Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Kippershy]

Yeah, I admit it would be nice to see them come back up in-story.
When was the last time they were even mentioned in-story? I can't differentiate between these forums and the actual story these days because it's become too long and complex to keep track of details like that.

[Sindri]

I see where you're coming from Kipper, but two points you may not have thought of:

First, the Enclave. Blackjack has a very limited frame of time in which to stop a brilliant sociopath with multiple functional missiles and a bioweapon which could end what's left of sentient life in Equestria. Said sociopath is airborne, Blackjack is very much not. And she lacks a means to take to the sky in anything resembling a timely fashion unless she recruits a bundle of alicorns, a high level zebra alchemist, or a full grown dragon. The Society, on the other hand, should still have the airships we saw in Sweet and Elite.

Second, the Society are technically slavers. But they aren't slavers for the evulz. They aren't slavers because it was easier to sell a fraction of the population into torture and rape than to survive on their own. Hell, the average serf in the Society's lands probably lives safer and more comfortably than the majority of free wastelanders. From what we've heard of them, they're what Red Eye's civilization was meant to become, albeit on a smaller scale. The Society isn't just a problem that Blackjack will be compelled to solve with copious amounts of bloodshed; it's almost certainly going to force her to rework her entire worldview.

And given their proximity to the borderline of the morality scale, anypony clever enough to set that system up and make it work would probably consider one little dirigible a small price to pay to get Security on their side. Or at least to leave them to their own devices instead of going all liberty and death on them.

[Derpmind]

So guys, I think I've got a good posibility on what Lacunae's betrayal is. I've been kinda indecisive over whether to post it or not, since I've made some predictions that I decided not to post before that ended up being really close to the mark. I can't get a good read on how likely or unlikely this is, but I do think that it's a possibility that most haven't considered, if anyone at all. So I'm gonna put it in spoiler tags, and unless the general consensus is that it's just too unlikely, then please put discussion about it under spoiler tags too.

Spoiler:

[Train Dodger]

The Society isn't just a problem that Blackjack will be compelled to solve with copious amounts of bloodshed; it's almost certainly going to force her to rework her entire worldview.

And given their proximity to the borderline of the morality scale, anypony clever enough to set that system up and make it work would probably consider one little dirigible a small price to pay to get Security on their side. Or at least to leave them to their own devices instead of going all liberty and death on them.

There's another thing I might add.

Spoiler:

[Kippershy]

So guys, I think I've got a good posibility on what Lacunae's betrayal is. I've been kinda indecisive over whether to post it or not, since I've made some predictions that I decided not to post before that ended up being really close to the mark. I can't get a good read on how likely or unlikely this is, but I do think that it's a possibility that most haven't considered, if anyone at all. So I'm gonna put it in spoiler tags, and unless the general consensus is that it's just too unlikely, then please put discussion about it under spoiler tags too.

Spoiler:

See, I don't understand how that would be considered betrayal. Mind explaining?

[Sindri]

So guys, I think I've got a good posibility on what Lacunae's betrayal is. I've been kinda indecisive over whether to post it or not, since I've made some predictions that I decided not to post before that ended up being really close to the mark. I can't get a good read on how likely or unlikely this is, but I do think that it's a possibility that most haven't considered, if anyone at all. So I'm gonna put it in spoiler tags, and unless the general consensus is that it's just too unlikely, then please put discussion about it under spoiler tags too.

Spoiler:

See, I don't understand how that would be considered betrayal. Mind explaining?

Spoiler:

[Overthepacific]

I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion.. but in a way, I'd prefer it if Somber left the Society untouched.

Blackjack going through the hoof and fixing every issue in every corner of it by herself seems too much for one pony alone to do, for starters.
I mean, I'm willing to forgive that because it is Project Horizons, that's what the story is about and what it does.
Still, it'd be nice to see she's not capable of changing the whole wasteland (or wouldn't be given enough time, ammo and metal/gems to eat) by herself.

I wouldnt say to leave them completely untouched. They are still a major faction in the hoof we have barely even seen. I think it would be interesting to at least go into a little detail about it. However, I completely agree that this isnt a conflict that needs to start in the story at this time. I would like to delve into that portion of this world, but I do not want any more nonsensical side plotlines that are never going to get resolved, especially when we've already gone through the slaver thing once.

The other thing is although what the Society are doing is indeed wrong of them, evil even, they're still providing fresh, radiation free food to the wasteland, right?
I might be wrong, they might not sell their goods, but for some reason or another I think they do sell what they don't need, albeit at prices that would make most scavengers eyes water to see.

I wouldnt call them evil. They took the slaves from horrible, abusive environments, and gave them fresh food and a safe place to stay. Given how bad the wasteland can be, I wouldnt be surprised if some of those slaves were to put themselves into that situation just to be able to have a piece of the life they can offer. Though, I dont know all that much about the living conditions they put their slaves through, so it still could be up for debate, but I would assume it has many times better than the likes of red eye.

My final point against it would be this:

It would be taking away from the story at this point, IMO, because we're finally getting close to endgame. To have Blackjack now know how serious not only EC-1101 is but also that Project Horizons is coming up and it's damn well important in some horrible way, as welll as having this super-"badass" zebra god of war in the works now too...
Yeah, she's got to get her act together and focus on what's truly important at this point.

The Enclave are still important, in my mind. What Lighthooves is planning would kill countless thousands of innocent pegasai and the threat is huge.
However, the Society are benign. Yes they're bad, but they're nowhere near Red Eye levels of slavery.


Project Horizons should start to become her biggest concern now, the whole Enclave thing being the last side-quest she's got time to deal with.

This I agree with completely. The price of seeing into the life of the society would probably be having BlackJack freak out and do something irrational to start up a conflict, which will only add to the already increasing weight. If thats the price it would have to pay, then maybe the society really should be left out.

[Overthepacific]

So guys, I think I've got a good posibility on what Lacunae's betrayal is. I've been kinda indecisive over whether to post it or not, since I've made some predictions that I decided not to post before that ended up being really close to the mark. I can't get a good read on how likely or unlikely this is, but I do think that it's a possibility that most haven't considered, if anyone at all. So I'm gonna put it in spoiler tags, and unless the general consensus is that it's just too unlikely, then please put discussion about it under spoiler tags too.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Icy Shake]

I think a Society run-in could be an opportunity for her to exercise restraint, judgement, and perspective. Sure, they're not really what she's known for, but she has a good history with them from Play. But I would point out that there's never been any indication, that I can recall, Twilight is from a noble line, just that she was a high-ranking civil servant and a favorite of at least one of the Princesses. It could still make for an interesting misunderstanding, though.

Fun Fact:

[jacky2734]

I think a Society run-in could be an opportunity for her to exercise restraint, judgement, and perspective. Sure, they're not really what she's known for, but she has a good history with them from Play. But I would point out that there's never been any indication, that I can recall, Twilight is from a noble line, just that she was a high-ranking civil servant and a favorite of at least one of the Princesses. It could still make for an interesting misunderstanding, though.

Fun Fact:

Um, I do believe that 67 minus 27 does equal 40.

[RoboRed]

There's another thing I might add.

Spoiler:

Eh...somehow I'm not so sure about this.

This I agree with completely. The price of seeing into the life of the society would probably be having BlackJack freak out and do something irrational to start up a conflict, which will only add to the already increasing weight. If thats the price it would have to pay, then maybe the society really should be left out.

Yeah, this is what worries me. Kipper did bring up a very good point, and I can't really see any way of getting into the Society slavery parts without Blackjack trying to get deeply involved.

[Sindri]

Yes, but 27-66 is forty in the same way that 1-40 is. 27-67 is forty-one.

[Kippershy]

@Numbers

you've got to remember that if you're counting the first number listed, you're got to include the one prior to that to act as "0".

If we go from 27 to 67, you take 26 as the starting point. 27 makes one, 28 makes two. Get it?
Thus, 67 = 40

[Overthepacific]

Fun Fact:

Spoiler:

[Overthepacific]

@Numbers

you've got to remember that if you're counting the first number listed, you're got to include the one prior to that to act as "0".

If we go from 27 to 67, you take 26 as the starting point. 27 makes one, 28 makes two. Get it?
Thus, 67 = 40

1)27:37:47:57:67
2)28:38:48:58
3)29:39:49:59
4)30:40:50:60
5)31:41:51:61
6)32:42:52:62
7)33:43:53:63
8)34:44:54:64
9)35:45:55:65
10)36:46:56:66

We got four columns for four groups of ten
Looks like you still got an odd one out there kip.

[OneMoreDaySK]

@OverthePacific
What?
Ok, so she already killed 27. Number 27 should not be on that list.

[jacky2734]

You don't count 27, just all the numbers after 27.

Edit:
Using OTP's example this is how it should go:

0.27
1.28:38:48:58
2.29:39:49:59
3.30:40:50:60
4.31:41:51:61
5.32:42:52:62
6.33:43:53:63
7.34:44:54:64
8.35:45:55:65
9.36:46:56:66
10.37:47:57:67

[Overthepacific]

You don't count 27, just all the numbers after 27.

Now you guys are just confusing me. I was going by 27 to 67. So she started at 28?

@OverthePacific
What?
Ok, so she already killed 27. Number 27 should not be on that list.

If she still killed 27, doesnt that still make it 41?

Edit:
Using OTP's example this is how it should go:

0.27
1.28:38:48:58
2.29:39:49:59
3.30:40:50:60
4.31:41:51:61
5.32:42:52:62
6.33:43:53:63
7.34:44:54:64
8.35:45:55:65
9.36:46:56:66
10.37:47:57:67

Kippershy was using the starting point of 0 as 26, not 27. So 27 wasnt involved in this at all? So should it say 28 to 67 instead?
What in the blue hell is going on.

[Meleagridis]

@Society
I've been waiting for The Best Night Ever since I first read about it back in the first comment thread on EQD. If anything in the recent past leads to it being rushed through or, Author forfend, skipped then I will enragedly gargle lemon juice.

Second, the Society are technically slavers. But they aren't slavers for the evulz. They aren't slavers because it was easier to sell a fraction of the population into torture and rape than to survive on their own. Hell, the average serf in the Society's lands probably lives safer and more comfortably than the majority of free wastelanders. From what we've heard of them, they're what Red Eye's civilization was meant to become, albeit on a smaller scale. The Society isn't just a problem that Blackjack will be compelled to solve with copious amounts of bloodshed; it's almost certainly going to force her to rework her entire worldview.

The leader of the Society has a lot of explaining to do before he'll be challenging anyone's worldview.

So guys, I think I've got a good posibility on what Lacunae's betrayal is. I've been kinda indecisive over whether to post it or not, since I've made some predictions that I decided not to post before that ended up being really close to the mark. I can't get a good read on how likely or unlikely this is, but I do think that it's a possibility that most haven't considered, if anyone at all. So I'm gonna put it in spoiler tags, and unless the general consensus is that it's just too unlikely, then please put discussion about it under spoiler tags too.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Gurk! Pulled a complete Blackjack and forgot that things happened to anyone other than Blackjack. This is a fresh, interesting idea. I particularly like it as an explanation for the rampant party stoicism, and it is a pretty logical conclusion to her natural therapist tendencies.

I really, really want to see Lac and Rampage have a pow-wow. Two confused non-individuals who help themselves by helping others. They'd make a pretty therapeutic feedback loop, or maybe they'd hate each other. I still want to see it.

[jacky2734]

Okay OTP, I'm going to try to explain this as simply as possible.

BJ had already killed or caused the death of 27 ponies. She then had to euthanize 40 more foals.

27+40=67

[Ketchup]

How did simple addition get this muddled...

[jacky2734]

Because Internet, that's how.

[Caoimhe]

Holy crap, of all the things to discuss in 50+ chapters, it's the math that gets ya?

[jacky2734]

Would you rather we bring up the Legate again?

[Sindri]

No!

[Overthepacific]

Okay OTP, I'm going to try to explain this as simply as possible.

Hey, dont you talk down to me, I might get upset.

BJ had already killed or caused the death of 27 ponies. She then had to euthanize 40 more foals.

27+40=67

Okay, see this is where I wasnt getting it. I thought that Blackjack was talking about pushing the button and shutting off the pods NUMBERED 27 to 67, not her kill count. Like the foals were in the stasis pods numbered 27 to 67 and the other ones were vacant...yeah...

Misconception through the lack of context, my bad.

[Caoimhe]

Anyway, I agree with the Society being used as an exercise in restraint. You can have Blackjack being bitter about not doing anything and have Glory actually get really pissed off at her for doing it, perhaps in preparation for a dinner. Have Blackjack use the opportunity to understand herself more and somewhat realize that she can't solve everyone's problems and indeed focus on what should be important to her, like the relationship that she said herself she feels she doesn't observe (ugh so many 'she's' in one sentence).

BJ really needs to view being with someone as something more than exclusive privilege for sex and Glory really needs to be more assertive in a way that sets a boundary for Blackjack that doesn't treat her like a plaything.

On that note, the collar thing is pretty interesting: In a way, Glory's inexperience and general naivety ends up viewing Blackjack as motivated by physical stimulus rather than certain emotional responses. It's an interesting duality that shows that they're not broken but immature.

[Overthepacific]

Would you rather we bring up the Legate again?

That argument got pretty heated at points, which was aggravating cause it wasnt even my main complaint. But no, lets not until the next revision comes out.

No!

Awh, it wasnt that bad was it?

[Kippershy]

Okay OTP, I'm going to try to explain this as simply as possible.

BJ had already killed or caused the death of 27 ponies. She then had to euthanize 40 more foals.

27+40=67

Oh, it was total kills? Damn, it's been way, way too long since I read that chapter and so I thought the pods were numbered.
Doesn't help that I've never reread a chapter, minus the first two after the rewrites.
I honestly was in the same position as Overthepacific and thought the pods were numbered 27-67 and thus why we spoke about it such a way.

[Icy Shake]

Sorry, it looks like this was my fault for under-excerpting. Here's the full paragraph for reference. So yeah, I was referring to kill counts, not pods.

I clenched my eyes shut but all I kept seeing were ponies dying. An eyeball popping under my baton. Twenty-two. A head disintegrating as I raced out the tunnel. Nine. Guts spilling out amid bones. Twenty. Automatic fire tearing holes in three ponies. Seventy-three, four, five… Pushing a button. Twenty-seven to sixty-seven. My heart beat harder and harder and I could make out the distant noises of them saying things to me. Guts spilling from my torso; I felt like I was falling into the sky to break against the dark clouds overhead. The roaring in my ears chased me into the blackness.

Also, yeah, I'm fine with leaving (read: eager to leave) the Legate tabled for now.

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