Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[IncoherentOrange]

That's surprisingly accurate for a game...

Oh, Jagged Alliance 2 is a great little game, even without the mod. Will run on anything, even if it is technically unstable (crashes kind of often on new systems, some features are downright buggy, like trying to grab an enemy's weapon while they're still alive, or using stun grenades. But the mod fixes just as many bugs as it adds, so...). I'd advise picking it up. Turn-based strategy, quite fun. It also simulates wounds to a degree greater than zero (bandages will not heal wounds, but reduce accuracy penalties from being wounded and, of course, stop bleeding. Medical kits and a day or two is required to bring one of your soldiers to full readiness, less if you have more medkits and medics. Though, I'm sure it's far from being realistic, you'd know that) and has RPG elements. It's quite difficult, took me a long time to get good at, and even now it's quite challenging. Look it up.

[Guest]

@Acquisitions Inc.
Classic. I loved the first series of podcasts when they came out, and was super glad when they kept doing 'em. Totally got me interested in doing pen and paper RPGs in college.

(Currently, I'm just starting a World of Darkness game with some folks! Everyone's got a mild way to bend the game rules. We've got a mildly psychic manipulator marriage councilor slash conspiracy theorist, an archconservative ex-SEAL sniper with magical called shots, a methhead supernatural healer who needs to consume half the normal amount of calories a wound'd need to heal to repair it, and me, a desk jockey for the supernatural black ops government branch we all work for who occasionally turns into a good-natured but daft musclemonster with a sledgehammer. We're gonna stomp some aliens. Fun fact: I have Allies 3 with the accounting department; we are gonna requisition ourselves an X-wing, or at least a private jet with x-shaped wings. Also we are called the X-team, because X-men and A-team were already taken.)

[SilentCarto]

hatred of the term 'FMJ'

I hear that, I knew them as "steel core" or "armor penetrators". I only use the term FMJ since that's apparently the official term.

Ummm... that's not what FMJ means. FMJ uses a cladding of hard metal, like copper, to protect the bullet from depositing lead on the inside of the barrel, but they're generally just plain lead bullets. All penetrator rounds are jacketed by definition, but that's not what makes them AP.

And what's with the museum of miscellaneous hilarity? You go crazy trying to catch up or something? If so, don't stop.

Pretty much? I don't know how crazy I went, but that's the collected responses for the past couple of days...

[Ironmonger]

Ummm... that's not what FMJ means. FMJ uses a cladding of hard metal, like copper, to protect the bullet from depositing lead on the inside of the barrel, but they're generally just plain lead bullets. All penetrator rounds are jacketed by definition, but that's not what makes them AP.

I appreciate the correction but I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from using "Ummm..." when talking to me. Kind of a trigger word that's going to get me very aggravated very fast and I don't want to be aggravated with anyone on here. Hard to explain why it does that. Anyway I was always under the impression that Full Metal Jacket meant it was armor piercing. Only time I've heard AP was informal use.

[Ketchup]

Ummm... that's not what FMJ means. FMJ uses a cladding of hard metal, like copper, to protect the bullet from depositing lead on the inside of the barrel, but they're generally just plain lead bullets. All penetrator rounds are jacketed by definition, but that's not what makes them AP.

I appreciate the correction but I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from using "Ummm..." when talking to me. Kind of a trigger word that's going to get me very aggravated very fast and I don't want to be aggravated with anyone on here. Hard to explain why it does that. Anyway I was always under the impression that Full Metal Jacket meant it was armor piercing. Only time I've heard AP was informal use.

There are also semi-jacketed bullets, for limited benefit, and some have steel jackets. Jacketing also causes the bullet not to fragment, as per the Hague Conventions, but does not affect the capability of tumbling in the wound.

[Ametros]

I love that Mech drawing. Wish I could see it not chopped off. I can't wait till you get to the fourth and final form of Blackjack.

In other news, if everything keeps going, we'll hopefully be brushing 51 next week. Hopefully. I'm going to make it shorter than usual to make things easier on my awesome editors.

Oh! Whomever sent me a 'friendship is madness' tee shirt with ponythulu on it, thank you! ::wears it now!::

As noted by Cptadder, I believe somebody needs to draw current Blackjack yelling "This isn't even my final form!!"

[Cptadder]

Nice ideas! Of course, the "no survivors" thing could still be complicated by radio communications or a single pegasus with a stealthbuck, but that could work out too if the countermeasures fail (just start the psychological aspect a bit earlier).

However… I'm pretty sure that you meant "giant gamut." A giant gamete would be… something else.

Curse you auto-correct!
Anyway yes Radio communication complicates things except what should happen is the something like the following. The Decoy followed by the trick

Spoiler:

Yes, getting the stuff out before then would certainly be much more difficult. Zebras do have a lot of experience with the invisible infiltrator routine, though, and apparently with finding traitors, one way or another, in some high places. …But, yeah, unless they had some reason to think that this was particularly crucial, they'd probably wait for an easier time.

They would have to know it exists in the first place which is the other major problem. No one has idea but the project head exactly what your going out to do. You can make guesses but until you bring people in for a quarterly or yearly inspection it's again impossible to get anyone on the inside to start handing over secrets even if you have a dozen traitors in there because again... no inside or outside contact. At best your agents can report they are going to a new duty station to work on something magical.

Incidentally, what do you think of my concept for Profectum? Does it seem like a good idea?

What's this now, a Zebra college of learning and research facility? What about it?

Wow, you were actually a moderator for Stardestroyer.net? Though it sounds like the forums were much less cool than the actual site.

The forums are interest but less so these days, we still have excellent discussions from time to time however. And yes I moderated for them (want to know who I am? Hint same avatar and sig line) still do in the private forums. Problem was I was on the wrong side of a nasty but of board drama after the Stark drama which to be fair I did kick off. I stand by that decision even if I fucked up the execution royally. But such is life and why I stay out of board politics, I was slated to be given the admin job but I abused my mod position to try and get rid of someone I judged who exists only to make fun of other people and shit all over good ideas and run away whenever he was confronted. Even if they agreed I was right the way I went about it was horribly done and that's that.

Fun fact:I've been contacted by about five other people who post there and post here.

[Cptadder]

Yes, and they probably have a design on their weapons similar to recoiless rifles we have, because I don't think many earth ponies and pegasi would happily fire the larger caliber rifles with their teeth. They do have battle saddles, but we've seen ponies running around with shotguns and on a few occasions sniper rifles held in hooves and teeth; that would not be good for the head (aside from teeth, the jar of recoil could cause whiplash with larger calibers). I'm not talking so much about 5.56 or smaller (I've fired those from the crotch and didn't mind...don't ask), but getting up to even larger pisols like a .37 or .45 would hurt like mad.

It's been pointed out back during the giant Kkat discussion threads that pony necks are roughly four times stronger than ours are but the point about recoil is well taken and why I'm guessing the Zebra sniper position is popular with Zebras, hooves hold the gun the mouth just bites down.

Also you have to remember the ponys are a bit insulated from the recoil. They have a bite bar attached to the sides of where we would hold the handle. And Pegasi use battle-saddles or magically offset weapons to reduce the recoil to nothing. In fact I don't see the Pegasi using anything but battle-saddles and maybe a backup pistol because it's kind of hard to strap on a rifle when your flying like Calamity always is. Also why Pegesi must prefer energy weapons, no recoil.

.458 Winchester Magnum, .375 Holland & Holland, 45-70, 6.5 Grendel possibly, and 8mm Mauser could perform admirably as well. 8mm Mauser and it's relatives are extremely popular for taking down medium-to-large game. Blackjack happily (angstly?) demonstrates what a 45-70 will do to a pony, if it were a person and they took a shot to the chest it has a fair chance of gutting their heart and lungs. Big damage. For some reason I could only see ponies using 9x19 in SMG's.

Good point about the .458 Winchester and the 8mm Mauser both would work well as excellent pony sized rounds. 45-70 is on the extreme end but hey Littlepip ends some people with them so they make sense. Not familiar with .375 Holland and 6.5 Grendel I disagree with. The 6.5 Grendel is perfect for us humans but I suspect the 6.5 Grendel would be to ponies what the 5.56 NATO to us humans. Fast but the holes it knocks out are to small to be quickly lethal. Unless your bullet tumbles and tears something important you'll get cases where adrenaline fueled poines just walk through a clip and try and stab you despite being hit seven times center mass because the hits were not big enough to put you down. He'll be dead to blood loss in three minutes but that does nothing for when you kick a door in, unload the clip and the tribal on the other side is trying to cut you open with his knife because he dropped his gun running in here and he's got two good minutes of fight in him.

[CamoBadger]

Ummm... that's not what FMJ means. FMJ uses a cladding of hard metal, like copper, to protect the bullet from depositing lead on the inside of the barrel, but they're generally just plain lead bullets. All penetrator rounds are jacketed by definition, but that's not what makes them AP.

I appreciate the correction but I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from using "Ummm..." when talking to me. Kind of a trigger word that's going to get me very aggravated very fast and I don't want to be aggravated with anyone on here. Hard to explain why it does that. Anyway I was always under the impression that Full Metal Jacket meant it was armor piercing. Only time I've heard AP was informal use.

There are also semi-jacketed bullets, for limited benefit, and some have steel jackets. Jacketing also causes the bullet not to fragment, as per the Hague Conventions, but does not affect the capability of tumbling in the wound.

Bah, Hague Conventions. Too bad the only people who follow it are all allied...

[Ketchup]

As most of you probably have heard, the release of an inflammatory film has sparked civil unrest and rioting in the Middle East and elsewhere. Apparently, the actors in the film didn't even know that it would be dubbed over and become evidently insulting to Muslims. There is no reason to release such a film other than inflaming the already discriminated against Muslims. So pointless.
Any thoughts?

[SilentCarto]

There are also semi-jacketed bullets, for limited benefit, and some have steel jackets. Jacketing also causes the bullet not to fragment, as per the Hague Conventions, but does not affect the capability of tumbling in the wound.

The Hague doesn't require bullets to be designed not to fragment, just that they don't design them specifically to do so.

Personally, I've never understood why anyone would agree to laws that dictate the humane way to shoot someone.

As most of you probably have heard, the release of an inflammatory film has sparked civil unrest and rioting in the Middle East and elsewhere. Apparently, the actors in the film didn't even know that it would be dubbed over and become evidently insulting to Muslims. There is no reason to release such a film other than inflaming the already discriminated against Muslims. So pointless.
Any thoughts?

1) If someone says something about you that you don't like, the correct response is not to go burn down some other guy's building. These rioters act like Americans are all in league or something.

2) "This movie says all muslims are violent and irrational! That makes me so mad I'm gonna blow up a building!" Great job proving them wrong, guys...

[Ketchup]

There are also semi-jacketed bullets, for limited benefit, and some have steel jackets. Jacketing also causes the bullet not to fragment, as per the Hague Conventions, but does not affect the capability of tumbling in the wound.

The Hague doesn't require bullets to be designed not to fragment, just that they don't design them specifically to do so.

Personally, I've never understood why anyone would agree to laws that dictate the humane way to shoot someone.

Kind of silly, isn't it?
On a somewhat related note, bullets that have armor piercing abilities don't produce as severe wounds, and a wounded soldier takes up more resources in the short term to the enemy than a dead one. Many militaries tend not to leave wounded men where they fall.
Oh, and thanks for that correction.

[CamoBadger]

As most of you probably have heard, the release of an inflammatory film has sparked civil unrest and rioting in the Middle East and elsewhere. Apparently, the actors in the film didn't even know that it would be dubbed over and become evidently insulting to Muslims. There is no reason to release such a film other than inflaming the already discriminated against Muslims. So pointless.
Any thoughts?

"tribal battles prompted by the arrival of a comet on Earth."
...change the last word a little...and your brain will break...

[CamoBadger]

There are also semi-jacketed bullets, for limited benefit, and some have steel jackets. Jacketing also causes the bullet not to fragment, as per the Hague Conventions, but does not affect the capability of tumbling in the wound.

The Hague doesn't require bullets to be designed not to fragment, just that they don't design them specifically to do so.

Personally, I've never understood why anyone would agree to laws that dictate the humane way to shoot someone.

Israel says 'hi' (if you don't know why I bring this up, they developed a bullet a few years back which is designed to shatter inside the body and ricochet around inside)

I don't get it either, people make stupid laws sometimes...

[Ketchup]

Israel says 'hi' (if you don't know why I bring this up, they developed a bullet a few years back which is designed to shatter inside the body and ricochet around inside)

Ouch. Can has link?

[FeatherDust]

There are also semi-jacketed bullets, for limited benefit, and some have steel jackets. Jacketing also causes the bullet not to fragment, as per the Hague Conventions, but does not affect the capability of tumbling in the wound.

Bah, Hague Conventions. Too bad the only people who follow it are all allied...

Yeah, I also like how the Hague Conventions outlaw for warfare the types of bullets that police prefer. Something is wrong with this picture.

I mean, really, what's the logic here? "You can shoot at the other guys, but don't use bullets designed to kill or incapacitate most efficiently!"

Personally, I've never understood why anyone would agree to laws that dictate the humane way to shoot someone.

Yeah. That.

[Ketchup]

There are also semi-jacketed bullets, for limited benefit, and some have steel jackets. Jacketing also causes the bullet not to fragment, as per the Hague Conventions, but does not affect the capability of tumbling in the wound.

Bah, Hague Conventions. Too bad the only people who follow it are all allied...

Yeah, I also like how the Hague Conventions outlaw for warfare the types of bullets that police prefer. Something is wrong with this picture.

I mean, really, what's the logic here? "You can shoot at the other guys, but don't use bullets designed to kill or incapacitate most efficiently!"

I've noted that too.

[FeatherDust]

Israel says 'hi' (if you don't know why I bring this up, they developed a bullet a few years back which is designed to shatter inside the body and ricochet around inside)

Ouch. Can has link?

Here's a story about it.

The story seems to be anti-israel, but I find the arguments rather unconvincing. Particularly in light of the israeli comment -- "We don't shoot live bullets when nobody’s shooting at us."

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/shoot_to_maim.html

I mean, I'm heavily along stance that if you are opening fire on a living human being, you are INTENDING to kill that person. If the shot causes anything less than death, the target should be thankful that they are not, in fact, dead.

[CamoBadger]

Israel says 'hi' (if you don't know why I bring this up, they developed a bullet a few years back which is designed to shatter inside the body and ricochet around inside)

Ouch. Can has link?

Here's a story about it.

The story seems to be anti-israel, but I find the arguments rather unconvincing. Particularly in light of the israeli comment -- "We don't shoot live bullets when nobody’s shooting at us."

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/shoot_to_maim.html

I mean, I'm heavily along stance that if you are opening fire on a living human being, you are INTENDING to kill that person. If the shot causes anything less than death, the target should be thankful that they are not, in fact, dead.

I agree, which is why I don't understand any anti-bullet laws. "You are shooting at this person to kill, but you aren't allowed to use bullets that will kill them faster, because if they don't die it will hurt more." Methinks people making these laws haven't been shot before. I doubt the person getting shot gives a shit what kind of bullet it is, that shit hurts.

[CamoBadger]

Where's Kipper? I just now noticed you passed 1000 posts recently.
*shoves him into the taint bath*
WELCOME TO THE UNITY

[222222]

@middle east unrest: I'm sure much of the rioting was caused by the video, but I've heard some convincing things suggesting the attack on the embassy was being planned long before the video was released. I haven't looked too much into it but basically the argument is the people who attacked the embassy where too well armed and organized to be spur of the moment rioters. Has anybody else heard this argument?

Edit: also, a few stupid Americans make a stupid video, then a few stupid Muslims have a stupid riot. Not all Americans support the video, I would say most don't, and not all Muslims support the riots, again most don't.

[Kippershy]

Don't encourage me. You don't need to see tinfoil hat me.

[IncoherentOrange]

Maybe the Palestinians shouldn't pick fights with the IDF. I mean, seriously, what do they expect if they're throwing rocks at them? For them to throw rocks back? That solves nothing, and is just stupid. Basically, they're saying,
"I was throwing rocks at them and didn't stop when they asked so they shot me! Bastards!"
Why we can't all get along, or at least get along without killing each other, is something I wonder. There's a plethora of reasons, and most of them simply don't make sense.

[CamoBadger]

Maybe the Palestinians shouldn't pick fights with the IDF. I mean, seriously, what do they expect if they're throwing rocks at them? For them to throw rocks back? That solves nothing, and is just stupid. Basically, they're saying,
"I was throwing rocks at them and didn't stop when they asked so they shot me! Bastards!"
Why we can't all get along, or at least get along without killing each other, is something I wonder. There's a plethora of reasons, and most of them simply don't make sense.

They feel oppressed, downtrodden, threatened. They are trying to stand up for themselves. They consider what they are doing to be justified, so they attack inasmuch as they are able, then suffer since the fight they're engaging in is hardly fair.
I'm not sure you should really judge without knowing more about their lives.
I'm not saying anything could make their behavior the "right" course of action, but they certainly aren't just doing this stuff due to being stupid or something.

This is true. They have a warped sense of it, but they do believe they're oppressed and need to fight back (for the most part. Some of them just hate Israel because that is their Holy Land and it was actually taken from them and given to the Israelis). Their method of fighting is pretty disgusting, but it's really the only way they can fight. They know they can't go toe to toe with the Israeli Defense Force, because they would get stomped into nothing.
I don't blame them for their anger, I would be pissed if my land was stolen (even though they are allowed to go live there...) and given to another group of people, but if they would TRY to be civil, I doubt these problems would be as numerous, if even at all around. However, human nature dictates that we can't do that, sharing isn't acceptable. (Listen up kids, this is important! Your parents are wrong...)

[IncoherentOrange]

I was just saying that fighting them is a bad idea, since they are--and they know it--hopelessly outgunned. I don't blame them for their anger either, but to be violent against a force like the IDF is almost like asking to get hurt. I feel bad for both parties.

[Cptadder]

Guys please take a bit of advice, the Israel v Palestine discussion is nothing but sorrow. Remember that board I mentioned before? There is only one topic banned for discussion there and that's IvP because and I quote/

Both sides stated goal is the removal from the other from Israel
Both sides have done terrible things to each other over the millennium.
Both sides have committed atrocities and violated the Geneva convention numerous times and both sides refuse to admit anything of the sort.
And finally both sides have hordes of unthinking supporters who may be perfectly nice and pleasant people on most subjects but on IvP they tend to go crazy

So we won't be talking about it here, there is no valid discussion here, both sides are bastards and it will all end in tears anyway.

I could go on about the five key factors in the IvP situation, detail exactly why America politicians of both parties happily say that they would put Israels interests ahead of America. I could talk about various current Palestinian government and the fact that kids TV shows contain such valuable lessons as Palestine can not come to be until there are no more Jews. I could talk about the effect of the Ultra orthodox Jewish section of Israel and status (or total lack there of) of women in that community. I could talk about the ten major world governments from the British to the UN who all are pulling Israel six different ways, the history of broken promises on both sides the....

You know what forget all that, both sides are bastards, there's nothing to be gained from a six page history lesson when the end result is "Everyone's a bastard, no one is acting in good faith and both sides believe the other side wants them removed from existence so peace is impossible without a neutral third party that does not exist"

[IncoherentOrange]

You're right, Adder. It's a mess, and it ain't going to fix itself. Sadly, nobody with enough power is willing to fix it for them. When--or if--it fizzles out, so much will have been lost and so little will have been gained. Just a great, big mess.

[O. Hinds]

Nice ideas! Of course, the "no survivors" thing could still be complicated by radio communications or a single pegasus with a stealthbuck, but that could work out too if the countermeasures fail (just start the psychological aspect a bit earlier).

However… I'm pretty sure that you meant "giant gamut." A giant gamete would be… something else.

Curse you auto-correct!
Anyway yes Radio communication complicates things except what should happen is the something like the following. The Decoy followed by the trick

Spoiler:

Sonic rainbooms are pretty distinctive; how do you propose hiding the evidence that one just went off?

Yes, getting the stuff out before then would certainly be much more difficult. Zebras do have a lot of experience with the invisible infiltrator routine, though, and apparently with finding traitors, one way or another, in some high places. …But, yeah, unless they had some reason to think that this was particularly crucial, they'd probably wait for an easier time.

They would have to know it exists in the first place which is the other major problem. No one has idea but the project head exactly what your going out to do. You can make guesses but until you bring people in for a quarterly or yearly inspection it's again impossible to get anyone on the inside to start handing over secrets even if you have a dozen traitors in there because again... no inside or outside contact. At best your agents can report they are going to a new duty station to work on something magical.

Yeah, okay, I can see that. …Though I'm still not actually sure that it would be that difficult, as I'm not sure that Equestria would go about it in that way. They may very well have just used a research center in Hoofington.

Incidentally, what do you think of my concept for Profectum? Does it seem like a good idea?

What's this now, a Zebra college of learning and research facility? What about it?

Well, I do have it becoming a university (both teaching and R&D) at some point postapocalypse, but during the war it was more or less a very big and diverse version of the sort of research center you described. It's built in the middle of a desert, as you can see on the map, the flow of anything out was very carefully controlled, and the flow of materials and personnel in was likewise controlled and kept to a minimum. I'm using pretty free information flow in, though, and very free information flow within (ie, the scientists and even the security staff are not only permitted but to an extent encouraged to talk to each other about what they're doing, in the hope that this will lead to ideas that otherwise wouldn't have been thought of). Oh, in case you don't remember me talking about Profectum at all, it was basically the Zebra counterpart to Hoofington in the area of R&D

[Cptadder]

You're right, Adder. It's a mess, and it ain't going to fix itself. Sadly, nobody with enough power is willing to fix it for them. When--or if--it fizzles out, so much will have been lost and so little will have been gained. Just a great, big mess.

Again I'm not going into it but there are at least four countries who benefit from the continued unrest. Sadly we are one of them. (The other countries are everyone not directly aligned with us in case your wondering).
We (As in our politicians) benefit from it as love of Israel is an easy path to tons of money from the American Jewish community as well as the American Fundamentalist community who holds a blind support of Israel as a precondition to even offering any support what so ever. So our politicos fight each other to say who loves Israel the most because anyone who comes out and says they support the Palestinians will be jumped on by the ADA and other groups. So the calculation is, you love Israel? Fine here's 50,000 dollars, don't like Israel? Okay here's the five million dollars we will be going to give to your opponent.

On the other hand other governments use Israel to point out big bad America and how it helps keep the poor Palestinians down (Never mind the only thing Palestine gets from 90% of governments who use them is the odd photo op) and you need to trust us or American's going to come here and take our land and give it away so trust us. The same way the Castros have been using America for fifty years now... the same way we use Castro. There's still a lot of that going around in the world. Trust us to protect you from X because trust us if you don't X is gonna get you.

[Cptadder]

Sonic rainbooms are pretty distinctive; how do you propose hiding the evidence that one just went off?

Simple distance, Rainbooms are very distinctive but they fade over time. Based on curvature of the planet your looking at a max range of oh thirty miles? Also doing it at night or simialar low visibility conditions could help or better still out over water.

Yeah, okay, I can see that. …Though I'm still not actually sure that it would be that difficult, as I'm not sure that Equestria would go about it in that way. They may very well have just used a research center in Hoofington.

Rainbooms are explosive, why the heck would you test out a high yield explosive weapon anywhere near a city? Or worse near a cloud city? No any kind of Rainboom generator research center is going to be in a remote location.

Well, I do have it becoming a university (both teaching and R&D) at some point postapocalypse, but during the war it was more or less a very big and diverse version of the sort of research center you described. It's built in the middle of a desert, as you can see on the map, the flow of anything out was very carefully controlled, and the flow of materials and personnel in was likewise controlled and kept to a minimum. I'm using pretty free information flow in, though, and very free information flow within (ie, the scientists and even the security staff are not only permitted but to an extent encouraged to talk to each other about what they're doing, in the hope that this will lead to ideas that otherwise wouldn't have been thought of). Oh, in case you don't remember me talking about Profectum at all, it was basically the Zebra counterpart to Hoofington in the area of R&D

I have no concerns with that, we have a few research facilities in the desert of our own after all like infamous Area 51 for example.

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