, equipped prostitutes would combat population growth.

Also, this indicates that the Zebras have Dragonkiller rounds as well, or that they aren't so uncommon as to incite suspicion over their theft by Zebras, or that Trottenheimer is in on the coverup (likely, since he's one of Goldenblood's men) and the type of round used was part of it. Or I guess that a theft of the rounds was fabricated after the fact. Other options?[/quote]

Early Chapter Editing Matters:

Ah, thank you.

[Sindri]

Also, this indicates that the Zebras have Dragonkiller rounds as well, or that they aren't so uncommon as to incite suspicion over their theft by Zebras, or that Trottenheimer is in on the coverup (likely, since he's one of Goldenblood's men) and the type of round used was part of it. Or I guess that a theft of the rounds was fabricated after the fact. Other options?

My guess would be that after Psalm shot Macintosh, Goldenblood faked (or convinced Trottenheimer to fake) a robbery shortly before the shooting. I seem to remember looks being exchanged between Goldy and Psalm that indicated that he'd figured out what happened, but he would think that it would be bad for Equestria for the true events to be public knowledge, Psalm was still useful, and Trottenheimer's reputation was just expendable enough to sacrifice for the "greater good."

[Overthepacific]

[quote="OneMoreDaySK"]

The real problem with all the factions is just that there is so many of them, its almost the same way that the characters were. There are so many different factions to explain that some get forgotten for a while, and others just get boring. I hardly see the point of... i dont even think I remember the name anymore. The society? Whichever one was using slaves for farming. Its just that trying to focus on so may at once leaves out some, which in the end feel like they werent even necessary.

With the characters, I can understand that now they just serve a specific purpose with most of their use fulfilled, but thats really the problem within itself. Instead of creating new exciting conflicts for the characters to deal with between themselves, another character is added. I mean, did they really need a tank? I dont think so. It only makes the enemies have to be that much more powerful, leaving every other fight up to Bj thinking "I dont wanna kill this guy, cause ill hate myself" and I have had enough of that. Its just frustrating to follow all of these characters and start to care for them just for them to be put on a hiatus or end up static.

And with the legate, hes really the straw that broke the camels back. Ive had trouble making my way through chapters ever since the sanguine arc ended because of all this, but I just figured it was going to get better before it got worse. But with the legate, its almost as if the story is shifting from fallout to some convoluted anime that goes on forever. With all of the powers and abilities, with no apparent weakness, I dont think it matters how well its explained, this is just getting silly.

Im not usually used to polite responses, so this is a welcome change I suppose.

[Guest]

... (clipped 'cos this isn't going to be too long a reply I think)

For the different factions, I think a significant thing is that most of them aren't really as much "factions" as the ones in the original FOE. Only a few of them seem to be able to deploy forces outside of (or even within) their own territories at any scale. Essentially, unless they're being interacted with at any given time, they generally aren't all that relevant, because they don't have reach (beyond the standard geopolitical and socioeconomic factors). There are a lot of them because the area isn't controllable in some sense (I think), and because most of them are going to be dealt with at some point (I assume) - just not all at once. So long as there's context given each time they're re-introduced (it can be subtle), it should be 'k. (aside: I need an Applejack skin for Gangplank, in League of Legends, so he can eat apples instead of oranges)

With characters, I don't anticipate that Deus is going to be sticking around too long; though I of course don't know. He doesn't really seem like so much of a character anymore, anyway, inasmuch as a character needs to be a person and Deus' lack of ability to do anything but rumble and "do tank things" sort of limits his personhood. I AM waiting on more interpersonal conflicts, of course; I don't think that the group's foundations need to be put on the line anymore (they seem together enough at this point) but it's always interesting to see disagreement.

With the Legate, I think it's becoming apparent that I just don't watch enough anime to get what's going on here for a bunch of people, sooooo... /shrug? It's being edited, anyway; guess we'll see what it looks like next.

[Sindri]

~snop~

I think that the main problem here is that Project Horizons is more realistic than a typical story. Normally, every event, character, and item must contribute to the plot and any which do not must be pruned or you'll run out of pages/episodes/time/attention from the audience. In this, and in certain other such stories over the years, what we see is less 'the chain of events leading from Blackjack's exit of 99 to her saving of the universe' and more 'Blackjack's life after leaving her Stable, the place in which she lived, and the people she encountered.' It's unfocused, because it's not realistic for everything that happens to work toward a single outcome. It's very long, because the conservation of detail that normally strips out everything that isn't absolutely necessary is much more lax.

And because of these things, it becomes more than a standard predictable collection of tropes and feels much more alive than a normal story. We spend so much time here discussing it because not only is it a vibrant place filled with fascinating things and people, but it's almost as unpredictable as real events; for example we don't know from the start that every item and person mentioned will be a component in major events to come because as much attention is put into the description and characterization of a random moon-dusted mare BJ passes in a hallway as to a stallion who will become a major villain, and newspapers with vital information in them are often passed over by the not-a-smart-pony we're riding in favor of more time spent thinking about booze and guns.

It's certainly not optimally enjoyable for everybody. It wanders from place to place, hundreds of things happen that advance dozens of little stories simultaneously in ways that aren't quite clear, some events seem to be entirely disconnected from the continuity around them... Project Horizons goes against many traditions and conventions of storytelling, traditions which grew because they worked and conventions that most prospective audience members would likely agree with. I know that this story would never have the wide-angle appeal of something normal and straightforward.

But personally? Normal is boring. Even the best written linear stories with the most creative of premises and the deepest of characters bore me to some extent, because I've read enough to know all the tropes, to pick each Chekhov's Gun from the background descriptions and tell you how and when it will be fired, to determine how the story will end before it's halfway finished more often than not. And I enjoy such stories, if they're good enough, but I can't really love them.

This I love. Because even the minor characters feel like people instead of constructs serving the plot Because the locations are alive whether they're the site of something climactic or not. Because the protagonist is a relatable person with a genuine personality instead of a designated hero who wins because the plot demands it. And most of all because the story not only makes me think, but never punishes me for doing so or forces me to suspend disbelief because I thought of a problem the author clearly didn't or logic fell before the necessities of the Plot.

And with the legate, hes really the straw that broke the camels back. Ive had trouble making my way through chapters ever since the sanguine arc ended because of all this, but I just figured it was going to get better before it got worse. But with the legate, its almost as if the story is shifting from fallout to some convoluted anime that goes on forever. With all of the powers and abilities, with no apparent weakness, I dont think it matters how well its explained, this is just getting silly.

The Legate has been mentioned since the earliest days of the story. All of his abilities have ample precedent other than the elemental control, and that had a source named within the same combat. And even without the hints given at his weaknesses during the fight (armor and runes cracking under assault, refusal to expose his helmet to fire even when tactically advantageous to do so, naming connection with Caesar as his source for offensive capabilities, etc.) there's a long distance between 'immortal regenerating elementallist warlord martial artist in magical powered armor' and 'unbeatable.'

And it continues to annoy me when people use the word 'anime' in that way... you realize that it spans about as wide a range of content as 'books' right?

[Snipehamster]

~snop~

I think that the main problem here is that Project Horizons is more realistic than a typical story.

Wat.

If PH were even halfway realistic, half the main characters would be dead or utterly ruined by PTSD by this point. HORIZONS.MOV would probably be more realistic. I'm not arguing in favor of realism, of course; half the appeal of FoE and PH is the fact that they combine disparate fantasy worlds, and a degree of unrealism is both completely acceptable and expected.

As I've pointed out before, PH's issues lie more in presentation, believability and consistency than realism.

[Overthepacific]

@Sindri
My internet decided to scrap my first response so ill try this again.

All of the world building and character introduction as well as all of the random seemingly meaningless insertions were fine in the story before 33. But now all of the static characters and confusing plot points are just weighing down everything else.
Dont get me wrong, all of PH's differences from the norm are what made me love it in the first place, but now that its gotten to the point where I have trouble finding the willpower not to skip over parts of each chapter because of all the unnecessary things. Now ever time a chapter comes out I have to worry about wading through 20,000 something words without anything actually happening. It seems that the story has been on a 15 chapter intermission to me, with everything being stuck in a cycle.

As for the legate, just about everything about him doesnt sit into the fallout universe well. With all of the hints and foreshadowing toward him, I pictured him much more like the legate from new vegas, an extremely powerful warrior with an unbreakable will and unmatchable combat prowess, not an all powerful demigod that controls all of the elements and laughs off decapitation. It wouldve been much better if the Legate had led his cyber zebra army against Bj, or at least have beaten her with simply his skill in combat. This just seems like something out of dragon ball z and not fallout.

My knowledge of anime is very limited. I think I have really only stuck through maybe 3 or 4 different ones, so it seemed fitting for me. Action adventure anime? I dont know. You know what Im trying to get across anyway.

[Overthepacific]

@Overthepacific

Yeah, I just read back through some of the old pages, snipe had some good points. Its a shame that he left, he really couldve helped to turn the story around, but for now I guess well just have to wait and see. If there is still another volume coming up, then id say all hope isn't lost quite yet.

[Snipehamster]

@Overthepacific

Yeah, I just read back through some of the old pages, snipe had some good points. Its a shame that he left, he really couldve helped to turn the story around, but for now I guess well just have to wait and see. If there is still another volume coming up, then id say all hope isn't lost quite yet.

Hey there. I'm not editing any more, but I'm still around and happy to chat. It looks like we share a few opinions on things.

[Overthepacific]

@Overthepacific

Hey there. I'm not editing any more, but I'm still around and happy to chat. It looks like we share a few opinions on things.

That we do. Do you know if anything you actually brought up is being addressed? I know revising a million word fic would be painful, but I think just only the last twenty chapters really need it.

[Sindri]

Wat.

If PH were even halfway realistic, half the main characters would be dead or utterly ruined by PTSD by this point. HORIZONS.MOV would probably be more realistic. I'm not arguing in favor of realism, of course; half the appeal of FoE and PH is the fact that they combine disparate fantasy worlds.

As I've pointed out before, PH's issues lie more in presentation, believability and consistency than realism.

I said 'more than a typical story,' not 'perfectly.' And realism in fantasy or sci fi or really any setting other than the totally mundane needs to be judged within the universe; if magical healing is a thing then what wounds are considered fatal is adjusted. And psychologically speaking, you can't just declare that someone would be broken after a certain event; every person reacts differently, the human mind can adapt to a terrifying array of things, within the setting Friendship can literally be transposed into Magic, and despite all that Blackjack really kind of is ruined by PTSD. The only thing I can come up with that's outside the realms of reality, based on my admittedly limited knowledge of psychology, is if Scotch actually has recovered from her phobia(s) instead of just putting on an act for the benefit of the rest of the party.

As for the legate, just about everything about him doesnt sit into the fallout universe well. With all of the hints and foreshadowing toward him, I pictured him much more like the legate from new vegas, an extremely powerful warrior with an unbreakable will and unmatchable combat prowess, not an all powerful demigod that controls all of the elements and laughs off decapitation. It wouldve been much better if the Legate had led his cyber zebra army against Bj, or at least have beaten her with simply his skill in combat. This just seems like something out of dragon ball z and not fallout.

My knowledge of anime is very limited. I think I have really only stuck through maybe 3 or 4 different ones, so it seemed fitting for me. Action adventure anime? I dont know. You know what Im trying to get across anyway.

That's a sentiment which others have expressed as well. And no, he doesn't fill the same role as Lanius, and might not fit a Fallout setting at all. Though Frank Horrigan from Fo2 comes close, the "genetically engineered cyborg psycho total homicidal maniac" or "ultra super mutant in power armor" who played final boss, laughed off plasma rifle fire, and was reported punching deathclaws in half.

But compared to Chrysalis? The Princesses? Discord? If Caesar was anywhere near Celestia, mystically speaking, and this zebra was endowed with a fraction of his power, I'd honestly expect more than what we've seen. Fo:E is a blending of settings, and the Legate is perfectly within the realms of the combination.

And yeah, I know what you mean, because the majority of people seem to base their understanding of anime entirely on dragonball or naruto or another of those idiotic everlasting shonen. Not sure if that's better or worse than judging the medium solely on sailor moon or tentacle porn or something... I know that those are the ones that more westerners are likely to have heard of, and few people are going to go looking for anything that isn't shown on broadcast on saturday mornings (unless it's porn), and I don't really blame you for it, but it still gives me the urge to tie people to chairs and make them sit through Puella Magi Madoka Magica or Durarara!! or Gosick or something.
Because I keep meeting people who watch bad dubs of shitty shonen and decide that they hate anime, and it's like those kids who come out of school deciding that books are stupid and they hate reading because they despise The Catcher in the Rye (spoiler alert: everyone despises Catcher in the Rye, except maybe for english teachers, and I suspect they're lying about it). But I should shut up now, or at least move this ranting to the chat thread.

[Overthepacific]

I just do not see the Legate as a fitting character. Between the powers weve seen in the show, Commanding lightning and earth, being faster than a tank shell, and shrugging off otherwise extremely lethal wounds just doesn't feel right. Even Chrysalis's powers soaked in what she feeds off of to the extent to beating Celestia herself werent even life threatening. It seems that in this universe, bullets and explosives take precedent over a lot of magical abilities, Lacunae even opted to use a minigun at one point.
I might be able to accept some more minor magical powers like a slower regeneration, or the use of lethal alchemic powders or something that could create fire or thermite or explosions or something could have been in the realm of acceptance, but with everything leading up to it, it just seems to be overpowered and unbelievable.

The only anime that I really ended up loving was full metal alchemist, the original one anyway. I haven't started Brotherhood yet. But its because that one is so clear and concise with its point, all the way till the end, and the journey is amazing.
Most everything else Ive watched has been overly dramatic and convoluted to the point of being unwatchable. I really havent been introduced to much of that world, but most of the ones that I have are ones like that, thats really why I used that example.

[Retl]

I enjoy that I can revisit any given chapter of PH and find some new bit of adventure or character info that I've never noticed before. There's so much to take in.

[Snipehamster]

That we do. Do you know if anything you actually brought up is being addressed? I know revising a million word fic would be painful, but I think just only the last twenty chapters really need it.

To my knowledge, Somber is making revisions to PH54. He has, however, made it emphatically clear to me that revisions of anything before that are completely off the table.

And yeah, I know what you mean, because the majority of people seem to base their understanding of anime entirely on dragonball or naruto or another of those idiotic everlasting shonen.

The whole 'anime' problem is that recently, those idiotic shonen are precisely what PH has begun to resemble. Ever-escalating power levels and absurd, sneering villains that render 90% of the ever-growing cast obsolete simply by existing (the Legate exemplifies this by casually one-shotting each of BJ's party one after another), backdropped by a main plot that moves at a glacial pace.

[O. Hinds]

@Overthepacific:

Offtopic:

[StoneSlinger88]

I believe he used the term 'anime' as a DBZ sense, in that the main enemy gets in absurd power level Goku beats with heart and Vegeta with sheer arrogance. Now don't get me wrong, I loved DBZ, but Durarara is one of my favorites, with FMA: Brotherhood taking the top slot. As for realism, if you're referring to realism as in the world's alive (which you seem to be), then yes PH does a good job of that. Yes, PH can be wandering (I believe Snipe's points come from it being too wandering), but hopefully things start rolling again as we build towards the end. I really do want to see how Somber ties things together.

[Overthepacific]

Somber is making revisions to PH54. He has, however, made it emphatically clear to me that revisions of anything before that are completely off the table.

Damn, thats a shame. I almost feel like I want the story to end at 33, or at afer the sanguine arc at least. The first two volumes made such a good story that I could never abandon it, but three and four need work to really bring it to a coherent state. I wouldnt go as far to suggest a complete deletion, but taking out some unnecessary story arcs and chapters could really help to make this story shine like I know it can.

[Overthepacific]

@Overthepacific:

Offtopic:

Ive seen a couple of episodes of Ghost in the shell and thought it was awesome. I might give the other ones a chance as well. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Leoman]

Boo reminds me of Nina from Fullmetal Alchemist. She should have a bigger role than that of a pet horse.

[Overthepacific]

Boo reminds me of Nina from Fullmetal Alchemist. She should have a bigger role than that of a pet horse.

And I had just forgotten about that episode too, I never asked for these manly tears.

[Sindri]

I just do not see the Legate as a fitting character. Between the powers weve seen in the show, Commanding lightning and earth, being faster than a tank shell, and shrugging off otherwise extremely lethal wounds just doesn't feel right. Even Chrysalis's powers soaked in what she feeds off of to the extent to beating Celestia herself werent even life threatening. It seems that in this universe, bullets and explosives take precedent over a lot of magical abilities, Lacunae even opted to use a minigun at one point.
I might be able to accept some more minor magical powers like a slower regeneration, or the use of lethal alchemic powders or something that could create fire or thermite or explosions or something could have been in the realm of acceptance, but with everything leading up to it, it just seems to be overpowered and unbelievable.

Machines have two primary advantages over magic: first, they can be used by anyone with little training, so a recruit with a rifle is as lethal as a unicorn who's trained to cast magic bullet spells for years. Second, every time you cast a spell draws from your personal energy reserves and tires you out or even risks burnout, and injury or distraction or drugs can interfere with the process, while a machine will use its own energy and perform predictably under almost any circumstance. So yes, ponies use guns instead of spells because it's a lot easier to do, and Lacunae carried a minigun for efficiency's sake (and as a little bit of rebellion against the Goddess, who's big on magical supremacy). But magic offers a lot of possibilities that tech doesn't. First is flexibility and reaction time to unpredicted circumstances (as Red Eye's dinner party demonstrated), but top-tier performance is another big thing. Celestia and Luna could maintain a shield more powerful than anything produced technologically outside of maybe the Hoofington Core, and I think we can all agree that the tokomare is cheating. Point is, guns and grenades certainly rule most day-to-day conflicts, but the highest powers on either side will likely be pure magic.

The only anime that I really ended up loving was full metal alchemist, the original one anyway. I haven't started Brotherhood yet. But its because that one is so clear and concise with its point, all the way till the end, and the journey is amazing.
Most everything else Ive watched has been overly dramatic and convoluted to the point of being unwatchable. I really havent been introduced to much of that world, but most of the ones that I have are ones like that, thats really why I used that example.

Yeah, FMA is pretty wonderful. And, from what I've watched, a lot closer to the norm than the likes of DBZ. The majority of anime take 12-25 episodes to tell a story, instead of just going on forever because it keeps making money off children who don't know any better. I have yet to find one longer than FMA:Brotherhood (64 episodes IIRC?) which has any value whatsoever. I can recommend a bundle if you want, but it should be in the chat thread or PMs.

[Overthepacific]

Point is, guns and grenades certainly rule most day-to-day conflicts, but the highest powers on either side will likely be pure magic.

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

Point is, guns and grenades certainly rule most day-to-day conflicts, but the highest powers on either side will likely be pure magic.

Spoiler:

As has been stated many times here, Vitiosus is far from invincible.

[Overthepacific]

As has been stated many times here, Vitiosus is far from invincible.

I think hes invincible enough to warrant these kind of questions, the point is that if he had these powers at his disposal, why wasn't he raiding through equestria tearing everything to pieces? Bullets and tanks cant stop him, it seems like with that kind of power being present, the ponies wouldve been the first to drop the megaspells, even sooner maybe. Ridiculous powers and confusing introduction aside, he doesnt feel like he has a place in the story right now.

[Guest]

Point is, guns and grenades certainly rule most day-to-day conflicts, but the highest powers on either side will likely be pure magic.

Spoiler:

I'm still not sure he's got anything like the powers he claims to have, tbh. What's been shown is pretty intense - nothing hard to deal with, given a bit of thought and effort, but not something you'd want to go hoof-to-hoof with - but based on what Somber said in the spoiler, I don't think I'd trust that he can do everything he says he can do, and certainly not without limits. For instance: Celestia moves the sun, and Luna the moon, but neither seemed to be able to weaponize their respective fields without aid from tech/magic from others.

I think it's all to do with mantles of power, in a sense, if you've heard of the concept (Dresden files, ho!). Originally, the mantle of power for moving the sun and moon fell on the unicorn nation (mythologically), but at some point they came to rest on the alicorns Luna and Celestia. My personal little theory... oh wait, dude, the/a Legate is in the original FOE (search "legatus legionis"). From context, he appears to have been pro-war with the ponies, and is described as worse than the Caesar. Anyway, personal little theory, what if the Legate is sort of analogous to the projects the ponies had going - essentially, a replacement Caesar. All that tech and magic funneled into him, allowing him to weaponize the power of the caesar in the same way that Celestia-1 weaponized the sun, or that Project Horizons may or may not weaponize the moon. It would not really surprise me if he was scheming even during the war to bring this about; that would explain the zebra sabotage of the peace conference, when it seemed like the (original) Caesar would have been amenable to the idea. He may have even had the Caesar killed somehow. Anyway, at some point, that mantle passed to him, potentially after the apocalypse.

We do know that the power, if it even exists, passes from zebra to zebra. Caesars were originally supposed to be the best and wisest diplomats, not unlike the role of the Princesses.

I dunno, the more I look at this, the more I see some sort of conspiracy reaching way, way back, mirroring much of what went on in wartime Equestria. While I agree that this is not the focus of the story, it does seem to fit with its themes, and is starting to become interesting the more I poke at it.

Random thoughts:
-Multiple legates existed at any one time. Was Vitosius alive at that point, or is he merely heir to all this junk?
-Honorius, a legate during the war, is associated with the Brood of Coyotl, which are regarded as abominable by some zebras. Same guy as above.
-We know that underneath the surface, there is some internal turmoil amongst the zebras. Otherwise, we wouldn't have defectors in the first place. As Goldenblood says, to paraphrase: the zebras invented shadowy politics. Different tribes, elders, legates, the Caesar himself - all have different interests.

Anyway, yeah, that's more or less all I got so far. It's surely a WIP at best, but yeah. I'm pretty certain at this point that there's both more and less to this guy than has been revealed, aaaaand while I wasn't all that interested in him or the zebras before (sorry, Hinds!), I kinda now am.

edit: I haven't gone delving into CTRL+F powered conspiracy theory mode for a while now; feels good, man!

[Overthepacific]

What doesnt sit well with me is that all of the powers he displayed wouldve felt more at home in an ancient zebra legend instead of the actual battle. The worst part about it is that it couldve had the potential for a good enemy, albeit a bit unnecessary at this point in the story. Instead it simply turned into, and I hate to keep using this example, a dragon ball z fight scene where he pulls random, unforeseen and mystical powers seemingly out of nowhere. It makes me question why there was even a zebra army there, or why introduce this new villain arc when you were just trying to deal with lighthooves?

Overall it still doesnt feel like a good part of PH and it only seems to add to the everlasting conflicts that never seem to get resolved.

[Ketchup]

Overall it still doesnt feel like a good part of PH and it only seems to add to the everlasting conflicts that never seem to get resolved.

I've noticed that a lot of people are beginning to, or have already decided, that the growing amount of side plots is tiresome or some other unpleasant adjective. This is understandable, but the stacking of overlapping plotlines makes me even more interested to read upcoming chapters. I'm looking forward to the resolutions and how Somber will handle them to avoid rushing, hopefully.

And I bid you welcome, Lurker.

[Overthepacific]

I'm looking forward to the resolutions and how Somber will handle them to avoid rushing, hopefully.

After the last twenty chapters, I think that attempting to avoid
rushing is becoming a problem. I would be fine if many of these
underlying plot lines were tied up within a couple of chapters, but they
arent. Many are put off and forgotten only to be brought up when Ive
all but forgotten about them. I know I dont want somber to rush into the
ending and have it feel lacking like kkat did, but I fear that when the
end comes, all these other side plots will still be all but forgotten
and unresolved, just like they are now. Not to mention that I would have
to take notes just to really keep track of every single different issue
just to stay up to date with them and be able to keep it all
understandable.

And I bid you welcome, Lurker.

Heh, thank you.

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