Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Guest]

I'm ambivalent about the RD/MDW plotline. I think I mentioned (and you definitely said as much) that it did seem like there wasn't enough time for all this stuff to go down, and that if it was going to go down I'd have liked to see more lead-up. That said, it wasn't too badly handled, considering; I'm just not sure it was the right decision to introduce her here, like this. Going back and changing things is your call, of course; I'd counsel either letting the arc drop right quick or going back and doing some shearing and trimming, personally, but that's just me. In terms of knowing what happened to RD, I don't really feel I need to know, but nor do I care overmuch about knowing (as no doubt some do - certain things about the original are held sacred in many circles). /shrug I was fine with it unresolved, and am fine with it being resolved here.

[Downloaded Skill]

I honestly would have felt a little better about the MDW thing if she had helped our group at one or two points in the past. It seems like she was introduced and dealt with a bit too quickly. On the other hand it does make some sense that MDW would focus on the Enclave more since she, like BJ, wants the Enclave to do better. That was the reason RD defected from the Enclave in the first place right, before the bombs fell?

Besides that it also feels like with the abilities and tech RD has she should have been able to do something more substantial in Thunderhead. She essentially has the keys to go anywhere and she can go invisible.

[Technowolf]

The only question I have is why she didn't use the SPP to just make the Enclave go fwoosh, since the shield would have let her through.

Maybe the shield only recognizes living ponies, and RD is (only mostly) dead.

[O. Hinds]

@Somber:
I'm biased, of course, but I say keep it the way it is.

The only question I have is why she didn't use the SPP to just make the Enclave go fwoosh, since the shield would have let her through.

The problem with that idea is what happens after the fwoosh. Sure, Dash could have smashed the Enclave, opened the sky, etc… And then what? Rule over the pegasi as an undead goddess-queen? Construct a new government? Rainbow Dash? Over most of the GPE's history, it did actually keep the pegasi safe, and the stories about the surface were in large part true. While the government has its faults, I can very much see Dash not thinking herself up to replacing it, instead just trying to do good here and there. Of course, things grew worse over time, and then one day her bright adopted grandson came to her with a plan that seemed like it just might work…
Oh, and let's not forget this:

“No, she’s a stable pony unicorn who in two hundred years will use the Single Pegasus Project to defeat the Enclave,” Pinkie Pie blurted

If Dash remembered that, which doesn't seem too unlikely… Well, Pinkie had been right so far, and the Element of Loyalty made a promise to a friend anyway.

Besides that it also feels like with the abilities and tech RD has she should have been able to do something more substantial in Thunderhead. She essentially has the keys to go anywhere and she can go invisible.

In addition to that, not only would she have been particularly busy above the clouds during PH, she would probably focus on weaker Wastelanders. On the left you have an average caravan outnumbered two to one by a raider ambush; on the right you have a similar raider ambush but against a melee fighter who can't die, an alicorn with a minigun, and a cyberpony with a vorpal sword. If you were going to try and by a mysterious stranger helping out the Wasteland, which group would you lend aid to?

[Guest]

@Hinds
For my part, I don't think Dash not appearing sooner is unrealistic, just a bit problematic from a pacing/story point of view (more so considering how much foreshadowing a lot of other things had).

[Scienza]

@Somber:
I'm biased, of course, but I say keep it the way it is.

The only question I have is why she didn't use the SPP to just make the Enclave go fwoosh, since the shield would have let her through.

The problem with that idea is what happens after the fwoosh. Sure, Dash could have smashed the Enclave, opened the sky, etc…  And then what?  Rule over the pegasi as an undead goddess-queen?  Construct a new government?  Rainbow Dash?  Over most of the GPE's history, it did actually keep the pegasi safe, and the stories about the surface were in large part true.  While the government has its faults, I can very much see Dash not thinking herself up to replacing it, instead just trying to do good here and there.  Of course, things grew worse over time, and then one day her bright adopted grandson came to her with a plan that seemed like it just might work…
Oh, and let's not forget this:

The problem I have with that is that Rainbow wasn't just focused on the Enclave, but Equestria as whole. The whole reason behind her rejection of the Enclave was how they abandoned Equestria. I don't think she would've just accepted that the ponies below were dying while the Enclave prospered, especially when you take this quote

He once calculated that if we’d ended the isolation policy fifty years after the bombs fell, we would have prevented almost a million deaths and hundreds of millions of bits wasted in rationing.

into account. She could have made the fwoosh at any point between then and now. She could've even just sealed herself behind the shield and used the threat of fwoosh to make the Enclave help the surface.


Though, technowolf's theory that she couldn't get through the shield due to her ghoulishness (her DNA would certainly have been ripped to shreds by the radiation) does make a lot of sense and seems very plausible.

This doesn't change my opinion on using RD, it's just something I was thinking about.

[O. Hinds]

Oh, yes, if Rainbow had had that calculation then, from somepony she trusted, she'd have done it. If she was confident in her ability to run things, she'd have done it. (Both assume that she either doesn't remember or doesn't care about Pinkie's prophesy about LittlePip, of course.)
However, this is Rainbow Dash, who is not a tremendously smart pony and knows it. This is, more particularly, Rainbow Dash who just saw the world end, and she'd if anything been helping it along. I highly doubt that the ministries, apocalypse, etc. were doing good things for her self-confidence where any large-scale endeavors were concerned, and it's very easy for me to see her thinking "I'd love to do something about it, but I'd probably just make things worse; all I'm really good at is personal derring-do, so that's what I'll use to help out however I can".

And, yeah, maybe being a ghoul prevents her from actually getting through the shield. I kind of prefer the psychological explanation, though.

[Derpmind]

Technically the only issue is the eventual explanations for why Gilda left RD's corpse behind, and why RD didn't use the SPP to remove the perpetual cloud cover. But I think there's a bigger issue here: Rewriting PH. Let's be honest, having MMDW show up throughout the story is an awesome idea, and we know Somber can pull it off like noone else can, but it's a big piece on the pile of little things that would improve the story in a bunch of editing. (No, I'm not talking about Snipehamster's idea of a destructive rewrite, just rejiggering [not technically the right word here, but w/e] stuff so all the pieces fit together better.) For right now, if you think that the arc for RD is too much in too short a time, it might be best to reduce RDs interactions with BJ and give her some reasons to stay out of the spotlight most of the time. Or have RD do most of that arc offscreen in PH, but put it in its own side-story. (Now I know your first reaction is that that's more writing and therefore crazy, but remember your goal is to write this most awesome story that makes lots and lots... and lots and lots of people happy. If you feel that you've got an awesome sub-story to tell with RD as MDW but not enough space to put it in, consider keeping those ideas around.) But for going back and editing older chapters, I really don't think now is the time to do so. Maybe after you finish, (and take a nice break,) you can go back and fix things up before putting a new version up on Fimfiction. The sad fact is, most people keeping up with the story right now probably won't go back to read a bunch of new stuff scattered throughout the earlier parts of the story just to make sense of stuff introduced in the new and current chapters. That's not to say a re-edit isn't worth it: There's tons of readers who are waiting for the fimfiction version or just the story to finish, and they're perfectly willing to wait a little longer. And for the people making translations and audio recordings are already crazy, so they'd be totally game. (Also, technically, because of the continual little editing stuff they're already inaccurate a bunch.)

Also, STOP READING 4CHAN! PLEASE!  

[Scienza]

Also, STOP READING 4CHAN! PLEASE!  

I can't second this enough.

[Stringtheory]

Also, STOP READING 4CHAN! PLEASE!  

I can't second this enough.

Thirded.

[Aonee]

Also, STOP READING 4CHAN! PLEASE!  

I can't second this enough.

Thirded.

Fourth'd.

[Evilgidgit]

Also, STOP READING 4CHAN! PLEASE!  

I can't second this enough.

Thirded.

Fourth'd.

Fifthed! Is that even a word?

[Guest]

Anticipatory seventh'd?

[WavemasterRyx]

Also, STOP READING 4CHAN! PLEASE!  

I can't second this enough.

Thirded.

Fourth'd.

Fifthed! Is that even a word?

Anticipatory seventh'd?

I'll 6th this. And the ponies in my head will cover +8 through +20.

If you really feel like you have to do something, Somber, I would say go with your original idea and turn Mare Do Well back into a mysterious character. But I believe in you, and in Hinds, and if Hinds thinks things will be okay if you keep it as it is, then I have confidence that things can work out okay.

[O. Hinds]

Also, STOP READING 4CHAN! PLEASE!  

I can't second this enough.

Thirded.

Fourth'd.

Fifthed! Is that even a word?

Anticipatory seventh'd?

I'll 6th this.  And the ponies in my head will cover +8 through +20.

If you really feel like you have to do something, Somber, I would say go with your original idea and turn Mare Do Well back into a mysterious character.  But I believe in you, and in Hinds, and if Hinds thinks things will be okay if you keep it as it is, then I have confidence that things can work out okay.

Oh, thanks.


And yes, I still don't think that we need to change anything already published for this. We might want to throw some further information (such as why Rainbow Dash hasn't used the SPP; while I believe that her not using it conflicts with nothing we've seen so far, some people might want elaboration) into later chapters, but I don't think that we need to do even that.

[Icy Shake]

What to do with Rainbow Dash is a bit of a tough question. I certainly have no problem with her remaining a part of the story, but some extra explanation over the next chapter or two wouldn't hurt. I think there is plenty to explain why she didn't use SPP, though it helps if getting into Shadowbolt Tower doesn't require passing any bypass spells. It does seem like she's been keeping things pretty low key, but planning for the end game of Lighthooves's charade helps cover that for the duration of PH, at least.
If you do end up going back and fitting her in past chapters, might I suggest dealing with the zombies attacking the family on the way from the Collegiate to the Skyport in chapter twenty seven? It could fit in such that Blackjack has her realization that she doesn't really care if they live or die, keep that feeling, and then MDW comes in to save the day and jets off. She then can go and trade with the family and have her change (back) of heart, now with something instigating it.
I'd say the most important thing, though, is to bear Snipehamster's advice in mind, but with an important twist: you want to maintain a pace commensurate with that of the rest of the story, perhaps sped somewhat because you are building up to the climax. Cutting out all but the bare-bones progression of the main plot (some exaggeration of his stance) would therefore be a mistake, in my opinion, as that would be immensely out of keeping with how everything else has been written to date.

[Edit 1]As for 4chan, I have mixed feelings. Epistemic closure is not a good thing, so I wouldn't say you shouldn't go there at all, and I know how much you care about thoughtful criticism. Rather, it's important to remember that you shouldn't spend too much time worrying about pleasing a group that consistently objects to most of your major choices: if you aren't carefully selective about what to take to heart, you'd essentially give up every major plot and character point you've written over the last two years.
[Edit 2]And yes, I'm aware of the irony of Edit 1 following the suggestion in my original post.

[Downloaded Skill]

I'm with Swicked on this one. Given Somber's propensity to foreshadow things well in advance the lack of foreshadowing on Mare do well / RD is kind of jarring. I'm not asking for a rewrite, but I just wanted to voice my thoughts.

More explanation would be nice as well, I think it would give Somber an opportunity to explore RD's character and how it changed after the war. 

Regarding 4chan can we please not bring that here? I know they sometimes have valid opinions, but they are masters of hyperbole and spend as much time being petty assholes as they do criticizing something.

[Scienza]

I would like it if Mare Do Well were to of had multiple other appearances throughout the story, given she's apparently a well-known myth.
In fact, as a further tie-in to the Fallout universe, I'd like it if BJ had occasionally come across survivalist caches like you find in honest hearts. A couple diary entries about a mare living through the apocalypse and doing her best to survive and help who she can. It'd be interesting if she even came across others we know that were roaming around then, like Psalm. Nested foreshadowing, you know? :P

The original FoE tied in Equestria with Fallout at every available opportunity. PH, I think, has often been looser with that, but I think combining the mysterious stranger with the survivalist would be cool.

One way or another, I think there NEED to be references to her.

While I agree that an increased integration of MDW might be nice, I'm not sure if I agree with you that greater ties to Fallout is necessarily preferable. While it's an integral part of the canon (after all, it's half the title), I feel that Project Horizons has been able to do more than most side stories because of it's disconnect from Fallout. In my opinion, the constant ties to Fallout were some of the weaker parts of the original for a variety of reasons, ranging from that I don't feel that Fallout's writing translates that well into a novel format, to that it often held Kkat back creatively (it's certainly one of the major reasons that she's often accused by outsiders of ripping off Fallout's storylines). It's not bad, since the Fallout-ification is one of the major draws of FoE and what gives the universe such a unique tone, just that constant reference isn't necessarily good. It's why I don't feel that Heroes has blossomed nearly as much as I would like, since it's pretty much a (very nice) cast of characters shoved into a pony version of New Vegas.

This is an aside though. I do really like the idea of combining the survivalist caches with MDW. The two would really work well together.

And once again, Somber, you don't need to rewrite everything. One or two references inserted into one of the earlier chapters to make Mare Do Well's appearance slightly less out-of-the-blue and you should be fine.

[SilentCarto]

Chapter 61 Commentary:

Editing:

Previous Chapter Editing:

Oh, and one more thing...

Spoiler:

[SilentCarto]

I felt my insides lurch as I read, ‘Littlepip’, ‘Blackjack’, ‘Zebra(?) filly(?)’ in that nest of connections.

Does a zebra(?) filly(?) mean Rampage?

Given it's listed after Littlepip and Blackjack, I figured it was a wasteland heroine(s) from some other fic(s). After all, there were a fair amount of shout-outs in that scene.

I know, but I can't think of anyone that fits that description. Maybe someone else can. The question marks suggest some confusion on the points, though -- for example, Silver Stripe fits "Zebra(?)" but certainly couldn't be mistaken for a filly. Rampage seems like a good candidate as someone who looks like a zebra but isn't, and only sometimes looks like a filly.

[O. Hinds]

Chapter 61 Commentary:

Editing:

Previous Chapter Editing:

Oh, and one more thing...

Spoiler:

Ah, thank you. Some of your errors were already spotted and corrected, but others had not been. Your corrections to the EME were also quite appreciated.

...do you have a scrambler on that transmitter? Or are you just broadcasting this conversation to an entire city full of technologically-advanced pegasi?

A scrambler, a beamed transmission rather than a broadcast, and/or low power, I expect.

[Scienza]

I felt my insides lurch as I read, ‘Littlepip’, ‘Blackjack’, ‘Zebra(?) filly(?)’ in that nest of connections.

Does a zebra(?) filly(?) mean Rampage?

Given it's listed after Littlepip and Blackjack, I figured it was a wasteland heroine(s) from some other fic(s). After all, there were a fair amount of shout-outs in that scene.

I know, but I can't think of anyone that fits that description. Maybe someone else can. The question marks suggest some confusion on the points, though -- for example, Silver Stripe fits "Zebra(?)" but certainly couldn't be mistaken for a filly. Rampage seems like a good candidate as someone who looks like a zebra but isn't, and only sometimes looks like a filly.

Maybe's she's Xenith's daughter (whose name I'm blanking on), the filly who leads the Angels.

[Penby]

I felt my insides lurch as I read, ‘Littlepip’, ‘Blackjack’, ‘Zebra(?) filly(?)’ in that nest of connections.

Does a zebra(?) filly(?) mean Rampage?

Given it's listed after Littlepip and Blackjack, I figured it was a wasteland heroine(s) from some other fic(s). After all, there were a fair amount of shout-outs in that scene.

I know, but I can't think of anyone that fits that description. Maybe someone else can. The question marks suggest some confusion on the points, though -- for example, Silver Stripe fits "Zebra(?)" but certainly couldn't be mistaken for a filly. Rampage seems like a good candidate as someone who looks like a zebra but isn't, and only sometimes looks like a filly.

Maybe's she's Xenith's daughter (whose name I'm blanking on), the filly who leads the Angels.

I thought the filly would have been Puppysmiles.

[Caoimhe]

I'm late to the game here but I can't believe how much I love this arc. These last two chapters have been phenomenal. MDW reveal was fantastic, we have Glory back to normal, a little star wars thingy and Pinks revealed as a clairvoyant. This is some great material here ughhhhhh. I just wish I coulda finished it earlier.


Oh, I think I've mentioned this before but I'm not too keen on "the Neighvaro" being the denomym for pegasai from Neighvaro. It should be along the lines of "Neighvarren" or to be more specific and in line with the Latin, "Neighvargonese." 

Little things, but welp.



E: Now that i notice people looking for more RD foreshadowing, it wouldn't be completely out of line to switch pace for a short in medias res telling of how RD managed to survive and become MDW. It's used a lot in fiction to bring a reader up to speed on a reintroduced character and could certainly offer decent explanation rather than re-adding a bunch of references in the past. It could also tie up a lot of other things since RD being alive is a big big deal in all of FoEniverse. 

Dash's cocky, boisterous character fits very well with the tone of PH, so you could pull it off. Replacing her lessens the reveal and the importance of MDW in the story. FoE purists just can't handle any sort of original development, sadly.

[O. Hinds]

FoE purists just can't handle any sort of original development, sadly.

I've been thinking this, I must admit, though not quite in those words, and not just about the Rainbow Dash thing.

What do you mean by "switch pace"?

[Caoimhe]

I was postulating a wild concept of opening the next chapter with a short story of Rainbow Dash getting to where she is now and conclude it with whatever is going on in the present, but then I realized that a drastic change of focus is what ruined the end of FoE so maybe that might not be the best idea.

Who knows, I really don't see needing to flesh out where RD was at all, really. Not everything needs to be told.

FoE purists just can't handle any sort of original development, sadly.

I've been thinking this, I must admit, though not quite in those words, and not just about the Rainbow Dash thing.

4chan seems to be guilty of this the most, especially with regards to PH. I really don't understand why FoE is supposed to be this untouchable work of art. It's average storytelling at best with meh and even trite characters. The setting is what's important and PH does nothing (so far) to change the original story.

Sadly, sometimes I think PH is harmed by the fact that FoE exists and Somber is limited by the source material and need to keep within some form canon.


vvvv erk, yeah.

[O. Hinds]

Who knows, I really see needing to flesh out where RD was at all, really. Not everything needs to be told.

Don't see, you mean? I agree.

[Scienza]

I was postulating a wild concept of opening the next chapter with a short story of Rainbow Dash getting to where she is now and conclude it with whatever is going on in the present, but then I realized that a drastic change of focus is what ruined the end of FoE so maybe that might not be the best idea.

Who knows, I really don't see needing to flesh out where RD was at all, really. Not everything needs to be told.

I'm not quite as sure about not needing to flesh out Rainbow Dash. Her being alive is huge, both in it's implications and in what Somber can do with it. Since RD got so badly shafted by the original, we know pretty much nothing about her pre-war or post-war. Somber can literally do anything with her while still staying within the bounds of the universe (while I agree with you that FoE isn't necessarily the best direct story, it's lore is still fantastic and the main draw of the fic. While you don't need to slavishly obey it, not deviating too far is recommended, to maintain internal consistency if nothing else.)

[Caoimhe]

All true, I was trying to think of interesting ways to do it rather than a holyfuck long memory orb or drawn out question and answer session as required rather than going back and inserting hints.

Not that Somber couldn't do any of the above excellently... hmmm...

[Moodyman90]

Wasn't there a joke going around at one point in time that Project Horizons was the actual main story and the original Fallout Equestria was the side fic that just happened to come out first?

Just something that popped into my mind today, no bearings on anything else.

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