Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Guest]

Though Tenebra and Glory might be a thing

…I…  I'm conflicted now.  Hm.  Needs a name…  Glorybra?

I may have put my terrible drawing skills to purpose a day or two ago.

link for those brave enough:

[Icy Shake]

I'm fine with adjusting to that for the purposes of Project Horizons, but I really don't think that's something readily extractable from FoE.

IIRC, FoE didn't have flux. They had failed alicorn goop from Twilight's experiments, but never a reason why the stuff would be anywhere except under... Maripony? Was that the place?
In any case, again, Littlepip only got alicorn powers instead of "taint".

The reason given in PH is that Flux was being mass-marketed for usage everyone in existence and being improperly disposed of down just about any drain.

Yeah, no Flux, just the I.M.P. and no exploration of why it would be anywhere except where it was used and stored, and perhaps where it was manufactured and the transit route between them if it was made somewhere else. However, it's always seemed to me that taint was a substance, both in FoE and PH, which was Flux or one of its close derivatives. Basically, Blackjack started using the brand name instead of the generic once she found the source, but it's still the object, not the effect. I think that's even shown up as the general understanding of the Wastelanders as recently as the last chapter, when the heckler who got more than what was coming to him said “That wasn’t taint!  They put the taint in the bucket ahead of time and used unicorn magic on them statues!”

[Icy Shake]

But then you're looking at incompetence from Scotch Tape, Triage, Blackjack, the heckler, Littlepip, Homage, I think Lifebloom (what with saying he could purge the taint, but not its effects), Silver Stripe, Lacunae and the Goddess, Twilight (“You know about it? Huh, I didn’t know about it. Goldenblood had shit going on that I couldn’t imagine. It was crude and unfinished… but the second I read it, I had the idea: an army of alicorns! Unstoppable! I’d finally accomplish something. I perfected the Impelled Metamorphosis Potion from Chimera’s crude mutagenic gunk.” Her eyes peered at me. “I can see you’ve already had a dose of it yourself.”
“What?” I said as I looked at myself, then at her.
“You call it taint,” she said as she slumped on the stairs. “So even my crowning achievement is a grotesque failure.” ), Rampage, Oilcan, P-21, and Glory, possibly among others.

[Downloaded Skill]

But didn't BJ learn that Flux was taint after braving Hippocratic? Considering the area was a death trap and now a crater I think the true identity of Hoofington taint is lost to everyone except BJ's team and the colloquialism is all that remains. There really isn't a reason for anyone to know what "taint" really is, so they just call it what they know.

[O. Hinds]

Though Tenebra and Glory might be a thing

…I…  I'm conflicted now.  Hm.  Needs a name…  Glorybra?

I'm going to decide at Ten in the Morning

...What?

Eh, doesn't roll off the tongue that well to me. I'd go "Tenebry," maybe "Tenebory" for a better balance, but taking it closer to the "Enoby" area.

I'm not sure what "the "Enoby" area" is, but I like "Tenebry".  I think that they'd be cute together.  :)

Though Tenebra and Glory might be a thing

…I…  I'm conflicted now.  Hm.  Needs a name…  Glorybra?

I may have put my terrible drawing skills to purpose a day or two ago.

link for those brave enough:

This does not disagree with my thought about their cuteness. :D

[JadedPony]

…I…  I'm conflicted now.  Hm.  Needs a name…  Glorybra?

You missed the most obvious name! Of course I will have to screw with your head now so that you will never be able to think it in a voice which isn't yelling with the voice of an 80's cartoon character....

Glory+Tenebra=____:

[Icy Shake]

Though Tenebra and Glory might be a thing

…I…  I'm conflicted now.  Hm.  Needs a name…  Glorybra?

I'm going to decide at Ten in the Morning

...What?

I think he's suggesting Ten[ebra] in the Morning [Glory] as a ship name.

Eh, doesn't roll off the tongue that well to me. I'd go "Tenebry," maybe "Tenebory" for a better balance, but taking it closer to the "Enoby" area.

I'm not sure what "the "Enoby" area" is, but I like "Tenebry".  I think that they'd be cute together.  :)

Hahahahaha! After 600 posts, I've finally achieved my great and terrible purpose: linking My Immortal in an in context PH discussion! (Note: this has not actually been my nefarious plan.) Basically, "Enoby" is a frequent misspelling of the name of this fic's—My Immortal being one of the great badfics and/or trollfics of history (if you want a taste, but kept Pony, try Horizon's excellent My Harshwhinnial)—protagonist. It's just not something you necessarily want to think about while discussing a ship.

But then you're looking at incompetence from Scotch Tape, Triage, Blackjack, the heckler, Littlepip, Homage, I think Lifebloom (what with saying he could purge the taint, but not its effects), Silver Stripe, Lacunae and the Goddess, Twilight (“You know about it?  Huh, I didn’t know about it.  Goldenblood had shit going on that I couldn’t imagine.  It was crude and unfinished… but the second I read it, I had the idea: an army of alicorns!  Unstoppable!  I’d finally accomplish something.  I perfected the Impelled Metamorphosis Potion from Chimera’s crude mutagenic gunk.”  Her eyes peered at me.  “I can see you’ve already had a dose of it yourself.”
“What?” I said as I looked at myself, then at her.
“You call it taint,” she said as she slumped on the stairs.  “So even my crowning achievement is a grotesque failure.” ), Rampage, Oilcan, P-21, and Glory, possibly among others.

What do you mean?
I thought the argument was that blanks AREN'T "immune" to taint. That taint is a substance (a kind of flux), and they clearly have a reaction to it.
In which case, we can only decide she misspoke.

Okay, I think I was misunderstanding much of what you were saying, believing it to be that "taint" is the effect of exposure to Flux, not the substance itself. I apologize.

[JadedPony]

Taint is the effect created by ponies being exposed to the liquified chaos (Blood) of Discord. AKA: Flux. 
Taint is those instances where the chaos magic tries to re-write the pony's DNA into another creature, like discord himself, until they are made of mis-matched parts. When you get exposed to enough flux but not enough to finish the transformation, you call it a tumor. The tumor is an unfinished transformation. 

That being said, Blanks are not affected by flux in the same way because it is a primary ingredient in their creation. Just like ponies eat other carbon based lifeforms like grass and apples, so too can blanks digest flux because they are a flux based life form. Drinking one bottle of flux isn't going to make you monstrously fat any more than eating one cake is going to make you bloat up. 

In theory, if you got enough blanks working on it, you could lick up the flux over time and clean out the city. As long as they don't over eat, they should be fine... in theory.

[O. Hinds]

…I…  I'm conflicted now.  Hm.  Needs a name…  Glorybra?

You missed the most obvious name! Of course I will have to screw with your head now so that you will never be able to think it in a voice which isn't yelling with the voice of an 80's cartoon character....

Glory+Tenebra=____:

I don't think I've ever seen that show, actually.

I think he's suggesting Ten[ebra] in the Morning [Glory] as a ship name.

Ohhh. Thanks. I prefer Tenebry, though. :)

Hahahahaha! After 600 posts, I've finally achieved my great and terrible purpose: linking My Immortal in an in context PH discussion! (Note: this has not actually been my nefarious plan.) Basically, "Enoby" is a frequent misspelling of the name of this fic's—My Immortal being one of the great badfics and/or trollfics of history (if you want a taste, but kept Pony, try Horizon's excellent My Harshwhinnial)—protagonist. It's just not something you necessarily want to think about while discussing a ship.

Ah, okay.

[Borsuq]

Well, I think my feels had the necessery time to recover to comment on the last chapter ;p

Chapter 69 thoughts:

Like always, awesome chapter. The parts that I didn't like... well, that's part of the story. I didn't like that Boromid died in the Lord of the Rings, but that didn't mean I quit enjoying the whole story (though as I grew up I found Tolkien's view on evil to be questionable and it sorta took much of the story's valor for me).

One more thing, regarding the shipping of Tenebra and Glory... why do shippers give the name to the ship starting with the beginning of one's name and ending of another? It... sorta annoys me. I don't know why, but it just does. Some sound cute, but... I think it's that it creates at least two possible for it. I dunno. But I think that was one of the reasons why in one story I shipped two characters who's names are Starburst and Starfall. Just so people couldn't use that rule for naming ships XD

[Scootayay]

Taint is the effect created by ponies being exposed to the liquified chaos (Blood) of Discord. AKA: Flux.
Taint is those instances where the chaos magic tries to re-write the pony's DNA into another creature, like discord himself, until they are made of mis-matched parts. When you get exposed to enough flux but not enough to finish the transformation, you call it a tumor. The tumor is an unfinished transformation.

That being said, Blanks are not affected by flux in the same way because it is a primary ingredient in their creation. Just like ponies eat other carbon based lifeforms like grass and apples, so too can blanks digest flux because they are a flux based life form. Drinking one bottle of flux isn't going to make you monstrously fat any more than eating one cake is going to make you bloat up.

But then you're looking at incompetence from Scotch Tape, Triage, Blackjack, the heckler, Littlepip, Homage, I think Lifebloom (what with saying he could purge the taint, but not its effects), Silver Stripe, Lacunae and the Goddess, Twilight (“You know about it?  Huh, I didn’t know about it.  Goldenblood had shit going on that I couldn’t imagine.  It was crude and unfinished… but the second I read it, I had the idea: an army of alicorns!  Unstoppable!  I’d finally accomplish something.  I perfected the Impelled Metamorphosis Potion from Chimera’s crude mutagenic gunk.”  Her eyes peered at me.  “I can see you’ve already had a dose of it yourself.”
“What?” I said as I looked at myself, then at her.
“You call it taint,” she said as she slumped on the stairs.  “So even my crowning achievement is a grotesque failure.” ), Rampage, Oilcan, P-21, and Glory, possibly among others.

What do you mean?
I thought the argument was that blanks AREN'T "immune" to taint. That taint is a substance (a kind of flux), and they clearly have a reaction to it.
In which case, we can only decide she misspoke.

Okay, I think I was misunderstanding much of what you were saying, believing it to be that "taint" is the effect of exposure to Flux, not the substance itself. I apologize.

So which one is it now? How is anyone outside this forum supposed to understand how taint/flux work if not even this group does? That is the main problem here. The storie(s) themselves don't seem to be clear about it either, since there is no explanation anywhere to be found and the use of taint/flux is inconsistent.


The way I see it is the way Jaded described. Taint being the effect and Flux the substance. That would make the most sense and it's the easiest explanation. If not and taint is a different form of flux, what the hell is the difference between it and normal flux, where is it supposed to come from etc...

[Vinylshadow]

Flux: The substance that causes taint
Taint: The effect of being exposed to flux

I think we can roll with that

[Vinylshadow]

Same thing happens with Radiation

[Scootayay]

That's easily explainable with different doses of contamination/exposure, so I don't think that's really a problem.

[Vinylshadow]

And a pony's Strength, Medicine and Survival stats...

Pretty sure Blackjack's got beefier health stats then Littlepip did

[Rayndalf]

Well the tough hide perk would increase damage threshold, and Blackjack has fairly high... endurance?

But if / how Blackjack kept any 'physical' perk she attained after the blank copy was made is unknown
Will Blackjack's blank body allow her to level up starting from the point it was made?

Its been a while since I played Fallout New Vegas (heavily modified, half stable, Fo3 integration) and I haven't been brave enough to recreate it since I reinstalled windoge. 

[Vinylshadow]

I rather like the idea of Blankjack being reset back to level 1

Although it would make any real showndown with Cogjack rather lopsided out of her favor

Unless of course

Discord Ex Machina, who gives her all her perks and stats from the moment she was kicked out of her body

[Scootayay]

I never took the "leveling up" or "perks" serious. It's a story, not a game. They are a nice gimmick, but they are the result of a change in character, not the other way around. It's not the "perks" that change the character, they are just a token to show that the character has changed.

[FeatherDust]

The best ending, I think, would be to somehow excise the phoenix talisman but leave her soul behind. Though I think it may be 200 years too late for that.

Why? If you destroy the talisman, it should release the souls inside. We've seen that a body can live without a soul, and from the death of the Goddess we know that if you release bound souls, they return to their bodies if allowed.

So it should be valid to remove the Phoenix, destroy it, and let Rampage's body suck her soul back in.

There might be an extra step involved, though; it seems to me that starmetal can cut soul jars because it attracts the soul energy more strongly than the jar does. It seems likely that the starmetal sword is sucking up the soul from any soul jar it breaks, in any case (in addition to anyone else it kills), so you'd have to destroy the weapon with a moonstone reaction to actually free the soul after destroying the phoenix.

[FeatherDust]

My interpretation is his second sight is a glimps at the destiny of a pony.
Before, he didn't realize it, but he was seeing two destinies in Blackjack. Now those destinies have diverged.

Yeah, that's a good interpretation. I think I like that one better than that Blackjack's talent was to bring bloodshed.

I still like the idea that she "stole" Luna's talent. I'm not sure how else to interpret Boo's comment about swapsies.

[Dekshuduph]

I'm going to decide at Ten in the Morning

...What?

I think he's suggesting Ten[ebra] in the Morning [Glory] as a ship name.

Actually, no, it was just a stupid pun I made to say that I would post my personal choice tomorrow after there's enough suggestions for me to decide on something that actually sounds good. Anyway, I'm kinda late (3 hours) but I agree that Tenebry probably sounds the best.

...Besides, that's kinda long for a ship name, don't you think?

Hahahahaha! After 600 posts, I've finally achieved my great and terrible purpose: linking My Immortal in an in context PH discussion! (Note: this has not actually been my nefarious plan.) Basically, "Enoby" is a frequent misspelling of the name of this fic's—My Immortal being one of the great badfics and/or trollfics of history (if you want a taste, but kept Pony, try Horizon's excellent My Harshwhinnial)—protagonist. It's just not something you necessarily want to think about while discussing a ship.

*slow clap*
What a way to show that you've been to the dark side of the internet on the topic of fanfiction.

"Why do you love me?" Somebody commented under one of my fics some time ago that you cannot use rational thinking when it comes to love. You cannot explain it. Love can happen between two people that are completely different and it can still work, so Glory's argument that BJ has more in common with P than her is completely invalid.

One of my favorite philosophies in life is that, because human sentience is a freak bastardization of nature, we can only rationalize things we do based upon our own survival. Any argument someone makes can be traced back to things our biology dictates we need to do before we die: grow up, survive, fall in love, have babbies and raise babbies. Over half of those involve relations with other people, so it would make sense that our biology also dictates we need to look out for our fellow humans.

Anyways, I have no idea where I was going with that. But I think it's to support that when Glory lost interest in Blackjack because she felt their relationship wasn't working out, she used rational thinking while Blackjack was still using instinctual attraction, and those two things will clash hard.

One more thing, regarding the shipping of Tenebra and Glory... why do shippers give the name to the ship starting with the beginning of one's name and ending of another? It... sorta annoys me. I don't know why, but it just does. Some sound cute, but... I think it's that it creates at least two possible for it. I dunno. But I think that was one of the reasons why in one story I shipped two characters who's names are Starburst and Starfall. Just so people couldn't use that rule for naming ships XD

Whatever sounds good is what people will tend to choose. It's probably not the best idea to spite people who do something you don't understand. Shipping two ponies with similar names like that presents good opportunities for unique ship names, though, so what you tried to do would work at least.

[Icy Shake]

Flux: The substance that causes taint
Taint: The effect of being exposed to flux

I think we can roll with that

The biggest problem with that is that taint was a measurable buildup in the original FoE that the Twilight Society could clean a pony's body of, as they did with Littlepip twice, IIRC.
...and that's kinda how PH handled it too, what with BJ using Folly resulting in increasing percentages of taint contamination.

It's all very wibbly wobbly.

I guess? I can't think of a time that taint as a) a substance extracted from Discord that causes mutations and other weird stuff or b) a noun adjunct modifying something else (e.g. "taint monsters," "taint mutations") doesn't work. And there are plenty of instances of a), in both FoE and PH. I think that taint specifically isn't the changes it causes within the body, because in both stories it's explicitly said that magic can remove taint from a body, but the damage remains; in that sense, having taint be mutations and such only makes things confusing.
The overlap of taint and Flux (note the capital F) is because "Flux" is a trade name: "Biomagical Flux" and "Metamagical Flux," among I believe others, were the names under which Hippocratic marketed Discord extract. Nobody else calls taint Flux because the fact that taint (in the form of raw Flux, or in Hydra, or either I.M.P. or Chimera's enabling formula, or perhaps others) is that product is something that almost nobody knew. They didn't know its source, and it turns out Littlepip's explanation (by this point widely known via The Book of Littlepip) is only partial.

TL;DR: Flux is to taint what Kleenex is to facial tissue.
That's my take, anyway.

My interpretation is his second sight is a glimps at the destiny of a pony.
Before, he didn't realize it, but he was seeing two destinies in Blackjack. Now those destinies have diverged.

Yeah, that's a good interpretation. I think I like that one better than that Blackjack's talent was to bring bloodshed.

I still like the idea that she "stole" Luna's talent.  I'm not sure how else to interpret Boo's comment about swapsies.

Their bodies? Blackjack was in the computer for a while, after all, and even ignoring that the clone body had been in Cognitum's possession.

[SilentCarto]

Neeeerrrrrrrd

Speaking?   

If blanks/Flux clones are immune to Flux, what about the fatties in Hippocratic Research?

Well, "they get even weirder" certainly implies that they don't get "mutated up" like the red ponies. If a drizzling of Flux makes BJ feel like she's had a full meal and a good night's sleep, she must be incorporating it into her body in some way. I'd presume that she's converting it into whatever she needs at the moment; so what would gallons upon gallons do after she was already in perfect health? Maybe start piling on muscle? Remember, despite the name, fatties aren't actually fat. They're described as having "massive twisted knots of flesh and barely restrained bulk". Sounds like a Tank from Left 4 Dead to me.

Though Tenebra and Glory might be a thing, medic and mare who suffers from frequent seizures I imagine they'll be spending a lot of time together in the coming chapters. Assuming Glory doesn't eat it in the next one.

Bow-chicka-*shot*

So, Flux is a protein shake for blanks?
Going by that theory, shouldn't Blackjack have gained some weight by drinking the bottle of Flux? Why isn't she mutating into a fattie herself, or does it take more Flux to have that effect? It should be clarified at least.

Well, why would BJ know what effect it would have? It's not exactly something that anyone who's still alive has researched. Sanguine could probably have told you before he went crazy and died. I honestly have no idea how Triage even knows that Blanks are immune. Did she study with Sanguine at some point, and I've forgotten that?

BJ probably did pick up a little weight, but no more than you would gain by drinking an equal mass of water. Not so you'd notice. I expect it would take dozens of gallons of Flux to bulk out to Fatty proportions.

What do you mean?
I thought the argument was that blanks AREN'T "immune" to taint. That taint is a substance (a kind of flux), and they clearly have a reaction to it.
In which case, we can only decide she misspoke.

"Immune" doesn't mean "no effect". It means it doesn't harm them. The fact that it actually benefits them -- if Triage knows that at all -- is beside the point.

Taint is the effect created by ponies being exposed to the liquified chaos (Blood) of Discord. AKA: Flux.
Taint is those instances where the chaos magic tries to re-write the pony's DNA into another creature, like discord himself, until they are made of mis-matched parts. When you get exposed to enough flux but not enough to finish the transformation, you call it a tumor. The tumor is an unfinished transformation.

My take is that "Taint" is the general term for this mutagenic gunk that'll kill you. Like how "juice" can refer to the sweet, watery liquid extracted from of a lot of different fruits. Taint comes in different flavors, but as far as the common pony is concerned, it's all the same stuff. Dangerous, bypasses protective gear with ease, and can only be cured by specific spells.

Now, if you were something of an expert, like Sanguine, you might realize there are differences based on what the Flux was being used for. First, there's plain old Flux, raw Discord blood. It's pretty much not good for anybody who's not made entirely out of it, and tends to cause tumors and uncontrolled mutation. Also melting and fusion with inanimate objects. This is largely concentrated in the Hoofington region, since that was where it was produced, but this is also probably the most common flavor across the Wasteland -- as Twilight notes, it was used in the creation of a lot of products.

Then there's IMP, which is marginally more benign and will turn you into an alicorn at precisely the right dosage. At the wrong dosage, you get tumors and somewhat more focused mutation.

Finally, there are a thousand variations on the theme of failed IMP, which are as each as focused as IMP but miss the alicorn mutation trajectory altogether. IMP of both sorts is mainly concentrated in the vicinity of Maripony, and elsewhere I'd expect to see it only near labs that worked on the IMP project.

I'm sure there are many other derivative materials that are still just as toxic and tenacious, and still fall under the banner of 'Taint'. I could easily believe a variant that melts bodies into Sparkle-Cola at high doses. Maybe the Taint in Detrot afflicts the victim with metallic cysts or crystal growths. There's a lot of latitude with this stuff.

[SilentCarto]

So we learn that Cogs is even worst actress that Chrysalis. I mean, seriously? She had copied Blackjack's memories and she honestly went with 'hold on with your biological needs until I will find you a replacement"?

Her little drama of taking command of the Harbingers didn't sound particularly convincing either. I think she just doesn't give enough of a shit to put that much effort into the subterfuge when she can simply dust anyone who disagrees. This isn't exactly deep cover -- it only has to hold long enough for her to get the rocket she needs.

After all, 99% of the Hoof would say, "What's a Cognitum?"

[O. Hinds]

I honestly have no idea how Triage even knows that Blanks are immune. Did she study with Sanguine at some point, and I've forgotten that?

Hm. Now that is an interesting question, and an interesting proposition. I don't recall us knowing a tremendous amount about Triage's past, after all, and with Sanguine working with the Reapers and the Collegiate being under Silver Stripe and having its medical interests… Hm. Is she not mentioning something?

[Vinylshadow]

I think "Fatties" result when a blank eats too much flux at once

That, or the template somehow rejected Discords influence and resulted in a mutation

...Hm...there's an idea:

A rogue Flux Pony Blank breaks out into the Wasteland and...things and stuff happen, I guess

[FeatherDust]

I thought the argument was that blanks AREN'T "immune" to taint. That taint is a substance (a kind of flux), and they clearly have a reaction to it.
In which case, we can only decide she misspoke.

"Immune" doesn't mean "no effect". It means it doesn't harm them. The fact that it actually benefits them -- if Triage knows that at all -- is beside the point.

Yeah, this is really splitting the linguistic hairs.  In the context, "immune to" clearly means "not subject to the hazardous effects of", not "completely unaffected by".  If I say dragons are immune to fire, that doesn't mean they are unable to feel it or their bodies are not warmed by it.  It just means they are not injured by fire.

Maybe the Taint in Detrot afflicts the victim with metallic cysts or crystal growths.

I kinda love the idea of mutated crystal ponies with crystal spikes growing out of their bodies instead of lumpy tumors.

Also:
They can process dead blanks to recover the flux that built them.
The original use of blanks was to create replacement limbs and organs.
Now all I can think of is "21st Century Cure" from Repo! The Generic Opera.
(Everyone is living a long time thanks to a valuable anti aging drug that stays in the body after death. During that song, a grave robber is illegally extracting the drug from corpses.)

[FeatherDust]

Considering Blackjack's blank body is immune (heh) to taint, she can now fire Folly with impunity.

I just have this feeling it's going to come down to having to use Folly on Cogjack and give up on getting her body and baby back. Maybe Cogs will relinquish Bj's body or allow them to remove the baby first when she sees she can't win, given her strongly negative reaction to Steel Rain trying to use the baby as leverage.

[Vinylshadow]

It'll either boil down to Folly or the star sword

...or firing the star sword FROM Folly

But Blackjack's probably gonna reprogram Horizons to kill Cogjack by mashing a lot of random buttons

Ya know, the whole "Evil person sees their plan starting to work, cackle madly, then realize its targeting them with no way out" kind of thing

[FeatherDust]

I don't think Somber will be that predictable or straightforward.

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