Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Guest]

Instead people shunned and insulted him, breeding Deus.

You act as if this isn't an appropriate response, that Twist owes him something. I have to ask why? Because he's sorry? That's not a magic word that reverses what happened.

[JadedPony]

[O. Hinds]

Welp.

I'm adopting the swap theory. Thank you, Silent.

What is this?

Sorry, it's difficult to quote on my phone. I was referring to this:

Yeah, I assume it has to do with tricking her into accepting Luna's soul, but I really have no idea what she would have swapped that for. The only other piece of soul in play was BJ's talent.

Wait.
Wait.
Suppose Blackjack gained a white Moon cutie mark. Would we even be able to tell?

Ah. :)

[JadedPony]

Silly ponies.

The-super-obvious-to-a-changling:

Honestly, I was just disappointed that P-21's male mark didn't turn into a explosion like cutie mark after "pushing round five, six, seven..." Obviously Blackjack was shown his true special talent.


As to Twist and Doof, one of the themes that has run through the entire piece was "Do better" or "Be better" if Twist could have shown him even the smallest amount of kindness, not because he deserved it, not because she owed it, but because it made her a better pony and would have gone a long way in breaking the power that the event held over her life, both Twist and Doof would have ended up better pony in the end. It has been alluded to that the anger after the events lead to a rift between Twist and her zebra lover (who's name escapes me). It could have been avoided if she tried to let go of the past and be better for herself and her foal. She should have forgave him not because he deserved it, but because she deserved to have a life free of that hate and so did everyone she loved.

[Icy Shake]

Instead people shunned and insulted him, breeding Deus.

You act as if this isn't an appropriate response, that Twist owes him something. I have to ask why? Because he's sorry? That's not a magic word that reverses what happened.

I look at it from a different perspective: that everyone else, by acting in a way appropriate to their characterizations and the situation (but notably not in accordance with the ideals of either (most of) FiM or PH), ended up making the situation worse (based on the available evidence—from within the story alone, no word of God needed—Doof probably wouldn't have become a monster fueled by a need to revenge himself against all women if he hadn't been abandoned and treated with uninterrupted hatred). Basically, it's a tragedy.

[SilentCarto]

Yeah... that's actually exactly what I started wondering...  Of course since it's something I thought of, it's very likely to be completely wrong, heh...

Well, unicorns raised the sun and moon before the Princesses came along. I wonder how many it would take to spin the moon around and make sure Horizons couldn't come to bear at all?

Not that I think it's likely they'll be able to avoid a climactic final challenge like that.

Well the problem with that is... Harpica was their transportation...  If she's back, they would have to be, or I would expect her to have brought a report back so they'd have something at least to go on.  Which is why I'm certain she's really Chrysalis in disguise (she's not Chrysalis in disguise).

Well, that suggests that either they sent Harpica to take notes on their behalf, or they've gone covert and sent her away to avoid blowing their cover. If they're exactly where they need to be, not much point in keeping the bus waiting around.

Doof would have been happy with a phone call.

I'm sure there are a lot of little things he would have liked that he didn't get in prison. It's not at all unusual for judges to deny rapists any parental right to their children; I just can't see the decision as cruel, or even unreasonable.

You act as if this isn't an appropriate response, that Twist owes him something. I have to ask why? Because he's sorry? That's not a magic word that reverses what happened.

I've got nothing to add but, "This!"

....I toyed around with the idea of a pony having a cutie mark that was the same color of their coat a few weeks ago

I tend to think that wouldn't happen naturally. Cutie marks are supposed to stand out.

Besides, Cognitum didn't have Luna's soul when she stole Blackjack's talent.  For this to happen, when she got her soul back the victory talent would have to take up the space of the moon talent and throw it out (to potentially become attached to Blackjack in looking for a new host)

Well... yeah, that's exactly what I'm proposing.

If blackjack got a moon cutie mark, what does that mean for the story?  What exactly can she do with a 'moon' talent?  I would suspect she'd just be able to move the moon, but without her knowing about that talent, she isn't going to try.

The talent isn't necessarily just manipulating the moon. Remember those sparks of pink and blue that rose to the sun and moon from the star that crashed into the Eater last time?  I have to think that has something to do with moonstone's ability to destroy starmetal. Corrupting Luna was probably the Eater's biggest victory of all time.

There's a story on DA called fallout equestria: wings (I think) and the main character believes he has a bit (Equestrian coin currency not like a bit from a battle saddle or something) cutiemark, but he finds out later when his flank is dyed for some reason I can't remember that it's not a bit his coat color just made it look like that. It was a golden zero. IIRC identity crisis insues or something.

No offense to the author, but I really dislike that brand of story. I belive that finding a cutie mark is a sort of enlightenment -- it's that moment when the pony realizes where they fit into the world, and finds that they're comfortable with it. They don't see the mark and try to figure out what it means; the realization comes first, and the mark reflects it. (This is where the CMCs go wrong with trying a task and then checking their butts. Applejack must have done every chore on the farm dozens of times in her youth, but it wasn't until she came to the internal realization that she wanted to spend her life caring for Sweet Apple Acres that she got her mark.) When a pony finds their talent, they should know what it is without even looking at the picture. As such, it should be impossible to misinterpret one's cutie mark unless one has literally suffered brain damage and forgot their discovery.

So, where does that leave Littlepip and Blackjack? Well... gotta admit, I'm not a fan of that particular aspect of each of their stories. I feel that Pip could have easily understood that her talent was "finding things" without consciously applying it to metaphysical concepts like "the right pony for the job".

In Blackjack's case, I've theorized previously that her oddly vague description of the circumstances surrounding Hatches' death and her own cutie mark's appearance, the way she changed her name shortly afterward, and the fact that her group of friends renamed their dead friend "Hatches" may suggest that BJ is heavily repressing her memory of the whole incident, and for some reason refuses to acknowledge what should be a life-defining moment. That's why I think Cogs may have completely misinterpreted BJ's talent -- that cutie mark does indeed depict a winning hand in blackjack. But her name is actually Go Fish...

[O. Hinds]

Silly ponies.

The-super-obvious-to-a-changling:

Huh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense!

or they've gone covert and sent her away to avoid blowing their cover

Oh, or that.

[SilentCarto]

I look at it from a different perspective: that everyone else, by acting in a way appropriate to their characterizations and the situation (but notably not in accordance with the ideals of either (most of) FiM or PH), ended up making the situation worse (based on the available evidence—from within the story alone, no word of God needed—Doof probably wouldn't have become a monster fueled by a need to revenge himself against all women if he hadn't been abandoned and treated with uninterrupted hatred). Basically, it's a tragedy.

Repentance for wrongdoing means accepting that you deserve whatever response the person you've wronged is willing to offer and trying to make it right to whatever extent you can. If they forgive you, wonderful. If they don't, that's their prerogative. If they don't want to even give you the chance to apologize, they're under no obligation to hear you out. You did the right thing (or tried to), and your peace of mind should be predicated on that, not on the response.

It's true that, ideally, every apology would be matched by forgiveness, but if that becomes expected, I question if it's really an apology at all. More like some kind of... emotional transaction. I pay you one apology, and you sell me one box of forgiveness. Doof's behavior clearly communicates that he belives that his apology obligates Twist to reciprocate in some way, so her failure to do so enrages him. Like Blackjack, he's a very self-centered character -- it's all about my apology and my daughter and how it'll make me feel better. But, then, if he was a more empathetic person, he wouldn't have done what he did in the first place.

[Guest]

^ This.

[JadedPony]

Honestly, I have a problem with him being treated so poorly in the first place. I think there is more to the story than Somber is letting on. Yes, he raped her, but he's obviously mentally retarded, she was in heat, and from the description of how it went down, she seemed to have just let it happen. I'm pretty sure he would have went to prison for the rest of his life but I really don't see him being used in a science experiment like that. It seems illogical. He was the least qualified, least logical pony to use. 

I think someone pushed for him to be the test subject out of vengeance for Twist. Even Vanity felt sorry for him. I don't think Vanity would have been there is Doof wasn't being railroaded and Vanity more than any other pony would know what was really up with Twist.  

I would lay odds that we will find a memory orb or letter of her feeling both angry and guilty for letting it happen. She was smaller, faster, and more well trained in martial arts, and apparently very good at it because the chick who sent Doof in with the idea in his head to "Show her he's a stallion" originally fully expected twist to kick his ass into pulp. I don't think they ever expected him to actually get the job done. They expected her to hospitalize him for trying.   

She was in the middle of a military base, if she had screamed for help I don't think she would have had any problem getting it. Military bases aren't exactly known for their privacy and they have MPs. 

I think that is what really drove the wedge between her and her lover, not the fact that is happened, but the fact she felt bad because she didn't resist more. Perhaps it was the season or the stress, the oppressing death of the war, she needed relief or a connection or she felt like she deserved to be hurt for something she did, but I think she felt just as guilty as Doof did after the fact which is why she reacted the way she did. 

All in all, I think there is much more depth to the story than 

[Guest]

Whoa there. Are you saying because Twist in her drunken state was unable to defend herself against a much, much larger pony she let it happen?

[Silver136]

Instead people shunned and insulted him, breeding Deus.

You act as if this isn't an appropriate response, that Twist owes him something. I have to ask why? Because he's sorry? That's not a magic word that reverses what happened.

Nonetheless, as Jaded said, a recurring theme in PH is "Doing Better" and giving others the chance to do so. And rather than give him a chance, not only Twist, but everyone Doof knew completely cut him off and treated him like dirt. He made a mistake, knew he was wrong, but no one gave him a chance to show it, instead just pushing him to become Deus.

[Guest]

Silver, I'm not going to convince you that's fairly obvious to me. 

By the way does anyone remember what chapter that happened in?  I remember it being pretty clear about what happened. I just want to make sure turning Twist into the villian for Deus sympathy isn't in the cards. To be honest and no offense but that would have to be absolute cheapest way of achieveing that.

[Silver136]

To be honest, that was one of my favorite moments, since while I sympathise or empathize with many villains, Brass was just a bitch. 

And yes, Brass told Doof (full name Doofus) that all twist really wanted was sex, and that she was pretty much just playing hard to get. Being "doofus" he took this at face value.

[Guest]

Personally I don't think that makes him anymore sympathetic than someone who had their bank account cleared out by a Nigerian prince.

Brass is still a huge bitch, but I don't think that makes Deus any less responsible.

[Vinylshadow]

There was a war going on, they didn't have time for emotion

Reading a fanfic when...:

....wow

[JadedPony]

Whoa there. Are you saying because Twist in her drunken state was unable to defend herself against a much, much larger pony she let it happen?

I'm saying that Twist, in her drunken, emotionally distraught state, didn't kick his ass and she probably blames herself for that. It happens all the time. The victim of rape will hate themselves for not doing more to stop it, even if they couldn't possibly do more, and that hate will gnaw at them until they come to terms with it. No one wants to feel helpless so many people will say to themselves, "Why didn't I (Insert long list of things here which were probably impossibly at the time) ?!?!" rather than admit that they couldn't have done anything at all. They end up hating themselves as much as they hate the rapist.

For example Twist might think: "Why didn't I make him leave? Why did I turn my back on him when I was in heat?" or "I should have never let myself be alone with him while I was drunk." or "I should have grabbed a gun!" or any million other "I shoulda, I coulda" scenarios. Victims will do this because admitting that you were truly and totally helpless is hard.

[JadedPony]

Silver, I'm not going to convince you that's fairly obvious to me. 

By the way does anyone remember what chapter that happened in?  I remember it being pretty clear about what happened. I just want to make sure turning Twist into the villian for Deus sympathy isn't in the cards. To be honest and no offense but that would have to be absolute cheapest way of achieveing that.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YYen2Cp1nsQfmm_zdDzi0Cyb_-6GK9nzlDTXCZjnkwY/edit?hl=en_US  <--Chapter 23

I don't think anyone is trying to turn Twist into the villain. Twist was an idiot who obsessed over Applebloom all of her life and Doof was obviously mentally retarded so it was all around a bad situation made worse by Brass.

[Vinylshadow]

I swear, you need degrees in Criminology, Psychology and Philosophy to understand half of the deeper meanings in Project Horizons...and a healthy dose of an understanding of Politics

Maybe I should try college for the third time

Eh, screw it, it helps fuel my deep sadistic desires for depraved violence and sex

I've had some truly terrifying story ideas that would probably net me a room at the Funny Farm for a few years

Tirek completely demolishes the Mane Six and rules Equestria with an iron hoof, with graphic deaths for every one of them...


^{I need to start taking my medicine again}

[Somber]

Here's my two cents regarding Doof and my last two cents.

It's easy to write off a rapist, or any criminal.  The wasteland doesn't exist as a place, but as an attitude.  As an 'It's okay to kill X because of Y.'  It's easy to simply say someone who screwed up deserves whatever shit is given to them.  Are they unhappy and miserable because they screwed up and know it?  Sure.  Hell, why stop punishing them once they're out of prison?  They were scum once and they'll be scum again.  Never forgive.  Never forget.  Never let THEM forget.

Should Twist have been forced to meet or talk with Doof?  Of course not.  But that didn't mean that Doof forfeited his own emotion, self worth, and desire to be a better person.  Ultimately he succumbed to the attitude that he deserved pain and misery.  And if you're in pain, why not inflict pain?  If you are humiliated, why not humiliate others.  We have hundreds of thousands of people that we lock up in deplorable conditions with minimal effort to restore them to a condition where they can be productive members of society again.

Doof fucked up.  He fucked up big.  But had a little compassion been extended his way, he would have been able to move past his mistake.  And it didn't have to come from Twist; that would be a bit too much.  But it could have come from Vanity or the judges or any number of others along the way.  It would have prevented a little bit of the wasteland from spreading even before the bombs fell.

Full disclosure, I was a victim of sexual abuse for about six years.  My abuser killed herself.  I don't hate her.  I wish she hadn't done what she did to me and others, but she was a paranoid schizophrenic.  I wish she'd gotten stopped and gotten help.  Maybe I'm wierd like that.  I dunno.  But that's why Doof is in this story.

It's easy to forgive heroes.  It's not to easy to forgive the people that just screwed up.  To spend the time and money to make sure they do better...

[JadedPony]

I swear, you need degrees in Criminology, Psychology and Philosophy to understand half of the deeper meanings in Project Horizons...and a healthy dose of an understanding of Politics

Eh, screw it, it helps fuel my deep sadistic desires for depraved violence and sex

"drip... drip... drip... "

Hahaha! I actually like the dichotomy of the dark twistedness with the bright cheerful nature of ponies and the morals they are naturally driven towards. The sex doesn't hurt either to keep it spicy but I think Somber has done a good job of keeping it balanced. Not everyone is a raping, murdering, asshole. Those kind of people/pony are very rare in the world (1% at most). The stories reflect that, even in the wasteland where life is harder than Dwayne Johnson's abs, most ponies still try and be good ponies.


The raider's illness goes a long way towards keeping it real, because honestly, not that many pony should be that fucked up unless they are infected with something. It's the little, well thought out, touches like that which make Project Horizons head and shoulders above the masses of stories.  


Also things like this make the story 20% cooler: 

But that's why Doof is in this story. It's easy to forgive heroes.  It's not to easy to forgive the people that just screwed up. To spend the time and money to make sure they do better...

[JadedPony]

I look at it like this, if Brass had given Doof a tray of cookies with poison in them and told him to give them to Twist to make her feel better, would he be a murderer? Would he be guilty of murder if he didn't know he was killing her? No, he would be guilty of manslaughter. Still a crime, but not the same crime. 

So too should he not have been punished to the full extent of the law and beyond for what he did. He didn't understand what he did was wrong. It was wrong, but it wasn't like normal rape. He was an idiot, not a monster. Then when everyone saw him as a monster they treated him like one until he became one.

[Derpmind]

It was wrong, but it wasn't like normal rape.

I don't think most of us here are mentally equipped to discuss what does and doesn't constitute "normal rape."

If there was ever going to be the slightest shred of possibility that Twist's rape was more complicated in any way, Somber would have written those details in somewhere by now. Somber hasn't at all.

Now we all like to read a bit too deep into story possibilities here, but "the rape was (even partially) the victim's fault" is an attitude that is absolutely disgusting and I'd really rather we not try and discuss it. Most of the people here probably won't participate if things do go that way, and personally I feel it's beyond my experience to even try.

I am offended and uncomfortable. I bet I'm not the only one either.

[JadedPony]

It was wrong, but it wasn't like normal rape.

I don't think most of us here are mentally equipped to discuss what does and doesn't constitute "normal rape."

If there was ever going to be the slightest shred of possibility that Twist's rape was more complicated in any way, Somber would have written those details in somewhere by now. Somber hasn't at all.

Now we all like to read a bit too deep into story possibilities here, but "the rape was (even partially) the victim's fault" is an attitude that is absolutely disgusting and I'd really rather we not try and discuss it. Most of the people here probably won't participate if things do go that way, and personally I feel it's beyond my experience to even try.

I am offended and uncomfortable. I bet I'm not the only one either.

You managed to misread the previous posts. No one, at all, is suggesting it was Twist's fault. 

[Civility intensifies]

[Somber]

Stop please, Jaded.  Please keep this civil.

[Guest]

Personally I don't think that makes him anymore sympathetic than someone who had their bank account cleared out by a Nigerian prince.

Brass is still a huge bitch, but I don't think that makes Deus any less responsible.

I'm honestly not sure how retarded he is.
If he was on the level Lenny (Of Mice and Men), I think that might be debatable.
(I would figure everyone's been made to read the book, but basically, the guy really, REALLY liked to pet soft things, he would just often pet them too hard, and one time he saw this one woman and her hair was so soft...)
I don't think we get many clips of him interacting with ponies before he was upgraded, after which it's pretty clear he got some kind of intelligence boost.

I'm not sure he's... Mentally lacking. At least not to that extent, I don't think he would have been in the marauders to begin with if he was.  If I remember correctly wasn't Deus in love with Twist? I took what Brass said and Deus did as less he was tricked into believeing her lie and more that he wanted to believe it, so he did.

[Vinylshadow]

He's a dangerous kind of genius

[FeatherDust]

Finally read this chapter... don't really have many comments that haven't been posted already (that I know of, I'm skimming a bit on the reviews), but I wanted to bring this up.

Big Daddy's second sight has me really wondering. He said she used to be "blood and stars" to his eyes, but now Cognitum is "just blood" and Blackjack is "only stars".

Well, assuming he's seeing her soul, for want of a better term, that suggests part of Blackjack's soul is missing and hanging out with Cognitum. And we know that's the case -- it's her cutie mark.

So is Blackjack's talent the source of the "blood" and her Maiden-nature the source of the "stars"?

In fact...

Suppose Blackjack gained a white Moon cutie mark. Would we even be able to tell?

Dude. That's brilliant. And that makes sense...

Luna was the previous Maiden of the Stars. Suppose that taking the Victory (if that's what it is) talent transferred the Luna-soul's talent back to Blackjack. That would mean she's both star-touched by bloodline and by inheritance from Luna... In other words, the true, actual, and only Maiden of the Stars.

[Vinylshadow]

...So Blackjack is a direct blood-relative of Luna...somehow?

[Vinylshadow]

So part of Blackjack was destined to bring blood to the Wasteland, while another was destined to bring the stars

...

Blackjack is going to use the Star Spirit to defeat Cogjack, isn't she?

Probably yell at it drunkenly as well

[Sponsored content]