Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[OneMoreDaySK]

A rough eternity ago, someone asked what could have made Luna so angry she was going to have Goldenblood killed.
I've long thought it was Horizons, whatever that is. I suspect it to be something damaging to the moon, given all the moon program stuff. Maybe it really was landing some part of it on the eater and there's simply some way to regulate or restrict the explosion between moonstone and eater starmetal. Something that would allow it and the moon to be eliminated without killing everybody. We still don't fully understand what the relationship of the two substances is, but the fact that moonstone annihilates eater starmetal has always been very interesting since nothing else does.

...or, of course, there might be a way to send the eater to the moon. Either way, the moon is destroyed and Luna... well, it might very well kill her, or she could lose her power or divinity. Considering how extreme her action was, I think she was not just mad... she was entirely terrified by this thing Goldenblood was willing to do. This thing that was already entirely in place by the time she managed to incarcerate him.

The thing about moonstone and EoS starmetal is that even in small quantities they react very violently. One can only imagine if Project Horizons were to send the pure essence of the creature at the moon.

Sheesh, I don't comment for a while and shipping had commenced, from PHCC oHinds/Carto to Luna/GB. Then there's the 40k discussion in which I have bare minimum knowledge of. Can't afford any of those things. Seem cool enough though getting to paint and detail all those soldiers and tanks and creatures and whatnot.

[Cptadder]

Let be blunt, Luna's a looker to ponies so she faces that issue that she might have been purposed to and the only reason she's not been married off is a lack of a good match and/or the lingering fear of Nightmare Moon issues.

...Yes, she would likely have been proposed to. On many occasions. I fail to see how this presents a problem, or how it would compel her to be married off. There are no rival pony nations with which Celestia needs to secure alliances. Princesses are valued members of society, rather then political trading chips, because Equestria in an enlightened utopian matriarchy rather than a tiny irrelevant kingdom in the dung ages. There would likely be an outcry among the aristocracy if she chose to marry one who was not one of them, but as mentioned earlier a full prince like Blueblood would almost certainly have at least one title to grant one of his sons and if he saw the opportunity to be the father of the husband of a goddess he'd jump at it (better than being the great^35 nephew, no matter how much he personally hated Golden) because his relation to Celestia was literally the only thing he ever had going for him.

With all due respect Sindri look into a history of the great dynasties, Habsburg, Romanov, Orange. "tiny irrelevant kingdoms in the dung ages" got married for the same reasons as the big monarchs. The thing you must remember with MLP is that Ponies are people in a lot of ways. The Unicorns clearly have a nobility with titles and aristocratic thinking of a large land owning class. To put it another way Unicorns have Old money thinking as we'd say in New England. Pegasuses we don't have a read on yet due to lack of show information on how they run themselves TODAY(We know in the past). But we do have a read on Earth Ponys and we see democracy in full bloom there.

Princesses are valued members of society because they can be married off, that's what princesses are for, so are princess if they are not the heir. What ever arrangement is between Celestia and Luna, the Unicorns at least are going to see possible gain there and would attempt to secure a marriage with Luna. Needless to say the chances of any Unicorn gaining her affection are slim because she's still an immortal alicorn but perchance our lonely little moon child might want some companionship.... But Luna seems to be the rational sort and from FoE she's cold blooded enough to offer herself as a potential partner even if it's not a true offer just to shore things up on the home front.

First, there's the fact that we're talking about the land where the power of love and/or friendship conquers most of the worst problems. I think that on that basis, love would be highly respected and the major factor behind royal marriages. Especially since, as you bring up in your subsequent post and has been said before, dynastic concerns are nonexistant. Depending on the exact nature of the system of nobility, in fact, marrying Celestia could even have extinguished the spouse's titles as they merged into the Tiara--of course, that could be circumvented by the creation of the heirs as nobles anew.

Dynastic concerns are not non-existent, Celestia and Luna can both die, they are flesh and bone and sinew. The point is Celestia wears her age well, no one looks at her as a potential match because of how long she has publicly endured. Worse if she's secretly Trollestia or ....Mollestia.
Luna is not in this same situation, she's physically younger, thousand year banishment or no she has literally a thousand years less living than Celestia has. She also looks younger to boot, and this is important... she's a new factor in the notabilities social schemes. She will not be treated like her sister, she will be treated like a very highly placed noble because that's what nobles do to strange but important foreign people they dare not offend.

You all assume Luna would never play the possible marriage card in the lead up to the war or during the quiet war of Celestia's decade. She might well have offered herself as a trophy wife of sorts, we just don't know what happened back then but we can speculate.

Second, there's been little if anything to indicate that there are significant pony populations outside of Equestria. That pretty much limits in-species political marriage opportunities to lesser nobility. While such a pairing could shore up support among some faction or another of the greats, the fact is any such marriage is probably going to be redundant unless noble groups would have had real power to undermine the Tiara's authority--not just in the present, but for a large enough period of the past for political marriage to have become the expectation.

This is a valid point that there are few ponies outside Equestira... as far as we know now. The planet is a big place after all.

[RoboRed]

suddenlyyoutube:

[Sindri]

With all due respect Sindri look into a history of the great dynasties...

Irrelevant examples because an immortal ruler means you aren't a dynasty.

Princesses are valued members of society because they can be married off...

In the majority of historical human monarchies, yes. Because those cultures viewed women as somewhere between decorations, baby factories, and persistent expenses. This does not apply in Equestria for reasons which should be immediately obvious. You're trying to hold ponies to a standard of behavior which is not only human exclusive, but has been considered idiotic and barbaric for a century in our own world.

[Cptadder]

With all due respect Sindri look into a history of the great dynasties...

Irrelevant examples because an immortal ruler means you aren't a dynasty

Dyyastys are immortal (So they hope), Celestia is her own walking talking immortal Dynasty, a Dynasty of one under the Sun throne of the Glorious Sun Princcess, but we are not talking about Celestia we are talking about Luna who is a different kettle of fish.

Princesses are valued members of society because they can be married off...

In the majority of historical human monarchies, yes. Because those cultures viewed women as somewhere between decorations, baby factories, and persistent expenses. This does not apply in Equestria for reasons which should be immediately obvious. You're trying to hold ponies to a standard of behavior which is not only human exclusive, but has been considered idiotic and barbaric for a century in our own world.

Have you ever heard of a Trophy wife/husband Sindri? We do the exact same thing today except we lack the titles and royal We. In fact our existing monarchies get married for exactly the same reason today. You also ignored the second bit, Monarchies treat Princes the same way. I assume you've never met someone who had an arranged marriage or was promised at birth? Pones are not perfect and where you have aristocracy such things develop naturally because such arrangements are useful to ensure smooth and stable control. (Pun not intended) With smooth control you also gain the benefit of easy exercise of power which is someone people with power always strive for.

[Guest]

Okay, y'know how nuns are married to Jesus, metaphorically? And y'know how Celestia and Luna are, to at least some degree, deities? Well. I'm not sure that this means anything for the current discussion, but I do find it kinda funny to think about. I guess that'd put any actual partner in some sort of Mary-Magdalene-as-wife heresy, or something... not very well-versed in biblical stuff, admittedly, and even less so on the "non-canon" stuff. But yeah. Entire abbeys of stallions married to Luna. (Sounds like the internet! )

[Icy Shake]

Let be blunt, Luna's a looker to ponies so she faces that issue that she might have been purposed to and the only reason she's not been married off is a lack of a good match and/or the lingering fear of Nightmare Moon issues.

...Yes, she would likely have been proposed to. On many occasions. I fail to see how this presents a problem, or how it would compel her to be married off. There are no rival pony nations with which Celestia needs to secure alliances. Princesses are valued members of society, rather then political trading chips, because Equestria in an enlightened utopian matriarchy rather than a tiny irrelevant kingdom in the dung ages. There would likely be an outcry among the aristocracy if she chose to marry one who was not one of them, but as mentioned earlier a full prince like Blueblood would almost certainly have at least one title to grant one of his sons and if he saw the opportunity to be the father of the husband of a goddess he'd jump at it (better than being the great^35 nephew, no matter how much he personally hated Golden) because his relation to Celestia was literally the only thing he ever had going for him.

With all due respect Sindri look into a history of the great dynasties, Habsburg, Romanov, Orange. "tiny irrelevant kingdoms in the dung ages" got married for the same reasons as the big monarchs. The thing you must remember with MLP is that Ponies are people in a lot of ways. The Unicorns clearly have a nobility with titles and aristocratic thinking of a large land owning class. To put it another way Unicorns have Old money thinking as we'd say in New England. Pegasuses we don't have a read on yet due to lack of show information on how they run themselves TODAY(We know in the past). But we do have a read on Earth Ponys and we see democracy in full bloom there.

True fact. Especially the Habsburgs--they weren't too far (YMMV) from the rulers of "tiny irrelevant kingdoms" until the marriage binge of Maximilian I--bella gerant alii, tu felix Austria nube, after all. Absolutely right on the unicorns as well--incidentally, and tangentially, I always thought the noble/climber unicorns' accent sounded somewhat like the stereotypical "New England/Northeastern establishment" accent.

Princesses are valued members of society because they can be married off, that's what princesses are for, so are princess if they are not the heir. What ever arrangement is between Celestia and Luna, the Unicorns at least are going to see possible gain there and would attempt to secure a marriage with Luna. Needless to say the chances of any Unicorn gaining her affection are slim because she's still an immortal alicorn but perchance our lonely little moon child might want some companionship.... But Luna seems to be the rational sort and from FoE she's cold blooded enough to offer herself as a potential partner even if it's not a true offer just to shore things up on the home front.

First, there's the fact that we're talking about the land where the power of love and/or friendship conquers most of the worst problems. I think that on that basis, love would be highly respected and the major factor behind royal marriages. Especially since, as you bring up in your subsequent post and has been said before, dynastic concerns are nonexistant. Depending on the exact nature of the system of nobility, in fact, marrying Celestia could even have extinguished the spouse's titles as they merged into the Tiara--of course, that could be circumvented by the creation of the heirs as nobles anew.

Dynastic concerns are not non-existent, Celestia and Luna can both die, they are flesh and bone and sinew. The point is Celestia wears her age well, no one looks at her as a potential match because of how long she has publicly endured. Worse if she's secretly Trollestia or ....Mollestia.
Luna is not in this same situation, she's physically younger, thousand year banishment or no she has literally a thousand years less living than Celestia has. She also looks younger to boot, and this is important... she's a new factor in the notabilities social schemes. She will not be treated like her sister, she will be treated like a very highly placed noble because that's what nobles do to strange but important foreign people they dare not offend.

You all assume Luna would never play the possible marriage card in the lead up to the war or during the quiet war of Celestia's decade. She might well have offered herself as a trophy wife of sorts, we just don't know what happened back then but we can speculate.

I'll admit, "nonexistant" was overstating the case. "Remote" would have been better...anyway, the point was anyone marrying into the royal family would probably not expect his heirs to ascend to the throne in the foreseeable future, and depending on inheritance practices the heirs might even lose ancestral lands to the Princess. And depending on primogeniture laws, Blueblood could well be in line to the throne before a hypothetical heir produced by Goldenblood (say) anyway. And I never said that she wouldn't play the marriage card early on--in fact I said that she had an opportunity at least before Littlehorn, and certainly before the war began, for even an apolitical marriage. I hope it goes without saying that a political marriage to cement internal support is categorically different than pursuing new romantic attachments, particularly where public perception of dedication to duty is concerned.

On the approachability of Celestia as a potential mate, I'm agnostic. I could see perceptions skewing as you describe, or not. We haven't seen enough to make a strong judgement on that, in my opinion.

Second, there's been little if anything to indicate that there are significant pony populations outside of Equestria. That pretty much limits in-species political marriage opportunities to lesser nobility. While such a pairing could shore up support among some faction or another of the greats, the fact is any such marriage is probably going to be redundant unless noble groups would have had real power to undermine the Tiara's authority--not just in the present, but for a large enough period of the past for political marriage to have become the expectation.

This is a valid point that there are few ponies outside Equestira... as far as we know now. The planet is a big place after all.

No argument here. Honestly, the only thing I have to add is that (so far) we've seen that the prewar age (looks like it quite possibly) was a (or at least a reasonable approximation of a) "one-species-one-nation" world. At least going by the core of (in order, to me) FiM, up to the midpoint of season two (possibly with Hearth Warming's Eve as more allegory than historical fact, though as real history it would strengthen rather than diminish that impression, at least to me), FoE, PH, and the remainder of season two not expressly included in PH.

[Ironmonger]

I recall in one chapter that Blackjack saw a 'moving building'. Any info on what the George S. Patton that was?

EDIT: Btw yes I do spam a lot and act like a jackass-in-the-box but I'm still an intellectual, just sometimes not a very serious one.

[OBS.GS.§S]

I recall in one chapter that Blackjack saw a 'moving building'. Any info on what the George S. Patton that was?

Now that you mention it, I remember that as well. That's really curious if we haven't seen what it was yet.
__________

Btw, sorry I don't have anything to add to the Goldenblood & Luna relationship / Royalty Dynamics discussion, I've had a very eventful day and haven't had the time to put much thought into things, I'm just now finding a moment to post at 4:00 AM, tomorrow I'm going to try and look back at the past few pages and see if there's anything I can be helpful or insightful on for you guys.

One thing I thought of though that's somewhat relevant, according the MLP: FiM wiki, Bluebood is: "the "great great great great great great great great great great great (and probably even more greats) nephew on Celestia's and Luna's mother's side, about 52 times removed, roughly speaking.""

Who was Celestia's and Luna's mother? Who was their father? Is this still considered canon in FoE?

Spoiler:

__________

Edit: Earlier, Ironmonger said he would have been able to comment on my suit idea if he had seen it, so instead of just reposting it I decided to add a link to it under a spoiler tag in my signature for anyone who might be interested.

[RandomBlank]

I'm in need of some help. A research.

I need everything we know about Glory's mother. Or at least help pinpointing all segments of PH that mention her - especially before she married Glory's father.

Can you help?

[Kippershy]

Don't you dare spiderman this shit. I come from /b/ and I tell you now: I will use full force if you try to spiderman this thread up.

[Sindri]

Dyyastys are immortal (So they hope), Celestia is her own walking talking immortal Dynasty, a Dynasty of one under the Sun throne of the Glorious Sun Princcess, but we are not talking about Celestia we are talking about Luna who is a different kettle of fish.

I honestly have no idea what this string of words is intended to mean. Could you clarify?

Have you ever heard of a Trophy wife/husband Sindri?

Your attempts at condescension do not make you more convincing. A trophy wife is a mutually beneficial arrangement, at least in the eyes on those involved, where one with youth and looks gets the money and some peripherals of status of a better off but romantically hopeless partner, while said partner avoids the social stigma of being unable to "land" a romantic partner and experiences all the dubious joys of loveless marriage to a greedy but beautiful young person. It has very little connection to politics and absolutely no relevance to the topic at hand because none of those involved would desire to be on either end of such an arrangement.

I assume you've never met someone who had an arranged marriage or was promised at birth? Pones are not perfect and where you have aristocracy such things develop naturally because such arrangements are useful to ensure smooth and stable control. (Pun not intended) With smooth control you also gain the benefit of easy exercise of power which is someone people with power always strive for.

I have, actually. And yes, if there were many warring factions all struggling for control of the nation, such marriages would almost certainly be common as ways to bind together alliances and consolidate power. But smooth and stable control is already ensured. The rulership is not decided by committee, or passed down a particular line, or determined by how large a particular faction within the aristocracy grows. The rulership is, and has been for over a millennium (longer than any single human society has existed without at least a massive restructuring event), a single mare. Celestia has absolute power and has always had absolute power. There has not been a single war with Equestrian involvement since Nightmare Moon's first ascension. Unlike a human dynasty, where continuation of the line is always a primary concern and powerful rivals are a constant on all sides, there is no way for the Princess to lose power other than a rebellion on a massive scale (among a people who have never fought a war and almost universally love their ruler because of the utopia she allows them to live in) or voluntarily stepping down. The petty nobles down the chain may very well have had political marriages to hold onto whatever dubious claims to scraps of power had filtered down, but at Luna's level there is no requirement for such, and in fact no benefit to doing so.


Ponies are far from perfect, yes. Individually, they are almost identical to humans. But Equestrian society has developed in a way that humanity has never seen for longer than many reliable accounts of our history have endured. Their culture is completely different and you need to take such things into account rather than looking for a historical equivalent in our world which is superficially similar but has entirely different context. Don't just look at how things played out, look at why they happened as they did, what cultural norms caused events, what the origins of those cultural norms were, how those would be different in another world, and rebuild from there. In the case of politics and marriage, it simply doesn't make sense for things to develop in the way you assume to be obvious. Just look at the one canonical example of a marriage we have: a ruling Princess... and a low-born watch captain, marrying for love.

I recall in one chapter that Blackjack saw a 'moving building'. Any info on what the George S. Patton that was?

I believe that it was the ancient zebra tank used by the Harbingers. It was described as a massive lumbering rectangular shape moving through the thick rain, and later descriptions of the absurd size of the super-tank painted it as similar scale to nearby buildings. Plus the locations and time frames match up, and nothing else of anywhere near that size and shape has been mentioned in the area before or since.

[FeatherDust]

Think for a moment about all the times you've stumbled over a word, or paused to think during a conversation, or been unsure of how to continue and just paused awkwardly for a moment.

Realistic diction is unrealistic. In real life we stumble through most of our conversations; not so in a book where the author carefully chooses what the characters are saying. In a book, a pause is always meaningful; if Somber had him stop because he was mentally counting "greats" or something, that would be a very strange editorial choice.

In any case this is a very common bit in stories -- to have one of the members of a problematic romantic relationship trailing off when trying to explain it, and the other (more glib) half changing what they were going to say for them.

[Sindri]

Think for a moment about all the times you've stumbled over a word, or paused to think during a conversation, or been unsure of how to continue and just paused awkwardly for a moment.

Realistic diction is unrealistic. In real life we stumble through most of our conversations; not so in a book where the author carefully chooses what the characters are saying. In a book, a pause is always meaningful; if Somber had him stop because he was mentally counting "greats" or something, that would be a very strange editorial choice.

In any case this is a very common bit in stories -- to have one of the members of a problematic romantic relationship trailing off when trying to explain it, and the other (more glib) half changing what they were going to say for them.

And that would be a valid argument is Somber didn't already tend toward the more realistic buffy speak. There are numerous roles that pause could have served from a narrative perspective, the most obvious being to establish the young Goldenblood as a somewhat awkward conversationalist and tell us that the smoothness and manipulation he displays twenty years later is something he was forced to learn rather than something he was "born with". Or it could just be Somber writing more realistic dialogue than your average author.

[OneMoreDaySK]

I'm in need of some help. A research.

I need everything we know about Glory's mother. Or at least help pinpointing all segments of PH that mention her - especially before she married Glory's father.

Can you help?

Well from what I can recall off the top of my addled mind is:
<ul>
<li>Came from some tribe in Hoofington.</li>
<li>Said tribe was slaughtered by raiders(?)</li>
<li>Picked up to be part of the Hoofington Six, i.e. Big Daddy, Keeper, etc.</li>
<li>Wanted to share water for free during the water talisman incident.</li>
<li>Had King Awesome pine after her.</li>
<li>Took care of Sky Striker after he fell from the sky. Also fell in love with him.</li>
<li>Decided to take off when he left for the enclave. </li>
<li>Left King Awesome mad at her, and the rest ambivalent.</li>
<li>Had Sky Striker pull a lot of strings to clear her in medical.</li>
</ul>
That's all I can remember at this time. Sorry.

[Ironmonger]

@Swicked I also recall seeing floating unicorn mage skeleton things now that you mention the tunnels. For future reference lets just say "Lich", that kind of freaky stuff makes me love Horizons.

@Sindri I had a hunch it was the zebra tank but different parts of my brain were arguing it back and forth. I at least have an idea of the scale of tanks back then which means I can create a monster MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

@Kippershy

@OBS.GS.§S *claps hands* I love your suit idea. If you don't mind I may use it for my story.

[Sindri]

I at least have an idea of the scale of tanks back then which means I can create a monster MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

Don't forget the repair talismans!

[Ironmonger]

Moving building? Moving building.

Spoiler:

[Sindri]

That is a simply absurdly large gun. But yeah, the one Blackjack ran from was bigger. That there is like, Ultra-Sentinel scale. She'd tear through it in no time.

[Ironmonger]

That was a Sturmtiger which had a 380mm rocket mortar for urban warfare, big clunky gun that could only carry 14 rounds, the tank itself is fine. As a way of tying things in with the major stories, I planned on one of my tank designs being like the Harbinger tank and other such designs but modified for the region. Prancinnati is an utterly massive city albeit one that hasn't been tamed, you'd most likely see something like a giant Jagpanther or Tiger assault gun with side-sponsons. In case you don't need that much firepower there is always heavily upgraded T-34/85's.

[OneMoreDaySK]

That is a simply absurdly large gun. But yeah, the one Blackjack ran from was bigger. That there is like, Ultra-Sentinel scale. She'd tear through it in no time.

With her mouth. Om nom nom.

[Ironmonger]

When the wasteland gives you lemons-INTO THE BLASTED LANDS, THE HARBINGERS WILL MARCH!

[Kippershy]

I know I'm late to this party, but Glory's mother is without a doubt, the leader of the harbringers.

I know we've all spoken about it, but here's why:


-Harbinger, as in, the elder Harbinger - is a red herring. Both for us and Blackjack, he's a red herring, but it's no coincidence.
Glory's mother chose his name to deflect any implication towards herself.
Now, Blackjack coming into "contact" isn't pre-planned by Glory's mum, but luck.

-The leader is a pegasus, right? Well, look at what happened to the other of the H6 -

Finders Keepers founded The Keepers.
Big Daddy founded The Reapers
Zodiac founded The Collegiate.
King Awesome founded The Society
I can't remember the fifth member, saying that.

Anyway, they all founded something, didn't they.
Well, Glory's mum founded The Harbringers.


How else would she know Blackjack is also known as Security?
How else would she survive so long in the wastes?

More importantly:

The Harbringers have tried to confront Blackjack directly, always losing.
So what do they do? Nothing but have the leader herself come and speak to her.

Coincidence that it's Glory's mother? Okay, a little, but not too much.
Just... chance.

[Ironmonger]

Snip

Somehow this felt relevant.

[Valikdu]

Moving building?

Spoiler:

[Ironmonger]

I'm reminded of the Killdozer used by Marvin Heemeyer on his rampage.

Spoiler:

[Kippershy]

I'm reminded of the Killdozer used by Marvin Heemeyer on his rampage.

Spoiler:

That best be a mistake and not trollin'

[Sindri]

I'm reminded of the Killdozer used by Marvin Heemeyer on his rampage.

Spoiler:

...That image isn't. And the url goes to a moderately sketchy download site. Might want to get a dropbox?

[Ironmonger]

Bah it worked for me just dandy a little bit ago. Time to get that dropbox thing. Anyways it was supposed to be a big armor-plated bulldozer he used to level part of his hometown. Also "..That image isn't." seems like gibberish to me.

EDIT: Got a new image for it.

Spoiler:

[Sindri]

Also "..That image isn't." seems like gibberish to me.

It's perfectly grammatically and logically correct, if a bit strange. That image is not, with 'is' as a form of the verb 'to be' meaning that the image fails to exist.

Okay, it's a lot strange.

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