Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

[Stringtheory]

I can stop anytime I want to.
...
...
*sees someone going in to steal a video away*

WHAT?! PUMKIN?! WHAT!? WHAT!? WHAT?! WHAT?! PUMPKIN WHAT?!

[Meleagridis]

Fuckin' vampires

Well at least we don't have to worry at all about a zombie romance like what happened with vampires.

[CamoBadger]

...
I would post it, but you all know what it is already

[Harmony Ltd.]

Still a better love story than...

Whoops.

[Harmony Ltd.]

RE World War Z :

I don't expect much, and the movie has Brad Pitt in it in the role of "The Good Father" so I don't expect much from the character work, but at least I have hope that the action scenes will be visually interesting.

[Caoimhe]

I wish this zombie fad would go away already. There's nothing interesting left to plunder from it all.

[Ketchup]

Well, the only problem with this is that World War Z fucking sucked

It is one of my favorite books. I read it through recently.
What's your beef with it?

And no, the movie is pretty much nothing like the book from what I've seen.

[Frost]

RE World War Z :

I don't expect much, and the movie has Brad Pitt in it in the role of "The Good Father" so I don't expect much from the character work, but at least I have hope that the action scenes will be visually interesting.

Having read the book, the only thing that stuck of about the action scenes is the sheer amount of sense they did not make. Anyone with two-tenths of a single neuron could understand that that whole "Battle of Jonkers" was a load of utter shit.

I'm not a bitter person, but I hope this movie crashes and burns.

[Harmony Ltd.]

So, what would be next in the role of "culturally iconic monster" ?

What about this :


Nothing distinguish them from normal people from the outside, and when it happen to you don't notice it, going on with your normal life ; but these people in fact have become Hollow. They lack empathy. They don't feel pain, nor joy nor sorrow. They aren't even really sentient anymore, lacking self-reflection.
Even though, still as intelligent as they were before, lacking any form of emotion, they are as biological machines. They each have different goals, related to who they were, taking them to their logical extremes.

[Frost]

I'm calling it now: next monster craze is Wendigos

[Harmony Ltd.]

RE World War Z :

I don't expect much, and the movie has Brad Pitt in it in the role of "The Good Father" so I don't expect much from the character work, but at least I have hope that the action scenes will be visually interesting.

Having read the book, the only thing that stuck of about the action scenes is the sheer amount of sense they did not make. Anyone with two-tenths of a single neuron could understand that that whole "Battle of Jonkers" was a load of utter shit.

I'm not a bitter person, but I hope this movie crashes and burns.

I agree with you on that, but I take it in another direction : Given the base material, they can only improve on it.

I think they did well by choosing to do an action flick with it. People have grown not to expect them to make sense.

[Ketchup]

Having read the book, the only thing that stuck of about the action scenes is the sheer amount of sense they did not make. Anyone with two-tenths of a single neuron could understand that that whole "Battle of Jonkers" was a load of utter shit.

I'm not a bitter person, but I hope this movie crashes and burns.

The Battle of Yonkers was for propaganda. The point of the whole set up was to create a curbstomp battle between the US Army and Air Force and the Manhattan swarm. It failed because of the tactics adopted from the Iraq War of "shock and awe" were used. Brooks probably put it in to show that they had no idea what they were fighting, using artillery, airstrikes, and suppressive fire, when few knew that only headshots would really work.
They wanted to put on a good show, and they were defeated.

[Harmony Ltd.]

So, what would be next in the role of "culturally iconic monster" ?

What about this :


Nothing distinguish them from normal people from the outside, and when it happen to you don't notice it, going on with your normal life ; but these people in fact have become Hollow. They lack empathy. They don't feel pain, nor joy nor sorrow. They aren't even really sentient anymore, lacking self-reflection.
Even though, still as intelligent as they were before, lacking any form of emotion, they are as biological machines. They each have different goals, related to who they were, taking them to their logical extremes.

Basically, imagine something that turn you into highly functioning psychopath without you even really noticing.

[Frost]

Having read the book, the only thing that stuck of about the action scenes is the sheer amount of sense they did not make. Anyone with two-tenths of a single neuron could understand that that whole "Battle of Jonkers" was a load of utter shit.

I'm not a bitter person, but I hope this movie crashes and burns.

The Battle of Yonkers was for propaganda. The point of the whole set up was to create a curbstomp battle between the US Army and Air Force and the Manhattan swarm. It failed because of the tactics adopted from the Iraq War of "shock and awe" were used. Brooks probably put it in to show that they had no idea what they were fighting, using artillery, airstrikes, and suppressive fire, when few knew that only headshots would really work.
They wanted to put on a good show, and they were defeated.

I understand the purpose of the portrayal. What I dont understand is how in the goddamn fuck did the military lose?

Let's assume, for a second, that these zombies are fundamentally, biologically capable of existing and moving (which they're not, despite Brooks' claims to realism, his knowledge of biology seems to be about the fifth-grade level)

Then, we assume, that, somehow, there came to be that many zombies in the first place, and that virtually no one in all of New York just grabbed a baseball bar and started swinging (it's never, ever explained how the zombies went from "2-3 dozen" to "city-crushing horde" and totally skipped the part where people started hunting them for bloodsport.)

Then, we assume that the U.S. Military really is such a fuckup as to bend over backwards for reporters. Yes, in real life they do cater to PR a bit, but they don't base tactics around the media.

Then, we assume that the military somehow is such a fuckup that they have their boys in trenches and gas masks despite the lack of need for it.

Them, we assume that the soldiers have never seen a zombie movie and know that, in magical-nonrealistic-zombie-world, only that magical headshot can kill them, and as such fire their selective-fire(read: semi- or full-y, usually kept on semi-automatic) carbines on full-auto despite the rarity of that function's use in real life, as Camo has attested to on the Gun Thread

Then, we assume that all of the tank shells and artillery and bombs and missiles had their explosive charges removed and replaced with firecrackers, turning weapons capable of leveling a city block, such as the MOAB, into harmless little stun grenades, because both yourself and Brooks seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of shock-and-awe weaponry.

There, now the whole scene makes perfect sense!

[Meleagridis]

So, what would be next in the role of "culturally iconic monster" ?

What about this :


Nothing distinguish them from normal people from the outside, and when it happen to you don't notice it, going on with your normal life ; but these people in fact have become Hollow. They lack empathy. They don't feel pain, nor joy nor sorrow. They aren't even really sentient anymore, lacking self-reflection.
Even though, still as intelligent as they were before, lacking any form of emotion, they are as biological machines. They each have different goals, related to who they were, taking them to their logical extremes.

Basically, imagine something that turn you into highly functioning psychopath without you even really noticing.

...Honestly, I don't think that's extreme enough. Is it really a good monster for a monster craze if it can happen in real life? I could see something short about this (and it would probably be very interesting... imagine Mother Theresa types becoming a ruthless deliveryman of what they thought 'good' was before they lost the ability to define 'good.') but I couldn't see it lasting a generation.

Unless you used a metaphor.

Like zombies. Sigh.

I'm not a bitter person, but

Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show, I should really-"
Nevermind, try this instead:

"Max Brooks, son of famed funny man Mel Brooks, wrote a special interest Bathroom Reader. So many people liked his book of 'zombie what-ifs you can read on the toilet' that he got to write a non-bathroom book about it. So many people liked this new book that it got a big movie, which makes as much sense as other big movies which is to say not a lot. So instead of putting my energy into hating Max Brooks' books, I should really be applying myself to make the next big thing... Wendigos."

[Frost]

It's not so much the lack of realism that bugs me. It's the fact that he's self-righteously and smugly trying to say "this is what would REALLY happen!" While being ludicrously unrealistic. And hitting us over the head with heavy-handed Aesops about technology 'n shit. It really doesn't have any coherence at all.

Meanwhile, 30 Days of Night could be thought of as a Wendigo movie. True, they were called "Vampires", but they were more monstrous-looking than most modern vampires (if less monstrous-looking than traditional Wendigos) and seemed to do as much eating of their victims as drinking.

[Harmony Ltd.]

...Honestly, I don't think that's extreme enough. Is it really a good monster for a monster craze if it can happen in real life? I could see something short about this (and it would probably be very interesting... imagine Mother Theresa types becoming a ruthless deliveryman of what they thought 'good' was before they lost the ability to define 'good.') but I couldn't see it lasting a generation.

Unless you used a metaphor.

Like zombies. Sigh.

[Ketchup]

Snip

Now, I prefer more civil discussion to that sort.
First, the US military is very well publicized as being incredibly powerful and proficient, which is true to an extent. I'm sometimes annoyed by the tendency of Americans to think that the US would win in any battle, if that makes sense to you.
In order:
You are correct, as zombies are biologically impossible. All zombie fiction takes that break from reality. If you dislike that so much, than why did you read the book in the first place? It would obviously contain that kind of inaccuracy.

The proliferation of zombies isn't explained in great detail, no. One person with a weapon either runs out of ammunition or gets overwhelmed in melee. When people panic, organization tends to fail to take hold. Also, when a terrorist starts shooting people, does everyone attack? No, they flee. Rough analogy, but it should get that point across.
It is mentioned, mostly in Brooks' other media, that the little outbreaks were defeated, but when people started to flee en-masse from areas that were compromised(i.e. Africa and China) without proper screening, they spread out, died, and reanimated. Americans were marketed a drug that was a 'vaccine', which did nothing. Meant to raise morale, it created a false sense of security in the populace.

Mind you, New York, THE American city, for whatever reason, had fallen. Morale among everyone was low. It was silly and exaggerated of them to shape it around the press as much as Brooks wrote they did, but they needed a widely-publicized victory.

The reason for that is to make it look good and to take precaution that the virus was airborne, as they weren't sure at that time. The book specifically states that.

They used controlled fire with rifles, and they did know to shoot them in the head, I specifically remember that the person that was giving the 'account' mentioned that a soldier panicked when his shots clipped the skull, but didn't hit the center of the brain, not killing the zombie. The soldier giving the 'interview' was a SAW gunner, not a rifleman.

The battle had to be contained to the freeway at Yonkers, so not a single MOAB was used. They wanted New York intact. JDAMs and other ordinance were used, but the shockwave from an explosion wouldn't destroy the brain, and shrapnel is unlikely to. Shockwaves burst liquid cavities in the body, the dead don't need any of those cavities intact. Using shock and awe tactics against an enemy that feels neither shock or awe is pretty pointless. Abrams tanks don't carry very many anti-personnel shells(42 shells in total), and HEAT has a pretty small warhead for that purpose. Grenades, obviously, would be pretty much useless.

[Frost]

Really? Because I'm pretty certain anything inside the blast-radius of a JDAM is pretty much reduced to chunky salsa. HEAT, remember, stands for "High Explosive Anti-Tank." It's hard to shamble up and bite someone when you and all your buddies are in 85,000 pieces. It's quite clear that your only source of information on what S&A weapons do to human bodies was the book itself, which, as discussed, was hilariously inaccurate.

Yes, people panic during a terrorist attack. Because terrorists have bombs and guns and often attack with no warning and very violently. A zombie loudly and slowly meanders toward you, and the idea that zombies are Things To Be Killed For Fun And Profit is very thoroughly entrenched in the minds of just about everyone in the West. Unless the ratio is at least 20:1 (and, keep in mind, what's being discussed here is how that ratio would come about) the. The humans will go absolutely apeshit on the zombies. Like, "Rise Of the Planet Of The Apeshits." More damage will be done by collateral damage from all the people itching to be a zombie-hunter than from the zombies themselves.

[222222]

@Zombies: but the reason this swarm got so big is because this wasn't an isolated incident. This wasn't the million to one shot that just happened out of no where, this was the one time out of dozens of outbreaks that actually got out of control. Why? Mostly because of population density in large cities like New York. There are a lot of freaking people on an island, and sure you can go at a zombie with a bat, but most people are woefully incapable of doing damage with a bat. The thing is if they don't kill with the first swipe, they are probably screwed because while a human would be stunned by that hit the zombie just got in biting range.

[CamoBadger]

Really? Because I'm pretty certain anything inside the blast-radius of a JDAM is pretty much reduced to chunky salsa. HEAT, remember, stands for "High Explosive Anti-Tank." It's hard to shamble up and bite someone when you and all your buddies are in 85,000 pieces. It's quite clear that your only source of information on what S&A weapons do to human bodies was the book itself, which, as discussed, was hilariously inaccurate.

Depends on which blast-radius you speak of. There is the explosive radius (the actual boom) which is where most of the damage is. There's the kill-radius, where everything inside will die from either concussive force, shrapnel, or heat no matter how tough they are. Then there's the casualty-radius; everything in there is hit by a lower-intensity blast wave, some shrapnel, and mild heat, and may or may not die from these effects. The explosive radius, which is the smallest, will reduce you to burnt kibble...sometimes. Inside the kill-radius, you will be intact, mostly, but your insides will be ketchup (no, I'm not kidding, it's fuckin' gross).

[Ketchup]

Really? Because I'm pretty certain anything inside the blast-radius of a JDAM is pretty much reduced to chunky salsa. HEAT, remember, stands for "High Explosive Anti-Tank." It's hard to shamble up and bite someone when you and all your buddies are in 85,000 pieces. It's quite clear that your only source of information on what S&A weapons do to human bodies was the book itself, which, as discussed, was hilariously inaccurate.

Yes, people panic during a terrorist attack. Because terrorists have bombs and guns and often attack with no warning and very violently. A zombie loudly and slowly meanders toward you, and the idea that zombies are Things To Be Killed For Fun And Profit is very thoroughly entrenched in the minds of just about everyone in the West. Unless the ratio is at least 20:1 (and, keep in mind, what's being discussed here is how that ratio would come about) the. The humans will go absolutely apeshit on the zombies. Like, "Rise Of the Planet Of The Apeshits." More damage will be done by collateral damage from all the people itching to be a zombie-hunter than from the zombies themselves.

My sources for those things isn't the book, rather, it was Wikipedia, and yes I know what you are thinking about that.
JDAMs are just normal bombs with guidance systems.
HEAT shells aren't for dealing with infantry. They are for penetrating armor with a shaped charge. HEDP are similar but have intended fragmentation properties.
The numbers of zombies is ridiculous, I'll give you that.
It is mentioned that more people died from the panic, starvation and other causes than zombies in the book.

[Frost]

And no, I'm not going to ignore basic biology. Not even the biggest idiot on the planet could honestly think something could still be coming at you with all it's organs liquefied, no matter how it can magically function without oxygen (oxygen being necessary to form Adenosine Tri-Phosphate, a vital catalyst for muscle contraction, meaning if they didn't have any form of biological functions they literally couldn't move)

Yes, a human could not take on a horde of a hundred zombies in an apartment building (unless you have a semi-experienced human with plenty of ammo and intelligence) but you know what a human can do? run. Remember, there has to be a step between "the first zombies are in the city/ there's a horde in that building" and "anarchy in the streets". At some point, people are going to realize that the shambling monsters are to be fled from, and they're going to flee. Both yourself and Brooks have seriously underestimated a human's capability for the most basic fight-or-flight instincts

And, unless the person in question is improbably weak and/or clumsy, you'd have a fair bit of effectiveness with a bat or other weapon against foes who make zero effort to defend themselves.

[222222]

@ZombieBiology: here I cannot sympathize with you at all. It is a zombie book. That is to say, a book about zombies. It is a work of fiction. No, the writer didn't figure out how zombies could actually work. Get over it is my only advice, because I guarantee you that not one zombie book is actually possible, it's just the nature of the beast.
@Zombievshumans: sure people could run. People are also stupid, and greedy, and emotionally attached to their family, and skeptical of the incredible, and cocky, and in some cases fat, and afraid to die/willing to lie about being bitten, and they have to sleep. Anyone one of these things and often a combination of them could allow a zombie to bring a human down. Not to mention hospitals, but someone gets bit and brought to a hospital thats a whole building of incapacitated people for a zombie to turn. I think you are overestimating humans capability to survive such an occasion. Particularly the stupid bit, I can't emphasize that enough.

[Ketchup]

And no, I'm not going to ignore basic biology. Not even the biggest idiot on the planet could honestly think something could still be coming at you with all it's organs liquefied, no matter how it can magically function without oxygen (oxygen being necessary to form Adenosine Tri-Phosphate, a vital catalyst for muscle contraction, meaning if they didn't have any form of biological functions they literally couldn't move)

Yes, a human could not take on a horde of a hundred zombies in an apartment building (unless you have a semi-experienced human with plenty of ammo and intelligence) but you know what a human can do? run. Remember, there has to be a step between "the first zombies are in the city/ there's a horde in that building" and "anarchy in the streets". At some point, people are going to realize that the shambling monsters are to be fled from, and they're going to flee. Both yourself and Brooks have seriously underestimated a human's capability for the most basic fight-or-flight instincts

We went over that already. Everyone knows zombies are impossible. Reading a zombie book to criticize the zombies as unrealistic is a bit petty.

It is mentioned in the novel that people do run. The disadvantage to being human is that we tire. The undead, as unrealistic as they are, don't. They also don't require food. You can run with the clothes on your back easily, but taking time to prepare and taking a burden of supplies takes, well, time and haste. Then everyone does it, too, so you get crowds of people trying to get canned food and ammunition while under attack.

[Harmony Ltd.]

From the trailer, it seems that the movie did the zombies differently than in the book.

They aren't the shambler kind, and seems to be more like the "28 days later" kind.

Basically, once you get bitten, you transform into a zombie in a few seconds, two minutes at most, and then you become hyper-agressive, running after those who haven't been bitten yet to try to infect them.


So, in these conditions, I could see how Manhattan could be swamped in "zombies" in under a day.


Though it in no way change what frost said regarding the effectiveness of high-explosives against them.



Also, I think I saw the reflection of a mushroom cloud during the trailer, so, yeah....

[Frost]

@ZombieBiology: here I cannot sympathize with you at all. It is a zombie book. That is to say, a book about zombies. It is a work of fiction. No, the writer didn't figure out how zombies could actually work. Get over it is my only advice, because I guarantee you that not one zombie book is actually possible, it's just the nature of the beast.
@Zombievshumans: sure people could run. People are also stupid, and greedy, and emotionally attached to their family, and skeptical of the incredible, and cocky, and in some cases fat, and afraid to die/willing to lie about being bitten, and they have to sleep. Anyone one of these things and often a combination of them could allow a zombie to bring a human down. Not to mention hospitals, but someone gets bit and brought to a hospital thats a whole building of incapacitated people for a zombie to turn. I think you are overestimating humans capability to survive such an occasion. Particularly the stupid bit, I can't emphasize that enough.

I'm not saying there won't be plenty of dying. I'm saying that, on the whole, people aren't idiotic little animals. People who are smart/tough enough to raise children, hold down a job, go through school, cope in the face of tragedy, and generally deal with the chaos of life will probably be able to handle a foe that can be outran at a brisk walk and outsmarted by a dog.

You and me are clearly looking at a different world if you think that we, as the race that builds towers thousands of feet high, travels continents in a matter of hours, had mastered flight, and has harnessed the power of the fundamental forces of nature, is collectively stupid.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Let's not forget that Modern Zombie Movies, AFAIK are historically an allegory of the mindlessness of our modern society, of people loosing their "individuality" in the swarm of conformity, with a touch of criticism of our Consumer Culture (that primal and unrelenting need for "Braaaaaiiiiiins").


People being too dumb to live is completely the point made by zombie movies.

That's why things like World War Z are condemned to failure from a literary standpoint, as by trying to empower the victims, they completely contradict the root of the Zombie thing itself.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I think it is a good point to say I very much like 28 days later. Or Brain Dead. Two very different takes on the zombie genre.

It remain that a GOOD zombie story, in my opinion, can only be a personal, character driven story. If you start to want to treat the thing logically, like World War Z tried to do, it will inevitably start to fall apart.

[222222]

@Frost: the argument I would make is that as a race we didn't master air travel, a handful of individuals building off one another did. As a general rule, people have no idea how the modern world around them works. Not just anybody could invent a car. Even given all the parts most people couldn't figure out how to put a car together.
What I imagine would happen is all the roads and bridges would just be shut down by traffic, sure hundreds maybe a few thousand would escape by car, the rest wouldn't be able to make it out by car especially after the accidents started to pile up. Once people can't drive, they'll either go home and lock their doors or try to walk out. Unfortunately for most people, they don't stock more than a few days food. The grocery stores would be packed, and one zombie in that type of environment means a lot of infected, but few dead. Then they go home and spread it further. The people that try to walk may be better off at first, but once large groups of people start moving zombies will find them or alternatively a bit person will try to walk out.

As fascinating as this conversation is, my Grandma just got into town so I'm sorry to say I won't be posting for several hours.

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