Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Valikdu]

Got into Diablo 3 after 2 hours. Tip: end the updater process to go through retrieving hero list.

Some points for my initial impression (haven't been following any previews)
-WoW looked better at launch, in 2004.
-No more attributes, why?
-Still.... kinda... fun.

[CamoBadger]

I just want the servers to be fixed...sadly still 50 minutes until they open it back up...

ALSO! You can log in right now, but you cannot actually play the game...freakin' trolls at Blizzard, makin' us wait so long for this game then having their servers die...

[Guest]

I'm sorry sorry for the delay... this chapter has been cursed. Just cursed. Every time I try and make some headway, something pops up to kill it. It isn't even the longest chapter ever! I mean if I were doing a ch37 or something, sure. But this is just crazy.

Anyway, barring disasters, we should finish brushing it tomorrow. I am so so very sorry for this.

It's alright Somber, We don't mind waiting just take all the time you need it's always worth the wait.

@NMM(Thread split) No Idea I was playing D3 at the time.

@Ketchup and NMM (D3 Maintenance)
It's good to hear that you can log on right now. Last night it took me almost an hour to log on.

@D3
If any of y'all played/playing what class did y'all pick? I've going as a demon hunter and I think they're pretty fun so far.

[CamoBadger]

@D3
If any of y'all played/playing what class did y'all pick? I've going as a demon hunter and I think they're pretty fun so far.

I was playing Witch Doctor, it's enjoyable so far.

[Ketchup]

The Demon Hunter looks awesome, but my brother wants to be one, so I'm going Wizard. My friend wants to be Barbarian, so if we play together we will have variety.
Maybe when Blizzard gets their shit together, we can play.

[Guest]

Am I the only one here that agreed with what Goldenblood did, and what Red Eye was/is doing?
I'm personally in the group that believes the Ends always justify the Means, and the two of them were doing everything they could to make Equestria a better place, or in Goldenblood's case, to end the war. They've taken the weight of all of those sins, and held them on their own shoulders so that others may live on in a better world than what there already was. Again, just my own opinions, and in no way showing the opinions of Cloudsville, the New Lunar Republic, or any other community as a whole.
(initiating arguments in 5...4...)
That's what I'm waiting on too

Random agrees with you, I know that, and I think Sindri does to at least a certain extent. I agree that the ends justify the means, but only after the fact. When you start doing wrong in pursuit of what's right, you'd better be damn sure that your "end" is actually gonna come about... and because Shit Happens, it's worthwhile to have a moral code of some sort anyways. Red Eye was a fool to think that he could ever create the Equestria he envisioned; it relied too much on him being infallible and everyone else being moronic, weak, and predictable. Most plans of well-intentioned extremists do; this is why they fail. And he did fail; and thus, there was no silver lining to his evils. Doesn't matter that he had a plan to do good; there's always a better way (speaking from a non-deterministic, pretending-free-will-actually-exists standpoint).

And the better way is mind-altering substances and surgeries! (I keep telling myself to stop getting involved in conversations in which I might have to talk about free will, but it just. Keeps. Happening. )

@Somber
It's kay, we're cool with waiting over here! Maybe I can actually finish the re-read of PH before the new chapter comes out now! (If I do nothing else from now until then but read!) (Also, why am I typing everything in an ebullient shout despite not having had any coffee today?!)

[Ketchup]

Looks like they are done... I just got a patch.
Edit playing now.

[Guest]

Cool, I'm gonna go hop on now!

[Somber]

Can't even get the set up to run so I can download the game... it just keeps updating and updating and updating for hours on end... sigh... First ME3's ending and now this...

[Kattlarv]

@NMM: Yeah, I've been told I'm a bunch more resilient than most "normal" people.

And yeah, it just seems to be a "spoiler" thing, but without the button.

Tbh, I tried to figure it out, but went "meh" and fed my gecko instead.

And I've accidentally scared a few people before hehe.

@Ketchup: I do? I can't recall talking about my pride before... that much... at all...? Or have I? I have an awful memory.

@Silent: (Thread lock) ... not really? I'm thicker than a brick wall xD And wouldn't NMM have pointed out if it was that greatly against the ToS? ... or someone else that knows the terms?

Point still comes back to the "Why?" question. And from what I can recall, the snippets have kinda been "They meet for the first time -> they are a couple > had sex > had foal > broke up", and each step is an extreme leap imo. And as for those two, they came in as an object, plus it is the wasteland now, it wasn't back then. You were allowed to have standards (or at least more of it) and whatnot back then. And the enclave promotes same sex relations as it means less to feed. I actually have commented on most pairings. GloryJack and Priest-21 were both kind of "wasteland dates", aka: fast paced, as said, in the wastes, there's not really enough safety nor time to do it properly. Which can be argued against with that it would be just the reason to take it slow. But anyhow, as said, those two came in as more of a "hey, we're bucking each other!". GoldenShy came out of no-where with a background of Fluttershy being semi-confirmed as "lonely", frustrated and hurting. (if I recall the memory orb of Angel correctly... which could be added as an after-effect of said relation, but anyhow in PH specifics, she was doing this and that, same went for golden then just BAM, "hey, we're having sex now." almost of out of nowhere. And yeah, she was shown caring for him, but heck, she did that to everypony.

And I agree he can be seen as good, it was just that that particular part seemed to overdo it just a tad bit much hehe xP
Plus, with Pip, it was a "choose or die", as the Enclave was coming in. Kind of the ending of a bad action movie, except not bad xD (basically the "give us the bomb so we can kill you all by blowing you up, or I will kill your wife!" one) And in that case, I do have to say he choose Fluttershy over the world, as he went through with all that and even impregnated her. Or went halfway, then after going halfway changed his mind and abandoned her, leaning towards "unintentional abuse". Since no matter the intentions, he did use her, then discard her, pretty much.

@NMM: (end justifies the means) I partially agree. I agree with the concept, to a certain degree. Both did a lot of unnecessary collateral damage, either by being lazy, short sighted or other stuff. The "It has to be done" parts, yes, that I can agree with, but tossing in the "extra, unnecessary parts" are just crossing the line. Both did this repetitive times to either save time, or cuz they cba to do it properly.

@Ketchup: Are you a wizard? xD

Edit: Oh, and as usual people, if you want to chit-chat or ask about anything, feel free to drop me a mail/note :P

[CamoBadger]

I think ketchup is cheating...it won't go past the "Retrieving Hero List" stage for me...

[Valikdu]

Can't even get the set up to run so I can download the game... it just keeps updating and updating and updating for hours on end... sigh... First ME3's ending and now this...

Just... don't go in expecting too much, or you'll probably be disappointed. It wasn't made by the same people who did D1 and D2, there's already a ton of angry reviews, and from what little I've seen the gameplay has been "modernized" (as in simplified). And it's expected to run on a rusted programmable calculator, like WoW, so the graphics are... ehm... let's say they'd look good at the time when WoW was released, which was in 2004.

It's still... kinda... fun.

[Guest]

I think ketchup is cheating...it won't go past the "Retrieving Hero List" stage for me...

So that's happening to you too. I thought I was the only one for second. Ketchup are you using your wizard magic to get on?

@Kim
What meant by the Nightingale effect was that the patient(Goldenblood) falls in love with the care taker(Fluttershy), sorry for the lack of a proper explanation I was really tired when I was typing that.

[Valikdu]

I think ketchup is cheating...it won't go past the "Retrieving Hero List" stage for me...

So that's happening to you too. I thought I was the only one for second. Ketchup are you using your wizard magic to get on?

End process "Updater something". That got me through.

[CamoBadger]

I think ketchup is cheating...it won't go past the "Retrieving Hero List" stage for me...

So that's happening to you too. I thought I was the only one for second. Ketchup are you using your wizard magic to get on?

End process "Updater something". That got me through.

You're a wizard...I can now play...but it deleted my character...

[O. Hinds]

It's not that google docs doesn't work it's the stupid app they have, no font size or zoom option and half the time accessing the non app version kicks me to the general list of documents. As to copying it over I'm willing to do the leg work if you all allow. :3

Couldn't you just download the chapters from Gdocs and load them on your device instead? If you really want me to ask Somber and the others, I will, but I don't think that the chances of approval are high; apart from everything else, the copy on FIMFiction would have to be marked as unofficial and unsupported (in other words, if you made a fan port, we'd have no responsibility for it).

Calm down! No need to panic. We got a good 991 posts in the previous thread. If we do end up with a bunch of threads, then the admins here would probably just stick them all in a PH-specific sub-folder.

Hm… Nice idea! I was worried about the introductory stuff at the start of the old thread getting left behind, but this would take care of that. We'd just need a note at the top of the folder instructing people to go to the front of the oldest thread for an introduction. Speaking of which, has anyone updated the EQD thread with the new information yet? We don't want new readers to arrive in a locked thread and give up before finding this one.

Secondly: Arglebargle! Warn me if we change thread!

Sorry; none of us were expecting it.

Can't even get the set up to run so I can download the game... it just keeps updating and updating and updating for hours on end... sigh... First ME3's ending and now this...

Just... don't go in expecting too much, or you'll probably be disappointed. It wasn't made by the same people who did D1 and D2, there's already a ton of angry reviews, and from what little I've seen the gameplay has been "modernized" (as in simplified). And it's expected to run on a rusted programmable calculator, like WoW, so the graphics are... ehm... let's say they'd look good at the time when WoW was released, which was in 2004.

It's still... kinda... fun.

Yeah, my dad was in the beta and really wasn't impressed.

[Guest]

Calm down! No need to panic. We got a good 991 posts in the previous thread. If we do end up with a bunch of threads, then the admins here would probably just stick them all in a PH-specific sub-folder.

Hm… Nice idea! I was worried about the introductory stuff at the start of the old thread getting left behind, but this would take care of that. We'd just need a note at the top of the folder instructing people to go to the front of the oldest thread for an introduction. Speaking of which, has anyone updated the EQD thread with the new information yet? We don't want new readers to arrive in a locked thread and give up before finding this one.

No, not yet - we might do well to send a note to Seth, asking him to link it in the actual post, since not everyone actually reads the comments before posting one themselves.

[WavemasterRyx]

Can't even get the set up to run so I can download the game... it just keeps updating and updating and updating for hours on end... sigh... First ME3's ending and now this...

Alright, I can live with not being able to play (the demo pass someone gave me from buying it themselves), but not letting Somber play - that is a CRIME, Blizzard! You monsters...

[Ketchup]

Well sorry for making you guys feel bad for being able to access the game, but if it makes you feel better, the servers are down again.
:C

[Kattlarv]

@Guard: I think I got that, and my point was still that he in such case, still choose to go after her, despite knowing it wouldn't work out. (or hoped it somehow could, or did it for whatever alternator motive.)

@O.Hinds: Yeah, it seemed to be a sneak attack, and everypony was flat-footed.

[Ketchup]

@Ketchup: I do? I can't recall talking about my pride before... that much... at all...? Or have I? I have an awful memory.

Not exactly, just the general subject.

[Sindri]

Am I the only one here that agreed with what Goldenblood did, and what Red Eye was/is doing?

Definitely not the only one. You should probably take a look through Random's askredeye tumblr. Personally I think Red Eye started out as a big damn hero but over the course of decades of frustration and lack of progress he allowed his methods to become extreme enough and his minions to operate with little enough oversight that he was almost as bad as what he was fighting in the first place, and I don't have much faith in his Thanatos Gambit at the end there, but I can't deny that he was the most successful at actually building something good in the Wasteland until the Gardens and the SPP came along.

As for Goldenblood... I really don't know yet. He's done evil things, but he clearly regrets them. He hurts those he loves, but seems to truly believe it to be for the greater good. He seems absolutely loyal and absolutely disobedient at the same time, serving Luna by betraying her. He did something to hurt Fluttershy terribly, but we have no idea what or why. He's just good enough at covering his tracks, and just secretive enough that we see little bits of hist story with no context or motivation. I can't tell if he's a tragic hero who unwittingly destroyed all that he loved, a well-intentioned extremist who did what he could to make things better at great personal cost and cost to those near to him, or a complete monster who destroyed his nation seduced Fluttershy and dropped her, and killed everypony he claimed to love.
It certainly doesn't help that all the snippets we've seen of his actions are so... conveniently placed. As if someone was picking and choosing what we saw of him to leave us with a specific impression.

[SilentCarto]

Am I the only one here that agreed with what Goldenblood did, and what Red Eye was/is doing?
I'm personally in the group that believes the Ends always justify the Means, and the two of them were doing everything they could to make Equestria a better place, or in Goldenblood's case, to end the war. They've taken the weight of all of those sins, and held them on their own shoulders so that others may live on in a better world than what there already was. Again, just my own opinions, and in no way showing the opinions of Cloudsville, the New Lunar Republic, or any other community as a whole.

There's a post by Escher from the FOE comments that addresses this. I'll just reprint it in full here, since it says it as well as I could.

"Of course you [found yourself agreeing with Red Eye]. That's the point -- he's not wrong in his intent, but he's going about it the wrong way. Cruelty can't make the world a better place because it's teaching all the wrong lessons.

Instead of "we can make the world better if we work together and treat each other with kindness and understanding", RedEye teaches "we can make the world better by enslaving and using each other". Instead of appealing to their better nature, RedEye appeals to the lowest instincts with things like gladiatorial combat as entertainment. Instead of teaching "we must work hard to be better than our worst impulses, especially when things are darkest", RedEye teaches "when the going gets tough, it's okay to throw away all morality and become a monster For The Greater Good".

That's the difference between being the "villain of the piece" and being an actual villain. The former is somebody doing the right thing when it's unpopular; the latter is doing the wrong thing in hopes that the results can justify it."

I want to add that "the ends justifies the means" relies on the actor having a clear sense of which ends are worth it. To quote George Bernard Shaw, "We've already established what you are, ma'am. Now we're just haggling over the price." How much money is morality worth? What's the value of a life? Maybe Red Eye has a clear idea. Maybe Goldie does. What about their children? What about theirs? How many generations does it take for "in extremis" to devolve to "whenever it's convenient"? It's a corrosive lesson to embed into their society's history.

And remember, this isn't something you can just shrug and say, "Well, he was a bad guy." He's also the part of the new God that raises the sun every single morning, and has the tacit approval of the part of the God that's handing down your laws.

[NoodleNugget]

Am I the only one here that agreed with what Goldenblood did, and what Red Eye was/is doing?
I'm personally in the group that believes the Ends always justify the Means, and the two of them were doing everything they could to make Equestria a better place, or in Goldenblood's case, to end the war. They've taken the weight of all of those sins, and held them on their own shoulders so that others may live on in a better world than what there already was. Again, just my own opinions, and in no way showing the opinions of Cloudsville, the New Lunar Republic, or any other community as a whole.
(initiating arguments in 5...4...)

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
If the ends would justify the means, that would make Goldenblood/Red Eye no better if not worse than the ministry mares, and look what happened because of them.

Nothing should ever come down to arithmetic when it concerns another living being. We/They are not machines, we/they are not cold heartless beings who only count. we/they are living breathing, feeling, beings who can love, who can hate, who can pity and can praise. We/they laugh and cry. We/they feel pain. We/they feel pleasure. We/they struggle to survive each day and by some miracle we/they do.

We/they are not numbers.

We/they are not robots.

[SilentCarto]

We/they are not numbers.

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered! My life is my own!

(Oh, and Sweetie Bot is best sentient organic being.)

[Guest]

We/they are not numbers.

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered! My life is my own!

(Oh, and Sweetie Bot is best sentient organic being.)

I am not a number! I am a free man!

[NoodleNugget]

glad to have been taken seriously.
oh well.
how has everyone's day been?

[jacky2734]

Am I the only one here that agreed with what Goldenblood did, and what Red Eye was/is doing?
I'm personally in the group that believes the Ends always justify the Means, and the two of them were doing everything they could to make Equestria a better place, or in Goldenblood's case, to end the war. They've taken the weight of all of those sins, and held them on their own shoulders so that others may live on in a better world than what there already was. Again, just my own opinions, and in no way showing the opinions of Cloudsville, the New Lunar Republic, or any other community as a whole.
(initiating arguments in 5...4...)
That's what I'm waiting on too

I'm all for "end justifying means" as long as it's the means to the appropriate end.
I'm still holding my opinion of Goldenblood and his methods back until we actually find out what end he was working to.
As far as Redeye goes though, can you honestly say that the end he was working towards was truly for the best. To coin a phrase, Utopia cannot be built on the backs of slaves. Even if his plan had succeeded, it would have turned Equestria into a complete distopia, with the prior generation being worked to death and the future generations being brainwashed. All the while, being ruled by an abomination who had control of the very sky.

[MrMagma]

glad to have been taken seriously.
oh well.
how has everyone's day been?

Well, my day has only lasted 24 minutes so far. No opinion can be gathered from such pitiful data.

[Sindri]

Nothing should ever come down to arithmetic when it concerns another living being.

See, that's a nice ideal. And you're right, you never should resort to arithmetic to determine who lives or who dies, because you should never be in such a situation. But the world is cruel and imperfect, and the Wasteland doubly so.
If you refuse to sacrifice one innocent life regardless of circumstances, because there are no ends that justify those means, then in the Wastes at best you'll accomplish nothing and at worst you'll get hundreds or thousands of good, innocent people killed. Is that better, because you stuck to your principles and the one innocent you were looking at is okay? Does the end of sticking to those principles justify the means of causing hundreds or thousands to die?

If you are given the choice between one innocent life and a hundred innocent lives, can you call yourself good when you choose one over many? If, like Red Eye, you see a choice between allowing countless thousands to suffer and die in the wasteland, or killing hundreds and enslaving thousands so that tens of thousands more can live in peace and prosperity, with a chance of even rebuilding the world so that the death and slavery would no longer be required eventually, which would you choose?

I do not agree with Red Eye's methods; there were better ways to go about the same goals, more efficiently and without any needless cruelty, and he seems to have eventually allowed things to get worse out of sheer inattention or laziness. But as much as I hate to admit it, I can't disagree with his original decision.

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