Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Frost]

Ever shall Adder stand above us, and ever shall his shadow fall upon us all

Pray for mercy to another, for Adder hath none

[Ironmonger]

And now we sing the hymn "Glory be to Adder"

[Frost]

Also, about that "Rape Factory/ clone army" thing. If I were running the show, I'd of course lobotomize the, ahem, "volunteers" first. Whether that helps of makes it worse is up to you.

[Stringtheory]

And now we sing the hymn "Glory be to Adder"

no, Glory belongs to Blackjack you silly

[Ironmonger]

So Blackjack thinks. Glory is secretly just like Blackjack.

[Frost]

And now we sing the hymn "Glory be to Adder"

no, Glory belongs to Blackjack you silly

Repent, for you would anger Adder with your insolence. He has not tolerance for your base "jokes".

Your Trollestia shall bring doom upon us all.

[Ironmonger]

Meanwhile, Iron Fury fantasizes about Gloryjack.
Iron Fury:"I'd like to jack them around." *drools*

[Cptadder]

Grandpa Adder:"You damn kids knock that shit off!"yes I am calling you old

Old? Old was a century ago son, Olde was three centuries ago, I am something beyond that now. Old is a human word for human concepts of time and longevity. I left those foolish concepts of morality when I left behind my mortality.

Before there was time, there was Adder. When all that we know us but ashes, Adder shall be there to dance upon our graves. Tremble before Adder. You cannot escape. Adder Forgiveth not, and he forgeteth not. Know Adder, and know your end.

Ia! Ia! Adder ptagn!

And then I knew, I knew deep in my core that there were things in this world that were not of it. Things old when Her sun first shown it's warm rays on our world. Worse still, that this knowledge brought no comfort for now knowing my foe I knew I had no tools to face it. No clever tricks or last second heroics can stand up to a creature that had watched the entire history of ponykind as nothing more than an idle amusement. Now.... why of all times had the thing chosen to abandon it's passivity and act for the first time in what had to be millennium?

I did not know the how yet, but I did know the what. I must discover it's goals and thwart them if possible. If not then the royal sisters must be warned. May Her Sun shine on me in my hour of need.
-Author unknown

[Ironmonger]

A wild usurper appeared!

[WavemasterRyx]

Feel better Ryxykins. :(

I'll miss your art, and hope you feel better soon... If
there's anything any of us can do to help, don't hesitate to
ask.

I hope that you feel better soon.

Thank you all. I hope I feel better soon too.
And certainly, Sindri. I don't think there's anything that anyone can do to help, but if I ever think of anything I'll be sure to let you know.

*bows*

[Ironmonger]

What the fuck is lobotomize?

[Sindri]

Also, about that "Rape Factory/ clone army" thing. If I were running the show, I'd of course lobotomize the, ahem, "volunteers" first. Whether that helps of makes it worse is up to you.

...why lobotomize? What would that accomplish?

Eh, it'd make the whole process easier. Assuming you did it properly, instead of just accidentally killing half of them when you started stabbing brains.

[Ironmonger]

What the fuck is lobotomize?

http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/

Don't get smart with me boy. I've used google for this before and never got a straight answer. If you insist on being a smartass I'll do it one last time.

EDIT: Finally got the answer I was looking for. Doesn't change the fact that was a bit offensive. Anyway I'm getting off here for the night.

Major EDIT: Sorry about that Swicked, that kinda tripped something in the back of my mind. To explain, the reason I asked is because personally I felt like I had exhausted all resources to get my answer (I searched it several times a few months back and got nothing), I don't ask about things otherwise. Instead of giving me a straight answer you give me that. For me that's not only insulting my intelligence, but it's like I was slapped because I asked, like saying "You're an idiot.". That cut deep. I felt a bit worthless. Sounds stupid I know. Doesn't help that I was verbally abused for a good part of my childhood and partly into my early teens, "idiot" and references to my lack of coherent thought process being a big part of it. I'd rather take a physical beating than feel like that again and that brought all of that shit back to the surface. I don't actually blame you for it, if someone walks into an unmarked minefield and steps on a mine is it their fault? I just have some issues with various things that I have neither the time nor the money to deal with it. Just be more careful next time.

Sigh...for all my confidence I'm just an iron fortress with a foundation of fucking toothpicks...

Spoiler:

[SilentCarto]

I'm not following why you would need anything beyond a simple anaesthetic or sleep spell. When they wake up, you tell them there was an accident, they're okay now, and we can start processing them out of the hospital immediately...

As for why nopony ever did this... I think the higher-ups like to be able to think of themselves as good. Sure, we're ripping up immortal souls FOR SCIENCE, but we only use bad ponies. Or ones that are dying anyway. Or volunteers that couldn't possibly understand what's being asked of them.

[Frost]

I'm not following why you would need anything beyond a simple anaesthetic or sleep spell. When they wake up, you tell them there was an accident, they're okay now, and we can start processing them out of the hospital immediately...

As for why nopony ever did this... I think the higher-ups like to be able to think of themselves as good. Sure, we're ripping up immortal souls FOR SCIENCE, but we only use bad ponies. Or ones that are dying anyway. Or volunteers that couldn't possibly understand what's being asked of them.

The ponies for the project could simply be "voulunteered" from your local prison. As for why it would be permanent, well, with the right healing spells you can get an infinite number of eggs, in addition to them being necessarily opened up for the process.

I'd say just remove and keep alive the necessary reproductive organs, but that pretty much apparently means the resultant being has no soul.

[Cptadder]

I'd say just remove and keep alive the necessary reproductive organs, but that pretty much apparently means the resultant being has no soul.

Again Mister Frost blanks are made from the raw blood of a chaos god not biological processes. To repeat your rape child soldiers require six separate technological breakthroughs. A completely blind eye from everyone involved and the Zebra's not catching on. Because trust me even if you can get the technology to work your still faced with the fact if the Zebra's announce what's going on then Fluttershy is going to find out. And if she hears about it she's going to look, and if she looks she's going to quit. And if she quits the rest will and moral breaks.

*Edit
Kill Fluttershy would have the exact same effect as her finding out with regards to the rest of the Mane Six.

[Frost]

So leave the organs in and keep rolling with the fast-growing pseudo- clones

[Cptadder]

...do you really think, if it was announced that zebra assassins had killed fluttershy (regardless of whether they did or not), all of the mane six would quit?

Yes losing Fluttershy would break Twilight and breaking Twilight would break the rest. Keep in mind the only reason Twilight throws herself into her work is because she wants the war to end. If she lost one of her friends no matter the cause she's going to shut down. Applejack, Pinkie and Rainbow dash would throw themselves into their work ten times harder. But Rarity could go either way either withdrawing or being ten times more manically devoted. But Twilight would be forced to faced the fact she's ignore her friends so she can some point in the future spend more time with them. Sacrificing all of the now for a perfect later that never comes is a classic relationship mistake. Twilight can't work hard enough to bring Fluttershy back because she can't come back no matter what she does, and faced with a no win situation Twilight has shown in the past that she goes nuts and shuts down.

I personally think it would have finally convinced them that nothing less than the complete slaughter of the zebra nation was neccessary. If any of the rest of them died Fluttershy would quit and convince the others to do the same, but Applejack didn't quit when het brother died and she sure as heck wouldn't if Fluttershy did, too... and I don't see the rest of them responding much differently.

Applejack is not made of the same stuff as Fluttershy and Big Mac was mourned by all and died heroically. The method of death matters quite a bit so when Applejack saw her brother die she did not quit because she knew WHY her brother died and that was because of a lack of decent enough armor. It gave her a cause, her brother was dead but family survived. Meanwhile when Mac died for Twilight things had already broken off as far as we know.

But yes you are correct Fluttershy dieing is likely to propel the ponies of Equestria in a mood for a full blown Zebra genocide only if there existed sold proof because the opposite truth being discovered would break pony moral just as surly as her death would inflame their hate. Without Fluttershy however the shoes come off and your likely to see chemical and biological weapons that make the Littehorn agent look like fluffy pink candy and then your talking MAD the instant a Zebra pathogen jumps the species barrier to earth ponies.

[OneMoreDaySK]

...do you really think, if it was announced that zebra assassins had killed fluttershy (regardless of whether they did or not), all of the mane six would quit?
I personally think it might have finally convinced them that nothing less than the complete slaughter of the zebra nation was neccessary. If any of the rest of them died Fluttershy would quit and convince the others to do the same, but Applejack didn't quit when het brother died and she sure as heck wouldn't if Fluttershy did, too... and I don't see the rest of them responding much differently.

Eh more or less. Because Fluttershy is pretty much the only one of the six <i>trying</i> to sue for peace. Twilight and Rarity focus on ending the war, Applejack and Rainbow Dash were trying to win it through means of defense and offense respectively, and Pinkie is trying to do too many things at once. Twilight might have a breakdown and just quit though, but the general mood would definitely shift to kill-em-all.

[Sindri]

Yep. All you'd need for your clone army is to assassinate the best protected and most beloved mare in the nation without leaving any evidence, then flawlessly develop six distinct advanced technologies in secret, and wait about a year for the first major batch to finish the production line.

[Frost]

Yep. All you'd need for your clone army is to assassinate the best protected and most beloved mare in the nation without leaving any evidence, then flawlessly develop six distinct advanced technologies in secret, and wait about a year for the first major batch to finish the production line.

Worth it. Playing God is worth a little collateral damage

[Cptadder]

Considering Twilight's reaction to a perceived threat is to "watch EVERYTHING" first and "stop time" second, I think her response to fluttershy's passing would be "Well, we just bring her back, then, right?!?"

Rarity's necromancy then gets a second ministry behind it and the most powerful unicorn in equestria.

I disagree, remember Swarm of the Century and Lesson Zero AND Future Twilight. You said it yourself she thought there was a threat out there and she over-reacting during Future Twilight. But dead Fluttershy is not a "threat" it's a dead Fluttershy. And you'll note that the Necromancy Rarity is dealing with is not the zombies and pony transmutation to bring back dead ponies kind. It's the more raw and elemental form of Necromancy, magic dealing with life and death and the transfer of such essences.

The Black book is a book dealing with how to extend life, to manipulate life to transfer life... not create it. There are no zombie pony creation rituals in the book. It has a lot to do with souls and manipulation of them, there are no indications the Black Book could bring back Fluttershy back, we just assume because Necromancy... Zombie fluttershy?

Further is Rarity going to go to Twilight and say hey I got a book of Zebra Necromancy lets go Pet Cemetery on Fluttershy's corpse?

I've changed my mind from wonder if Rarity would break to known she would break. Her entire goal is to protect her friends and a dead Fluttershy means she's failed. She'll break along with Twilight.

OAN:How exactly do you manage to murder Fluttershy without alerting Pinkie Pie, she is Pinkie Pie after all and I think an assassination plot against her friend would set off all kinds of Pinkie Pie twitches.

[Kippershy]

[quote="Cptadder"]

OAN:How exactly do you manage to murder Fluttershy without alerting Pinkie Pie, she is Pinkie Pie after all and I think an assassination plot against her friend would set off all kinds of Pinkie Pie twitches.

The same way she knew someone was going to try AJ's life?

[Cptadder]

OAN:How exactly do you manage to murder Fluttershy without alerting Pinkie Pie, she is Pinkie Pie after all and I think an assassination plot against her friend would set off all kinds of Pinkie Pie twitches.

The same way she knew someone was going to try AJ's life?

A valid point but...
That attack failed, no warning required. Applejack got hurt to be sure but she was back up and moving in two months.

[FeatherDust]

On the cloning thing, the whole plan depends on getting the flash learning memory orbs to work. Even if you use real time orbs, I still maintain that experiencing a memory orb is not the same as doing it for real. Listening to lectures on tape does not prepare you for writing lectures. Training involves making decisions, carrying then out, and seeing how things turn out. A memory orb does not do that; it just shows you some events while you ride along with no control over what happens. Without agency, you may learn on an intellectual level, but you can't develop real physical skills, any more than watching a football player on TV teaches you how to throw a pass.

And all this assumes that your clones can start with understanding of language, which we have no reason to believe. It takes a child years to learn to understand more than rudimentary phrases, so how are you going to teach even basic tactics without high level language skills?

[Cptadder]

That Featherduster get's back into the six technologies issue. First you need a way to transfer skills from ponies to memory orbs (1) then you need to be able to mass duplicate memory orbs (2) then you need a method of producing large amounts of soldiers (3) quickly (4) and make them loyal (5) and last you need a method of quickly training these loyal soldiers using the transferring skills from memory orbs (6).

[Guest]

1. If Twilight didn't already know about the black book (didn't PH have rarity recieve a message regarding the MoAS having attempted to destroy it at her request and failed?), she would find out.

I don't think it matters what is even in the book. Twilight gets an idea, then follows it. All of Rarity's research on her own with B-class unicorns could have been done in a week with Twilight and her staff. They'd exhaust all the spells in the book almost immediately, then start working on improving them and creating new ones.
Twilight is a manic intellectual powerhouse and I don't think you're giving her enough credit.

Yeah, I gotta agree with Swicked. If Twilight actually used the Black Book, who knows what kind of eldrich horrors she could bring into Equestria. And IIRC, it was mentioned the book seemed to gain spells based off of what the reader was looking for...

[Cptadder]

1. If Twilight didn't already know about the black book (didn't PH have rarity recieve a message regarding the MoAS having attempted to destroy it at her request and failed?), she would find out.

That was Spike I thought being asked to destroy the book, knowledge of the Black Book was closely held. Celestia knew, Spike knew, of course Applejack and Rarity knew but beyond that? Snips and Snails and how?

I don't think it matters what is even in the book. Twilight gets an idea, then follows it. All of Rarity's research on her own with B-class unicorns could have been done in a week with Twilight and her staff. They'd exhaust all the spells in the book almost immediately, then start working on improving them and creating new ones.

Twilight is exploring all routes to get magic to help turn the tide. If she knew WHAT the book was along with what it contained why did she never explore the possibilities? As far as we know only Rarity knew of the book along with her agency, AJ, Spike, and Celestia. If her department was ordered to destroy the book would she know why or what? If I recall correctly (And I might not) Celestia ordered the book destroyed and Rarity only got it back because MoAS failed.

Twilight is a manic intellectual powerhouse and I don't think you're giving her enough credit.

My question is not with her skills but with the motivation and means, would it even occur to commit the ultimate sin and attempt Pony Transmutation to bring her dead friend back to life?

[Sindri]

On the cloning thing, the whole plan depends on getting the flash learning memory orbs to work. Even if you use real time orbs, I still maintain that experiencing a memory orb is not the same as doing it for real. Listening to lectures on tape does not prepare you for writing lectures. Training involves making decisions, carrying then out, and seeing how things turn out. A memory orb does not do that; it just shows you some events while you ride along with no control over what happens. Without agency, you may learn on an intellectual level, but you can't develop real physical skills, any more than watching a football player on TV teaches you how to throw a pass.

And all this assumes that your clones can start with understanding of language, which we have no reason to believe. It takes a child years to learn to understand more than rudimentary phrases, so how are you going to teach even basic tactics without high level language skills?

Take an orb recording of a soldier's entire life from birth to training. Edit out inconvenient parts, maybe splice together a dozen or so people's memories for one optimal one, whatever. Spend a few days running the clone through the equivalent of twenty years of life. They experience the same input that the template soldier did, over the same subjective period, and learn the same things from it. Then they come out and yes their body isn't properly adapted to use their "experience" but a few months of physical therapy fixes that up. The training would be suboptimal because it wasn't tailored to the individual's learning speed and talents, but you'd get a lot of bodies on the field rapidly.

No, the technological problems are all in the hardware; you need to somehow modify the normal growth processes of a naturally conceived foal to come to term rapidly (1) in a tube (2, because Tarot's transplanting seems to indicate they had no way to grow foals outside a valid mother, and a mare couldn't survive sustaining a child growing that rapidly inside), then accelerate their growth to get physical maturity within months (3), while keeping them on sufficiently good life support to sustain such horrendously rapid growth (4), physically train or modify them to have bone and muscle development sufficient for combat conditions despite growing up pretty much stationary (5), and somehow after all of this have them survive long enough that they don't just break down on the battlefield (6).

1. If Twilight didn't already know about the black book (didn't PH have rarity recieve a message regarding the MoAS having attempted to destroy it at her request and failed?), she would find out.

I don't think it matters what is even in the book. Twilight gets an idea, then follows it. All of Rarity's research on her own with B-class unicorns could have been done in a week with Twilight and her staff. They'd exhaust all the spells in the book almost immediately, then start working on improving them and creating new ones.
Twilight is a manic intellectual powerhouse and I don't think you're giving her enough credit.

It's not clear that there are specific spells in the Black Book, or limits to its uses. It's clearly sentient, and appears to have a direct connection to the stars; for all we know it just keeps giving you more knowledge and power for as long as you're receptive to it and have the ability to follow along. And with Twilight, a unicorn whose talent is Magic... Basically if she knew about the book, and didn't shy away at the first example of seriously Black magics, she could easily be wielding the full power of the Stars within months.

[Cptadder]

Just... Why is it that you think Rarity wouldn't give Twilight access to the book?

I don't think Twilight knows about the contents of the Black Book, I don't think Rarity would go to Twilight and suggest they commit the ultimate sin and attempt Pony Transmutation to bring Fluttershy back to life.

And last I don't think Twilight would try to bring her friend back to life just like I don't think Rarity would suggest it. Without Twilight to attempt it or Rarity to suggest it... Twilight breaks, Rarity breaks, Pinkie goes crazy and the others quit to help.

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