Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Vinylshadow]

All we really know is that she was more loyal to Equestria as a whole; she wanted to help the Wasteland while most of the other pegasi wanted nothing to do with it

But yeah, having a definite closure to her (death or ghoulification) would have been nice

Guess Kkat didn't want to kill every Harmony Bearer...sure, there's fics where practical reincarnations of the Mane Six exist, but it's not the same thing as actually having them there

Although the number of writers that write them believably are incredibly rare...

[Shady]

I love Carlin, but in this case I'd disagree with him.

Well, he is both right and wrong with that statement about who has the right to complain and who don't. It depends on the circumstances. For example, a few weeks ago, there was a second round of mayor's election for my home town, and I didn't vote. The choices were: voting for the same guy who run that office for last 12 years, and who had the support of the country's dominating party, who basically keep stealing from people, or a lady from a party that is very conservatist, and is basically enslaved to one guy who owns religious radio station and constantly interfers with politics, while he steals from old ladies who listen to the radio and he himself despises them (seen in a recent video where he pushed people away when they try to kiss his hand); and that latter party also keeps coming up with conspiracy theories regarding the plane accident in Smoleńsk, where our president and about 100 other people died, and try to prove it with clearly false evidences. Sorry for adding those bits, just wanted to explain more why the second party cannot be trusted. Anyways, as I said, I didn't go to vote, because at this point I no longer care which of them rules. It baffles me and makes me question the intelligence of my countrymen that those two parties have the most votes (which kinda proved the first thing Carlin mentions in the clip, about the public).

Now, during the first round of election, during which we also had to vote for city council and such, I went to vote, to support the party who's goals and ideas I agreed with the most. That party got about 10% of votes, so now I can complain about the majority of city council :)

Eh, do whatever you want

Who's gonna stop you?

What I meant was to ask what did you mean by "trust me, you don't want to be mistaken for me"

A tad off-topic but have you considered voting blank? To bad the situation is as it is now, Wroclaw is one of my favorite cities in Poland.
Also Somber did you have any luck yet with the lost data?

[Icy Shake]

Your... your property?!” I fumed, my eye narrowing as I glared at him

should have second space after quotation

Is "fumed" not an acceptable speaking verb?

This was my mistake: it is. I thought it was only a non-speaking expressive verb, though.

I think the convention to spell it "Lulu"

I read "Looloo" and "Lulu" as different nicknames, the latter affectionate and the former disrespectful; I don't know for sure if that was what Somber intended, but I've been under the impression it was.

Fair enough.

maybe an accent for "Ole"?

I think I'll just leave it as it is.  I don't know what accent I'd add, anyway.

Would've been an aigu over the e.

what's with the line between these paragraphs? Should it be after the Steel Rain paragraph, the last of the chapter?

…I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Weird. Looks like that only shows up on a download.

I think "surrounding" would be better as "surrounded" to match the other two verbs

Well, that would render the sentence as written grammatically incorrect, as far as I can tell, but I can adapt it.

Here's what I was thinking:
From this

She was thin, huge shadows surrounding her eyes, and her trademark poofy hair hung in pink and white streaks over her face.

There're two core independent clauses, "She was thin" and "her trademark poofy hair hung . . . ", and "huge shadows surrounding her eyes" is modifying the first, despite not being necessarily that strongly connected to it. In retrospect, elaborating thinness as gaunt or sunken certainly works, where I was thinking of the shadows as more direct signs of fatigue or sickness, rather than being due to her thinness, since my easiest association with thin isn't so much an appearance of starvation or malnourishment, but a body type. My suggested change results instead in a list consisting of three parallel independent clauses, each making a separate observation about, in turn, her weight, her eyes/facial structure, and her hair. It's a different structure, with potentially a subtly different meaning, but still grammatically correct, I believe.

Anyway, this weekend it really hit me just how well FoE Pinkie extrapolates from show Pinkie, in her virtues and abilities but especially her faults. And without even the benefit of "A Friend in Deed" to work from, too. Sure, those characteristics were already present, notably in "Griffon the Brush-Off" and "Green Isn't Your Color," for instance, but I thought that "A Friend in Deed" really solidified her character. Kkat did well with most of the Mane Six, but I don't really think as strikingly so with Twilight, Fluttershy, or Rainbow; those weren't as hard to get right, I think. (I will say, though, that Fluttershy in "Keep Calm and Flutter On" was certainly cut from the same mold as the one behind MARE.) Unfortunately, I don't remember FoE Rarity well enough independent of PH Rarity to give an impression.

It's a bit hard to judge FoE Rainbow just because of how strikingly absent she was.

Yeah, that's certainly true.

[O. Hinds]

This was my mistake: it is. I thought it was only a non-speaking expressive verb, though.

Ah, okay.

Would've been an aigu over the e.

Well, I could look up what that looks like pretty easily… hm… Eh, sure.
And in.

Weird. Looks like that only shows up on a download.

Huh. [shrugs]

There're two core independent clauses, "She was thin" and "her trademark poofy hair hung . . . ", and "huge shadows surrounding her eyes" is modifying the first, despite not being necessarily that strongly connected to it. In retrospect, elaborating thinness as gaunt or sunken certainly works, where I was thinking of the shadows as more direct signs of fatigue or sickness, rather than being due to her thinness, since my easiest association with thin isn't so much an appearance of starvation or malnourishment, but a body type. My suggested change results instead in a list consisting of three parallel independent clauses, each making a separate observation about, in turn, her weight, her eyes/facial structure, and her hair. It's a different structure, with potentially a subtly different meaning, but still grammatically correct, I believe.

That makes sense. Oh, yes, and it would be correct if this was treated as a list, now that I look at it again; I didn't notice that last time. My apologies. What I put in ought to work, though, I think.

[O. Hinds]

Oh, Icy Shake, I have a request, if you do not mind: this weekend I shall be busy moving, and so I would be obliged if, should you have another of your extremely useful but also significantly time consuming error spotting and commentary posts ready this weekend, you would wait until Tuesday to post it.  Sorry for the bother, but I'm assuming that it's easier for you to modify your procedures to delay the post than it would be be for me to modify my procedures to delay the processing; if you believe that I am in error on this and that my request would cause you significant difficulties, I apologize, and please let me know.  Thank you.

[Whiskey Rebellion]

I'm not sure if this'll get seen, but I'd just like to thank everybody who's been working on Project Horizons.

I've been reading PH for the past few years, going on three now, I think. I know it sounds stupid and cheesy, but this story has helped make me who I am today, and it's helped me through some tough times. Everything from Blackjack's fairly libertine sexuality making me realise how strange and arbitrary our societal views on sex are, to Black showing me just how seriously, ungodly horrible rape is. This story has me seeing a fictional, alcoholic, insane, pony as a role model, something no other character has ever really achieved for me. When my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer, Project Horizons played a huge part in helping me deal with everything. Without it, I think I might have just broke, but seeing all the shit that Security and company waded through just gave me the slap in the face I needed. Like it was saying, "Cut the self-pity you privileged little pansy. Thousands of people have it worse off than you can imagine."

I'm just rambling now, but seriously. Thank y'all so much for this. I will now sink to the lowest depths of corniness and thank each of you individually. Somber, Bronode, Hinds, Swicked, Heartshine, and formerly Snipehamster and Hidden Treasure, thank you. (I think that's everyone, now.)

I'm currently scraping up enough money to make a donation that won't be pointless. I've been reading a five-volume series of novels for free, and my capitalistic instincts demand the author receive proper compensation.

[Scienza]

Welcome, Whiskey!

[Epsilon]

Good to meet you, Whiskey! Welcome to the forums.

[Whiskey Rebellion]

Welcome, Whiskey!

Good to meet you, Whiskey! Welcome to the forums.

Thanks, guys.

Not gonna lie, here. Never been welcomed to a forum before. Is there a method to this? Asking is a faux pas, isn't it?

Anyway, it's nice to finally get off my keister and make an account somewhere. Lurking gets old after a while.

[Scienza]

Nah, we're mostly pretty relaxed (except about headcanon, which is very serious business). Swing on over to the PHCC thread and see how completely insane we tend to be. Also, you might want to make a thread in the official introductions section, so that you can really meet the forum.

[Whiskey Rebellion]

Nah, we're mostly pretty relaxed (except about headcanon, which is very serious business). Swing on over to the PHCC thread and see how completely insane we tend to be. Also, you might want to make a thread in the official introductions section, so that you can really meet the forum.

Just making sure. I tend to make people a might offended on accident, so I make sure to check. People take the strangest things very seriously in some forums.

I will now cease with the off topic chatter.

[Scienza]

Nah, we're mostly pretty relaxed (except about headcanon, which is very serious business). Swing on over to the PHCC thread and see how completely insane we tend to be. Also, you might want to make a thread in the official introductions section, so that you can really meet the forum.

Just making sure. I tend to make people a might offended on accident, so I make sure to check. People take the strangest things very seriously in some forums.

I will now cease with the off topic chatter.

I was about to say that you should meet Frost, but it seems you have.

[Icy Shake]

Great to have you here, Whiskey. Enjoy your stay.

Hinds, I think I can manage that. Thank you for the heads-up, and I hope your move goes well.

[O. Hinds]

I'm not sure if this'll get seen, but I'd just like to thank everybody who's been working on Project Horizons.

I've been reading PH for the past few years, going on three now, I think. I know it sounds stupid and cheesy, but this story has helped make me who I am today, and it's helped me through some tough times. Everything from Blackjack's fairly libertine sexuality making me realise how strange and arbitrary our societal views on sex are, to Black showing me just how seriously, ungodly horrible rape is. This story has me seeing a fictional, alcoholic, insane, pony as a role model, something no other character has ever really achieved for me. When my dad was diagnosed with lung cancer, Project Horizons played a huge part in helping me deal with everything. Without it, I think I might have just broke, but seeing all the shit that Security and company waded through just gave me the slap in the face I needed. Like it was saying, "Cut the self-pity you privileged little pansy. Thousands of people have it worse off than you can imagine."

I'm just rambling now, but seriously. Thank y'all so much for this. I will now sink to the lowest depths of corniness and thank each of you individually. Somber, Bronode, Hinds, Swicked, Heartshine, and formerly Snipehamster, thank you. (If I missed someone I'm really sorry.)

I'm currently scraping up enough money to make a donation that won't be pointless. I've been reading a five-volume series of novels for free, and my capitalistic instincts demand the author receive proper compensation.

Welcome to the forum and thank you for your thanks! I'm glad to know that PH has been such a positive influence and comfort to you.

In the interests of completeness which you seem to desire, I feel that I ought to tell you that one Hidden Fortune is also on the list of former editors (I think that they're mentioned on the hub page), though they weren't with us for very long. …Aaaand perhaps I shouldn't be saying more than that about Hidden.

Hinds, I think I can manage that. Thank you for the heads-up, and I hope your move goes well.

Ah, thank you for both. I'm not expecting the move to be fun, but hopefully it won't be too bad.

[Almar]

[SilentCarto]

Welcome, Whiskey!

Good to meet you, Whiskey! Welcome to the forums.

Thanks, guys.

Not gonna lie, here. Never been welcomed to a forum before. Is there a method to this? Asking is a faux pas, isn't it?

Anyway, it's nice to finally get off my keister and make an account somewhere. Lurking gets old after a while.

We usually give newcomers the option of unlimited ammo, sanity, or whiskey... but in your case, the latter might be gilding the lily.

[Vinylshadow]

Kkat and Karma

Hm...food for thought

[Valikdu]

Ugh...
You know, when I've first read FoE, I thought it was the best thing to ever be written with a keyboard.
But after the next 3 years? No, it isn't. And one of the factors is those things she does, like in the post above - trying to hold everyone's attention for a little longer with some "deep philosophical" bull[yay].
Also, her reaction to reviews (condescension, "you just don't get it").

[Silver136]

Ugh...
You know, when I've first read FoE, I thought it was the best thing to ever be written with a keyboard.
But after the next 3 years? No, it isn't. And one of the factors is those things she does, like in the post above - trying to hold everyone's attention for a little longer with some "deep philosophical" bull[yay].
Also, her reaction to reviews (condescension, "you just don't get it").

I felt much the same way. I still think it's a good story, but her reaction to some reviews are rather condescending. I do enjoy philosophy though, always have, don't care who writes it, so I don't mind the occasional posts.

[Whiskey Rebellion]

Kkat and Karma

Hm...food for thought

I agree, but damn would that be hard to code.

[Icy Shake]

Kkat and Karma

Hm...food for thought

I agree, but damn would that be hard to code.

Nothing world-shattering there, but it is all stuff worth bearing in mind. Never really hurts to be reminded of things like that.
That said, I'm not a big fan of the not the sum of our actions but a gestalt; it seems to me that that's either largely a distinction without a difference or so obvious as not to be worth saying.

I'm not sure it would really end up being that difficult to code, per se—I think that given maybe three or four stats and some fairly basic transforms you could go a long way, especially if you also include binary parameters for some of the big, discrete in-game choices—but having extra stats for every person/group and balancing them against each other in a way that neither simplifies down to a one-dimensional system nor gets weird edge cases would require a fair amount of extra thought in design and testing.

What really got me about this post was it included a positive/approving reference to PH, clearly marked as such, and Seraphem replied to it without derailing the comment thread with unthinking venom and bile! It's a Christmas miracle!

[Epsilon]

Personally, I think that re-organizing Fallout's karma system to function more like the reputation system of New Vegas would be a step in the right direction.

Instead of using a simple slider to determine whether a character is a saint or the devil incarnate, you would instead have two values, positive karma and negative karma, that pull in opposite directions to shape the character's morality. This way your "evil" deeds cannot be so easily redeemed, one bottle of water at a time. At most, you can hope to break even with neutral karma.



It wouldn't be perfect, of course, and perhaps still too simplistic, but at the least it would make for a more realistic and three-dimensional outlook on a character's karma. Plus it's a system that has already been implemented before. No difficulties with coding here.

Perhaps, for the sake of adding more informative "neutral" karmic titles, this system could also take note of which directional changes in karma the character made over time. For instance, if the character managed to reach the higher tiers of evil karma, then turned around and aspired to be as good as possible (Only good karma gains from then until the present), then their "karmic title" could reflect such a shift (Such as "Reformed Outlaw"). The player's karma would still be "neutral", but their title could at least acknowledge the effort to change. The same would also apply to moving in the opposite direction ("Fallen Hero"), or even if the player made incredibly frequent and unpredictable shifts ("Unpredictable", "Wild Child").

[Somber]

Personally, I'd do Karma in two ways.  First is factional.  Do good things to X, improve faction with X, decrease faction with Y.  The important thing is that you need a clear choice between the two.  For example, the NCR / Legion dynamic is pretty cut and dry.  One is mildly annoying bureaucracy and the other are crucifying slaving murderers... OH!  Who are also misogynists!  So in order to support the Legion, I have to be a complete monster... wonderful.

The other is hidden.  If I kill 200 raiders, some NPC's should react with fear or respect.  If I do 200 helpful side quests, then I should have a reputation for being helpful.  If I successfully barter, speech, or intimidate for more money, I should be ruthless.  And so on and so on.  There shouldn't be a bar for this.  It should simply be an aspect of the game that goes on as I play.

Personally, I like the idea of faction as ideological axis.  For instance: Good and evil, Law and freedom, order and independence, Science or nature.  And I'd include the ability to subvert these from within.  They'd be quest lines that'd be resolved in the finale.

[Frost]

I don't comment much on this thread, but I hope I'm not disrupting too much.

Factions being points on a sociopolitical spectrum is a great tool for writing and the planning stages of fiction, the problem occurs when you look at how ridiculously self-divisive some factions are by nature.

For instance, no one even within the Army's ranks seems to agree on whether the service should embrace America's nature as a diverse nation constitutionally founded on the idea that everyone, no matter their background, could contribute in their unique way...or whether it should be utterly founded on discipline, with all notions of individuality left at the door. This is a microcosm of America at large, it seems, with the liberals mostly saying that we should embrace diversity, conservatives saying all the weirdos need to 'Murica the fuck up, and libertarians like myself saying to get off my goddamn lawn no matter who you vote for.

That's just one nation and one representative faction. I've not spent enough time in other nations to be able to speak for them on the matter, but I'd imagine the situation's similar for them--the "faction" is a Mary Shelley-inspired amalgam of vaguely aligned cities/demographics/states/ect. 

Something the original Fo:E skimped a bit out on, I think--in Red Eye's forces, for instance, you'd find similarly (cynical)ideologists working toward the future alongside sadists who just enjoy beating slaves alongside former slaves/wastelanders that joined up/stayed on just to have some sense of purpose. If a large-scale work is being made, then it's just a missed opportunity to not delve into the depths of all the various types of person that would work for a slaver quasi-empire--or, to use our earlier example, to see all the various motivations and justifications a person would have to leave home to go fight fanatics in the desert.

[Icy Shake]

I don't comment much on this thread, but I hope I'm not disrupting too much.

If this is how you're going to disrupt, do it as much as you want.

The army is something of a paradox in that way. It runs into the conflict that (for your liberals, at least) its purpose is in part to defend the system that allows that diversity, but in order to do so, there are arguably benefits to (locally) minimizing it so that each part is as reliable and predictable as possible in the field. But it's just one of those cases where what is right depends on the situation; and on which note, even (most of) those who want "all notions of individuality left at the door" (I hope) see at least some room for flexibility when the uniform is off and you're not on duty or on call.

I can agree that generally speaking, there wasn't the most internal diversity for the factions, especially by ideology or morality. But Red Eye's forces were probably one of the weaker examples. The Steel Rangers ended up splitting, after all, and the Twilight Society even in FoE had a couple of camps. Even the relative homogeneity of the Enclave was due in part to segregation: the exile of the Dashites was part, and the military/civilian split as well, with only (a small subset of) the military seeing the surface firsthand rather than through the distortions of propaganda. Even within the Enclave military, you had some willing to indiscriminately bombard a civilian population center, and those who would sooner mutiny. But part of the reason, I think, this all came off as a less nuanced than it might have been was that almost everywhere, and with enemy factions especially, Littlepip just didn't have that much direct contact with a wide range of people within a given faction, and certainly not in a deeply embedded or extended way. It's just sort of the nature of things that the distinctions bleed together when only seen at a distance, or for a short time. And FoE leaned generally towards breadth, with depth of focus mainly for the main cast and perhaps a few supporting or antagonistic characters.

[Frost]

I don't comment much on this thread, but I hope I'm not disrupting too much.

If this is how you're going to disrupt, do it as much as you want.

The army is something of a paradox in that way. It runs into the conflict that (for your liberals, at least) its purpose is in part to defend the system that allows that diversity, but in order to do so, there are arguably benefits to (locally) minimizing it so that each part is as reliable and predictable as possible in the field. But it's just one of those cases where what is right depends on the situation; and on which note, even (most of) those who want "all notions of individuality left at the door" (I hope) see at least some room for flexibility when the uniform is off and you're not on duty or on call.

Army Rant:

I can agree that generally speaking, there wasn't the most internal diversity for the factions, especially by ideology or morality. But Red Eye's forces were probably one of the weaker examples. The Steel Rangers ended up splitting, after all, and the Twilight Society even in FoE had a couple of camps. Even the relative homogeneity of the Enclave was due in part to segregation: the exile of the Dashites was part, and the military/civilian split as well, with only (a small subset of) the military seeing the surface firsthand rather than through the distortions of propaganda. Even within the Enclave military, you had some willing to indiscriminately bombard a civilian population center, and those who would sooner mutiny. But part of the reason, I think, this all came off as a less nuanced than it might have been was that almost everywhere, and with enemy factions especially, Littlepip just didn't have that much direct contact with a wide range of people within a given faction, and certainly not in a deeply embedded or extended way. It's just sort of the nature of things that the distinctions bleed together when only seen at a distance, or for a short time. And FoE leaned generally towards breadth, with depth of focus mainly for the main cast and perhaps a few supporting or antagonistic characters.

I'll have to take your word on that; as it's been several years since I read the original Fo:E and the Red Eye faction was, due to its nature, one of the more stand-out examples. I will agree, though, that the focus was towards breadth rather than depth--understandable, as it had a whole world to build while progressing through a character-heavy heavily-developed story. That's what the spin-off stories are for, though--to explore, expand, and build off of the established world.

[Silver136]

Personally, I'd do Karma in two ways.  First is factional.  Do good things to X, improve faction with X, decrease faction with Y.  The important thing is that you need a clear choice between the two.  For example, the NCR / Legion dynamic is pretty cut and dry.  One is mildly annoying bureaucracy and the other are crucifying slaving murderers... OH!  Who are also misogynists!  So in order to support the Legion, I have to be a complete monster... wonderful.

The other is hidden.  If I kill 200 raiders, some NPC's should react with fear or respect.  If I do 200 helpful side quests, then I should have a reputation for being helpful.  If I successfully barter, speech, or intimidate for more money, I should be ruthless.  And so on and so on.  There shouldn't be a bar for this.  It should simply be an aspect of the game that goes on as I play.

Personally, I like the idea of faction as ideological axis.  For instance: Good and evil, Law and freedom, order and independence, Science or nature.  And I'd include the ability to subvert these from within.  They'd be quest lines that'd be resolved in the finale.

I think that's being a little harsh towards the Legion. Is it flawed? Absolutely. But there's more order in the Legion then in really any other faction. Look at the NCR, their soldiers are alcoholics, traitors, drug addicts, murderers, rapists, etc. Meanwhile, probably the worst person in the Legion would be the Legate, and he was raised by tribals. I always considered the Legion to be a temporary regime. They take over, restore a good part of order to the wasteland (not all of course, but some), and then the wastelands inevitably rise up and overthrow dictator Caesar, much like actual Rome. This would force them to work together as well, further adding to the benefits of.Legion rule.

[Valikdu]

As far as I remember, there was internal disagreement during the writing of the Legion.
Chris Avellone wanted to write them as morally grey, but was opposed for some stupid reason.
The result is kind of a mess, dotted with plunges into impractical cartoonish villainy.

[Frost]

It was also implied by Caesar that their nature was out of a perceived necessity to enforce homogeny among the conquered tribes (thus, the brainwashing and de jure slavery of the males) and to raise an army capable of defeating resistance without unacceptable losses (thus, the de facto slavery of the females and their use as non-frontline personnel/breeding stock). Caesar clearly intended to turn the Legion into more of a real culture and nation once he'd claimed Vegas as his Pax Romana. It would still be a harsh, militaristic and imperialistic force, but one would expect more egalitarianism in terms of men having an option of profession besides "soldier" and women having an option besides "pregnant slave".

Though Lanius, had he had his way, would simply have Vegas become an anarcho-feudal battlefield where the strong fight for dominance and the weak are crushed and destroyed. That would be rather a step back

[O. Hinds]

Of course, another complication of the Legion is that those are Caesar's plans, which he might or might not be able to pull off.

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