Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Guest]

I think having the brain destroyed and the head removed are a bit different. Maybe it's something the talisman has built in, to save energy? It doesn't regenerate what can be recovered?

I don't know. With all Alicorn control stuff I'm willing to except that the Phoenix talisman can remotely recieve brain signals to operate the body.

Or maybe it's simpler than that and her body's continuing to spasm in the only way rampage knows how.

That wouldn't explain why the head wasn't regenerated. Looked like it took longer than usual if that's the case.

[Guest]

Right now I'm in extreme pain from a bad tooth.  Take everything I say with that in mind.

Ouch. :(

@Downloaded
I figured it was something about brain destruction rather than separation of the spinal cord from the rest of the body, but I dunno. Magic! I am worse at reasoning out explanation for things the closer to "because souls" the explanation becomes. =P Reminded me of an old story I heard about Lief Erikson (no idea how to spell that). He and his men got captured, right, and they were getting executed one by one. So, in the line, because they're vikings, two of Erikson's men are speculating on how long you get to survive after your head's off. One guy bets the other that he'll still be alive for a bit afterwards. So, the guy gets his head chopped off, and then, as the executioner moves on to his pal, the headless body sort of swings around and trips him. And then all the prisoners jump him, get the sword, and kill everyone, or something. I heard it like 15 years ago; the details are foggy.

[Downloaded Skill]

Well the thing is spine severing and brain destruction wouldn't make a difference from a functional standpoint. If the spine is severed there is no pathway for the brain to send commands. If the brain is destroyed it can't send commands. Either way it would be impossible for the body to move beyond twitches and death throes that normally result when someone dies. What Rampage did after she died was more sophisticated than that.

[Somber]

There's another explaination:  Botched writing trying for humor.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well, I've kind of always assumed there was some amount of "cartoon physic" in the setting (FoE at large) -I think it's that thing Mel' and Hinds were calling "narrative causality" in that other thread ?-, so I'd chalk that one up on that. Some times weird things just happen that don't really make sense => (in)famous example : Pinkie Sense.

Anyway => "tried for humor" : it was successful as far as I'm concerned. I sort of imagined the "oh fuck" face of the guy she slammed.

[Downloaded Skill]

The scene was humorous, but it didn't make sense considering what was established about how Rampage dies and reincarnates. Its just a consistency issue. I don't mean to insult your work. I love it very much which is why I'm voicing my thoughts on the matter in a, hopefully, respectful manner.

[hawkeye92]

I really liked the latest chapter. To be fair it is something I've been waiting for for a long time.

Spoiler:

[Guest]

Well the thing is spine severing and brain destruction wouldn't make a difference from a functional standpoint. If the spine is severed there is no pathway for the brain to send commands. If the brain is destroyed it can't send commands. Either way it would be impossible for the body to move beyond twitches and death throes that normally result when someone dies. What Rampage did after she died was more sophisticated than that.

I am going to regret even thinking about this, but let me tell you about... CARTESIAN DUALISM. DUN DUN DUN. As much as I remember about it, anyway, considering I've done my best to forget it 'cos it's batpony poop crazy.

Now, I'm not saying that the world of PH operates according to it, but we do know that it has some kind of dualism-type deal  going on. Y'know, souls + bodies. Somber's stated some stuff that makes it sounds significantly more complicated (soul != mind, for instance) but also frankly more realistic than Descartes' version; still, the basic concept should work. Anyway.

There are two things that make up a person: the body, and the soul. They don't really interact much, since they are on different planes of existence. Ooh, magical! But then there are these animal spirits (as in animated, rather than as in kitties, AFAIK), right, that can walk between the two planes (if you wanna get quantum, they're in a state of constantly being both soulstuff and materialstuff, until they need to be one or the other, and then they're back uncertain. I just made that up.), and which link our bodies to our souls, transmitting information (or something) from our soul to our body, so that when we wanna walk and stuff, we can. My brain hurts.

Anyway 2.0! One assumes that death occurs when the animal spirits no longer have access to the body correctly. IIRC it's the pituitary gland that filters them in, according to Descartes? I dunno, doesn't matter. Point is, maybe the nature of these animal spirits is changed by the talisman inside Rampage, so that they never lose access to the body. If the brain-bit that comptrols them is temporarily destroyed, they don't work right anymore until its fixed, but if it's still intact, they still can flow into the bodyparts as necessary. God, this is needlessly complex. I need coffee.

Anyway, that's an explanation. Not necessarily a good one (in fact, almost certainly not a good one) but... it exists! For the record, I think that Descartes' attempts to explain how his theory of souls and bodies actually works is maybe the single best argument for not explaining the mechanics of magic in fiction. =P

[Katarn]

"Facts and figures I recite with ease.  The square root of five hundred and forty-six is twenty-three point three six six six four two eight nine one zero nine."

To be honest, I was thinking more closer to this:
"The square root of 906.01 is..."
"... 30.1."

where it comes from.:

[StoneSlinger88]

From what we've seen earlier on when Rampage had her head slashed off by Blueblood, was that it takes a little while to grow back. Putting the head back on the body may have just sped up the healing process.

[Downloaded Skill]

Well the current problem right now is that Rampage was moving around and taking complex actions.  Putting the head back on her shoulders could very well speed up the healing process, but she would still be immobile in the mean time. Rampage was a corpse after she was decapitated in that scene right?

[Evilgidgit]

A very good and emotional chapter, Somber. Top marks.

Spoiler:

[Somber]

A very good and emotional chapter, Somber. Top marks.

Spoiler:

 Nope.  She never got dipped.  Now she never will.

And that's a very good idea.  :D

From what we've seen earlier on when Rampage had her head slashed off by Blueblood, was that it takes a little while to grow back. Putting the head back on the body may have just sped up the healing process.

Also, when her head was cut off, it kept trotting.  Rampage's mind and primary sensory organs are in her brain, but her soul is in her body.

[thatguyvex]

Alright, just finished with the chapter, time to put in my two-caps.

Spoilerific Commentary:

[Guest]

BJ... With dart guns? Would she ever get a kill again? Might be better for her well being if she never knew such a thing existed.

[Harmony Ltd.]

"Captain Boo" : as with every time boo is involved and does something cute, I dunno why but the first thing that cross my mind is ""Hey Wave', this is your cue, Somber set you up for this !".  

[Derpmind]

Spoiler:

And that's a very good idea.  :D

Ugh. I know there's been lots of discussion about using Boo for this or that, but to be honest I think it's all stupid. 'Using' Boo is ignoring how Boo owns her own body. And saying that Boo somehow doesn't have a soul or a mind is contradicting everything we've seen from her. I'm not going to get angry about it, but I've always strongly disagreed with everyone advocating these ideas. It's just not being nice to Boo. I know lots of us think of her as more a pet than a pony, but she's not an animal. She communicates non-verbally and has been given a pet-like name, but she's been shown to have a thinking mind. And even if you think she's more animal than pony, filling her with another soul is always based on the assumption that there's nothing to kill in the first place.

Spoilerific Commentary:

Spoiler:

[Guest]

@Boo
Well, I mean, it's not exactly what you'd call unprecedented in this story to put multiple souls in one body. =P

[Derpmind]

@Boo
Well, I mean, it's not exactly what you'd call unprecedented in this story to put multiple souls in one body. =P

Right. That. Yeah.

perfect counterargument:

[Harmony Ltd.]

A colorless creature ? Was that a thing before the 10th Edition ?

[Frost]

If it's colorless, it should be an Artifact Creature (Yay, I get to contribute something to this thread instead of lurking!)

[Guest]

@Derp
I mean in fairness it could still be a really bad idea, ethically! I mean, I feel like Boo would be okay with it - might even be good for her to share the space with somepony who could communicate directly to her exactly what's going on, though she seems to get on fine as it is - but it would still raise some interesting ethical questions viz: consent and stuff. I mean, it's like donating part of your liver, in a way, except way more so.

[Valikdu]

I have probably missed this in the chapter...
I'm going to read it again later (I liked it), but I have a question: where did Psalm's soul go if not to the original body?

[Harmony Ltd.]

@Derp
I mean in fairness it could still be a really bad idea, ethically! I mean, I feel like Boo would be okay with it - might even be good for her to share the space with somepony who could communicate directly to her exactly what's going on, though she seems to get on fine as it is - but it would still raise some interesting ethical questions viz: consent and stuff. I mean, it's like donating part of your liver, in a way, except way more so.

Two words :

Body Colonialism

I'll let you think a bit about that one.

[Guest]

@Derp
I mean in fairness it could still be a really bad idea, ethically! I mean, I feel like Boo would be okay with it - might even be good for her to share the space with somepony who could communicate directly to her exactly what's going on, though she seems to get on fine as it is - but it would still raise some interesting ethical questions viz: consent and stuff. I mean, it's like donating part of your liver, in a way, except way more so.

Two words :

Body Colonialism

I'll let you think a bit about that one.

(Credit to MisterMech for the original)

[O. Hinds]

That said, I didn't like this chapter. It rubbed me the wrong way too many times, despite the quality writing for most of the rest of it.

Edit: Oh, and no commentary, this time.

Sorry that you didn't like it.  There was that one chapter of MN7 that I ended up mostly skimming, though, so I think I know the feeling.
Oh, though it did occur to me, regarding your complaint about the time estimate: perhaps it sounds like a computer because it is a computer?  With so much of Blackjack's mind stripped away, maybe her onboard systems are picking up slack.  Just an idea; I don't know if it's at all correct.

I'll try to write my actual commentary later, once I've stopped crying, so it may be a few days, sorry, Somber. It was a very well done chapter though, I don't care what anyone else says.

For now though, I think I can sum up all my thoughts on the chapter with this.

Spoiler:

Yes, I saw that on your tumblr and thought that that was probably what it was for; I think that it does its job quite well.  Good luck with the crying (hopefully you don't wear glasses; I do, so whenever my eyes water too much I have a choice between disabling my vision for a bit or getting saltwater stains on the lenses).


@swicked:
Ah, thank you for the error spotting.

Right now I'm in extreme pain from a bad tooth.  Take everything I say with that in mind.

Oh dear, it's gotten worse?  Good luck.

Well the thing is spine severing and brain destruction wouldn't make a difference from a functional standpoint. If the spine is severed there is no pathway for the brain to send commands. If the brain is destroyed it can't send commands. Either way it would be impossible for the body to move beyond twitches and death throes that normally result when someone dies. What Rampage did after she died was more sophisticated than that.

Through purely physical channels, yes, but we already know that there's a lot of magic, particularly soul magic, involved with Rampage.

The scene was humorous, but it didn't make sense considering what was established about how Rampage dies and reincarnates. Its just a consistency issue. I don't mean to insult your work. I love it very much which is why I'm voicing my thoughts on the matter in a, hopefully, respectful manner.

If we postulate an immaterial connection, I believe that we may come to a system in which the displayed behavior would be possible until the brain in the severed head died, and it seems to be that there could be time for the described events before that happened.


@Overlong Analysis Cobalt:
Philosophy, yay!

[Harmony Ltd.]

@ OAC : Hah. Well, at least I hope you got my point, from an ethical standpoint at least.

[Icy Shake]

Running Thoughts:

Editing:

Overall Thoughts:

Overall, I liked it very much. I hope that it doesn't turn into a huge to-do like some recent chapters have. And may I take the end-note to mean that you do have work for the coming school year? If so, congratulations!--I'm very happy to hear that.

. . . And now to check out the comments since last night.

[Guest]

@ OAC : Hah. Well, at least I hope you got my point, from an ethical standpoint at least.

Eeyup. "Oh, we know better than you do what's good for you, let us come in and do everything for you. Never mind that we're the beneficiaries from this arrangement; you weren't doing anything with the resources we're taking, anyway." The noble savage Boo (or, just as often, the "childlike and innocent" native), being civilized by the custodial Alicorn soul and made into a proper citizen of the Equestrian Empire - upon which Celestia's glorious sun never sets! I don't think the analogy is completely apropos, mind you, but it's definitely there, and it's definitely a bucket full of worms with nasty sharp teeth and bad intentions (hence the headsplosion on my part). 'Tis a complex issue, to be sure, pretty much any way you look at it, apart from how Boo might well see it. "I can keep a friend alive by giving them a space in my head to live in; how is this even a hard choice?"

Of course, you can't really ask her about stuff like this; Blackjack et al. don't have access to her tumblr, for one thing. And, again, even if you could, that brings up the question of whether or not she's truly capable of making such a decision for herself - you wouldn't let a child do something like this, and they at least can talk. At the same time, this brings us back the colonialism-style issue of knowing what's best for someone, never mind what they might think. And of course, sometime's that's just the case - you don't let a kid try to fly out a third-story window, no matter how convinced said kid is that the towel-cape they made will give them superpowers.

Yup. A bucket of worms wrapped in thorns, that's what this issue is. Makes me wanna see it happen, in a way. Sci-fi's supposed to tackle stuff like this, after all. Dunno if it'd be good for the story or characters or anything, but it'd be cool.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well, I think it already got kind of tackled on when Blackjack unilaterally decided to erase part of Scotch Tape's memories, and the aftermaths of that decision.

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