Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Ironmonger]

Spoiler:

[FeatherDust]

...Okay, I missed something big. What evidence are you using to conclude that Goldenblood and Luna had sex?

Um... well, as far as that they had some kind of romancey-sorta-thing going, the stuff on page 7-8 starting with Erumpet's post. That they actually slept together, I'm sort of inferring from Goldie's uncharacteristic nervousness and the fact that he shouted her name while having sex. And adding to that, I'm not sure if Fluttershy would've been so hurt if it was just a longtime crush rather than a previous lover. Maybe so, but I'm not sure of that.

[Stringtheory]

Anyway, the metal boxes are no longer relevant to my plans. Feel free to do with them as you please.

but what about your SPESS MAHRENS in SPESS who are prepared to DEEP STRIKE?

[Ironmonger]

[Sindri]

...Okay, I missed something big. What evidence are you using to conclude that Goldenblood and Luna had sex?

Um... well, as far as that they had some kind of romancey-sorta-thing going, the stuff on page 7-8 starting with Erumpet's post. That they actually slept together, I'm sort of inferring from Goldie's uncharacteristic nervousness and the fact that he shouted her name while having sex. And adding to that, I'm not sure if Fluttershy would've been so hurt if it was just a longtime crush rather than a previous lover. Maybe so, but I'm not sure of that.

Well, time to dig through the old posts for a while. Before I go, let me just say that waaay too many people interpret a close friendship or pseudo-familial relationship as romance. Not sure specifically what is referred to as uncharacteristic nervousness. And he called out the name of his god rather than his girlfriend, it doesn't mean he was fucking her.

[222222]

@Sindri: this was my initial interpretation as well, and I still am undecided as to whether or not I think that is correct or the romantic interpretation. But don't tell the shippers that, they are very, uhm, aggressive in their assertions. Shh...

[Stringtheory]

@Sindri: this was my initial interpretation as well, and I still am undecided as to whether or not I think that is correct or the romantic interpretation. But don't tell the shippers that, they are very, uhm, aggressive in their assertions. Shh...

oh shippers are easy to deal with, you just yell 'hey *insert ship here* just became canon!' then quickly leave the area while they all check

[Ironmonger]

@Sindri: this was my initial interpretation as well, and I still am undecided as to whether or not I think that is correct or the romantic interpretation. But don't tell the shippers that, they are very, uhm, aggressive in their assertions. Shh...

oh shippers are easy to deal with, you just yell 'hey *insert ship here* just became canon!' then quickly leave the area while they all check

Or we could hire a sniper. Hint hint.

[Sindri]

Ok so I was rereading the newest chapter and I came across this bit:

“My name is Goldenblood,” he replied as he sat next to my bed.  He looked up at the Princess.  “Luna’s… well…”
“I finally convinced him that leading a life of being a lonely intellectual was overrated,” Luna replied, making the young stallion flush.  “And he’s agreed to look after you.”

The first time I read through this I was only thinking about Psalm and I didn't think anything about this passage. But rereading it, it seems like its indicating that Goldenblood and Luna are involved romantically. Specifically the part where Goldenblood stutters in describing his relationship to Luna and the part where Luna convinced him being lonely was overrated, to which he blushed. Am I reading too much into this? Or was this obvious to everyone else and I just totally missed it? Because if this is legit, it totally changes the Goldenblood Fluttershy dynamic in my mind.

So all of this is based on the lonely intellectual (and an archaeologist at that) having difficulty putting a relationship into words and being embarrassed when he requires help from an immortal goddess to explain something simple to a filly.

Have you ever seen a hard introvert trying to talk to a strange child before? I won't say that it's entirely impossible that they had sex, but I see no <3 here. Quite possibly a <>, but that's it. They were definitely close. He cared for her a great deal. But neither of those things means sex happened.

Meanwhile, as far as I can tell from all that we've seen of them, Goldenblood truly and fully loved Fluttershy. And I've looked hard, because I really hated the idea of those two together when it first came up. But no, as far as I can tell his relationship with her was the one honest thing he did in the whole war. He wasn't using her, it wasn't an act or a second-best option, and losing her destroyed him.

[Ironmonger]

All this talk about pre-war characters has made me think. I originally planned on Armed Redemption having nothing to do with the war, but I've kinda changed my mind. I'm already on the idea of using Fleur de Lis and Lyra Heartstrings.

[FeatherDust]

So all of this is based on the lonely intellectual (and an archaeologist at that) having difficulty putting a relationship into words and being embarrassed when he requires help from an immortal goddess to explain something simple to a filly.

It depends on what you think he was going to finish that sentence with. "Luna's.. well..." I'm not sure how that phrase ends without "...my lover".

And one does not typically shout the names of random royalty or deities in the midst of passion. ("Oh god" does not count.) The fact that he did that means that he was thinking about Luna at the time. He either had been with her, or really wanted to be.

Fluttershy is super sensitive, so she COULD be overreacting, but I would tend to expect a random weird name coming out to be treated with a "What did you say?!" rather than tears and, if I recall correctly, the virtual destruction of their relationship; her reaction is more typical of a confirmation of the suspicion that her husband is cheating on her (or possibly, again, would like to be).

Meanwhile, as far as I can tell from all that we've seen of them, Goldenblood truly and fully loved Fluttershy. And I've looked hard, because I really hated the idea of those two together when it first came up. But no, as far as I can tell his relationship with her was the one honest thing he did in the whole war. He wasn't using her, it wasn't an act or a second-best option, and losing her destroyed him.

I agree that the relationship was honest, but we don't know Goldie's heart. I suspect he did have a relationship with Luna but that it was a long time ago by the time he's getting with Fluttershy; you can't really be with a princess. It doesn't mean his feelings for Fluttershy are false if Luna is still first in his heart. But it would be hurtful if his current wife realized that he felt that way.

I actually think a deep loyalty to Luna born out of love would go a long way to explaining Goldie's motivations. He wants what's best for the world and for Equestria (not the same thing), but more than either of those he wants what's best for Luna. We keep seeing this pattern of behavior: Work against the thing he feels is bad for the world or the nation, then give in and throw everything behind it. Because if he can't stop Luna from doing something, he's going to at least guide it to be to her greatest benefit.

[O. Hinds]

...Okay, I missed something big. What evidence are you using to conclude that Goldenblood and Luna had sex?

Um... well, as far as that they had some kind of romancey-sorta-thing going, the stuff on page 7-8 starting with Erumpet's post. That they actually slept together, I'm sort of inferring from Goldie's uncharacteristic nervousness and the fact that he shouted her name while having sex. And adding to that, I'm not sure if Fluttershy would've been so hurt if it was just a longtime crush rather than a previous lover. Maybe so, but I'm not sure of that.

Well, time to dig through the old posts for a while. Before I go, let me just say that waaay too many people interpret a close friendship or pseudo-familial relationship as romance. Not sure specifically what is referred to as uncharacteristic nervousness. And he called out the name of his god rather than his girlfriend, it doesn't mean he was fucking her.

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/16594
(Note that no disrespect is meant to shippers; I may be laughing, but I'm one of the people I'm laughing at.)
On the other hand, while I spotted such gems as PStygius-21 and P-21/Lancer, I also correctly spotted Gloryjack early, so the proponents of this hypothesis may not be wrong...
edit: ...And now this idea of a Luna/Goldenblood/Fluttershy love triangle is starting to seem more sensible to me, too...

[Guest]

Oh man, I remember P-21/Lancer... that sure didn't work out. XD

[Sindri]

It depends on what you think he was going to finish that sentence with. "Luna's.. well..." I'm not sure how that phrase ends without "...my lover".

...a very close friend.

...my liege.
...my surrogate sister.
...my great^36 aunt.
...my moirail.
...your god.
...the one who made me leave academia for a moment.
...the one who told me to adopt you.
There are a lot of valid endings to that phrase.

I suspect he did have a relationship with Luna but that it was a long time ago by the time he's getting with Fluttershy; you can't really be with a princess. It doesn't mean his feelings for Fluttershy are false if Luna is still first in his heart. But it would be hurtful if his current wife realized that he felt that way.

Okay, first off, if you mean sex say sex. I have a relationship with my sister, my parents, my friends, and technically everyone I've interacted with however indirectly. I have sex with... well, nobody. (Asexual, remember?)
Second, he was a member of the aristocracy. Son of a prince in fact, if I recall correctly. He could really be with a Princess, at least by any human standard of nobility. And since they were that close long before the war began and even longer before Luna took control, there isn't even the excuse that they'd be vilified for putting personal interests before those of the nation.
And as a little side note, Golden and Flutters were never married. The relationship wasn't even public.

I actually think a deep loyalty to Luna born out of love would go a long way to explaining Goldie's motivations. He wants what's best for the world and for Equestria (not the same thing), but more than either of those he wants what's best for Luna. We keep seeing this pattern of behavior

True. He did love her, and that does motivate many of his actions. Love does not equal sex. It does not even equal romance, in the way most people mean the word. There are several distinct varieties of love and the english language simply fails to distinguish between love of a brother, love of a sexual partner, love of a long-term life partner, love of a horse, love of a fine cigar, love of a parent, love of a nation, love of a worthy opponent, etc. I have no doubt that Goldenblood loved Luna deeply, but that feeling was not above or below his love for Fluttershy; it was an entirely separate and distinct emotion which happens to be labelled with the same word because this language is really stupid in such matters. And people refusing to distinguish between those different kinds of love is the simplest form of shipping goggles and responsible for most of the terrible incestuous fanfic that pollutes the internet.

[222222]

@Sindri: while I do agree with you wholeheartedly, one eency weency little nit pick. Goldie was the bastard son of a noble, and disowned at that. So strictly speaking he probably wouldn't have been able to marry Luna officially. However, being a bastard noble's son still puts him ahead of normal people as far as eligibility goes, and if you can't bend the rules a little what is the point of being a deistic dictator? (sacrificing denotational value for cheap alliteration? Buck yeah)

[Sindri]

@Sindri: while I do agree with you wholeheartedly, one eency weency little nit pick. Goldie was the bastard son of a noble, and disowned at that. So strictly speaking he probably wouldn't have been able to marry Luna officially. However, being a bastard noble's son still puts him ahead of normal people as far as eligibility goes, and if you can't bend the rules a little what is the point of being a deistic dictator? (sacrificing denotational value for cheap alliteration? Buck yeah)

When was he disowned? Blueblood was bringing him to official functions; that's about as acknowledged as you can get as a bastard son. And even if dear old dad stopped admitting him after that, by that point he was recognized by the God-Empress. Celestia is pretty much the only one who could have been an obstacle to their hypothetical sex.

[SilentCarto]

I said similar regarding Fallout and ponies before reading Kkat's story. :P

Warhammer 40k would be more difficult to pull off adequately, though...

Well, exactly, kinda. Kkat is a phenomenal writer to make it all work together the way she did. Someone could, in theory, manage to do the same for 40k, but it would take a writer of such caliber that they'd already be busy working on their own stories and getting paid for it.

This shipping chart best be in SilentCarto/Hinds green.

Celestia's beard, for a second there I saw that as "the best shipping be SilentCarto/Hinds".

Well, time to dig through the old posts for a while. Before I go, let me just say that waaay too many people interpret a close friendship or pseudo-familial relationship as romance. Not sure specifically what is referred to as uncharacteristic nervousness. And he called out the name of his god rather than his girlfriend, it doesn't mean he was fucking her.

I tend to lean toward this interpretation too. Luna may have lured him out of the library with a date or two (which would make the blush-interrupted word girlfriend) but I don't think I'm going to believe it went anywhere unless one of the memories specifically says so. After all, if they had a relationship that ended some time ago, that should all be ancient history by the time he's with Fluttershy. Calling her name suggests he was fantasizing about Luna, the unattainable woman that he could never have.

[Sindri]

SilentCarto/Hinds. New OTP. Sweetie Belle

Seriously though, I generally stick to the rational kind of shipping, where you observe and catalogue canonical relationships and speculate as to likely future developments. Rather than picking a nonsensical pairing, becoming emotionally attached to it, seeing every event as evidence in favor while being blind to any indications to the contrary, wishing bodily harm on any characters perceived to interfere, and reacting violently to objections from other observers. That's the stupid kind of shipping, which is why 90% of shippers pick it.

[SilentCarto]

SilentCarto/Hinds. New OTP. Sweetie Belle

[Guest]

@Silent, also Sindri
Y-you and Hinds had a falling out? TO COUPLES' THERAPY! YOU CAN MAKE THIS WORK!

[222222]

@Sindri: I am not sure if he was disowned or not, for some reason though I thought he was in the bad graces of Blueblood. Regardless, still a bastard. And that's not fly in the noble's circles. Not that Luna couldn't, like you say only Celestia could legitimately oppose it, but Luna would certainly lose some support from the nobles. And after she took power she really needed that support. But I'm always prone to non-sexual shipping, so I'm going to agree with you in this case.

[FeatherDust]

It depends on what you think he was going to finish that sentence with. "Luna's.. well..." I'm not sure how that phrase ends without "...my lover".

...a very close friend.
...my liege.
...my surrogate sister.
...my great^36 aunt.
...my moirail.
...your god.
...the one who made me leave academia for a moment.
...the one who told me to adopt you.
There are a lot of valid endings to that phrase.

None of which -- aside from the last one -- would be reason for him to hesitate and shy away from saying it. (Well, I'm not sure about the moi-whatever.)

Okay, first off, if you mean sex say sex. I have a relationship with my sister, my parents, my friends, and technically everyone I've interacted with however indirectly. I have sex with... well, nobody. (Asexual, remember?)

I said what I meant. I'm agnostic on the issue of actual physical sex-with-luna. They may have had a romance that didn't work out or something. It's hard to say, except that I'm convinced it was something closer and more personal than just friendly or even parental.

Second, he was a member of the aristocracy. Son of a prince in fact, if I recall correctly. He could really be with a Princess, at least by any human standard of nobility. And since they were that close long before the war began and even longer before Luna took control, there isn't even the excuse that they'd be vilified for putting personal interests before those of the nation.

He was a baseborn relative of aristocracy, which gives him no standing, but that's not what I meant anyway. Nopony can really have a relationship with an immortal god-queen. There's the whole "heartbreak of outliving your love" thing, and the massive power differential would make it awkward to the point of impossibility, and that's entirely apart from any question of royalty. (Frankly an immortal ruler would have no need to marry royalty, since the whole point of that was to keep royalty within the existing royal families and not introduce random common folk into the Great Houses. No succession means no need to control the origins of potential successors.)

And as a little side note, Golden and Flutters were never married. The relationship wasn't even public.

From what we saw in the cabin they're husband and wife in all but the technical sense.

True. He did love her, and that does motivate many of his actions. Love does not equal sex. It does not even equal romance, in the way most people mean the word. There are several distinct varieties of love...
it was an entirely separate and distinct emotion which happens to be labelled with the same word because this language is really stupid in such matters. And people refusing to distinguish between those different kinds of love is the simplest form of shipping goggles and responsible for most of the terrible incestuous fanfic that pollutes the internet.

I'm not refusing to distinguish, nor wearing shipping goggles, thank you. Psalm loves Luna, but hers is the love of a devoted follower to a deity, not romantic or sexual, and I'd never suggest otherwise. Goldie though, that's something different...

[O. Hinds]

I said similar regarding Fallout and ponies before reading Kkat's story. :P

Warhammer 40k would be more difficult to pull off adequately, though...

Well, exactly, kinda. Kkat is a phenomenal writer to make it all work together the way she did. Someone could, in theory, manage to do the same for 40k, but it would take a writer of such caliber that they'd already be busy working on their own stories and getting paid for it.

This shipping chart best be in SilentCarto/Hinds green.

Celestia's beard, for a second there I saw that as "the best shipping be SilentCarto/Hinds".

Well, time to dig through the old posts for a while. Before I go, let me just say that waaay too many people interpret a close friendship or pseudo-familial relationship as romance. Not sure specifically what is referred to as uncharacteristic nervousness. And he called out the name of his god rather than his girlfriend, it doesn't mean he was fucking her.

I tend to lean toward this interpretation too. Luna may have lured him out of the library with a date or two (which would make the blush-interrupted word girlfriend) but I don't think I'm going to believe it went anywhere unless one of the memories specifically says so. After all, if they had a relationship that ended some time ago, that should all be ancient history by the time he's with Fluttershy. Calling her name suggests he was fantasizing about Luna, the unattainable woman that he could never have.

SilentCarto/Hinds. New OTP. Sweetie Belle

Seriously though, I generally stick to the rational kind of shipping, where you observe and catalogue canonical relationships and speculate as to likely future developments. Rather than picking a nonsensical pairing, becoming emotionally attached to it, seeing every event as evidence in favor while being blind to any indications to the contrary, wishing bodily harm on any characters perceived to interfere, and reacting violently to objections from other observers. That's the stupid kind of shipping, which is why 90% of shippers pick it.

SilentCarto/Hinds. New OTP. Sweetie Belle

@Silent, also Sindri
Y-you and Hinds had a falling out? TO COUPLES' THERAPY! YOU CAN MAKE THIS WORK!

...
[opens mouth]
...
[closes mouth]
...
Well, this is a rather random turn.

edit: Also, my signature appears to have mysteriously vanished again. Ah, I see; it seems that, for some reason, the "Attach signature" checkbox is only usually checked by default.

[Sindri]

It depends on what you think he was going to finish that sentence with. "Luna's.. well..." I'm not sure how that phrase ends without "...my lover".

...a very close friend.
...my liege.
...my surrogate sister.
...my great^36 aunt.
...my moirail.
...your god.
...the one who made me leave academia for a moment.
...the one who told me to adopt you.
There are a lot of valid endings to that phrase.

None of which -- aside from the last one -- would be reason for him to hesitate and shy away from saying it.

Think for a moment about all the times you've stumbled over a word, or paused to think during a conversation, or been unsure of how to continue and just paused awkwardly for a moment. Now, out of all of those cases, in what fraction of them were your next words going to be "I am having sex with this Goddess."? Maybe he was contemplating which of these myriad options to use in his first introduction. Maybe he was counting out how many "greats" to put between himself and Luna before calling her his aunt. Maybe he's just an antisocial academic who hadn't rehearsed the entire conversation beforehand. There are literally infinite reasonable explanations for that pause, and if 'they are having sex' is the only one you can see, that's because you're wearing the shipping goggles. It'd be like if I interpreted Hinds' momentary stunned silence there as an admission that he was having sex with SIlentCarto.

[edit: with apologies to Hinds and SilentCarto]
[edit^2: unless you actually are having sex. in which case it's still none of my business, but I'm no longer sorry. for anything.]

[Icy Shake]

I'm going to have to go with Sindri on this; while, yes, one could read something into the pause, a reasonable baseline is that he's shy or bad at talking to children.

Though I do need to ask: what do we know about the succession/membership in the hierarchy of nobility in FoE Equestria? While I'd tend to go off of the English tradition, it could be more expansive (I hardly see how it could be less), at least for the determination of whether one is a commoner or not. It does seem that, at a minimum, a (younger? I forget if Blueblood had other, elder sons.) bastard son does not receive his father's title while the father is alive, or likely even a courtesy title (I would assume that a prince would have at least one subsidiary title an heir could use, if such is the Equestrian tradition.) At the very least, I'd expect the close familial/social ties to mean that Goldenblood might well be considered a member of the social and cultural elite, or a member of the landed establishment, if not its entitled core.

[Cptadder]

Wow my summary of pages 13 and 14 are going to be easy to write, Kipper is random, Iron spams and then Sindri brings out the shipping charts of the forum.

@Sindri: while I do agree with you wholeheartedly, one eency weency little nit pick. Goldie was the bastard son of a noble, and disowned at that. So strictly speaking he probably wouldn't have been able to marry Luna officially. However, being a bastard noble's son still puts him ahead of normal people as far as eligibility goes, and if you can't bend the rules a little what is the point of being a deistic dictator? (sacrificing denotational value for cheap alliteration? Buck yeah)

When was he disowned? Blueblood was bringing him to official functions; that's about as acknowledged as you can get as a bastard son. And even if dear old dad stopped admitting him after that, by that point he was recognized by the God-Empress. Celestia is pretty much the only one who could have been an obstacle to their hypothetical sex.

Read up on your nobility and noble marriages. Kings and Queens (And ruling Princesses) don't get to marry for love, after all political marriages are a integral to monarchy's. As long as Luna is single she can marry someone to secure an alliance. At least in theory, the pones are less cold blooded than humans about this. No one is going to tell Celestia to get married as she spent a thousand plus years as absolute god ruler. But Luna? Can't marry before Littlehorn, can't marry after, that is the curse of being royalty and being responsible. And Luna looks after her people and her responsibilities, she won't marry.

[Caoimhe]

Is it too late to point out that since Goldenblood is obviously into older mares (Fluttershy at the time of events) that Luna would probably be his ultimate fantasy?

[Cptadder]

Let me expand a bit on Royalty and marriages. Celestia had no need to marry as FeatherDust mentions. Every royal for over a thousand years was born with Celestia as ruler and died with her still on the throne. She might have faced marriage proposals when her sister was still her sister and after they defeated Discord and first gained control of Equestira. But after a generator or two has lived and died with her as ruler that fades away and the power of prestige makes marriages unnecessary. Not to mention after that time she stops becoming a potential mate and more a force of nature.

Luna does not have that, all the ponies who were alive when she returned as Nightmare moon are still alive. She has a horn and wings, she's an alicorn but she's not the living embodiment of the Sun. Ponies don't view her as the same thing as her sister, she may embody the moon but not in the same way her sister embodies the sun. Let be blunt, Luna's a looker to ponies so she faces that issue that she might have been purposed to and the only reason she's not been married off is a lack of a good match and/or the lingering fear of Nightmare Moon issues.

[Sindri]

Let be blunt, Luna's a looker to ponies so she faces that issue that she might have been purposed to and the only reason she's not been married off is a lack of a good match and/or the lingering fear of Nightmare Moon issues.

...Yes, she would likely have been proposed to. On many occasions. I fail to see how this presents a problem, or how it would compel her to be married off. There are no rival pony nations with which Celestia needs to secure alliances. Princesses are valued members of society, rather then political trading chips, because Equestria in an enlightened utopian matriarchy rather than a tiny irrelevant kingdom in the dung ages. There would likely be an outcry among the aristocracy if she chose to marry one who was not one of them, but as mentioned earlier a full prince like Blueblood would almost certainly have at least one title to grant one of his sons and if he saw the opportunity to be the father of the husband of a goddess he'd jump at it (better than being the great^35 nephew, no matter how much he personally hated Golden) because his relation to Celestia was literally the only thing he ever had going for him.

[Icy Shake]

Wow my summary of pages 13 and 14 are going to be easy to write, Kipper is random, Iron spams and then Sindri brings out the shipping charts of the forum.

Spoiler:

Read up on your nobility and noble marriages. Kings and Queens (And ruling Princesses) don't get to marry for love, after all political marriages are a integral to monarchy's. As long as Luna is single she can marry someone to secure an alliance. At least in theory, the pones are less cold blooded than humans about this. No one is going to tell Celestia to get married as she spent a thousand plus years as absolute god ruler. But Luna? Can't marry before Littlehorn, can't marry after, that is the curse of being royalty and being responsible. And Luna looks after her people and her responsibilities, she won't marry.

Sounds like someone's a fan of Dune (I kid, I kid). But seriously, I'd be inclined to minimize this factor for the Princesses.

First, there's the fact that we're talking about the land where the power of love and/or friendship conquers most of the worst problems. I think that on that basis, love would be highly respected and the major factor behind royal marriages. Especially since, as you bring up in your subsequent post and has been said before, dynastic concerns are nonexistant. Depending on the exact nature of the system of nobility, in fact, marrying Celestia could even have extinguished the spouse's titles as they merged into the Tiara--of course, that could be circumvented by the creation of the heirs as nobles anew.

Second, there's been little if anything to indicate that there are significant pony populations outside of Equestria. That pretty much limits in-species political marriage opportunities to lesser nobility. While such a pairing could shore up support among some faction or another of the greats, the fact is any such marriage is probably going to be redundant unless noble groups would have had real power to undermine the Tiara's authority--not just in the present, but for a large enough period of the past for political marriage to have become the expectation.

That said, I agree that a marriage during the war, and post-Littlehorn especially, would have been out of the question for the same reason that public romance was not a possibility for the Ministry Mares. But I do think there was a slice of time where it would have been a possibility.

Edit: And Caoihme, Celestia's older .

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