Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Cptadder]

EDIT: Actually no, rushed my response a bit. Jap tanks were so thinly armored that AP and Sabot rounds would pass right through them. HEAT or HE rounds were much more effective.

"Jap" is a derogatory term. It makes me unhappy that you use it in such a way.

I disagree and personally think you're being overly sensitive and far too "politically correct".

Jap is short for Japanese, just like Brit is short for British. Yes, some people have used it in a horrible way in the past, but the word itself was never invented to be an insult the same way nigger was for black people - for example.
It was only really with world war two and the pacific campaign that 'jap' became anything of an insult/racist term.

I've known the odd Jap and they've never ever ever taken offence to the word or thought the slightest of it.

We've covered this before kipper you also don't consider fag to be offensive either demonstrating your blindspot on this issue. And no Jap is not short for Japanese the same way Brit is short for British because no one spent four years calling the Japanese people Japs and producing tons of propaganda about the subhuman japs and how to slap a jap.


Words changing meaning over time, not all words but some, just like Oriental is not insulting as calling a Muslim a Mohammedan or a a Chinese citizen a Chinaman, Jap is offensive if addressing a Japanese person.

That said you'll notice what I put in there and bolded, the word person. Ketchup a tank is not a person, a jap tank is not the same thing as calling a person a jap. Jap is an insult intended for people not thinks unlike say the versatility of "nigger" which yes there was a special WWII special edition form of "nigger" to be used on the Japanese people just like racists have adapted it for middle easterners (Put sand in front of it) and the old form for native Americans (Put prairie in front of it)

*Edit and I forgot if you put white in front if, you mean the Irish.

[Caoimhe]

Also in the era of WWII the Japanese literally wanted to destroy most of the world so there was a unifying context. I don't wanna sound like a redditor or defend racist language but it's interesting how there was also Jerry and Kraut which have the same strength at othering the enemy but are not considered especially bigoted

I also don't mind the term Mick but I hate Americans who are 100 times seperated from Irish ancestry that claim some sort of Irish connection. St. Patrick's Day in America is the worst time of the year for my fam.

[Sindri]

See, despite the hundreds of fine Japanese people I have known, I have never witnessed or heard a genuine account of a Japanese person being offended by the word "Jap." I have however encountered dozens of privileged young Caucasians who leapt upon it immediately and attacked those using the word for being offensive.

It's the worst kind of white knighting, taking it upon yourself to "defend" someone who doesn't care from an offense only you believe happened, and in the process basically saying that the people in question couldn't possibly stand up for themselves and obviously require a noble white man to protect them. I consider this to be much more offensive.

I apologized if anyone here was genuinely hurt by the word, but based on my experience I believe this to be highly unlikely.

People who use "Nippon" instead of Japan are usually annoying japanophiles who watch too much anime.

We usually just call them 'weeaboos' to save time.

[Ironmonger]

EDIT: Actually no, rushed my response a bit. Jap tanks were so thinly armored that AP and Sabot rounds would pass right through them. HEAT or HE rounds were much more effective.

"Jap" is a derogatory term. It makes me unhappy that you use it in such a way.

Also, the T-34-85's fighting American Pershings and early Pattons in the Korean War had the same property. The 90mm guns passed right through them. Sherman "Easy-Eights" were on par with the T-34-85, as 1 hit from the other would usually disable.

As far as I'm concerned it was just a short-hand term that I used since I only had my left hand to type with, I apologize for the possible offense, not for the wording. I'm also going to take this time out to say that when I made that joke only a few Ironmind committee members were at the office, and I don't remember when or how I came up with it. I find it hard to believe that someone would downvote because of a joke, but if that's the risk I have to take I think I'll just keep my trap shut.

[Kippershy]

See, despite the hundreds of fine Japanese people I have known, I have never witnessed or heard a genuine account of a Japanese person being offended by the word "Jap." I have however encountered dozens of privileged young Caucasians who leapt upon it immediately and attacked those using the word for being offensive.

It's the worst kind of white knighting, taking it upon yourself to "defend" someone who doesn't care from an offense only you believe happened, and in the process basically saying that the people in question couldn't possibly stand up for themselves and obviously require a noble white man to protect them. I consider this to be much more offensive.

I apologized if anyone here was genuinely hurt by the word, but based on my experience I believe this to be highly unlikely.

People who use "Nippon" instead of Japan are usually annoying japanophiles who watch too much anime.

We usually just call them 'weeaboos' to save time.

Same here brotha'
Always trying to keep the black man down.


Kidding aside, you are right (in my mind).
Like you say, you've never seen a Japanese person being offended by the word Jap in modern times, I've never seen them offended and I've called them a jap and neither of us even blinked an eye.
I'm not saying I've gone LOLOLOL UR A JAP HUURRR but I have casually referred to them as a jap when we were talking about nationality of a few people and no-one paused or said a thing or did a thing to indicate being upset by it.

Likewise, I've called Katarn "that soviet bastard" which he's actually taken a shining to and put into his own signature on his own accord.


There's a difference between being insulting and simply using a word in a harmless way.

[Kippershy]

Transcript of me and my German friend discussing Jerry / Kraut.
God I have so much wub for this nazi.

Spoiler:

[Sindri]

Likewise, I've called Katarn "that soviet bastard" which he's actually taken a shining to [i]and put into his own signature on his own accord.

Meanwhile about 90% of the time I've heard the word "Paddy" it's been coming from an Irishman, and I've never heard it used offensively in anything but a historical context. Same with lesbians and "dyke" (at least now that I'm not constantly hearing the word as an abbreviation of 'diagonal cutters' any more), non-heterosexuals and "queer", and several other supposedly offensive words that have lost all negative connotation over time. The only people who actually seem to get offended by the words are people who they don't apply to.

"Nigger" remains a perplexing issue, reflective of the complexity of that corner of race relations (and constantly muddied by the politically correct trying to be helpful), and I don't feel like getting into that discussion at this time, but I'm confident it will sort itself out sooner or later. In a few more generations, probably, because people are dumb.

[Ketchup]

@Kipper A German exchange student I know has made jokes about the Holocaust. You'd think most Germans wouldn't do that. I'd think most Japanese people would find it offensive, but that is my view and obviously not yours.

@Sindri Your sarcasm is utterly hilarious. And I've never heard the term "Nippon" before. Upon looking it up it looks like it means "Japan" in Japanese.

@Cao In Canada, we call "Indians" First Nations, to me an "Indian" is someone who lives in or is from India.

@Adder Indeed you are correct, but the tank in question was manned by Japanese soldiers. Likewise, you could apply Jap to an American tank captured by the Japanese thinking like that.

@Sindri I now know you hate what I've said, but I'll stand by it. I've never believed that someone is weak for not reacting to a slur, if they view it as such, because the best way to get around it is just ignoring it and giving no ground by stating it offends them anyway. Calling someone a "Jap" is disrespectful to me, bringing up a part of the past that didn't go so well for the Japanese and the only use of nuclear weapons.

While Jap only became a derogatory term in WW2, it came from Western people. Americans and Canadians. That might be why you see these people reacting to it. A sense of national guilt, perhaps.

And I actually didn't downvote your joke, Iron.

[Valikdu]

@Kipper A German exchange student I know has made jokes about the Holocaust. You'd think most Germans wouldn't do that.

Must... resist... making... joke...
*Valikdu throws will save: success*

Phew.
Here's another macro.

Spoiler:

[Caoimhe]

Holocaust stuff I find extremely offensive but I could see an uncouth German saying stuff like that in another country simply because you can be arrested in Germany for such things for even mentioning topics from that era.

[Kippershy]

@Kipper A German exchange student I know has made jokes about the Holocaust. You'd think most Germans wouldn't do that. I'd think most Japanese people would find it offensive, but that is my view and obviously not yours.

@Sindri Your sarcasm is utterly hilarious. And I've never heard the term "Nippon" before. Upon looking it up it looks like it means "Japan" in Japanese.

@Cao In Canada, we call "Indians" First Nations, to me an "Indian" is someone who lives in or is from India.

@Adder Indeed you are correct, but the tank in question was manned by Japanese soldiers. Likewise, you could apply Jap to an American tank captured by the Japanese thinking like that.

@Sindri I now know you hate what I've said, but I'll stand by it. I've never believed that someone is weak for not reacting to a slur, if they view it as such, because the best way to get around it is just ignoring it and giving no ground by stating it offends them anyway. Calling someone a "Jap" is disrespectful to me, bringing up a part of the past that didn't go so well for the Japanese and the only use of nuclear weapons.

While Jap only became a derogatory term in WW2, it came from Western people. Americans and Canadians. That might be why you see these people reacting to it. A sense of national guilt, perhaps.

And I actually didn't downvote your joke, Iron.

Same with Joey. We had a troll calling him a nazi scumbag and I was like O_____O DUDE, NOT COOL... until Joeyfaggot (Joey's pet name) made some jokes himself and does so freely.

So yeah, my point is...


jews.

[Kippershy]

@Kipper A German exchange student I know has made jokes about the Holocaust. You'd think most Germans wouldn't do that.

Must... resist... making... joke...
*Valikdu throws will save: success*

Phew.
Here's another macro.

Spoiler:

How is Mother Russia today, comrade?

[Ironmonger]

I know you didn't downvote me ketchup and I'm glad. Like my awareness, my sense of humor fluctuates.

[Valikdu]

@Kipper A German exchange student I know has made jokes about the Holocaust. You'd think most Germans wouldn't do that.

Must... resist... making... joke...
*Valikdu throws will save: success*

Phew.
Here's another macro.

Spoiler:

How is Mother Russia today, comrade?

Every day fails to present reasons to draw further breath, and only my vodka keeps me from wandering into the streets at night to be devoured by the balalaika-wielding polar bears.

[Sindri]

I'd think most Japanese people would find it offensive...
And I've never heard the term "Nippon" before.

So just to recap, you looked at a word describing a people you know virtually nothing about, decided that they should be offended by it, and concluded that they needed a foreign kid to be their champion.

@Sindri Your sarcasm is utterly hilarious.

Why thank you!

@Cao In Canada, we call "Indians" First Nations, to me an "Indian" is someone who lives in or is from India.

The Indians/Native Americans/Amerindians/First Nations I've talked to on the subject generally call themselves Indians when they aren't using a more specific term like Cherokee. Basically, Indian was the word used to refer to them when they first started learning English from the Europeans, so that's the word they use when they're speaking English. The ones I talked to were actually annoyed that the politically correct Europeans kept changing the word on them; one silly term made up by white men was the same as another so why couldn't they just leave it be? Though I freely admit that these opinions may be in the minority, as I've only asked a couple.

@Adder Indeed you are correct, but the tank in question was manned by Japanese soldiers. Likewise, you could apply Jap to an American tank captured by the Japanese thinking like that.

Except that the joke was specifically referring to the exceptionally thin armor characteristic of Japanese-constructed tanks; where it was built matters, the operators do not.

Calling someone a "Jap" is disrespectful to me, bringing up a part of the past that didn't go so well for the Japanese and the only use of nuclear weapons.

If you are not a jap, you cannot be the one being disrespected by the use of the term.


No, that part of the past did not go well for the Japanese. It also did not go well for the Nazi party.
That use of nuclear weapons killed hundreds of thousands to save millions more. The warped version of the code of Bushido the Japanese leaders were following at the time did not allow for a surrender, to the point where they refused to give in for three days even after the first atomic bomb fell. The fact that the majority of the casualties were civilian is unfortunate, but a display of ludicrously overwhelming force was the only thing which could end the fighting without a ground invasion, and if you know anything about the fighting that had been going on merely on the approach to the mainland...

And I actually didn't downvote your joke, Iron.

Yeah, that was me, and it had nothing to do with the terminology used and more to do with logging on after a bit of a tribulation, seeing the topic update notification, coming over in hopes of intellectual discussion or at least an amusing diversion, and seeing another bloody stupid pun.

[Ironmonger]

Well ouch.

[Kippershy]

@Kipper A German exchange student I know has made jokes about the Holocaust. You'd think most Germans wouldn't do that.

Must... resist... making... joke...
*Valikdu throws will save: success*

Phew.
Here's another macro.

Spoiler:

How is Mother Russia today, comrade?

Every day fails to present reasons to draw further breath, and only my vodka keeps me from wandering into the streets at night to be devoured by the balalaika-wielding polar bears.

And this is why I love you, almost all of you [forumers] in fact.
Having a good ol' laugh is essential.

[222222]

@Sindri: to be fair, it wasn't a stupid pun, merely a bad pun. A stupid pun indicates the pun was broken in some way, which while Ironmonger has frequently posted stupid puns in the past, this pun actually did in fact work and so at worst can be classified a bad pun.

[Ironmonger]

Bad puns are rather fun (that rhyme wasn't intentional) but kinda hard for me to come up with at times. Most of the time the quality doesn't matter to me, only that someone laughs. Kinda important to me. Laughter is possibly the only thing that has helped me get through my bad years, and I just want to share what helped me. The idea that it casts me in a negative light, if that is whats being said, seems warped to me.

[Sindri]

Every day fails to present reasons to draw further breath, and only my vodka keeps me from wandering into the streets at night to be devoured by the balalaika-wielding polar bears.

Have I mentioned yet that I love you?

Well ouch.

Sorry?

@Sindri: to be fair, it wasn't a stupid pun, merely a bad pun. A stupid pun indicates the pun was broken in some way, which while Ironmonger has frequently posted stupid puns in the past, this pun actually did in fact work and so at worst can be classified a bad pun.

I refuse to study the distinctions between technical categories of bad puns. I am afraid that is where my nigh-limitless thirst for knowledge runs dry. It is the point where my passions for categorization, language, and psychology fail me. And this is where my normally infinite supply of lame snark becomes temporarily inaccessible. Sindri is rebooting, return later.

[222222]

@Ironmonger: I don't generally comment on the quality of jokes as that is a matter of personal preference in my mind, but a stupid or broken pun is a technical distinction that can be objectively decided, so I felt obliged to point out that pun was not in actuality stupid.

[Ketchup]

I'd think most Japanese people would find it offensive...
And I've never heard the term "Nippon" before.

So just to recap, you looked at a word describing a people you know virtually nothing about, decided that they should be offended by it, and concluded that they needed a foreign kid to be their champion.

I don't want to be a champion of any kind! While I respect your interpretation, it's wrong. I have seen someone of Cree descent called a Jap, and it seemed to offend him despite that he wasn't Japanese at all. It angered me then and it still does. You clearly don't understand why, though.

Calling someone a "Jap" is disrespectful to me, bringing up a part of the past that didn't go so well for the Japanese and the only use of nuclear weapons.

If you are not a jap, you cannot be the one being disrespected by the use of the term.

No, that part of the past did not go well for the Japanese. It also did not go well for the Nazi party.
That use of nuclear weapons killed hundreds of thousands to save millions more. The warped version of the code of Bushido the Japanese leaders were following at the time did not allow for a surrender, to the point where they refused to give in for three days even after the first atomic bomb fell. The fact that the majority of the casualties were civilian is unfortunate, but a display of ludicrously overwhelming force was the only thing which could end the fighting without a ground invasion, and if you know anything about the fighting that had been going on merely on the approach to the mainland...

What I meant by my terribly phrased statement was that I believe it is offensive, not that it is directed at me. I do find it offensive for different reasons.

And yes, I know plenty about why the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Overwhelming casualties would be taken by both sides. It is still terrible, but necessary. An example that "the ends justify the means". The fierce battles of Iwo Jima and Peleliu were very lethal.

[Ironmonger]

I use a lot of supposedly offensive terms when around my friends, for example we use "faggot", "nigger", and "walrus" (we came up with that last one on accident) as terms for someone being unpleasant. If we had a black or gay member I wouldn't say it unless I knew they wouldn't be offended.

[Cptadder]

See, despite the hundreds of fine Japanese people I have known, I have never witnessed or heard a genuine account of a Japanese person being offended by the word "Jap." I have however encountered dozens of privileged young Caucasians who leapt upon it immediately and attacked those using the word for being offensive.

It's the worst kind of white knighting, taking it upon yourself to "defend" someone who doesn't care from an offense only you believe happened, and in the process basically saying that the people in question couldn't possibly stand up for themselves and obviously require a noble white man to protect them. I consider this to be much more offensive.

Well I have good news for your Sindir because I have encountered people being offended for being called a Jap because a friend of the family whose served with my grandfather in WWII did just that in a restaurant several years ago. This was a man who still firmly believed in the various Jewish conspiracies and was always blunt of speech. So that evening when he turned from our dinner table to make a point about them. I don't remember his exact words but they were along the lines of "Our country needs to be more hard working, Look at that family of Japs over there, fifty years ago they would have been back in the camps where they belonged with the rest of those un-American jap bastards during the war, today they probable own this fucking restaurant because they want to work hard unlike most of your generation". The father of the family later came over to ask him to apologize.

They were of course Korean and not Japanese and thus were highly offended to being compared to the Japanese. That's one of those things one does not pick up on unless you've lived someplace is how South Korea and Japan treat each other and why an Korean is so highly offended if you call them a Jap.

But then I think I've already told the story of how I found out about racism the bluntest way possible when I was over doing a project with a partner from middle school.

[Sindri]

Yeah, but that's not a case of Jap being an offensive word, it's closer to being a case of people with pride in their national origins being offended by being referred to as something they are not. Like when you call a Belgian French. They would have considered "japanese" just as much of an insult.

[Ketchup]

They were of course Korean and not Japanese and thus were highly offended to being compared to the Japanese. That's one of those things one does not pick up on unless you've lived someplace is how South Korea and Japan treat each other and why an Korean is so highly offended if you call them a Jap.

I've actually heard that calling someone the wrong racist slur is more offensive than the one directed towards their race. This comes from my cousin who isn't exactly the least racist guy.

[Kippershy]

They were of course Korean and not Japanese and thus were highly offended to being compared to the Japanese. That's one of those things one does not pick up on unless you've lived someplace is how South Korea and Japan treat each other and why an Korean is so highly offended if you call them a Jap.

I've actually heard that calling someone the wrong racist slur is more offensive than the one directed towards their race. This comes from my cousin who isn't exactly the least racist guy.

That's very true. My uncle in law through my mothers half sister who I never knew until I was like...9... is from some place that I can't remember any more. Anyway, he had this thing where if you thought he was from the neighbouring country from him he got really upset/angry.

Me being called a Frenchie... that would be far worse than calling me any slur against Brits.

[Ironmonger]

I had this idea for my story. At one point my group visits the old Crystal Empire and they kill a Trottoman with a unique weapon. It's a crystal-metal composite weapon that fires crystal needles via magnetic rails. Due to a lack of proper ammo , Iron Fury uses salt crystals with a bit of iron mixed in. Thoughts?

[Sindri]

I had this idea for my story. At one point my group visits the old Crystal Empire and they kill a Trottoman with a unique weapon. It's a crystal-metal composite weapon that fires crystal needles via magnetic rails. Due to a lack of proper ammo , Iron Fury uses salt crystals with a bit of iron mixed in. Thoughts?

I'm just puzzling over the purpose of the salt.

[Ironmonger]

It's optional, but the general idea was to aggravate the wound and drain moisture to prevent it from healing properly.

[Sponsored content]