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[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

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Post by Guest Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:44 am

Good luck, dude! I hope the job and the move go smoothly.

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Post by O. Hinds Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:43 am

Somber wrote:My headcanon for Celestia and Luna are that during the age of Discord, Unicorns, Pegasi, and Earth ponies didn't like each other.  Celestia was born a unicorn, and Luna a Pegasus, and they learned to overcome their differences and were the first to discover the elements of Harmony.  I also headcanon Celestia having an older sister who was an Earth Pony before she became a princess, but disliked how Celestia treated Luna and broke up with her sister after Nightmare Moon was banished.
In the show, you mean? That makes sense.

Somber wrote:Tomorrow I move for good, and Tuesday I find out if I get my job.  Packing and moving in a pain in the ass...
Good luck!
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Post by Valikdu Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:23 am

stringtheory wrote:
cb5 wrote:I like the theory of magic being a type of radiation cause there was this really good fanfic that I can't remember the name of right now where they had some super advanced technology, but made you feel as though it was believeable in a magical world.  Like they had personal teleporters, cars, planes, shields and stuff that worked without unicorns by converting electricity into magic or magic into electricity and it was really good cause they were like, "by using electricity gemstones we can convert between magic and electricity like a transformer".
Well there's Outside the Reaching Sky which is soft sci-fi and has a magitech Equestria make its first interstellar journey while all the other races apparently run of regular technology.
I can vouch for Outside... being good. As with the other ones by that author.
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Post by Scienza Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:02 pm

Somber wrote:Tomorrow I move for good, and Tuesday I find out if I get my job.  Packing and moving in a pain in the ass...
I feel your pain, as I moved a few months ago. Good luck, you beautiful madman.
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Post by cb5 Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:47 pm

Scienza wrote:
Somber wrote:Tomorrow I move for good, and Tuesday I find out if I get my job.  Packing and moving in a pain in the ass...
I feel your pain, as I moved a few months ago. Good luck, you beautiful madman.
I've had to move at least 70 times in my life. If I lived near somber I have moved or helped other people move so much that if I threw stuff that needs to be moved into the air it would magically land in the moving truck pre-packed with tape and facing the right way and fragile objects would have packing peanuts apparate around them :V
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Post by Scienza Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:52 pm

SomberMy headcanon for Celestia and Luna are that during the age of Discord, Unicorns, Pegasi, and Earth ponies didn't like each other.  Celestia was born a unicorn, and Luna a Pegasus, and they learned to overcome their differences and were the first to discover the elements of Harmony.  I also headcanon Celestia having an older sister who was an Earth Pony before she became a princess, but disliked how Celestia treated Luna and broke up with her sister after Nightmare Moon was banished.
I personally believe that there were four other Element-bearers who either chose not to become immortal or died in the battles between Nightmare Moon and Celestia. One was the previously mentioned relative of Celestia/Luna who produced Blueblood's line. I see Celestia as being the element of Laughter and Luna being that of magic.


cb5 wrote:
Scienza wrote:
Somber wrote:Tomorrow I move for good, and Tuesday I find out if I get my job.  Packing and moving in a pain in the ass...
I feel your pain, as I moved a few months ago. Good luck, you beautiful madman.
I've had to move at least 70 times in my life.  If I lived near somber I have moved or helped other people move so much that if I threw stuff that needs to be moved into the air it would magically land in the moving truck pre-packed with tape and facing the right way and fragile objects would have packing peanuts apparate around them :V
Ouch. Normally, all my cheap-ass furniture just breaks when I try to pack it.
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Post by nebulous Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:56 pm

I wonder how the Calamity is handled in Wastelander? Could be surface-born, but it would be oh so tempting to have a character from the Enclave to be a fish out of water. So maybe,

Calamity expy: Ah'right, ya have ta take this slow. This is a tricky maneuver, and a few ensigns have gotten their wings jammed tryin' and fell clear to the surface.
Cocky ensign: Hey, don't ruffle your feathers, I've got this covered!
*one saving of Cocky Ensign's life and a long fall later...*
(Calamity expy crash-lands into a pile of pegasus skeletons, hyperventilates as the surface's toxins and radiation attack his system, and passes out)
(Fade in from black)
CE: Wha... what happened?
Velvet Remedy expy: Well, featherbrain, you took a nasty fall, got sick, and despite having no immunities to surface diseases you managed to pull through. I'd have given it a one in ten million chance.
CE: But that's--that's more than the population o' the whole Enclave!
Deep, sexy voice from offscreen: So I guess you could say that...
(P-21 expy enters stage right, generating bishie sparkles like they're going out of style)
P-21 expy: ...you're a miracle.
(Calamity expy has a nosebleed.)

Though that still wouldn't explain Glory. Could have one of them be surface-born, I suppose. And the Wasteland would be little points of semi-functional society lost in a sea of raiderghoulmutants, with all the ponies who still have their equinity glad that at least the pegasi could live on like they did in the old days, and holding nothing against them since, after all, going to the surface for a pegasus would mean nearly instant death. No one ever mentions biohazard suits or anything of the kind.

Editing:


Last edited by nebulous on Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Icy Shake Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:19 pm

Good luck with the move, Somber! And I hope the job works out.

Well, chapter twenty five was pretty big. I'd say the most important points were the reactions from Glory and P-21, but the introduction of the Reapers and some world building helped flesh it out, along with the goodbye from Gorgon. Sanguine doesn't come across as too interesting (looks cool, though), but Psychoshy is, of course, glorious, a ludicrously charismatic antagonist for all that she's an abrasive, unlikeable bitch. Not too much else to say, but Big Daddy's pretty cool, more for his philosophy, role, and prophesy than just as a snarky old badass, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Oh, and Blackjack's apparently eaten paste. Before becoming a cyberpony. Though I suppose that's not a huge surprise.

Chapter Twenty Five Running Thoughts:
Chapter Twenty Five (Mostly) Editing:
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Post by O. Hinds Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:14 pm

nebulous wrote:I wonder how the Calamity is handled in Wastelander? Could be surface-born, but it would be oh so tempting to have a character from the Enclave to be a fish out of water. So maybe,

Calamity expy: Ah'right, ya have ta take this slow. This is a tricky maneuver, and a few ensigns have gotten their wings jammed tryin' and fell clear to the surface.
Cocky ensign: Hey, don't ruffle your feathers, I've got this covered!
*one saving of Cocky Ensign's life and a long fall later...*
(Calamity expy crash-lands into a pile of pegasus skeletons, hyperventilates as the surface's toxins and radiation attack his system, and passes out)
(Fade in from black)
CE: Wha... what happened?
Velvet Remedy expy: Well, featherbrain, you took a nasty fall, got sick, and despite having no immunities to surface diseases you managed to pull through. I'd have given it a one in ten million chance.
CE: But that's--that's more than the population o' the whole Enclave!
Deep, sexy voice from offscreen: So I guess you could say that...
(P-21 expy enters stage right, generating bishie sparkles like they're going out of style)
P-21 expy: ...you're a miracle.
(Calamity expy has a nosebleed.)

Though that still wouldn't explain Glory. Could have one of them be surface-born, I suppose. And the Wasteland would be little points of semi-functional society lost in a sea of raiderghoulmutants, with all the ponies who still have their equinity glad that at least the pegasi could live on like they did in the old days, and holding nothing against them since, after all, going to the surface for a pegasus would mean nearly instant death. No one ever mentions biohazard suits or anything of the kind.

Editing:
Interesting ideas.

Ah, thank you. I believe that you are working from an out-of-date version of Chapter Sixty, though.

nebulous wrote:Also, shouldn't that be until you are at the peak of your destiny?
No, because she isn't at the moment.

Icy Shake wrote:Good luck with the move, Somber! And I hope the job works out.

Well, chapter twenty five was pretty big. I'd say the most important points were the reactions from Glory and P-21, but the introduction of the Reapers and some world building helped flesh it out, along with the goodbye from Gorgon. Sanguine doesn't come across as too interesting (looks cool, though), but Psychoshy is, of course, glorious, a ludicrously charismatic antagonist for all that she's an abrasive, unlikeable bitch. Not too much else to say, but Big Daddy's pretty cool, more for his philosophy, role, and prophesy than just as a snarky old badass, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Oh, and Blackjack's apparently eaten paste. Before becoming a cyberpony. Though I suppose that's not a huge surprise.

Chapter Twenty Five Running Thoughts:
Chapter Twenty Five (Mostly) Editing:
Ah, thank you very much as always.

Icy Shake wrote:"Witch doctor" is two words.
Hm, as far as I can tell, it being one word also appears to be a valid usage.
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Post by SilentCarto Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:21 pm

Scienza wrote:Though, as with all things alicorny, Cadance ruins everything again, since she's visibly seen aging...
Not necessarily. "Immortal" doesn't automatically mean they stop aging immediately and remain a teenager forever. The growth from child to adult and the onset of senescence are two entirely different, disconnected biological processes, not the sweep of a needle around the same clock face.

Anyway, if Celestia and Luna started out as regular unicorns, that implies that they grew into their current stature over time. Luna herself recovered several inches between S1E2 and S2E4. So it's not unthinkable that Cadence grew a few inches in the years since Twilight's childhood as a function of her increasing powers.

swicked wrote:...weren't they called unicorns in that first storybook portion of the show's pilot?
No. It said that the elder sister used her "unicorn powers" to raise the sun at dawn, yadda yadda. They were just establishing that magic is a unicorn thing. It doesn't imply that she doesn't also have pegasus powers and earth pony powers.

Scienza wrote:I see Celestia as being the element of Laughter and Luna being that of magic.
That's my headcanon. I tend to give Celestia the "softer", more social elements of Laughter, Generosity, and Kindness, while Luna had the more abrasive, personal elements of Loyalty, Honesty, and Magic.
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Post by cb5 Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:21 am

SilentCarto wrote:
Scienza wrote:Though, as with all things alicorny, Cadance ruins everything again, since she's visibly seen aging...
Not necessarily. "Immortal" doesn't automatically mean they stop aging immediately and remain a teenager forever. The growth from child to adult and the onset of senescence are two entirely different, disconnected biological processes, not the sweep of a needle around the same clock face.

Anyway, if Celestia and Luna started out as regular unicorns, that implies that they grew into their current stature over time. Luna herself recovered several inches between S1E2 and S2E4. So it's not unthinkable that Cadence grew a few inches in the years since Twilight's childhood as a function of her increasing powers.
Nah canon ruins fanon everything.  Celestia, Luna, Cadance, Twilight aren't immortal and it's not canon that they're immortal.  Alicorns are just long living.  Alicorns being immortal was a fanon thing that people for the longest time thought was canon, but got shot down by word of faust herself.

The FoE subniche of the mlp fandom is the only one that I know of that gives a care about canon though.  I just write it off as a "parallel universe" and call it done.
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Post by Icy Shake Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:38 am

On "witchdoctor": okay; I guess I missed that. In any case, there's an instance of "witch doctor" as two words in chapter thirty four, so you might as well harmonize them, one way or the other.

And cb5, I'm surprised you'd think that or that people would have that reaction. I thought it was hopelessly broken from show-continuity by the end of the second season, and on reflection even before. Sure, there are ways to incorporate the changes, but as they pile up, it seems like it makes more sense to just pick and choose what you think works.


Also got through twenty six tonight (split up, though, by the Karaoke Night, which was a ton of fun), but for whatever reason I don't have as much to say about it. There's plenty going on, and in the beginning to middle there are even the more slow-moving emotional and relationship parts that get me talking. The P-21/Priest stuff is solid, though I can't help but think that what Priest said about being unable to refuse Arloste because she was broken and inconsolable (and older and more powerful, true), similarly applies to P-21, though I guess it's undermined by the fact that Priest was the one making the move. The bed wetting was something of a highlight for me, and was key in setting up Scotch's break and arc resulting from the underground, as well as establishing the protectiveness Blackjack feels toward her, going beyond just her life to her happiness and her esteem in the eyes of her friends. It's not exactly the biggest thing, but I do think it's important we see from time to time that this Security saves more than ponies' lives. We had a scene with Octavia, which may have included new info on soul jars (though we don't know that's what she is yet) in Blackjack's feeling that holding her felt like hugging a pony. Oh! And we get the starmetal sword, which is almost like a character itself, and fun times with Lance and company.

Underground, there's great atmosphere and some great action, but the real magic is in the slow grinding down of everyone, including the reader. More than most chapters, this just exudes a feeling of inevitability. Much like the passage over Caradhras, or possibly the climb up Mount Doom, this made the simple act of walking really feel like a heroic effort, and the most important thing in the world. There were some good character scenes down there, but the nature of the plot's progression at the time required that they be resolved quickly, basically with pep-talks. But there will be more time to sort things out later.

Lastly: jelly legs. We're now fully in the long sweep of Blackjack just deteriorating physically like she had been emotionally over the last several chapters, and I'm looking forward to it continuing because I remember it just giving the whole time a real sense of hope in the face of the unstoppable enemy that is Blackjack's own body. I just hope that it doesn't lose its effectiveness when I know that there's an after.

Okay, maybe I did manage to write something down, after all.

Chapter Twenty Six Running Thoughts:
Chapter Twenty Six (Mostly) Editing:
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Post by cb5 Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:46 am

Icy Shake wrote:On "witchdoctor": okay; I guess I missed that. In any case, there's an instance of "witch doctor" as two words in chapter thirty four, so you might as well harmonize them, one way or the other.

And cb5, I'm surprised you'd think that or that people would have that reaction. I thought it was hopelessly broken from show-continuity by the end of the second season, and on reflection even before. Sure, there are ways to incorporate the changes, but as they pile up, it seems like it makes more sense to just pick and choose what you think works.
There are still people that try to retcon canon into their fics. I'm not talking like little things, I'm talking like Discord's return level things.
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Post by O. Hinds Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:34 am

Icy Shake wrote:On "witchdoctor": okay; I guess I missed that. In any case, there's an instance of "witch doctor" as two words in chapter thirty four, so you might as well harmonize them, one way or the other.
Oh, thank you.

Icy Shake wrote:Okay, maybe I did manage to write something down, after all.
Ah, thank you very much as always.

cb5 wrote:There are still people that try to retcon canon into their fics. I'm not talking like little things, I'm talking like Discord's return level things.
Seriously? …Well, I guess that their perseverance in the face of adversity is commendable...
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Post by FeatherDust Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:52 am

stringtheory wrote:>>Twilicorn
I'm in the camp of 'should've waited a couple more seasons' personally.
My understanding is that MMC was originally conceived as a show-closer because they weren't sure if they were getting a season 4.  The half-length S3 makes up the total 65 episodes necessary to take the show to syndication and there was, at some point in the process, a real question of whether there WOULD be any more.  Once they did get the green light for S4, MMC got reworked to be less of a final ending, but that's why they chose to do Twilicorn now rather than later.

Somber wrote:My headcanon for Celestia and Luna are that during the age of Discord, Unicorns, Pegasi, and Earth ponies didn't like each other.  Celestia was born a unicorn, and Luna a Pegasus, and they learned to overcome their differences and were the first to discover the elements of Harmony.  I also headcanon Celestia having an older sister who was an Earth Pony before she became a princess, but disliked how Celestia treated Luna and broke up with her sister after Nightmare Moon was banished.
Wait, so are you theorizing that Celly and Luna aren't actual siblings, or that one of them is a throwback?

cb5 wrote:Celestia, Luna, Cadance, Twilight aren't immortal and it's not canon that they're immortal.  Alicorns are just long living.  Alicorns being immortal was a fanon thing that people for the longest time thought was canon, but got shot down by word of faust herself.
You got a quote for that?  I never heard any such thing and I keep up pretty well with official statements...

Though I will say it's important to distinguish between different kinds of immortal.  There's "unharmable", like the Highlander immortals, who can't be killed except in specific ways.  Then there's "ageless" like the elves in LotR, who can live forever if left unmolested but are just as vulnerable to violent death as anyone else (disease immunity is optional).  And then there's "effectively ageless", where they do technically have a life span, but it's measured in multiple millennia and as close to ageless as makes no difference for us mayflies.

These aren't strict categories. A lot of fanfic posits that Celestia falls somewhere between unharmable and ageless -- that she isn't immune to injury, but she has some serious resistance to it. And somewhere between ageless and "effectively" you can get characters like Babylon 5's Lorien or the Mass Effect Reapers, who do seem to have some kind of life cycle, but it's so vast that they can outlive stars.
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Post by Scienza Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:57 am

cb5 wrote:Nah canon ruins fanon everything.  Celestia, Luna, Cadance, Twilight aren't immortal and it's not canon that they're immortal.  Alicorns are just long living.  Alicorns being immortal was a fanon thing that people for the longest time thought was canon, but got shot down by word of faust herself.
Really? I don't remember her saying it, but I might've missed it in one of her Q&A sessions. Can you post a link to it?

The FoE subniche of the mlp fandom is the only one that I know of that gives a care about canon though.  I just write it off as a "parallel universe" and call it done.
The problem is just that FoE isn't "hard" AU, so it exists in, if not the FiM universe proper, a very close copy of it (this is opposed to say, Mane Effect, which exists in a completely different universe than show canon), and so finding the boundaries of it is much harder. That's why FoE worked, since you could very easily see how the happy universe you loved could develop into an irradiated wasteland, but it leaves authors in a very difficult position in regards to show canon. Reworking what you've already wrote to fit new canon is one thing, that can easily break your work's internal logic, but adapting new canon can work, especially since the original was so vague about certain things. There are some things that are definite (i.e. Twilicorn), but the line is always fuzzy.
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Post by cb5 Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:39 am

FeatherDust wrote:
stringtheory wrote:>>Twilicorn
I'm in the camp of 'should've waited a couple more seasons' personally.
My understanding is that MMC was originally conceived as a show-closer because they weren't sure if they were getting a season 4.  The half-length S3 makes up the total 65 episodes necessary to take the show to syndication and there was, at some point in the process, a real question of whether there WOULD be any more.  Once they did get the green light for S4, MMC got reworked to be less of a final ending, but that's why they chose to do Twilicorn now rather than later.
Actually faust's Q&A on 4chan also stated that she originally intended from the get go for twilight to become a alicorn.  The reason why FoE isn't closely parallel to canon is faust's original idea was for twilight to become a alicorn, which Celestia never turned her into one in FoE hence FoE hasn't been canon since season 1 episode 1.
Scienza wrote:
cb5 wrote:Nah canon ruins fanon everything.  Celestia, Luna, Cadance, Twilight aren't immortal and it's not canon that they're immortal.  Alicorns are just long living.  Alicorns being immortal was a fanon thing that people for the longest time thought was canon, but got shot down by word of faust herself.
Really? I don't remember her saying it, but I might've missed it in one of her Q&A sessions. Can you post a link to it?

The FoE subniche of the mlp fandom is the only one that I know of that gives a care about canon though.  I just write it off as a "parallel universe" and call it done.
The problem is just that FoE isn't "hard" AU, so it exists in, if not the FiM universe proper, a very close copy of it (this is opposed to say, Mane Effect, which exists in a completely different universe than show canon), and so finding the boundaries of it is much harder. That's why FoE worked, since you could very easily see how the happy universe you loved could develop into an irradiated wasteland, but it leaves authors in a very difficult position in regards to show canon. Reworking what you've already wrote to fit new canon is one thing, that can easily break your work's internal logic, but adapting new canon can work, especially since the original was so vague about certain things. There are some things that are definite (i.e. Twilicorn), but the line is always fuzzy.
It was one of Faust's Q&A with fans on 4chan and ponychan.  It's on equestria daily, just use the search engine on their site and type "faust Q&A"

I would like it if people stopped giving a care about canon, cause with what we've been teased with for season 4 FoE isn't even going to be close to canon.
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Post by FeatherDust Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:40 am

cb5 wrote:
FeatherDust wrote:My understanding is that MMC was originally conceived as a show-closer because they weren't sure if they were getting a season 4... Once they did get the green light for S4, MMC got reworked to be less of a final ending, but that's why they chose to do Twilicorn now rather than later.
Actually faust's Q&A on 4chan also stated that she originally intended from the get go for twilight to become a alicorn.  The reason why FoE isn't closely parallel to canon is faust's original idea was for twilight to become a alicorn, which Celestia never turned her into one in FoE hence FoE hasn't been canon since season 1 episode 1.
Uh... I didn't claim Faust never intended alicorn. However she intended for it to happen at the end of a long story and probably be the show-closer. I'm explaining why MMC specifically wound up as the Alicornication episode, with not much setup or warning, despite not being the show-closer -- because it was originally intended to be the closer, but then they got renewed and had to shuffle a bit.

You can actually see this as a theme throughout season 3 -- there's a lot of it that feels like "tying up the loose ends", which makes sense if they had to start writing the season as if it would be the last.

Also, point of contention, Celestia didn't turn Twilight into anything. She was just present to witness the event that would have happened with or without her.

It was one of Faust's Q&A with fans on 4chan and ponychan.  It's on equestria daily, just use the search engine on their site and type "faust Q&A"
I asked for a specific quote because I'm not sure which one you're using to support this. I don't recall any of them addressing Celestia and Luna.

If it's the QA I think it is, she said Cadence isn't immortal, but that doesn't mean Celestia and Luna aren't. It only says that immortality is not an inherent part of being an alicorn. In fact, I believe she specifically said that Cadence's lifespan is only that of a normal pony (and thus she won't outlive her husband, at least by more than the usual amount, which was the question). We already know that Celestia is over a thousand years old, so there's already some kind of major difference between Celestia and Luna's nature versus Cadence and Twilight's.
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Post by cb5 Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:54 am

FeatherDust wrote:
cb5 wrote:
FeatherDust wrote:My understanding is that MMC was originally conceived as a show-closer because they weren't sure if they were getting a season 4... Once they did get the green light for S4, MMC got reworked to be less of a final ending, but that's why they chose to do Twilicorn now rather than later.
Actually faust's Q&A on 4chan also stated that she originally intended from the get go for twilight to become a alicorn.  The reason why FoE isn't closely parallel to canon is faust's original idea was for twilight to become a alicorn, which Celestia never turned her into one in FoE hence FoE hasn't been canon since season 1 episode 1.
Uh... I didn't claim Faust never intended alicorn. However she intended for it to happen at the end of a long story and probably be the show-closer.  I'm explaining why MMC specifically wound up as the Alicornication episode, with not much setup or warning, despite not being the show-closer -- because it was originally intended to be the closer, but then they got renewed and had to shuffle a bit.

You can actually see this as a theme throughout season 3 -- there's a lot of it that feels like "tying up the loose ends", which makes sense if they had to start writing the season as if it would be the last.

Also, point of contention, Celestia didn't turn Twilight into anything.  She was just present to witness the event that would have happened with or without her.

It was one of Faust's Q&A with fans on 4chan and ponychan.  It's on equestria daily, just use the search engine on their site and type "faust Q&A"
I asked for a specific quote because I'm not sure which one you're using to support this.  I don't recall any of them addressing Celestia and Luna.

If it's the QA I think it is, she said Cadence isn't immortal, but that doesn't mean Celestia and Luna aren't.  It only says that immortality is not an inherent part of being an alicorn.  In fact, I believe she specifically said that Cadence's lifespan is only that of a normal pony (and thus she won't outlive her husband, at least by more than the usual amount, which was the question).  We already know that Celestia is over a thousand years old, so there's already some kind of major difference between Celestia and Luna's nature versus Cadence and Twilight's.
http://www.equestriadaily.com/2013/05/lauren-faust-q-part-2.html
Celestia and Luna were born as alicorns.
They're not gods.
http://www.equestriadaily.com/2013/06/lauren-faust-ponychan-q-compiled.html
Twilight was supposed to replace celestia.
http://www.equestriadaily.com/2013/06/lauren-faust-ponychan-q-compiled.html
Not only unicorns can become alicorns, but pegasus and earth ponies as well.
http://www.equestriadaily.com/2013/05/lauren-fausts-twitter-questions-and.html
Celestia and luna each got 3 elements of harmony.  There were no other wielders.

Cadance wasn't supposed to be a alicorn in the first place btw, and when she was asked about that she agreed that it was a fuckup.  Also if twilight is supposed to replace celestia, and celestia is thousands of years old how can a normal long life pony replace her for thousands of years?

There's a reason why I keep saying people need to stop caring so much about canon, cause word of faust trumps FoE lore.
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Post by Guest Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:37 pm

Regarding Word of Faust, though... I'm not sure we can rely on that as canon, either. I mean, it's more canon than fanon is, not unlike the Extended Universe in Star Wars, but it's not canon always with the show, or even comics, canon, both of which are more "official."

Basically, I'm with CB5 that canon is a clusterfuck and you should only care about it inasmuch as you want to. =P

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Post by cb5 Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:42 pm

Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:Regarding Word of Faust, though... I'm not sure we can rely on that as canon, either. I mean, it's more canon than fanon is, not unlike the Extended Universe in Star Wars, but it's not canon always with the show, or even comics, canon, both of which are more "official."

Basically, I'm with CB5 that canon is a clusterfuck and you should only care about it inasmuch as you want to. =P
Personally I would not say that anywhere else on the internet. Here it's fine, but if like on EQD or such you disagreed with "word of faust" you would be lucky to not get shanked cause lauren is god tier in the fandom.
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Post by Guest Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:13 pm

@cb5
Well, I'm watching the show we have, not an alt-universe version. =P Seriously, though, I like Lauren's version, I think it would have been fantastic if her original vision had been allowed to come to fruition, but... Like she herself says, her word is not law. Not to mention that she was never the sole creative voice for the show, either; as much as we like the idea of the lone visionary hermit in the wilderness solving the answers to life, the universe, and everything, MLPFIM was not only her project, and her designs would have gone through iteration and been built on by the rest of the staff had she stayed on. Figuring out what would have actually happened had Faust still been on the show is an exercise - not in futility, perhaps, but still just an exercise. The canon you get from said exercise will only be as "trve kvlt"* (pardon my black metal speak - the metaphor is very apt, I think) as you decide it is - any headcanon that even comes close to being complete will still be fanon, once the holes are filled in, and it still won't be what the show's actual canon is; claims otherwise - of a mythical "true" canon - ring hollow. That's my initial take, anyway.

Alternate metaphor: Lauren was the Pope of the Ponies. She left, though, and others took her place. Her teachings since then may still be in line with the Cult of Ponies, but they are not official dogma the way information from the current Pope of Ponies would be. In this metaphor, FOE is a heretical offshoot. =P

*("Trve" and "kvlt" ["true" and "cult," respectively] are terms used both mockingly and in sincerity by the black metal community to describe black metal that matches the sound, style, and atmosphere of the early '90s Mayhem-era Norwegian scene, which was cut prematurely short by murder, arson, terrorism, cannibalism, suicides, hate crimes, Nazis, Communists, Satanists, and, well, black metal being black metal; nowadays, black metal has moved beyond that point, of course and thank god, and attempts to hearken back to the before-time are dismissing the two decades of history and genre advancement that took place since then. Some people will always claim that the genre was better back then [WHY], or even that anything made after that point isn't "true" black metal, but the world and the genre has moved on.)

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Post by FeatherDust Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:25 pm

cb5 wrote:
Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:Regarding Word of Faust, though... I'm not sure we can rely on that as canon, either. I mean, it's more canon than fanon is, not unlike the Extended Universe in Star Wars, but it's not canon always with the show, or even comics, canon, both of which are more "official."

Basically, I'm with CB5 that canon is a clusterfuck and you should only care about it inasmuch as you want to. =P
Personally I would not say that anywhere else on the internet.  Here it's fine, but if like on EQD or such you disagreed with "word of faust" you would be lucky to not get shanked cause lauren is god tier in the fandom.
Ok, let me be clear here.  I've been around the Star Wars fandom a long time and you are misusing the word 'canon'.

Lauren Faust is not canon.  That is not what the word means.  Canon is what happens on the screen, or in the comic book, or in whatever other published media are produced. (Generally in a hierarchy -- the show trumps the comic book, the comic trumps one-off books, etc.)

Word of Faust, Word of Wootie, or any other crew statements are useful in as far as they are statements of intent, but they are subject to change at any time by having an episode that says otherwise.  Faust herself has made this very clear; anything she says is only speaking to her original intent.  Heck, even if she'd stayed on the show, that intent may or may not have actually been in force two-plus years later.  Original intent is always subordinate to the needs of the actual show-writing process.

Word of Faust trumps nothing.  Somebody can grumble that her original idea was better than what was eventually produced, but again, needs of the show -- we can't re-rack history and see how the show would've played out if Faust had stayed on it.  The show as shown is always "the truth" regardless of what Lauren originally meant to happen.
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Post by Scienza Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:31 pm

FeatherDust wrote:
cb5 wrote:
Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:Regarding Word of Faust, though... I'm not sure we can rely on that as canon, either. I mean, it's more canon than fanon is, not unlike the Extended Universe in Star Wars, but it's not canon always with the show, or even comics, canon, both of which are more "official."

Basically, I'm with CB5 that canon is a clusterfuck and you should only care about it inasmuch as you want to. =P
Personally I would not say that anywhere else on the internet.  Here it's fine, but if like on EQD or such you disagreed with "word of faust" you would be lucky to not get shanked cause lauren is god tier in the fandom.
Ok, let me be clear here.  I've been around the Star Wars fandom a long time and you are misusing the word 'canon'.

Lauren Faust is not canon.  That is not what the word means.  Canon is what happens on the screen, or in the comic book, or in whatever other published media are produced. (Generally in a hierarchy -- the show trumps the comic book, the comic trumps one-off books, etc.)

Word of Faust, Word of Wootie, or any other crew statements are useful in as far as they are statements of intent, but they are subject to change at any time by having an episode that says otherwise.  Faust herself has made this very clear; anything she says is only speaking to her original intent.  Heck, even if she'd stayed on the show, that intent may or may not have actually been in force two-plus years later.  Original intent is always subordinate to the needs of the actual show-writing process.

Word of Faust trumps nothing.  Somebody can grumble that her original idea was better than what was eventually produced, but again, needs of the show -- we can't re-rack history and see how the show would've played out if Faust had stayed on it.  The show as shown is always "the truth" regardless of what Lauren originally meant to happen.
In effect, Lauren Faust's statements are the equivalent of Lucas saying that Greedo shot first.

Also, perhaps the Star Wars EU is the wrong thing to bring up when the new trilogy is very likely to obliterate all of it.
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Post by Moodyman90 Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:53 pm

As it currently stands, I think (thus my opinion and in no way official) MLP canon is :
-What Hasbro allows on screen

-What Hasbro allows in the comics(which can be discounted by the show)

-What the active production team says (which can, will, and has been overruled by Hasbro)

-What Lauren Faust and any other members of the production team who are no longer actively working on the show say, as long as it doesn't contradict anything from the above.

-What Fandom has come up with, that is widely accepted by the rest of the fandom, that doesn't contradict any of the above AND what Hasbro hasn't struck down.

Obviously Fallout Equestria and all of it's spin offs hasn't been canon to the show at all since the beginning. Certain events from the show can be said to have happened in the FoE universe, but obviously certain events couldn't have happened. What can fit and what can't fit is up to the author of the story. Personally I feel like Somber has done a great job incorporating bits and pieces from the show into PH as they came out, but much like the original FoE, you can tell what was written before the events of a new episode and what hasn't.
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Post by cb5 Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:56 pm

Scienza wrote:
FeatherDust wrote:
cb5 wrote:
Overlong Analysis Cobalt wrote:Regarding Word of Faust, though... I'm not sure we can rely on that as canon, either. I mean, it's more canon than fanon is, not unlike the Extended Universe in Star Wars, but it's not canon always with the show, or even comics, canon, both of which are more "official."

Basically, I'm with CB5 that canon is a clusterfuck and you should only care about it inasmuch as you want to. =P
Personally I would not say that anywhere else on the internet.  Here it's fine, but if like on EQD or such you disagreed with "word of faust" you would be lucky to not get shanked cause lauren is god tier in the fandom.
Ok, let me be clear here.  I've been around the Star Wars fandom a long time and you are misusing the word 'canon'.

Lauren Faust is not canon.  That is not what the word means.  Canon is what happens on the screen, or in the comic book, or in whatever other published media are produced. (Generally in a hierarchy -- the show trumps the comic book, the comic trumps one-off books, etc.)

Word of Faust, Word of Wootie, or any other crew statements are useful in as far as they are statements of intent, but they are subject to change at any time by having an episode that says otherwise.  Faust herself has made this very clear; anything she says is only speaking to her original intent.  Heck, even if she'd stayed on the show, that intent may or may not have actually been in force two-plus years later.  Original intent is always subordinate to the needs of the actual show-writing process.

Word of Faust trumps nothing.  Somebody can grumble that her original idea was better than what was eventually produced, but again, needs of the show -- we can't re-rack history and see how the show would've played out if Faust had stayed on it.  The show as shown is always "the truth" regardless of what Lauren originally meant to happen.
In effect, Lauren Faust's statements are the equivalent of Lucas saying that Greedo shot first.

Also, perhaps the Star Wars EU is the wrong thing to bring up when the new trilogy is very likely to obliterate all of it.
You guys better not say this at any pony convention cause chances are someone would break your nose for this view. The reason being is that we have fan art of lauren faust's oc being depicted AS god. When I say "god tier" I don't mean it metaphorically, I mean it literally to the brony fandom disagreeing with faust is heresy and that I may be ballsy as fuck, but even I have enough common sense to not disagree with faust openly in public cause I would wind up with my blood all over the sidewalk.

I personally disagree on some of lauren's original ideas, but I would never openly disagree in public cause that's a quick way to end up in the emergency room.

I'm just warning you guys to not say this next time you go to a pony convention.
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Post by FeatherDust Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:27 pm

Uh huh. Sure. Whatever.
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Post by FeatherDust Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:31 pm

The comment so outre, I had to disbelieve it twice.
No seriously, what made that message double post five minutes apart..?!

-------

https://cloudsville.rpg-board.net/viewtopic.forum?t=1101


Last edited by FeatherDust on Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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