[GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Scienza]

Aye. A relationship is a team effort, and that means that the both parties have to be willing to compromise to make it work. If having a somewhat self-destructive relationship is where the story's going, that'd certainly an interesting (and very depressing) turn, but as it stands, I'm just very, very ambivalent towards Blackjack when it comes to her Glorymancing. I was wrong to say that she doesn't necessarily care that much about Glory, as Ch. 66 indicates that she does, but the important question is whether she cares enough.

Either way, when it's all said and done, Blackjack needs to think for a long while on exactly where she stands.

[O. Hinds]

That's actually really important, since there doesn't seem to be anything beyond a platonic relationship between Glory and P-21. Sex is one thing, and even that she's only accepted because Blackjack does it, but when it comes to actual love, Glory seems to be pretty monogamous.

1) I'm pretty sure you can't call it "platonic" after participating in a threesome.
2) Monogamous except for said threesome. And Splendid. You know, come to think of it, "monogamous" may be a bit too strong a word.
3) You're kind of assuming Glory and P-21's relationship will not have evolved at all during 3 months without BJ, and will continue to fail to evolve in the future. There's been an undercurrent of something between them for a long time -- notably ever since BJ left the group at the FSMC -- and you can call it "platonic love" or "strong frienship" if you want, but I'm just going to go with "love". That doesn't necessarily imply romance or sex, but I don't think it's a stretch to think she'd ask P-21 before anyone else.

P.S. Another Edit:

Ah, thank you. I'm afraid that I disagree on the punctuation, though; I've removed the colon, but I've not added the comma.

[Guest]

But having a child, and offering them up to BJ is incredibly selfish.

You say that as if the kid -- by then an adult -- had no say in the matter.

And again, which part of "extreme measures" confuses you? It's a potential solution. That's all. Not a great solution, not one I'm advocating, and it certainly has uncomfortable moral implications, which I thought I implied in the original post. It's just a solution.

Choosing a male that has problems with not only drug abuse, but is again possibly slightly in-bred so your kid can serve this purpose is even more selfish.

I... buh... WHAT?? How about choosing a male that she loves?!

And as far as wanting more kids, well doesn't she have two younger siblings to take care of when all is said and done?

I don't have the slightest idea how to respond to this.  Helping to raise one's school-aged siblings is not even remotely the same as having a child of your own.

But anyway, that sort of implies that Sky Striker can't do the job himself, and he's been handling it for what, ten years now?

1. Does it matter? To find out that you were born to serve a purpose instead of being born because someone cared enough to have you is still awful.

2. I think you may be reading into something that isn't there. I certainly don't think Glory loves P-21 or vice versa. At least not in the way you're implying.

3. Glory I'm pretty sure has mentioned helping raising them before. Sky striker likely had a job where being a full time parent wasn't viable, and probably can't manage it on his own. If he even survives, glory does not have a cure for innervation poisoning. She'll probably still have to help.

@Scienza Thank you, you've made points that I'm not eloquent enough to make on my own. But have thought for a majority of the story.

[Icy Shake]

Source

Welcome to the Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion Thread!
This is the place to discuss Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons, a Fallout/MLP:FiM crossover fic by Somber. Story discussion is on the left, group therapy to the right. Please try to schedule your emotional breakdowns when they don't conflict with anyone else's.

Rules
We have just a few simple rules here.

1. Don't put down Somber.
   
2. Project Horizons is a grimdark fic which deals with adult topics, so we might discuss subjects that some readers may find uncomfortable. Be mature about it.
   
3. If Somber or a member of the editing team says to end a discussion, please do so.
   
4. Spoilers abound. If you're not current on the fic, we recommend that you catch up before you read on.
   
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6. Have fun!
   

People You Should Know
Somber: The author of Project Horizons, creator of Blackjack, maker of awesomeness, is a small gray mare who lives in the head of a guy named David. Ignore her claims of suckage.
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[Scienza]

To be fair, the argument that P-21 would be an inferior donor because he's decently inbred is somewhat flawed since they're all probably going to be decently inbred. Like, the only characters who aren't going to be pretty inbred are Pre-War (Psycho, Silver Stripe, all the ghouls) and/or genetics no longer properly applies to them (Rampage, Lacunae, Dealer, Cogs, etc.)  The continuous lifelong drug abuse thing is still definitely true. It's done a number on his lifespan and probably a number on his bits.

[SilentCarto]

She can't control her hormones or what she's attracted to, but the fact that she goes googly-eyed over every stallion she comes across kind of cheapens her relationship with Glory and gives the unpleasant impression that, when you get down to it, Blackjack doesn't really care about her nearly as much as Glory cares about BJ. Compare it to Glory's three months of longing and melancholy and you can see why I feel uncomfortable about this.

I don't entirely disagree with this, but I feel like I need to defend BJ anyway.

I think I'd say Blackjack isn't good at caring. When we were discussing Past Blackjack's feelings toward Future Blackjack, I noted that Past Blackjack was a pretty selfish mare. Not a brat like Diamond Tiara, but basically self-centered. She's been working against that tendancy ever since it was brought to her attention, but she still has to consciously remind herself that "it's not all about me" and think about others' feelings rather than doing so by instinct.

That said, BJ has always been split between the demands of relationship and duty; she could go settle down in Chapel, as she has noted before. But she won't, because there are things that are more important to her than her own or Glory's happiness. BJ can't sit around and be happy when others -- even ponies she doesn't know personally -- are suffering. Maybe that's 50% guilt, 40% Messiah complex, and 10% suicidal tendancies, I don't know. But whatever is is that drives BJ, she is who she is.

Glory doesn't share that sense of duty, or at least doesn't share the sense of community responsibility. She'll solve a problem that falls into her lap, but she doesn't go looking for trouble. She'll look at a place like Paradise and say, "Yeah, that's awful," but she won't grab a shotgun and say, "Let's go fix it." In short, BJ's a cop and Glory's not. And, not to put too fine a point on it, that's why Glory is a secondary character and not the hero.

As I mentioned, love and sex are very different. When it comes to sex and attraction, Glory's kind of been pressured into following Blackjack's attitudes, but when it comes to actual heart-pounding, knee-weakening, spend-your-whole-life-together love, she's only ever indicated that towards Blackjack.

What you're describing is being in love, which is a condition that fades after about 3 to 9 months. (This is the purpose of getting engaged rather than just marrying immediately, by the way -- giving the rose-colored glasses time to wear off and figure out whether you're actually compatible in the long run.)

Rampage's assertion that Glory'd be upset over Blackjack's watching of other ponies' sexy-time, and Splendid's regrets towards Glory suggest that she hasn't been wildly butt-touching over the last three months as well.

Well, I didn't suggest she had. Maybe I'm not being clear -- I'm not saying Glory would have given up on BJ, nor that growing closer to P-21 would imply they're sleeping together. But who do you think she would turn to for comfort when she started to doubt that BJ was really still alive?

Maybe you're right that P-21 would be Glory's first choice as a donor (he is, after all, a mutual friend of the two), but I don't think that Glory'd honestly go for it. Of all the possible reasons to have a kid, "for use as a birthing device" is probably one of the worst.

You keep treating this as if P-21's involvement would end once Glory got pregnant. I'd fully expect that she would intend P-21 to be the father in more than just the biological sense.

[SilentCarto]

P.S. Another Edit:

Ah, thank you.  I'm afraid that I disagree on the punctuation, though; I've removed the colon, but I've not added the comma.

Um... why? You're literally quoting the location as if it were speaking. It should be treated exactly like any other line of dialogue, right down to the double quotes and comma.

[Guest]

@Scienza I was talking more of the Glory/BJ relationship stuff.

Rampage's assertion that Glory'd be upset over Blackjack's watching of other ponies' sexy-time, and Splendid's regrets towards Glory suggest that she hasn't been wildly butt-touching over the last three months as well.

Well, I didn't suggest she had. Maybe I'm not being clear -- I'm not saying Glory would have given up on BJ, nor that growing closer to P-21 would imply they're sleeping together. But who do you think she would turn to for comfort when she started to doubt that BJ was really still alive?

How about her father? Or her four sisters? She has acess to her family now, something she didn't have before.

[Vinylshadow]

Yeah, make HIM change all the diapers!

[O. Hinds]

P.S. Another Edit:

Ah, thank you.  I'm afraid that I disagree on the punctuation, though; I've removed the colon, but I've not added the comma.

Um... why? You're literally quoting the location as if it were speaking. It should be treated exactly like any other line of dialogue, right down to the double quotes and comma.

Eh, fine. It doesn't look right to me, but I'm operating on less than four hours of sleep.

[SilentCarto]

The continuous lifelong drug abuse thing is still definitely true. It's done a number on his lifespan and probably a number on his bits.

Doesn't seem to have hurt his performance with BJ...

Does it matter? To find out that you were born to serve a purpose instead of being born because someone cared enough to have you is still awful.

Celestia H. Alicorn! When the hell did I ever say this would be solely for the purpose of breeding an incubator?  

I suggested that a hypothetical daughter of P-21 and Glory would be a viable surrogate. That's it. No further implications.

Glory I'm pretty sure has mentioned helping raising them before. Sky striker likely had a job where being a full time parent wasn't viable, and probably can't manage it on his own. If he even survives, glory does not have a cure for innervation poisoning. She'll probably still have to help.

I'll grant that she helped raise Lucent and Lambent when they were babies, but they're like Apple Bloom's age now. Glory didn't seem to have any misgivings about signing up for an extended tour with the Volunteer Corps.

Anyway, what are Moonshadow and Dusk? Chopped liver?

[Scienza]

You raise some interesting points. Glory is interesting in that she's pretty much the only character who had a positive father-figure in her life, and so the way she'd interact with P-21 post-baby-making would be very interesting. I'm still not with you on whether her feelings towards P-21 are more than platonic, but maybe they don't need to be for the trio to raise kids together. They could still be a perfectly functioning family, albeit a rather dysfunctional one, and I think that it'd be how the gang would eventually settle regardless of whether Glory and P-21 got together.

As for Blackjack and Glory, you're right in that I should probably be slightly more fair in that Blackjack is most certainly not intended to be a perfect person, and her relationships probably wouldn't be either. Her particular mix of self-destructive martyrdom and other toxic factors (inclination towards addiction, constant guilt, a high baseline level of instability, etc.) would probably lead to unhealthy relationships regardless. If she wasn't going this way, she'd probably be self-destructively sacrificing everything for Glory.

I'm so intense about how BJ treats Glory because I otherwise really like Blackjack, I really like Glory, I really like how they work together, and I really just honestly want to see them both happy, but maybe that's not how these things necessarily turn out.

The continuous lifelong drug abuse thing is still definitely true. It's done a number on his lifespan and probably a number on his bits.

Doesn't seem to have hurt his performance with BJ...

He can probably still have sex and produce kids, but the Med-X has probably done a lot of stuff to his sperm. A cursory glance at some research indicates that opiates have severe impact on the count and quality of sperm, even years after the last dose.

Also, I noticed that we've only been looking on the Sparkle side of the family for donors. BJ is also genetically an Apple, which opens up some very big doors if we want to start looking for cousins. Still, Somber's solution is probably going to be a lot simpler than anything we've proposed.

[SilentCarto]

How about her father? Or her four sisters? She has acess to her family now, something she didn't have before.

Granted, though that didn't begin until a week or so after BJ disappeared. Maybe I am looking at P-21 and Glory through shipping-colored glasses, but... eh, I'm keeping them on. Everything looks cute in here.

[Scienza]

How about her father? Or her four sisters? She has acess to her family now, something she didn't have before.

Granted, though that didn't begin until a week or so after BJ disappeared. Maybe I am looking at P-21 and Glory through shipping-colored glasses, but... eh, I'm keeping them on. Everything looks cute in here.

Rampage x Lacunae OTP (although now it's really sad).

Shipping glasses are fun, though. I'm still going to insist that Rainbow Dash had a thing for Applejack in the original and maybe a bit in PH as well.

[SilentCarto]

I'm so intense about how BJ treats Glory because I otherwise really like Blackjack, I really like Glory, I really like how they work together, and I really just honestly want to see them both happy, but maybe that's not how these things necessarily turn out.

You and me both. I'm still concerned about whether BJ is going to survive all this, though it seems a pity to give her a new body only to blow it up again a day or so later.

Also, I noticed that we've only been looking on the Sparkle side of the family for donors. BJ is also genetically an Apple, which opens up some very big doors if we want to start looking for cousins. Still, Somber's solution is probably going to be a lot simpler than anything we've proposed.

This isn't like the door locks accepting a great-to-the-nth-granddaughter. The surrogate has to be a very close blood relation to have any decent chance. I believe they said even a first cousin dropped the chances to something like 50%? I can't quite find the reference on that. Point being, since the population controls on 99 precluded sisters and BJ's mother is dead, that track is looking pretty sparse unless BJ has a half-sister on her father's side among the survivors. Which is possible, but I'm not sure how they could find that out unless Medical kept much better records than I think they did.

Of course, on that tack, there's also Duct Tape, as has been mentioned repeatedly. Sticking the fetus in stasis and hoping Duct Tape will be agreeable when she grows up is probably the best choice right now, outside of getting BJ's cloned bits working right.

I wonder whether Cogs already put it in stasis so she wouldn't have to worry about it, or if she's going to take the baby to the Moon in utero just like Marigold did...

[SilentCarto]

Shipping glasses are fun, though. I'm still going to insist that Rainbow Dash had a thing for Applejack in the original and maybe a bit in PH as well.

Rarijack 4ever

[Icy Shake]

Also, I noticed that we've only been looking on the Sparkle side of the family for donors. BJ is also genetically an Apple, which opens up some very big doors if we want to start looking for cousins.

To the extent that there are other Apples in 99, that's a possibility. But if you're looking outside, then it's basically a no-go. You'd be looking at—at best and assuming equal generation duration on each side—tenth cousins, eleven generations since a common ancestor, if you take someone from Stable 2 or a heretofore unknown descendent of Apple Bloom. To put it simply, that's nothing. It can be a bit more than that if you allow for inbreeding, but that would probably be more pronounced in Stable 99 than Stable 2. Say that gets you the equivalent of four brother-sister pairings over the eleven generations. That'd leave you with seven generations from common ancestor to each descendent, or one part in 128. You'd expect the eleventh cousin to share something like 1/16000 or .0061% of their DNA based on that common ancestry.

Basically, what SilentCarto said.

[Scienza]

Shipping glasses are fun, though. I'm still going to insist that Rainbow Dash had a thing for Applejack in the original and maybe a bit in PH as well.

Rarijack 4ever

But AppleDash is so totally there.

TL;DR RD wants the Apples:

[O. Hinds]

...And now I'm sad for Rainbow's unrequited love.

[Scienza]

...And now I'm sad for Rainbow's unrequited love.

Yeah, especially when you consider what happens after the apocalypse. Applejack is probably gone, the isolationist state that Rainbow inadvertently created is refusing to aid the mud ponies, and the only pony that Dash can talk to, the only one still left who knew AJ the way that she did, is fucking Steelhooves. Maybe the reason why Dash latches on so strongly to her "grandchildren" is that she never got to have the family that she always wanted.

Also, AJ and Steelhooves are still cousins, which is never addressed or dealt with. In the original Fo:E, that status was mostly just implied conjecture since their names both start with Apple, but in PH, it's like actually canon. Big Mac and Applesnack's first interaction directly states that they know of each other through a shared Apple relative, and IIRC they both attended an Apple family reunion together. Is that just normal earth pony protocol?

[Rayndalf]

They could still be a perfectly functioning family, albeit a rather dysfunctional one, and I think that it'd be how the gang would eventually settle regardless of whether Glory and P-21 got together.

A dysfunctional family that is perfectly functional. That's an odd concept...

As for Blackjack and Glory, you're right in that I should probably be slightly more fair in that Blackjack is most certainly not intended to be a perfect person, and her relationships probably wouldn't be either. Her particular mix of self-destructive martyrdom and other toxic factors (inclination towards addiction, constant guilt, a high baseline level of instability, etc.) would probably lead to unhealthy relationships regardless. If she wasn't going this way, she'd probably be self-destructively sacrificing everything for Glory.

Blackjack's drinking -> Domestic violence?

[Scienza]

They could still be a perfectly functioning family, albeit a rather dysfunctional one, and I think that it'd be how the gang would eventually settle regardless of whether Glory and P-21 got together.

A dysfunctional family that is perfectly functional. That's an odd concept..

Relatively functional-ish. The kid would be mostly intact. 75% of the original limbs is still an acceptable average.

Blackjack's drinking -> Domestic violence?

Maybe not intentionally, but Blackjack does seem to get violently whacked out a lot. We don't really see it as such (since we know the story through Blackjack's cheerfully boozy perspective), but Blackjack gets scary when she's drunk. There's also stuff like the fact that she's very liable to die long before Glory, that she might not be able to properly consider how much her family needs her before she rushes to sacrifice herself, stuff like that.

Also, Blackjack might have pony STDs.

[O. Hinds]

...And now I'm sad for Rainbow's unrequited love.

Yeah, especially when you consider what happens after the apocalypse. Applejack is probably gone, the isolationist state that Rainbow inadvertently created is refusing to aid the mud ponies, and the only pony that Dash can talk to, the only one still left who knew AJ the way that she did, is fucking Steelhooves. Maybe the reason why Dash latches on strongly to her "grandchildren" is that she never got to have the family that she always wanted.

Oh, actually, it might be even worse for Rainbow if she found out that Applejack was safe in Stable 2 (and she probably would have been able to find enough evidence for reasonable certainty). If Applejack was just dead like the others, it at least would have been closure; Rainbow could have immediately started working past it. But with Applejack safe in the Stable, well, Rainbow could take comfort in knowing that she was safe, but there's also the fact that Applejack would be still alive but completely cut off from Rainbow. Dash would have no idea what was going on in Applejack's life, whether she was happy or sad, whether she ever reconsidered Dash's "jokes", even when she died.

[O. Hinds]

Also, Blackjack might have pony STDs.

Well, maybe before, but I imagine that cyberization would have killed those. And now, of course, she has a completely new body that… probably hasn't ever had sex.

[Scienza]

Oh, actually, it might be even worse for Rainbow if she found out that Applejack was safe in Stable 2 (and she probably would have been able to find enough evidence for reasonable certainty).  If Applejack was just dead like the others, it at least would have been closure; Rainbow could have immediately started working past it.  But with Applejack safe in the Stable, well, Rainbow could take comfort in knowing that she was safe, but there's also the fact that Applejack would be still alive but completely cut off from Rainbow.  Dash would have no idea what was going on in Applejack's life, whether she was happy or sad, whether she ever reconsidered Dash's "jokes", even when she died.

Why is shippy fanfic speculation making me feel these feelings?

[Icy Shake]

Blackjack's drinking -> Domestic violence?

Maybe not intentionally, but Blackjack does seem to get violently whacked out a lot. We don't really see it as such (since we know the story through Blackjack's cheerfully boozy perspective), but Blackjack gets scary when she's drunk. There's also stuff like the fact that she's very liable to die long before Glory, that she might not be able to properly consider how much her family needs her before she rushes to sacrifice herself, stuff like that.

Also, Blackjack might have pony STDs.

Has Blackjack ever been violent due to drunkenness, rather than just somewhat less inhibited in her methods while drunk? I can't really think of any. Far as I could tell, even while fighting, she was more of a fun drunk than a violent or abusive one.

As for STDs, maybe if she gets her old body back, but I doubt it even granting some other things for the cloned body (though I guess Cognitum could have infected it out of spite or something), since carrying over infectious diseases to new tissue seems like a pretty bad feature for an organ factory to have. On a larger level, I've been convinced for some time that there just aren't STDs in Fallout Equestria, because there's no good reason for them not to have come up, in conversation as a lower bound, in Project Horizons at the very least.

[Scienza]

Has Blackjack ever been violent due to drunkenness, rather than just somewhat less inhibited in her methods while drunk? I can't really think of any. Far as I could tell, even while fighting, she was more of a fun drunk than a violent or abusive one.

As for STDs, maybe if she gets her old body back, but I doubt it even granting some other things for the cloned body (though I guess Cognitum could have infected it out of spite or something), since carrying over infectious diseases to new tissue seems like a pretty bad feature for an organ factory to have. On a larger level, I've been convinced for some time that there just aren't STDs in Fallout Equestria, because there's no good reason for them not to have come up, in conversation as a lower bound, in Project Horizons at the very least.

She's a brutally effective killing machine while drunk. She does tend to lean towards fun drunk, but she has enough buttons that it could be really bad if one of them gets inadvertently pushed when she isn't fully in control of herself. Also, a propensity towards burying her feels in booze isn't that good of an idea in a vast wasteland of powerful feels.

As for the STDs, you're right that they probably would have been mentioned earlier, but its possible that the gang just doesn't know about recent wasteland diseases. They've all been part of isolated populations (except Rampage, but as far as I can tell, she's just immune to most diseases in general), and so they'd probably be missing some crucial information (why worry about other forms of protection when you've got your implant and you know that everypony in the Stable already got screened?), as well be more vulnerable to all diseases as well as STDs, Blackjack is also just so far beyond the baseline that what would normally constitute a worrying anomaly or a definitive symptom is just par for the course.

This discussion has evolved so interestingly. We went from baby hosts to creating an unwilling sentient birthing aid, then to Chapter 69, then to blank hormones, then to baby daddies, then to making a different kind of sentient birthing aid, then to shipping, and finally the discussion went to pony chlamydia.

[O. Hinds]

With a side trip into a tragic story of unrequited love, don't forget.

[Scienza]

With a side trip into a tragic story of unrequited love, don't forget.

I don't think I can ever forget.

[SilentCarto]

Yeah, especially when you consider what happens after the apocalypse. Applejack is probably gone...

What do you mean, "probably"? She was buried in the orchard in Stable 2.

Also, AJ and Steelhooves are still cousins, which is never addressed or dealt with. In the original Fo:E, that status was mostly just implied conjecture since their names both start with Apple, but in PH, it's like actually canon. Big Mac and Applesnack's first interaction directly states that they know of each other through a shared Apple relative, and IIRC they both attended an Apple family reunion together. Is that just normal earth pony protocol?

Keeping in mind that Pinkie is also AJ's "cousin" (maybe). It doesn't mean first cousin. The Apple family is extremely large, and being related to them is kind of like being a blood relation to Genghis Khan (which is the case for 1 in 200 Europeans.)

Relatively functional-ish. The kid would be mostly intact. 75% of the original limbs is still an acceptable average.

...Hired Gun? Is that you?

With a side trip into a tragic story of unrequited love, don't forget.

I don't think I can ever forget.

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