Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Derpmind]

Hmm. Small chance we might see the name Mephitis pop up again soon. He was the director of the Yellow River Detainment Camp, did evil things and went to Thunderhead with a bag full of money. BJ downloaded the audio recordings he left. There's also Switftwing, who got stuck in that 'Special Processing' holding cell and BJ got the recordings she left.

“The Star Maiden is she who is born from the cursed soil of the damned city.  She will be flesh and steel, touched by the stars and chosen as their champion.  Where she travels, chaos and strife will follow,” Xanthe said as she trotted in our wake.  Why, I couldn’t imagine.  “It is she that shall bear evil from the ground, usher in the final days of the world, snuff out the sun forever and call down the moon.  She shall summon storms, unleash plague, command unholy fire, destroy all in her path and all who follow in her wake.  Female shall desire female, male shall desire male, and unholy coupling between the species will commence where she travels.”

“Damn…” Bluebelle snickered and leered at the zebra.  “I’m getting moist right now just hearing all this.”

 

Turns out we’ve got records of a disease like that.”

“Director Mephitis?” I asked.

“Mhmmm.  One of the oldest medical families in the Enclave wrote about it.”

The ending's still black.

It's kinda weird, this seems like it could be split into two chapters: The gang fight and the detention center. But they do work together. We see two sides of a Reaper: The fighter that bands others together, and the unstoppable monster that kills everything. That's not the best way to describe it, but y'all know what I mean.

[Vergil]

I'm finally back here again and my week has been way more awesome than it has had any right to be.

I blame 58.

[Somber]

I'm finally back here again and my week has been way more awesome than it has had any right to be.

I blame 58.

 sorry.

Also, Sorry to Ryx too.  ::Hugs::  While I wanted feels, I don't want to create distress.

@swicked.  Rampage is so upset because two things.  One, someone she knew and liked is dead.  Rampage doesn't like many people.  Lacunae was calm and collected and beautiful and powerful, all things that Rampage admired.  Now she's gone.  And that hurts Rampage.  She doesn't want to lose ponies she actually cares about.  But she's also dead.  And that makes her back track.  For the last few weeks she's been able to put dying out of her mind.  She's been fairly happy.  Now she's reminded of why she wants to die and she envies Lacunae.  That's all.

[WavemasterRyx]

Also, Sorry to Ryx too.  ::Hugs::  While I wanted feels, I don't want to create distress.

*hugs you back gently*
It's alright, sir, you didn't do anything wrong, it's just me being silly and overemotional as always. You have to write the story the way you need to, and if that means characters are going to die, then that's just the way it has to be. I'm sad that she's gone, but I don't blame you or anything.

I'm sorry about all the tears, but you can take some consolation that you've better eyesight than me.

Thank you, Hinds. Well, we'll see anyways, I have an appointment to get a routine checkup on my eyes later today, actually.

[Ketchup]

58, thoughts:

three little typos present at the time of reading:

[O. Hinds]

@Ketchup:
Ah, thank you for the error spotting.

[Meleagridis]

Anyone think it's about time for another memory dive into Rampage? By now, you'd think BJ is as used to mental violation as dying.

Anyhow, to elaborate on earlier: Lacunae returned all her memories and personalities to their rightful spots, in the alicorns from which they came, presumably including the body she used. Now think back-- don't we know who Lacunae's body is? Someone singled out for punishment by a vengeful Goddess for an unrelenting (corrupted) hope in a pointless murder mission. Do Psalm's memories go back? Remember, Lacunae's body didn't die, it flew off. The chances are good that all the memories are back in place, along with her personality. Way back I've said a few times that Lacunae is Psalm, but recent chapters (particularly a very clear sentence in this one) have proven that assumption to be false. Lacunae is not Psalm. Psalm is much more dangerous.

When Psalm's personality was severed and stored, she was a monster with a mission. There was nothing in her life but fulfillment of those exceedingly simple conditions: Kill anyone capable of activating EC-1101 and, consequently, Project Horizons (if I remember correctly). Now I'm still fuzzy on the nature of minds and memories and souls, but if I understand correctly these things are all very distinct. Even if the memories of what once was Lacunae are kept within the vessel that experienced them, there really isn't any reason to suspect that it will affect Psalm. She will not see it through Lacunae, she will see these memories through herself. She won't have the humility, the self awareness, the regret of those countless minds in Unity. She'll just have herself. And I don't think that knowing Lacunae's life, if even this occurs, will change Psalm's conviction. She was already past the point of no return, now nothing can be allowed to sway her from the mission. Kill all official personal capable of using EC-1101. Kill the princesses. Kill the ministry mares.

And their descendants.

Lacunae's life will not lead to Psalm's redemption. It will only lead her to the only survivor of Ministry lineage known to the alicorn.

[Guest]

But wouldn't she know Psychoshy was related to a ministry mare as well?

[Meleagridis]

But wouldn't she know Psychoshy was related to a ministry mare as well?

Well, yes. But she'd also know that Psychoshy has been secreted away to some batcave while Blackjack will be thundering visibly through the Hoof and possibly trust the body that Psalm will have. Much more appealing, especially when you consider that this will be her best chance to die.

[SilentCarto]

"Facts and figures I recite with ease.  The square root of five hundred and forty-six is twenty-three point three six six six four two eight nine one zero nine."

So Twilight does all the thinking for all of them? Is that really what you're saying?

No, Twilight just handles the heavy probability calculations. And there are others in the Unity who can donate their combat expertise to come up with a time-to-defeat. That's the power of Unity.

Question: Weren't there more lockers with known codes to them?

Nope. There are more with unknown codes, though. We've yet to open Jetstream, Applesnack, Echo, Twist, or Mac himself.

Question: If the goddess shutters doubt away inside Lacunae, how does she form plans? Just the first thing that pops into her head?

Cold probability calculations?

Question/Low: Just how the hell do memories work? Memories separated from a pony appear as, essentially, memory orbs, it seems. Not knowledge. A memory of being trained in something would be like a memory orb to any pony other than the one that owns the memory, to who it is just knowledge of the training, correct? Or not correct? What is Psalm's shared training? Why does Blackjack have to live though all other memories she touches in Lacunae? I don't get this! Shouldn’t she have to live though every last day in front of Psalm’s training instructor to gain this knowledge?

No more than she needs to relive Twilight's time in Magic Kindergarten to borrow teleport spells from the Unity. She would need to do that if she hoped to retain the skills later, but as long as she's plugged in, she can borrow skills freely -- I think it's sort of like having someone telling you exactly what to do, but at a lower level. Rather than whispering instructions in your ear, you just know what bits do what, how it should feel, and what actions to take. Just like how she picked up on teleportation in her fight with Pain Train.

Question: how do you figure the distance on Littlepip's temple though all that building in the way? You can't sight her. This would be one heck of a hard headshot...

Actually, that would be the easy part. BJ twiddled the scope's depth setting on-screen. So you just have to adjust the depth until the target vanishes, then back off until she reappears and look at what range the dial is set to. But I would bet that the scope has its elevation adjustment slaved to the depth-of-field control, so it's always zeroed for the range you're looking at anyway. There's presumably a second adjustment for inclination, but it might even have an automatic clinometer adjusting the bullet-drop-by-distance ratio on the fly. At least, that's how I'd design it if I had unlimited resources and Sufficiently Advanced Magic.

Hell, with an enchanted bypass bullet, you don't even have to worry about windage -- air isn't flesh, so it passes right through! (The enchantment presumably doesn't activate until it leaves the barrel, because firing the bullet would otherwise be kind of awkward.)

[SilentCarto]

I think having the brain destroyed and the head removed are a bit different. Maybe it's something the talisman has built in, to save energy? It doesn't regenerate what can be recovered?

Her body collapsed when Blueblood beheaded her. I'll grant it didn't instantly go limp, but it sure didn't swing around and start beating the crap out of him.

There's another explaination:  Botched writing trying for humor.

Yyyyyeah... in this one particular case, I sort of have to agree. I mean, it was a funny mental image, but the mental "WTF?" sort of overwhelmed the humor for me. Maybe it could have just sliced off her face? Icky, but workable.

[Moodyman90]

Wasn't Psalm's final moments of her trying to get herself killed by Twilight while trying to kill Twilight? And even if she doesn't remember that part, she still spent weeks getting to Maripony just so she could get herself killed by Twilight. She had a deathwish because she knew everything she had done to that point was pointless, that she had been used to clean up the mess of others. She only kept going because she she just couldn't quit.

And unless we go with she knows Blackjack is Twilight's decendent because that enter the general hive mind knowledge of Unity rather then actual memories from Lacunae, would it really matter?

If Psalm comes back and isn't a confused mess who can only function with the help of other alicorns as support, honestly the only real reason she'd seek out Blackjack is attempt to get herself killed. And between looking like Lacunae and the fact it would be Psalm... who Blackjack got to experience nearly her entire life...

Now I hate to be this guy, but just what would the point of having Psalm show up and attacking Blackjack? Granted if anybody could pull it off it's Somber but it would be:

"Lacunae back!"
Psalm attacks.
"Why is she attacking us?"
The whole group fights Psalm resulting in Blackjack getting close and asking something along the lines of "Why are you attacking us? Revenge for the Goddess?"
Psalm would then say something about "earning my forgiveness" which would of course Blackjack would pick up on and go "Psalm?"

And then what? What is the point? Once again I hate to be that guy but Psalm showing up would , granted in my opinion, cheapen Lacunae's death. Cause Psalm showing up would either end with "And she's dead. Now we really won't ever see our friend again." *sadface*
The other option is that she joins the group, so... yeah it's not really Lacunae but it renders her death pointless because she'd be replaced with herself.

I know this is a "what if" and all but I simply can't get behind it.

[Guest]

BJ has a higher chance of killing psalm? I don't think so. That is lacunae's body and yeah I just don't see it. Psychoshy on the other hand.

[Meleagridis]

snip

You sure see Psalm as being much more calm and stable than I do. But think of it this way: one way or another, Psalm is now an agent in the story. She can go one of two ways: kill herself out of guilt or not. We've already seen that her attempts at self-destruction fall more on the Deus and Blackjack side of things, so I really doubt she'll just lay down and die. She'll be drawn to something. If she does not have Lac's memories, she will inevitably either come back to the Hoof, keep killing Partypooper targets until she follows Blackjack back to the Hoof, or start looking for answers and explanations... which will draw her back to the Hoof.

Once there, all manner of bad things can pull that cold and ruthless killing machine back out again.

She could meet Cognitum and get an upgrade from a twisted and warped version of Luna. Who better for a twisted and warped version of the faithful? She could uncover more of Goldenblood's plans, and come to the conclusion that Partypooper was actually the right thing to do... or at least, the lesser evil. At least it might seem so with the information she's given. But honestly I don't think it even needs to get so far. Psalm was really far gone. Really far gone. I honestly don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that she would just start blindly following the list of targets again rather than face up to reality. She won't have words for Blackjack, I don't think. If anything, she would outright avoid or concisely kill Blackjack just so that she couldn't be swayed from this lunatic cause. Because BJ could probably do it, she was in Psalm's head after all. If Psalm remembers this, and if she's as damaged as I believe, it just makes Blackjack a priority target.

Or Psalm could be fine. Or too crazy to travel. But honestly... I know I shouldn't base my theories on the potential for suffering it causes the characters, but I can't think of getting much more cursed than Twist having to fight her old squadmate, probably to the death.

[SilentCarto]

So "memories" are, all at once, recorded snippets of life, experience in crafts, knowledge of subjects, facts learned or recorded, wisdom of lifetime and copies of personalities?
Certainly are dynamic liitle buggers. I get more and more confused where memory ends and soul begins.

I don't understand your confusion. Skills aren't inextricably linked to the specific memories of obtaining those skills. I mean, can you remember every time you learned anything about using a computer? Every event that shaped your ability to drive? Of course not. Your skills are a set of reflexes, heuristics, and problem solutions that have built up from layer after layer of experience.

BJ didn't get stuffed with memories of being a sniper. She just had the skill downloaded into her, divorced from specific events. Like in the Matrix -- "I know kung fu." The only time she started digging around in specific memories was when she was searching for information that had been stowed in Lacunae.

[Icy Shake]

Another memory/skill possibility I thought of today basically had to do with bandwidth. Supposing there's a former PipBuck technician even remotely nearby, it could be less costly on the system to have the body move and take the skill with it than to upload and download the skills through telepathy. That could especially be the case if the system was under a heavy load at the time, or there were other complicating factors, like Enervation in Hoofington or the Pink Fog in Canterlot, or if it's much easier to transfer small than large batches (several years' experience with PipBucks, complete with all the idle thoughts and connections made along the way, and the database of educational and other context leading up to it vs. a couple month's time).

I guess I just think of it as an extension of or analogy to the fact that sometimes you still get the best bandwidth through a station wagon full of magnetic tape.

[Guest]

So I guess this is kinda tasteless but during Lacunae's death scene I actually laughed a couple times. The thought "I have to go. My people need me." got stuck in my head.

[Somber]

Magic?

 EDIT: BTW, I really wanted to thank everypony that replied.  The thing with headless Rampage was me trying for a moment of grim humor.  Honestly, I was terrified people would think I was making fun of what happened to Steelhooves.  I was rereading the chapter after we finished and went 'OMG, people are going to kill me for making fun of Steelhooves' death!  I'm a horrible person!'  The three big things I wanted was Lacunae putting her hoof down and finally gaining her independence, the goddess' redemption, and then Lacunae's sacrifice.  I think all three of them went well.  I want to tweak the third but... ::Twitchy Twitch:: Originally I wanted Twilight to have a chat with Blackjack before flying off for Pip... but it wouldn't have been fair.  in FoE, the twilicorn was mute.  It would have been wrong for her to chat up BJ but say nothing to LP.

Currently, I'm wrestling with a dilemma.  Part of me wants BJ to reach Thunderhead.  It will really give me a chance to show off Glory, explore a little with P-21 and Rampage, and get a little zebra involved as well.  However, another part of me wants to short cut to shadowbolt tower.  I'm not sure which would be better...  If I did go to Thunderhead, it would likely become a three parter.  Otherwise, I could just hurry things up and maybe get it done in one and a half.  Thoughts?

[WavemasterRyx]

BTW, I really wanted to thank everypony that replied.  The thing with headless Rampage was me trying for a moment of grim humor.  Honestly, I was terrified people would think I was making fun of what happened to Steelhooves.  I was rereading the chapter after we finished and went 'OMG, people are going to kill me for making fun of Steelhooves' death!  I'm a horrible person!'  The three big things I wanted was Lacunae putting her hoof down and finally gaining her independence, the goddess' redemption, and then Lacunae's sacrifice.  I think all three of them went well.  I want to tweak the third but... ::Twitchy Twitch:: Originally I wanted Twilight to have a chat with Blackjack before flying off for Pip... but it wouldn't have been fair.  in FoE, the twilicorn was mute.  It would have been wrong for her to chat up BJ but say nothing to LP.

Currently, I'm wrestling with a dilemma.  Part of me wants BJ to reach Thunderhead.  It will really give me a chance to show off Glory, explore a little with P-21 and Rampage, and get a little zebra involved as well.  However, another part of me wants to short cut to shadowbolt tower.  I'm not sure which would be better...  If I did go to Thunderhead, it would likely become a three parter.  Otherwise, I could just hurry things up and maybe get it done in one and a half.  Thoughts?

Well, sir, since SteelHooves is one of my favorite characters from FoE, I can speak with relative authority to the fact that I don't think it came across as an insult to him. I may not have been able to laugh at the situation, but I could definitely see the humor you intended for it, and I don't think you were wrong for trying to bring some humor into it.
As I said in my commentary, I do think you achieved the things you wanted out of the chapter, and it was a good chapter.

As for your dilemma... I really don't think you should try to rush anything. Letting them go to Thunderhead and giving your characters more of a chance to interact and grow is one of the things that makes Project Horizons what it is. I'm sure some people can say it better, and plenty will tell you to cut it short in any way possible... but I think you should only cut straight to Shadowbolt Tower if you're absolutely certain, and if you wouldn't regret the story missing what would have happened at Thunderhead.

[Moodyman90]

Well I'm certainly not oppose to more character interactions. Especially for Glory, P-21 and Rampage. Yeah Project Horizons is crazy long now, but in the same token it's so huge would it honestly even matter if you tried shortening  it?

I guess it would to some people but I say let it grow. This is a labor of love and while not every idea works out at times , the infamous first version of the Legate fight, it's not like you're padding the story out because you're getting paid for every word.
War and Peace is always used as a comparison of books of great length, but that book is padded out like hell. At least Project Horizon has content to it's length.

[Icy Shake]

Currently, I'm wrestling with a dilemma.  Part of me wants BJ to reach Thunderhead.  It will really give me a chance to show off Glory, explore a little with P-21 and Rampage, and get a little zebra involved as well.  However, another part of me wants to short cut to shadowbolt tower.  I'm not sure which would be better...  If I did go to Thunderhead, it would likely become a three parter.  Otherwise, I could just hurry things up and maybe get it done in one and a half.  Thoughts?

One of my criticisms of PH is that it's too short. I want it to go on forever and ever amen.

Beyond this, of course, I tend to eat up focus on the other members of the cast, and there's been so much plot going on lately that I feel like we've hardly had decompression time with Glory from her mother's appearance. I'd say you should go for it.

[SilentCarto]

Currently, I'm wrestling with a dilemma.  Part of me wants BJ to reach Thunderhead.  It will really give me a chance to show off Glory, explore a little with P-21 and Rampage, and get a little zebra involved as well.  However, another part of me wants to short cut to shadowbolt tower.  I'm not sure which would be better...  If I did go to Thunderhead, it would likely become a three parter.  Otherwise, I could just hurry things up and maybe get it done in one and a half.  Thoughts?

Don't cut it short.
1) This is Glory's moment to shine, and she deserves to get to make the most of it.
2) You've been building up the tensions with Thunderhead since chapter 4. It would be a real shame not to have that pay off.
3) Since when have I ever advised you to cut anything short?
4) ???
5) Profit!

[SilentCarto]

I think that PH (and FOE in general, I guess...) has its own specialized version of "All Myths Are True". If a unique weapon is rumored, mentioned, or seen in a memory, it must be obtained during the course of the story.

On that note,

“But... how... who...I...” I muttered weakly. P-21 and Glory looked away from everything, especially each other, as the former wiped his face and the latter checked Pew Pew. “How did you know where I was?”

"Pew-Pew" was hyphenated in the last chapter.

[RoboRed]

I vote Thunderhead, mostly because I've been wanting the group to go skyward again for a while now.

[SilentCarto]

Sorry for going a little out of order here -- I'd skipped a few comment posts and now I'm catching up.

What would Twilight have ended up as if she hadn’t accepted Luna’s offer?  Wizard?  Princess?  Wife?

Damn it. That's just distracting, and in context largely unfounded.

Remember that there are subordinate princes floating around. She doesn't have to get alicornicated in order to, say, marry royalty or get adopted by Celestia or Luna.

[Derpmind]

Currently, I'm wrestling with a dilemma.  Part of me wants BJ to reach Thunderhead.  It will really give me a chance to show off Glory, explore a little with P-21 and Rampage, and get a little zebra involved as well.  However, another part of me wants to short cut to shadowbolt tower.  I'm not sure which would be better...  If I did go to Thunderhead, it would likely become a three parter.  Otherwise, I could just hurry things up and maybe get it done in one and a half.  Thoughts?

What Would 4Chan Say? Somber, you could write an entire chapter around some little scene like a dinner or a card game and it would still be amazing. Besides, could you really say no to Morning Glory?

War and Peace is always used as a comparison of books of great length, but that book is padded out like hell. At least Project Horizon has content to it's length.

This is my personal bias talking: Project Horizons has been better than War and Peace for a long time now.

[Vergil]

Magic?

 EDIT: BTW, I really wanted to thank everypony that replied.  The thing with headless Rampage was me trying for a moment of grim humor.  Honestly, I was terrified people would think I was making fun of what happened to Steelhooves.  I was rereading the chapter after we finished and went 'OMG, people are going to kill me for making fun of Steelhooves' death!  I'm a horrible person!'  The three big things I wanted was Lacunae putting her hoof down and finally gaining her independence, the goddess' redemption, and then Lacunae's sacrifice.  I think all three of them went well.  I want to tweak the third but... ::Twitchy Twitch:: Originally I wanted Twilight to have a chat with Blackjack before flying off for Pip... but it wouldn't have been fair.  in FoE, the twilicorn was mute.  It would have been wrong for her to chat up BJ but say nothing to LP.

Currently, I'm wrestling with a dilemma.  Part of me wants BJ to reach Thunderhead.  It will really give me a chance to show off Glory, explore a little with P-21 and Rampage, and get a little zebra involved as well.  However, another part of me wants to short cut to shadowbolt tower.  I'm not sure which would be better...  If I did go to Thunderhead, it would likely become a three parter.  Otherwise, I could just hurry things up and maybe get it done in one and a half.  Thoughts?

In all fairness Pip wasn't the descendent of Twi's forgotten child, though. But the way you went with it is fair all around.

As for where to go? Always Take the Long Way Home.

[Downloaded Skill]

@Somber

The way I look at it if you don't go to Thunderhead you're missing a huge opportunity. You've given more focus on the Enclave in your story and if BJ and crew could justifiably go to Thunderhead it could prove very interesting. You have wastelanders interacting with the Enclave in a non-hostile way as well as Glory, who has Enclave ideals tempered with Wasteland experience. This could be a very interesting social dynamic since Glory's experiences could provoke social friction in Thunderhead and the Enclave as a whole. It would provide more political intrigue like the Society, but with more far reaching consequences. This also would allow you to flesh out the Enclave more. The Goddess was given more complexity, why not the Enclave? There's also the limitless amount of things you could do with Glory in this location. The potential for development is off the charts.

 This has been built up early and, while I know you're concerned about length, people have been eating up what you've been writing for a long time. Don't cheapen what you want to do to cater to other people's tastes. You simply can't please everyone. This is your work and I have absolute faith in you that, whatever you do, it'll be awesome.

[Katarn]

I think you should show Thunderhead and not rush. I'm looking forward to what you've planned for Glory, P-21 and Rampage and BJ, ofc.
And 'zebra involvement'..are you talking about Lancer?

[Guest]

Cat just jumped out of my lap, thank goodness. Anyway, I vote Thunderhead, if only so I can break out the AC/DC again. But, really, for all the reasons everyone else has said. If you think you've got story to tell that lets Glory and other side characters shine in Thunderhead, I'm all for it.

[Sponsored content]