Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Guest]

In this environment, I can see where people wouldnt be understanding all of the hate, but there aren't a lot of people actually here honestly, so for sheer numbers, the negative seems to be winning out to me.

Next, I already went over this. I really care about this story, and I dont want to see it dig itself into a deeper hole than it already is. I'm not going to leave this story, and I'm not going to stop voicing my opinion. I dont care how many times it takes, If I dont voice my complaints, and just leave, well, it isn't going to help anyone at all, and thats all I wanna do is help.

Discord was such a cop out it hurt. Sure him saving them was noble, but he is not going to be trapped by a pile of rubble. With all of his powers, there is just no chance of him actually staying down there and not coming out to cause problems. But thats what happened, the topic was avoided and the character was thrown out. Thats why I think it was a cop out.

It's not that I don't understand the hate, it's that it's a general truth that people who are irritated with something will be significantly more vocal than those who like something or are just "fine" with it - so, yeah, it makes sense that there's a ton of anecdotal evidence of vocal irritation, but I do have a hard time believing that anything approaching a majority of people would be leaving the story over the last chapter. (If I let my inner cynic out for a moment, I'd say that a few babbies on /mlp/ happened to have nothing to hate since S3 is over and it's not popular to hate Twilicorn anymore, so they got a hate train rolling on the chapter that gathered steam because, as said, nothing else is happening - but this is why I don't let that guy out very often. For all his understanding of human interactions, he's paranoid.)

I get that, I really do. But if Somber has already said that she's not going to go back and perform radical changes to the last half of the story, I'm not sure what continuing to advocate that as the only way forward for the story will really accomplish. I mean, yeah, if you don't believe her, that makes sense, but it's like... we've all been heard, and nobody's really saying anything new or recommending anything new, so what's the point of hammering it in? And, not to put to fine a point on it, I don't think this is exactly helpful for Somber anymore. Were it me on the receiving end, I'd feel a bit discouraged after a week or two of this, and I think I'm pretty damn good at taking criticism. I can't speak for Somber, mind you, and she has historically sometimes been more resilient than people think, but, well, yeah.

I don't think I'm gonna have much more to add to this discussion after this post (don't anticipate it, anyway), so I'm gonna leave off with a note on how to perform constructive criticism after having an initial suggestion shut down: work with what ya got. A lot of things in this story that you may or may not like are here to stay, as of yet; think about how you could make them work for you, and talk about that. I wouldn't say that what's been published is set in stone, because it's obviously not, but consider trying an attitude of something like, "Okay, here's what we've got now; where should we go with it, and where don't we want it taken?" It's like... constructive criticism squared, 'cos you're actually helping construct stuff. Not sure it'll work for everyone, or anyone, I've found it useful; maybe others will have the same experience.

Re: Discord -
Oooooooh, I (and several others, apparently) read your words as "oh, awesome, free Discord and then immediately trap/kill him again - what a cop out!" Because, y'know, yeah, that would have been a huge cop out. I don't feel that freeing him was a cop out, though. Currently, it's an unresolved thread, but I hardly got the impression that Discord's going to go around inflicting pain and misery now that he's out; I wouldn't call him "reformed," but he was at least touched. As a thread, I'd put him with Xanthe's crew - not in need of further exploration, but if he comes back, that could be cool. It's like Trixie in the show after her first episode (more so, even, since her second episode was actually foreshadowed in the first); he could come back, or not. It's something that could be resolved, but doesn't need it (IMO, anyway). Hell, if it doesn't get resolved, I reckon it'd be a subject ripe for another sidefic: what did Discord done do after gaining his freedom? How'd he interact with Fluttershy, if they met again? Did he fight during the war with the Enclave at all? Interesting topics, but not necessarily ones that PH needs to explore.

edit: or I might be misreading again! Disregard if so!

[Quotidian]

I've been staying out of the discussion because frankly I don't have anything to say beyond what's already been hashed out, but I've got to drop in and second what Colbalt said.

[WavemasterRyx]

You know, I've been staying out of this conversation too... because all the people pretending to be fans of this story that really aren't have been making me so depressed that I didn't even feel like drawing something for Boo's birthday.

I've already sent a message to Somber, but I'll say it here too - I love Project Horizons. I've always enjoyed it, and I will continue to support it in any way I can.
Those of you who don't like it, kindly do us all a favor and just stop reading.

There, now that that's out of the way, I'm going to go out to lunch for my mom's birthday, then come back and try and draw some squishy, adorable Boo.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

well 54 was nice... typos aside. sorry i did not keep a record of all the unusual grammar I found.

[Overthepacific]

Discord was such a cop out it hurt. Sure him saving them was noble, but he is not going to be trapped by a pile of rubble. With all of his powers, there is just no chance of him actually staying down there and not coming out to cause problems. But thats what happened, the topic was avoided and the character was thrown out. Thats why I think it was a cop out.

Right. You think that a little pile of rocks is going to stop Discord? If it causes any problems for him at all, he'll just have to rest for a time to get back enough strength to teleport out. Or turn the rocks into cheese wheels and eat them, or something.

This guy knows where its at.

...Okay, I'm confused. You say that it was a copout that Discord was trapped, then agree with me that he wasn't trapped without apparently changing your position. What?

I thought you were saying he shouldnt have been trapped, as well. I thought that wasnt a correct direction with what was happening.

Where in the story did it say he got out? I am almost positive that it said he was going to be trapped in the rubble.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

Eh discord is just being discord, odds are he's managed to befriend or hijack a super sentinel or ultra sentinel any way I can see him piloting it like a mecha suit since hes so low powered hes tiny

[Overthepacific]

It's not that I don't understand the hate, it's that it's a general truth that people who are irritated with something will be significantly more vocal than those who like something or are just "fine" with it - so, yeah, it makes sense that there's a ton of anecdotal evidence of vocal irritation, but I do have a hard time believing that anything approaching a majority of people would be leaving the story over the last chapter. (If I let my inner cynic out for a moment, I'd say that a few babbies on /mlp/ happened to have nothing to hate since S3 is over and it's not popular to hate Twilicorn anymore, so they got a hate train rolling on the chapter that gathered steam because, as said, nothing else is happening - but this is why I don't let that guy out very often. For all his understanding of human interactions, he's paranoid.)

I get that, I really do. But if Somber has already said that she's not going to go back and perform radical changes to the last half of the story, I'm not sure what continuing to advocate that as the only way forward for the story will really accomplish. I mean, yeah, if you don't believe her, that makes sense, but it's like... we've all been heard, and nobody's really saying anything new or recommending anything new, so what's the point of hammering it in? And, not to put to fine a point on it, I don't think this is exactly helpful for Somber anymore. Were it me on the receiving end, I'd feel a bit discouraged after a week or two of this, and I think I'm pretty damn good at taking criticism. I can't speak for Somber, mind you, and she has historically sometimes been more resilient than people think, but, well, yeah.

I don't think I'm gonna have much more to add to this discussion after this post (don't anticipate it, anyway), so I'm gonna leave off with a note on how to perform constructive criticism after having an initial suggestion shut down: work with what ya got. A lot of things in this story that you may or may not like are here to stay, as of yet; think about how you could make them work for you, and talk about that. I wouldn't say that what's been published is set in stone, because it's obviously not, but consider trying an attitude of something like, "Okay, here's what we've got now; where should we go with it, and where don't we want it taken?" It's like... constructive criticism squared, 'cos you're actually helping construct stuff. Not sure it'll work for everyone, or anyone, I've found it useful; maybe others will have the same experience.

Re: Discord -
Oooooooh, I (and several others, apparently) read your words as "oh, awesome, free Discord and then immediately trap/kill him again - what a cop out!" Because, y'know, yeah, that would have been a huge cop out. I don't feel that freeing him was a cop out, though. Currently, it's an unresolved thread, but I hardly got the impression that Discord's going to go around inflicting pain and misery now that he's out; I wouldn't call him "reformed," but he was at least touched. As a thread, I'd put him with Xanthe's crew - not in need of further exploration, but if he comes back, that could be cool. It's like Trixie in the show after her first episode (more so, even, since her second episode was actually foreshadowed in the first); he could come back, or not. It's something that could be resolved, but doesn't need it (IMO, anyway). Hell, if it doesn't get resolved, I reckon it'd be a subject ripe for another sidefic: what did Discord done do after gaining his freedom? How'd he interact with Fluttershy, if they met again? Did he fight during the war with the Enclave at all? Interesting topics, but not necessarily ones that PH needs to explore.

edit: or I might be misreading again! Disregard if so!

And I thought I was wordy.

Well, I know a lot of people are no longer fans. It doesnt really matter how many, it's just signifying the problems.

I've been at this for what, three days? I'm not just repeating the same old things over and over again. If it were me, I'd want as much critique as I could possibly answer. I only want to make things better. Just because you dont think it will work isnt going to make me stop. I've also said everything I have, not only because I feel they should change in the past story, but so that they may be taken into consideration in the future during the writing process. This isn't as devoid of reason as you think it is.

... because all the people pretending to be fans of this
story that really aren't have been making me so depressed that I didn't
even feel like drawing something for Boo's birthday.

Those of you who don't like it, kindly do us all a favor and just stop reading.

Are you implying that you want me gone?

If you would read back, Im not a "Pretend fan", I care about this story to, I care enough to be able to point out its flaws so that maybe it can strive to seek the perfection that I know it deserves.

Im not going to stop reading because you take offense to my opinions, I'm not going to stop voicing my thoughts because you want me gone either.

[O. Hinds]

You know, I've been staying out of this conversation too... because all the people pretending to be fans of this story that really aren't have been making me so depressed that I didn't even feel like drawing something for Boo's birthday.

I've already sent a message to Somber, but I'll say it here too - I love Project Horizons. I've always enjoyed it, and I will continue to support it in any way I can.
Those of you who don't like it, kindly do us all a favor and just stop reading.

There, now that that's out of the way, I'm going to go out to lunch for my mom's birthday, then come back and try and draw some squishy, adorable Boo.

This discussion interfered with Boo's birthday? Okay, my irritation with it just shot up several notches. I'm now joining the people saying "Somber gets the idea already; you can stop now."

[Overthepacific]

This discussion interfered with Boo's birthday? Okay, my irritation with it just shot up several notches. I'm now joining the people saying "Somber gets the idea already; you can stop now."

Im discussing as people bring things up.
Just because it is irritating doesnt mean it isn't needed.

[Snipehamster]

Somewhat relevant: There's currently a discussion of Project Horizons' pros and cons going on at FimFic as well.

[Overthepacific]

Somewhat relevant: There's currently a discussion of Project Horizons' pros and cons going on at FimFic as well.

I read through a lot of that. They have a lot of understandable opinions and frankly, I can agree with a lot of them.

There is one that I read that I do not agree with at all though. And its the one whoever said about somber trying to out do the grimdarkness in each chapter.

This is almost the most understandable thing about the wasteland. The further you go into the hell on earth equestria, the worse it is going to get. This is one of the best things about Horizons, even after 33. Things are just getting darker and more violent because thats how the wasteland works, it isnt going to be all sunshine and rainbows. The war changed that from the original storyline of FiM.

The increasing grimdark is almost a necessity, and it makes the story a whole lot better if you ask me.

Im still reading through some of it, so something else may come up as well.

[Retl]

The further you go into the hell on earth equestria, the worse it is going to get.

Come to think, does Tartarus still exist in Project Horizons?

[Overthepacific]

Come to think, does Tartarus still exist in Project Horizons?

That's a good question. I wonder if anyone has written a fic about it yet.
Shit Retl, you give me the best ideas for fics. I kinda want to start one about that. I even started assigning characters and roles and backstories, wtf.

EDIT: In Project Horizons? was it ever a part of it in the first place?

[Retl]

I don't believe it's ever been mentioned in Fallout: Equestria, or Project Horizons, but it seemed probable that it would also exist in those universes with the whole Equestria part.

[Overthepacific]

I don't believe it's ever been mentioned in Fallout: Equestria, or Project Horizons, but it seemed probable that it would also exist in those universes with the whole Equestria part.

I suppose its that because at the time of its introduction in the FiM universe, both stories were well on their way to what they are now. In fact, I think the original was done, or almost done anyway. I guess the major inclusion of tartarus wouldnt be necessary at the points we are at now, but mostly just in these stories. In the FoE universe, I'm sure there is room for that concept to grow into something good.

[Caoimhe]

Somewhat relevant: There's currently a discussion of Project Horizons' pros and cons going on at FimFic as well.

Man, I hate to criticize people for "not getting it" but in some of those guys' personal synopsis of characters to prove points of criticism... they don't get it. A lot of folks seem to actually only want two dimensional characters with only physical motivations. The absolute main reason I love PH is because the characters actually have brains and psychological depth. This may sound pretentious, but maybe the problem exists with other pony fanfiction in general. There's a lot of characters that only exist to do things and accomplish a goal and when they overstay their welcome in a story, it's quite evident. Many of the fans of said stories seem to only want face value action in their plot and when stuff doesn't happen in expected ways, it looks boring to them or "wrong."

For instance, someone there describes Blackjack based on her mission in PH. This isn't a character description, this is plot. You can't fault a character or the author writing the character when the plot doesn't go the way you expect. Life doesn't follow a predictable and simple A to B structure. People question Blackjack not outright murdering certain ponies and find fault in it. This is readers failing to understand the character which is quite strange because it's in fuckin' first person. You should know what she's thinking. People criticize that there's "too many sympathetic villains." Well, no shit. There's not a lot of real people who are 100% evil. In even the trashiest films, sometimes even the biggest horrible evildoer has a love interest who obviously sees something positive in them.

That's the point a lot of these dudes fail to see: Somber went out of his way to create real fuckin' people in a horribly bleak world that react to situations (for the most part) like real people. A bunch of these overly critical readers want stereotypical good vs evil motivated characters which can't exist in the morally ambiguous setting that PH exists in. Vanilla FoE in many ways failed to realize this in the world it created so Somber is trying to show it.

If you can't see plot points beyond "why aren't they doing x at y yet," of course you're going to have problems since you're probably used to a lot of amateur writers that have more shallow, easy to identify with characters with more transparent motivations.

Granted that's not everyone's criticisms but a fucking ton of them are.

[Sindri]

Somewhat relevant: There's currently a discussion of Project Horizons' pros and cons going on at FimFic as well.

Man, I hate to criticize people for "not getting it" but in some of those guys' personal synopsis of characters to prove points of criticism... they don't get it.

I'm sure there are valid arguments in that thread somewhere, but I haven't found them yet. We've got the people who wanted 2D characters without any personality or motivation on a simple linear plotline, we've got people paying little enough attention that they still think Goldenblood is omnipotent, we've got people complaining about angst and saying that it's not grimdark enough in the same breath, we've got one person claiming to have read the first 43 chapters but then quit because they heard someone say that Blackjack lost her horn later and that was just too sad for them, we've got dozens of people citing jokes and insults made by others as if they were factual accounts even when those contradict what actually happened in the story, multiple people saying 'I haven't read it but somebody put it in the hall of shame in 4chan therefore it must suck,' at least one extended flamewar over somebody not realizing the difference between a literary deus ex machina and Deus' name... I would try to find the decent arguments, or maybe even join in, but I have a headache and there's just too much stupid for me to dig through.

This is why I've never considered wide range appeal to be a good thing in a work. 90% of the people out there are probably not worth having in your audience, and anything written to appeal to the masses is probably something I'll hate.

[Caoimhe]

I don't know how people can complain about angst when the story is narrated by an insecure manic depressive with a traumatic childhood born in a confined caste-based autocracy

I'm not sure I understand how one or many people on 4chan disliking something makes it bad.

They're idiots who only want to see blood and guts and their favourite ponies in a video game setting, none of this shit that requires "thinking" and "understanding." 4chan thinks anything with depth is "for faggots." It's a wonder how pony even became a thing there.

[jacky2734]

I'm not sure I understand how one or many people on 4chan disliking something makes it bad.

Huh, I thought it was general consensus that if 4chan hates something, there's a good chance that that work is actually good... Unless it's the Twilight Saga.

[Overthepacific]

This is why I've never considered wide range appeal to be a good thing in a work. 90% of the people out there are probably not worth having in your audience, and anything written to appeal to the masses is probably something I'll hate.

90% seems to be a bit high and cynical, dont you think?
I dont think its as much about the target appeal, as much as it is having it be enjoyable for everyone in the first place. There are a lot of idiots out there, but that doesnt mean that having a story only appeal to 10% of all the people who read it is a good thing. There are always going to be complaints, but overall appeal is something in quality, not a target demographic.

I'd go as far as using friendship is magic itself. That wasn't meant to have a large range of appeal outside of little girls, but it was made with a level and quality that it appealed far beyond the demographic. I'd say that just about 70-80% of people who actually watch it are going to like it. But that isn't the case because some people go into it with the predisposition that "this is a show for little girls" and "this is gay".

[Overthepacific]

They're idiots who only want to see blood and guts and their favourite ponies in a video game setting, none of this shit that requires "thinking" and "understanding." 4chan thinks anything with depth is "for faggots." It's a wonder how pony even became a thing there.

Hey, that isnt entirely true. I will concede, that many of the users of that website are either trolls or have the mentality of a 12 year old, but that doesnt mean that everything that comes out of it should be completely disregarded as bullshit.

[Caoimhe]

If PH didn't revolve around pony, it'd probably have tons and tons more fans but pony is the entry point and most of the fandom is fucking stupid (yes I'm still new to all this and am just discovering this, woo me) so you're going to see a lot of dumb shit.

Don't hurt me, but it seems that most of the creative work that branches outside core pony involves one thing only - video games. I realize it's hypocritical to say since, well, FALLOUT Equestria but for a fandom that prides itself on incredible creativity, its focus is extremely narrow - mainly in nerdy hobbies.

[Derpmind]

Please someone tell me they're willing to go in that thread and say some stuff. I can hold my own in arguments, but some of you are so much better at discussion than I am. I neeeeeed to say something to try and get them to re-examine their damn overly opinionated opinions, but I also know I'm probably not the best person to do that.

Yeah, ok, anyone who says anything there's going to get slammed, but I really feel the need to say something and I sometimes screw up completely.

[Overthepacific]

Please someone tell me they're willing to go in that thread and say some stuff. I can hold my own in arguments, but some of you are so much better at discussion than I am. I neeeeeed to say something to try and get them to re-examine their damn overly opinionated opinions, but I also know I'm probably not the best person to do that.

Yeah, ok, anyone who says anything there's going to get slammed, but where I'd fall to pieces...

Jump in, me and kip are already involved.

[Caoimhe]

Edit: ehhh, my personal gripes with 4chan don't really have to do with anything.

For content: I think part of my enjoyment of PH has to do with no understanding of a bulk of the source material its based on. Like Kips, I hate anime so I don't see anime in certain situations. I don't really play video games so I don't see certain video game stuff or direct Fallout references. However I read a lot and enjoy films with lots of depth so my observations come from seeing the world come to life more than nitpicking particulars. Geez I sound full of myself.

[Overthepacific]

If PH didn't revolve around pony, it'd probably have tons and tons more fans but pony is the entry point and most of the fandom is fucking stupid (yes I'm still new to all this and am just discovering this, woo me) so you're going to see a lot of dumb shit.

Hmm,I dont know if I wouldnt go as far as most of the fandom, but I really cant argue with that.

Don't hurt me, but it seems that most of the creative work that branches outside core pony involves one thing only - video games. I realize it's hypocritical to say since, well, FALLOUT Equestria but for a fandom that prides itself on incredible creativity, its focus is extremely narrow - mainly in nerdy hobbies.

I really disagree with that one. Video games are just a small break off of all the creativity I've seen from this fandom. We seem to see that a lot because it is more interesting and relatable, and seems to circulate a lot more in the more "nerdy" portion of the fandom. But for overall content, I dont think that it is the vast majority is actually video games.

[Caoimhe]

I think my problem is using Equestria Daily as 90% of my frame of reference. There's a lot of video game stuff that makes it there.

[Overthepacific]

Geez I sound full of myself.

No more than the rest of us.

[Overthepacific]

I think my problem is using Equestria Daily as 90% of my frame of reference. There's a lot of video game stuff that makes it there.

The only time I go to eqd is to find an episode link that actually works. That website has been overrun by a more... I dont know what to call them, but I dont really like it anymore. Plus now the content amount has shot through the roof, so keeping up with everything is near impossible.

[Sindri]

90% seems to be a bit high and cynical, dont you think?

I have never claimed to not be a cynical bastard. But the number seems accurate from all the people I've encountered over the years.

I tend to follow a simple philosophy in life: 90% of everything is shit. Literature, hobbies, vacation spots, websites... but especially people. If you put me with ten randomly selected people, I will probably hate nine of them.
Among the remaining 10%, 90% of those (9% of the total) are tolerable. People that aren't unpleasant to be around and might be fun in the right activity or setting, activities that are decent for passing the time but not very productive, books that don't have much value to them but aren't bad, etc.
90% of the remainder (.9% of total) is pretty cool. 90% of that remainder (.09%) is fucking awesome. And it keeps going up in increasingly small fractions until you run out of sample set.

And it sound like a kinda shitty outlook on life, but when you think it through to the natural extension it's actually very optimistic. Because of the seven billion people on this world, I'd probably hate 6,300,000,000 of them. I'd only tolerate 630 million of them. But 63 million are pretty cool. And seven million people are various levels of amazing and wonderful.
I think that a planet with seven million amazing, wonderful people on it is a pretty cool place to live, don't you? Certainly worth putting up with six billion morons for a while.

But it's also why I don't waste my time on sites like 4chan. When the shit is entirely unfiltered, only one post in a hundred has any value. Even in a place like FiMfiction, where the worse half has been eliminated, that's forty shit posts and nine useless ones for every good piece.
The point of the internet, in my opinion, is to simultaneously expand the sample set of people to several million and sort them by interests, personalities, and intellects; while geographically restricted groups like at a school or workplace inevitably contain a high fraction of shitheads, a good forum rarely contains anyone I really hate and usually has several people I end up loving.

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