Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

[Katarn]

You tell me...:

[Vinylshadow]

Kids today...:

[Guest]

@Frost
I definitely agree that climbing could be a very cool addition to the games. Hell, just re-introduce the old movement skills and incorporate it, alongside sprint-jumps, higher jumping, maybe water-running as a perk. I'd love seeing movement options available along the lines of the most recent Tomb Raider game, personally - I thought that they felt very fluid and weren't too restrictive or linear, though I'd hope that Bethesda could do an even better job. Maybe some sort of animation system using climbing picks that automatically parallels your character model with the surface they're moving on. They'd definitely want a newer engine again, though, the Skyrim one's still really stiff. Characters too often don't feel like they're actually present in the world, usually due to animation clipping and the lack of physics except when you get knocked over.

I'd also like them to bring back some of the more complicated character creation stuff, but they do seem to be dodging away from that whenever possible. I liked having daggers, swords, axes, and maces all differentiated from one another - it let you define the kind of melee weapon-user your character was, rather than swapping between whatever the best ball of stats was at a given time. Differentiation in the perk trees between one- and two-handed versions of the weapons would be better IMO than the current, opposite version. Oh, and bring back throwing weapons.

[Ironmonger]

Well, I'm sorta addicted to Civ 5, now. I'm really liking the Ottomans because they're so geared towards blowing shit up.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Once it gets on discount, you should look toward trying Civilization: Beyond Earth. It's pretty great, and I find the combat whole damn gameplay is actually smoother than Civ 5.

There's a free demo on steam.

[Guest]

Well, I'm sorta addicted to Civ 5, now. I'm really liking the Ottomans because they're so geared towards blowing shit up.

Really liked playing Civ 5, even though I was pretty bad at it. I'm dabbling in Endless Legend, which seems similar except with a fantasy theme and a sort of Warcraft 3-style Hero system, along with a damn good UI and gorgeous art. (Also, the Endless universe seems pretty cool, and I like how they're using it for a broad spectrum of games, including the super cool tower defense/roguelike dungeon crawler hybrid Endless Dungeon) When I was in Civ 5, I think I always liked playing as the Arabians. The double oil was always very entertaining, and having a crapton of gold from trade routes was cool. (Like I said - not actually good at the game, just entertained by it :P)

[Ironmonger]

I just checked out Endless Legend, and I must say that it does look pretty interesting.

Civ 5 is one of those games that's always better with mods, and the great thing is that they work with multiplayer. 

Another fun series, if you have the patience for it, is the Total War games. They're like Civ 5, but they take place in a specific era, there's real-time combat when initiated, and they feel more authentic. They're also like XCOM in that they can be rage-inducing at times.

Edited because I apparently can't words today.

[Scienza]

@Climbing

Going beyond just climbing, what I'd like to see in TES would be a better implementation of verticality in combat. Looking at it from a historical perspective, if you had the high-ground, you fucking owned your opponents. Their archers and ground troops couldn't do shit, while your archers could tear them to shreds. Skyrim had a bit of that (archers in keeps, dragon fights are like ninety-percent easier when they land), but there isn't that much else involving that aspect of tactics. Implementing some form of this (even something as simple as adding a damage bonus like in Inquisition) would add a lot to immersion and spicing up what increasingly grows to be very tedious combat over the course of the game.

Also, if there are grappling hooks, there's something that's incredibly silly and unrealistic that I want implemented. Inquisition had a rogue skill that allows you to use a grappling hook to fling yourself bodily at an enemy. That is incredibly fucking fun and I want it.

[Vinylshadow]

Didn't Bioshock Infinite let you leap through the air and gore enemies on your skyhook thing?


-
Elsewhere...

Spoiler:

The writers did not think that through

[Guest]

@Iron
I've heard good things about Total War - when I get an RTS itch again, I'll look them up. Definitely true that the Civ games have always sort of struggled with combat and realism-feeling stuff. Endless Legend works on the combat a bit by turning it into a sort of Final Fantasy Tactics-style system when two armies clash, letting them set up a small battle line and duke it out that way. It's not flawless, since the initiative system can screw you up, but it does make things seem a bit more engaging, which is nice.

@Sci
I know part of the reason Skyrim mods haven't included things like location-based damage, which would add to the advantage of being higher up, is because NPCs can't really be programmed to slash for the head so it just makes combat easier for the player. Hopefully a new engine will come with much better AI and animations so that sort of thing can be modeled. This could also help the issue of companion usefulness, since right now they still tend to sprint into your sword strikes and stuff. Making them more positioning-aware would help.

[Ironmonger]

Total War has notoriously derpy AI and some slight balance issues; it's definitely better with mods. I use Darthmod for Empire, and Stainless Steel for Medieval 2. That said, the franchise is still extremely fun if you go into it with the right mindset. One of the things I find amusing about Empire is that the advisors are rather calm and dismissive about pretty morbid things.

[Frost]

In dealing with varied weapon types--also bring spears back. Both in two-handed and paired-with-a shield configurations. Hand-and-a-half swords (equippable with one or two hands) would be also fun and conducive to a slimming-down of the inventory system.

Also, in terms of companion AI overhall; stealth-focused companions. I remember playing through the goddamn Thieves' Guild quest, and being paired with two Nightingales that, at the first hint of the detection meter breaking zero (nowhere near detection; just searching) would go screaming into combat.

[Scienza]

Create a companion that just runs around putting baskets over all your enemies heads, allowing unlimited sneak attacks.

[Guest]

@Frost
Totally on board with spears. Frickin' spear lizard was my first character in Morrowind. I'd honestly like them to bring back the obscene armor customization you could get in Morrowind, too (as in, down to choosing left pauldron and all that and clothing underneath armor), but I realize that'd necessitate a major overhaul of the custom enchantments system, which I also like.

@Sci
Yes, this.

[Frost]

The equipment on the level of Morrowind is what I'm talking about when I mention more wardrobe choices in Fallout. I'd personally be happy ES-wise with a return to Ovlivion's option of letting you choose your damn pants. 

Also, hair past collar-length.

[Vinylshadow]

I'm also still waiting for sexy +100 Defense armor for males

Why do women get ridiculously skimpy outfits while burly men hide all their glorious rippling muscles glistening with just the right amount of sweat to be sexy under layers of ugly metal armor?

Yes, clearly we need a game where character customization can take upwards of three hours (and that's while speed-running it)

Would you like your nose powdered or unpowdered?

[Scienza]

I'm also still waiting for sexy +100 Defense armor for males

Why do women get ridiculously skimpy outfits while burly men hide all their glorious rippling muscles glistening with just the right amount of sweat to be sexy under layers of ugly metal armor?

Chainmail speedos plz.

Yes, clearly we need a game where character customization can take upwards of three hours (and that's while speed-running it)

Yes, we do. I can't run an Inquisition if I haven't yet achieved maximum fabulosity. That's why Mojave Delight is my best friend.

[Guest]

*Somber Signal*

Over the last few chapters this has made me curious. Is there anyone on cloudsville that still reads PH but doesn't visit the grimdark?

@Changes to Skyrim or Elder Scrolls

If anything I'd like to see a change to how you advance your skills. Fallout is much more conveniant you can advance your skills and progress through the game at the same time, elder scrolls always gave me the feeling that you had to sit around and grind away at them. I of course could be wrong but it was never apparent to me on how you would max out things like lockpicking.

[Harmony Ltd.]

*Somber Signal*

Over the last few chapters this has made me curious. Is there anyone on cloudsville that still reads PH but doesn't visit the grimdark?

I rarely go there myself.

[Vinylshadow]

Whoops, nearly forgot to snag the new chapter for perusal before I left

Thanks for reminding me

ffffehhh....can't download it as a PDF...

*promptly copy-pastes the entire thing to a Word Document*

Now I'll be able to edit it and not give any feedback to any such edits since there's people that are a lot more competent than me doing that sort of thing...even if they take a few weeks to post their revisions

[Guest]

even if they take a few weeks to post their revisions

What? In my experience Hinds is pretty on the ball about rectifying any mistakes he's shown. The longest it seems to take for him to fix anything is right after a chapter realeases when there are too many people viewing the document for him to do anything or when he's preoccupied with work or school. Both cases it's just a matter of hours. Not days and definitely not weeks.

[Harmony Ltd.]

He was asking how many of the regular posters here who still read PH also regularly go to the PH discussion thread. My answer was that I don't regularly go there myself.

[Frost]

The "official" PH thread. 

And I agree with ya, Mood. Some sort of compromise, at least, between the grinding "practice makes perfect" of ES and the ability of Fallout to use your high-level skills to help your lower ones. 

It creates a paradox in ES where, after you've leveled a skill and you no longer gain XP and levels from it, you are really discouraged from using it as much lest you stagnate

[StoneSlinger88]

In Morrowind you only advanced a level when you leveled up a major or minor skill. The rest wouldn't affect your level but did affect what happened in game. Choosing acrobatics and then jumping around Vivec led to very fast power-leveling.

[Scienza]

I'm not sure whether I've mentioned before, but I really dislike the leveling system in TES. While you could argue that the practice-makes-perfect system is more "realistic", it's problematic from a game design standpoint because it incentivizes grinding over quest-completion. Sure, you're probably going to level your practical skills, like One-Handed or Sneak or Restoration, but there's no way in hell you're ever going to level your crafting skills while doing so outside of a skill book. So, you're stuck with making and enchanting a shitton of iron daggers, or you can just pay an NPC to train you, defeating the whole point of this leveling system to begin with. The worst offenders are probably the armor skills, which are basically impossible to consistently level unless you're intentionally getting hit.

This is why there's so many grinding exploits for TES (my personal favorite is casting Soul Trap on a corpse a million times) while there little-none for the Fallout series outside of glitches.

[Guest]

@Sci
Some of the mods I'm running in Skyrim help with the grinding by A) making you gain a rank in a random skill you use a lot every time you complete a quest, and B) making you advance in the armor skills just by running around in the armor. It actually makes armor leveling too easy, tbh, so I usually tone it down a bit. Marksman/archery is actually the skill I tend to find myself grinding at the most. Oh, and the crafting skills are really bad, too.

TBH I think the Fallout one works just fine "realistically" because usually the skills you're going to be leveling up are skills that you're using the most often. I don't necessarily want that style of skill-up in TES, but I'd understand and not hate it if they put it in.

Oh, and don't forget how Oblivion tried to disincentive you from grinding by having all the enemies scale up with your level, so you'd be at an extreme disadvantage if you went and powerleveled non-combat skills. That was really bad.

[Epsilon]

For all the reasons mentioned, this is why I rather prefer Fallout's approach to skill advancement and leveling as opposed to TES. Not as realistic, sure, but it still doesn't feel as tedious. Nor does it allow you to create perfect characters.

Personally I find that the problems with Fallout's skill progression can be mitigated pretty reasonably by reducing starting skills to 10-15 (Aside from tagged), reducing skill points gained per level, and making tag skills advance two points per point allocated. This helps to ensure that the skills you're most likely to use on your character (Your tags) are what will actually reach 100, while everything else tends to settle around 50-80 by the time you reach the level cap (35 in my case).

And yes, having enemies level with you is an absolutely horrible approach to in-game difficulty. Completely eliminates the challenge from the game and inevitably turns enemies into damage sponges. I'm glad that aside from the DLC, New Vegas chose not to do this. It really is wonderful to actually feel your character growing more powerful by being able to deal with enemies and situations that were previously impossible to overcome.

[Frost]

Ah, the old Bound Dagger-forever trick. 

Yes, by contrast, you gain XP in Fallout by killin' shit and lockpicking and shit. I'm tempted to say one should get XP for Repairing, but that opens up all sorts expoloits

[Harmony Ltd.]

I'm tempted to say one should get XP for Repairing, but that opens up all sorts expoloits

Wasteland mercenary outfits suddenly become one of the most precious items in the meta-game.

[RoboRed]

even if they take a few weeks to post their revisions

What? In my experience Hinds is pretty on the ball about rectifying any mistakes he's shown. The longest it seems to take for him to fix anything is right after a chapter realeases when there are too many people viewing the document for him to do anything or when he's preoccupied with work or school. Both cases it's just a matter of hours. Not days and definitely not weeks.

I actually just got finished reading the latest chapter and I saw his little editing marker while I was reading.

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