Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Cptadder]

Since it's designed and built by zebra engineers, weight probably isn't a problem, particularly with later models that could be made with better materials. Still don't know about the rate of fire or barrel length, though.

Rate of fire ranges from very slow 200 RPM you got out of WWII Japanese Nambu machine guns to 1400 RPM of the purposed MG45 that never got made with realistic rounds per minute of between 500 to 900. A secondary weapon for close defense for tankers, supply people and the like 500 makes sense while if it's a trench or room clearing spray and pray submachine gun then 900 is about right.

Barrel length determines accurasy but the longer the barrel the less it's a "sub" machine gun and more a terrible full sized machine gun.

Oh, well, hooray for accidental success! I'm not sure about a spiral or drum magazine; it would be more difficult to make work with the fast reloading system. On the other hand, it would need reloading less often, so that might balance out.

I'm pretty sure that the magic-augmented sight is out, though. Would it work to use converging line sights mounted on the top of the sides?

Drum magazines are a possibility but I don't think mouth guns would work with a spiral magazine. But then I pony guns would tend towards modified box magazines to make reloading easier or rather not box magazines but cube magazines because ponies can't afford to have long columns of metal sticking down.

[Frost]

A question: in Fallout and FoE, every gun of the same caliber seems to be the same model. When there is a 9mm Beretta 92, there will never be a 9mm Sig-Sauer P226. When there is a Mossberg 590, there will never be a Remington 870. Do you think this is for simplicity or laziness on the designers' part, or, in-universe, the Wastelanders just all stick to the one model per type of weapon and scrap everything else for the sake of simplicity (if someone comes into your gun shop with a 12-gauge shotgun, you know how to work with it without referencing a gun manual because nowadays all 12-gauge shotguns are the same)?

[IncoherentOrange]

There are multiple varieties of weapons in some calibers in FO1 and 2, at least; the 12 gauge caliber (ALL of the shotguns, from DB to Pancor and Combat) and .223 (Hunting Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Scoped Hunting Rifle, .223 Pistol, etc.) caliber seeing several variations. Newer games, though, have far less of that, and in older games, 9mm Ball was taken only by one weapon, as was .45 Auto, if I remember correctly. .357 has a revolver and semi in its category. It's variable, really.

[Ketchup]

A question: in Fallout and FoE, every gun of the same caliber seems to be the same model. When there is a 9mm Beretta 92, there will never be a 9mm Sig-Sauer P226. When there is a Mossberg 590, there will never be a Remington 870. Do you think this is for simplicity or laziness on the designers' part, or, in-universe, the Wastelanders just all stick to the one model per type of weapon and scrap everything else for the sake of simplicity (if someone comes into your gun shop with a 12-gauge shotgun, you know how to work with it without referencing a gun manual because nowadays all 12-gauge shotguns are the same)?

For 3 and NV, all the weapons of the same type are probably the same so players can recognize them. Same with the later TES series. For FO:E, I don't think there was any information saying they were always the same weapons when referring to a type, though I may be wrong.

[Kattlarv]

@Rum: We've been over this Rum, I still got scrambled eggs, a fact that won't change xD

@Kipper: This regarding that (will have to link since "time links" won't work if you youtube them)

[O. Hinds]

Since it's designed and built by zebra engineers, weight probably isn't a problem, particularly with later models that could be made with better materials. Still don't know about the rate of fire or barrel length, though.

Rate of fire ranges from very slow 200 RPM you got out of WWII Japanese Nambu machine guns to 1400 RPM of the purposed MG45 that never got made with realistic rounds per minute of between 500 to 900. A secondary weapon for close defense for tankers, supply people and the like 500 makes sense while if it's a trench or room clearing spray and pray submachine gun then 900 is about right.

It's designed as a primary firearm for close-quarters combat (urban interior, shipboard, etc.).

Barrel length determines accurasy but the longer the barrel the less it's a "sub" machine gun and more a terrible full sized machine gun.

Right, but I'm not informed enough about the subject to know what sort of barrel length would be appropriate.

[Ironmonger]

You could try a 9-inch barrel, that's around the length of the MP5 SMG. Make sure it has selective fire, the last thing you need is to piss your mag away.

EDIT: We might actually have something going here. Adder, Frost and I could work with Hinds a little bit on whatever weapon ideas he has to make something half-way decent. Just saying.

[OneMoreDaySK]

Out of curiosity, how many fan 'factions' are there?
New Lunar Republic, Solar Empire, Changeling Legion, Cult of Chaos, Fluttershy Peace Corp are some that pop up with a quick search. Any others?

[222222]

@MrFrost: I am fairly certain every caliber of ammunition in fallout has at least two, usually more guns that fire that round. However you are correct that there aren't nearly as many as they should be, even given wasteland circumstances. I think it is much more that too many guns would confuse players, the same reason guns are called 'Assault Rifle' or 'Combat Shotgun' instead of whatever gun they are modeled off of. That's why I use 19th, 20th, and 21st century weapons mods whenever I play fallout.

[Guest]

@Guns 'n calibers 'n finding the lack of variety thereof disturbing
In FOE, at least, I think that part of it might have been that all the weapons manufacturers are heavily subsidized and at least partially controlled by the government might contribute to the lack of variety. Plus, gun manufacturing is relatively new; there aren't so many established designed to work with, nor so many established companies to compete with one another. That said, PH at least seems to have a reasonable variety in its 12ga shotguns. =P

[Ketchup]

Idea dump:
For Fallout 4, I think it would be great if they made a bunch of parts(Magazine, stock, grip, etc.) for every weapon type and put them together randomly for guns you find on enemies and matching sets for ones found in sealed places. That would make the guns look diverse and makeshift or intact depending on the source. Sort of like Borderlands 2's generation, actually.

[Ironmonger]

I could see the Zebras having something at least similar to an AK-47 or AKM. I don't know much about them but to me it seems they would want a weapon system that would function no matter what. The extra energy from the 7.62x39 would be good for getting rid of the tough beasts in Zebra lands.

[Frost]

I could definitely see the jury-rigged guns thing being awesome, with weapons containing factory/matchig parts being a very rare tool for elite soldiers/ a sign of status. That would put even more strain on the machines running the system, so I don't see it being implimented

[Cptadder]

@MrFrost: I am fairly certain every caliber of ammunition in fallout has at least two, usually more guns that fire that round. However you are correct that there aren't nearly as many as they should be, even given wasteland circumstances. I think it is much more that too many guns would confuse players, the same reason guns are called 'Assault Rifle' or 'Combat Shotgun' instead of whatever gun they are modeled off of. That's why I use 19th, 20th, and 21st century weapons mods whenever I play fallout.

Keep in mind why does my copy of Guns of the Modern Age have seven hundred pages with multiple guns per page? Because there is a great big world out there of people who make guns, dozens of private companies plus official government arsenals not to mention individual gunsmiths who make something that gets popular.

But what guns existed during WW2 in say Germany? You had the P38 being mass produced, the K98 the Mp40 and the Mg34, add in the put back into production weapons from Czechoslovakia and French holdings as the war went on but otherwise very few guns.

The ponies being new to mass produced guns would only have what their home grown industries can produce plus whatever the Griffins/Minotaurs/Buffalo create not to mention whatever stolen Zebra designs... with the goal of mass production for war time that means a drive towards standardizations meaning a handful of designs. People look at the Equestrian Wasteland and wonder where X design is when this is the ponies first ever war... meaning lots of gun usage history does not exist. How many gun designs did we have in the civil war? Nowhere near compared to today.

Idea dump:
For Fallout 4, I think it would be great if they made a bunch of parts(Magazine, stock, grip, etc.) for every weapon type and put them together randomly for guns you find on enemies and matching sets for ones found in sealed places. That would make the guns look diverse and makeshift or intact depending on the source. Sort of like Exactly like Borderlands 2's generation, actually.

Fixed it for you ketchup

[Ironmonger]

Admittedly I'm an offender of what Adder stated but unlike some fans out there (not accusing anyone here) I do realize it is their first war. I usually pass something different off by saying it was made in another country.

[Frost]

Now, admittedly it's been a while since I read the original FoE, but the ponies went from midieval tech and tactics to laser guns and powered armor over the course of a few years. Is there much mention of massive, massive casualties early on in the war as, like in the American Civil War and WWI, commanders ordered long-distance infantry charges and regimented firing lines agains entrenched riflemen and machine gunners?

[Ketchup]

Idea dump:
For Fallout 4, I think it would be great if they made a bunch of parts(Magazine, stock, grip, etc.) for every weapon type and put them together randomly for guns you find on enemies and matching sets for ones found in sealed places. That would make the guns look diverse and makeshift or intact depending on the source. Sort of like Exactly like Borderlands 2's generation, actually.

Fixed it for you ketchup

Not exactly, but very similar. I meant to include that they'd be completely identical stat-wise. I thought it up and I only remembered that Borderlands was probably where I got the idea after typing it out. I usually forget things like that.

[222222]

@MrFrost: Early in the war there where very few casualties as the whole thing was kept civilized. Right after guns where introduced we don't know for certain, but in the I think first Big Mac involved memory in PH we saw Big Mac's squad annihilating dozens of zebras. So to answer your question yes, the zebras certainly tried infantry charges on rifle emplacements.

[Cptadder]

Now, admittedly it's been a while since I read the original FoE, but the ponies went from midieval tech and tactics to laser guns and powered armor over the course of a few years. Is there much mention of massive, massive casualties early on in the war as, like in the American Civil War and WWI, commanders ordered long-distance infantry charges and regimented firing lines agains entrenched riflemen and machine gunners?

No the exact opposite Mister Frost, the early war is pure command strikes to secure vital resources and escort and ambush tactics as the Pony's try and capture and hold Zebra coal mines and return the coal back to Equestria, all coal mines are in Zebra land so the Zebras launch attacks to retake the mine and intercept shipments of coal and armaments. However the early war is depicted as very stylized and a firm commit on both sides that one could be expected to be captured and treated well so once the fighting started going against either side they retreated or simply surrendered. Once captured you were treated well and quickly traded back after the next battle.

In my head canon the first year or two of the world was almost ceremonial with neither side using guns with the Royal Guard using Magic, Spear and Hoof to Hoof combat to fight Alchemy, whatever is traditional Zebra melee weaponry and Hoof. With the Zebras having numbers to the Pony's better training with Pegasuses as a Pony advantage. Fights were one on one for the most part and once you beat somepony down you stopped.

At some point the war starting getting more viscous and by the time of Celestia stepping down we had refugee columns and population unrest. Soon after we had Luna and everything started slowly climbing to 11.

Again head canon we went from the equivalent of honor touches and glorious single combat with the Zebras fighting like Home Alone protagonists using Alchemical sticky potions and inching powder to later on gunshots and poisoned weaponry.

Edit
*Big Mac's memory is from Project Horizon not Fallout Equestria, some say a difference without a distinction but I always try and keep the two separate.
As well you forget the Zebras have something the Huns and Tommy's never did, stealth suits and Alchemical tricks, not to mention Pegasuses power. It's explicitly stated that the war was a very mobile war nearly entirely outside Equestrian lands.

[OneMoreDaySK]

Question: What did Celestia do after she stepped down? Just hide in her room and eat cake?

[Ironmonger]

Question: What did Celestia do after she stepped down? Just hide in her room and eat cake?

Are you calling Celly fat?

[O. Hinds]

You could try a 9-inch barrel, that's around the length of the MP5 SMG. Make sure it has selective fire, the last thing you need is to piss your mag away.

You'd know better than I would. Selective fire sounds good, though.

EDIT: We might actually have something going here. Adder, Frost and I could work with Hinds a little bit on whatever weapon ideas he has to make something half-way decent. Just saying.

Well, I don't have that many firearm ideas, and this was from a while ago... What do you think of the idea of explosive and APE 10mm pistol and rifle rounds (the idea is that, to make production easier, the pistol and rifle rounds use the same shell and caliber but the rifle rounds have longer cartridges with more propellant in them)?

[Ironmonger]

If you could find a way to make such a small amount of explosive jammed into a 10mm pistol cartridge practical then I'm all for it. Would work as a good scare tactics, possibly breach locks depending on the risk of ricochet (an explosive round bouncing off doesn't even sensemake to me). When you say APE I automatically think "shaped charge", might work for light body armor and possibly light robots. Might have to make it a slightly longer than average pistol cartridge to make that stuff fit.

Frost and Adder are moreso the gun guys here, if you want to bust a tank or crack open a reinforced position then I'm your guy.

[Frost]

You could try a 9-inch barrel, that's around the length of the MP5 SMG. Make sure it has selective fire, the last thing you need is to piss your mag away.

You'd know better than I would. Selective fire sounds good, though.

EDIT: We might actually have something going here. Adder, Frost and I could work with Hinds a little bit on whatever weapon ideas he has to make something half-way decent. Just saying.

Well, I don't have that many firearm ideas, and this was from a while ago... What do you think of the idea of explosive and APE 10mm pistol and rifle rounds (the idea is that, to make production easier, the pistol and rifle rounds use the same shell and caliber but the rifle rounds have longer cartridges with more propellant in them)?

You've come upon a similar line of thought as the Soviets. All of their Cold War guns were, initially at least, 7.62 (SKS and AK in 7.62•39, Dragunov in 7.62•54R, Tokerov in 7.62•25) for several reasons, among them that they could take some of their old Mosin-Nagants and chop down the barrel into a few of the new guns' barrels.

When they had the wherewithal to make new barrels better than their refurbished ones, they started to switch to new calibers, like 5.54•39 for the AK-74 and 9•18 Makarov

[Ketchup]

Well, I don't have that many firearm ideas, and this was from a while ago... What do you think of the idea of explosive and APE 10mm pistol and rifle rounds (the idea is that, to make production easier, the pistol and rifle rounds use the same shell and caliber but the rifle rounds have longer cartridges with more propellant in them)?

I know this isn't directed to me, but wouldn't having a common bullet between two different cartridges for two different purposes make the bullet behave differently between the two ballistically? Pistol rounds usually have wider tips to transfer force more effectively to compensate for low velocity compared to rifles, which usually have smaller tips for more range and penetration. Edit: Meaning, wouldn't you need to meet in the middle and make a round less effective for either?

10mm isn't really a feasible size to make an explosive bullet from, the payload would be too small to have a significant effect. I read somewhere that 20mm is about where HE loads become significantly more effective.

[Ketchup]

You've come upon a similar line of thought as the Soviets. All of their Cold War guns were, initially at least, 7.62 (SKS and AK in 7.62•39, Dragunov in 7.62•54R, Tokerov in 7.62•25) for several reasons, among them that they could take some of their old Mosin-Nagants and chop down the barrel into a few of the new guns' barrels.

When they had the wherewithal to make new barrels better than their refurbished ones, they started to switch to new calibers, like 5.54•39 for the AK-74 and 9•18 Makarov

Those bullets may be the same diameter, but not the same size or weight.

[Frost]

Those bullets may be the same diameter, but not the same size or weight.

Yes. The different weapons had practically no parts commonality and little similarity aside from barrel diameter (though, the Dragunov is based heavily on the Kaleshnikov) However, that that they shared a barrel diameter with the Mosin-Nagant allowed them to chop down the Mosin's barrel to make the barrels for the new guns.

[Ketchup]

Yes. The different weapons had practically no parts commonality and little similarity aside from barrel diameter (though, the Dragunov is based heavily on the Kaleshnikov) However, that that they shared a barrel diameter with the Mosin-Nagant allowed them to chop down the Mosin's barrel to make the barrels for the new guns.

I never knew the part about the Mosin's barrel being cut down. Interesting.

[Ironmonger]

Ironymonger has an idea. 7.62x25 Tokarev pistol, dual-stack magazine. The TT-33 pistol is great but the grip is at an awkward angle and the magazine is too shallow relative to the stopping power.

[Ironmonger]

Couldn't have said it better myself. About an hour ago I found myself saying "Holy crap it actually lasted a significant length." Guns really do make their point.

EDIT: Wait a minute did you just say they shoot mostly bullets? Now I have the image of a gun that fires...squirrels.

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