Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Train Dodger]

“THAT WON’T BE NECESSARY!” a buck’s voice boomed from outside, fit to make my teeth rattle.  A half-dozen explosions tore into the gangers, making them scatter for cover.  A section of wall was blown in, showing us with rubble, and in walked a buck who could have been Deus’s power-armored twin; he wore two massive artillery guns just as the former Reaper had.  “Paladin Stronghoof, your reinforcements have arrived!”  There had to be at least a dozen Rangers arriving from the north.

So, you can interpret this in several ways. It could mean that Deus and Steel Rain have the same model of gun strapped to their plots, in which case you have a minor continuity issue. It could mean that Deus and Steel Rain just both have artillery guns without addressing model. Or, alternately, it could be that they have the same model, it's just that Deus' has been modified or upscaled to fire a larger caliber.

Huh, you're right.

Still, though, guns of that caliber on a pony - any pony, short of Goliath, in fact - would indeed look pretty ridiculous. And, again, as I mentioned in the proofing stuff for Chapter 8, there is literally nowhere on their person they could store more than a few cartridges that size.

Take this excellent pic of Deus by Vector-Brony, for example: http://vector-brony.deviantart.com/art/deus-ex-machina-Project-Horizons-475385489. In order for the bore of those guns (which already appear ridiculously huge and also appear to lack magazines large enough to carry much of anything) to be exactly proportional to 122mm (based on the number of pixels), Deus would have to be 2.6m tall, measured to the top of his head. That's 8.5 feet, or a great deal taller than Princess Celestia, or 2.45x the height of the average pony (assuming 3.5 feet is average). Since that doesn't really get the point across, let me put it this way, using another of Vector-Brony's amazing vectors:



Do you really have to stack Blackjack two and a half times to equal one Deus? Hell, that's WH40K Space Marine-sized. If he were actually this big, he wouldn't be merely "raping" ponies. He'd be walking around wearing their torso as a cock ornament. Bleach that horrific mental image from your brain.

Okay, okay. Let's assume that Deus is actually a much more reasonable six feet tall when on all fours, about equal to Celestia. He would be dwarfed by his own guns (excuse the cruddy Photoshopping):



This effect only gets worse the more you scale him down while leaving the guns the same size. Let's say he's the same height as Big Mac:



I think you get the picture. This is why I said "maybe if it were a grenade launcher instead of a cannon", because the only way to make a 122mm gun look not ridiculous on a pony (and the only way for them to carry more rounds than what's already in the chamber) would be to saw off the barrels until the muzzle velocity is about grenade or mortar-like. But really, the largest gun you could mount on a cyberpony (or power-armored pony's battle saddle rig) and still have it be practical would be much, much smaller-bore. Think 25mm to 40mm autocannon. A 40mm autocannon has plenty of firepower:



And in case all that wasn't enough to convince you of the sheer folly of mounting a 120mm or 122mm gun on a pony:



This is how big a 120mm shell is. In real life.

Again, I ask: where the hell are Deus and Steel Rain putting their spare ammunition? Are they, by any chance, better than P-21 at hiding things in their rectums?

Dammit, sometimes I hate knowing so much about guns and weapons in general. It ruins otherwise perfectly good stories for me.

[JadedPony]

Ah, but you are forgetting the magic of apple whiskey. Remember, this is a universe where a bartender can turn a collection of apples into bottles of apple whiskey. Transmutation of matter is not that uncommon, even in the show. Remember frogs into oranges? Making spike a tuxedo out of thin air? It is not unreasonable to think that the big D and Steel had a specific spell matrix integrated into their armor to transmute reserves of energy into ammo inside their ammo box. They may have only needed one shell worth of storage as their systems would replace the shell with a replicated version once the shell was loaded into the chamber for firing. As long as they had energy, they had shells. 

Also who says that you couldn't have a tiny, tiny little gun that shoots tiny tiny little bullets that pass through the event horizon of an enlarging spell matrix as the bullet exits the chamber? You could make a crossbow with a enlarger matrix on the end of it that shoots swords at people. Because: sword gun

[Vinylshadow]

Big pony needs big guns

And Deus being bigger wouldn't really surprise me; I mean, he WAS cybernetically enhanced...what's to say they didn't give him a bigger body?

and gave him a big thingamajig with which to rape survivors with...

[O. Hinds]

(assuming 3.5 feet is average)

Let's see, that's… 106.68cm. I, and I think PH, use 122cm as the average pony height, just so you know.

[Train Dodger]

(assuming 3.5 feet is average)

Let's see, that's… 106.68cm.  I, and I think PH, use 122cm as the average pony height, just so you know.

Hmm, so four feet. Out of curiosity, how many centimeters tall is Deus supposed to be? Is Blackjack taller or shorter than average?

[O. Hinds]

Those I don't know, sorry.

[Vinylshadow]

...Once again, I'd been meaning to ask the average height of a pony

Once again, it's been answered without me having to say anything

That's just getting creepy now

Poor Sasha, traveling to a world where everything living is 3 times your height...well, that makes writing a lot easier...

[SilentCarto]

Still, though, guns of that caliber on a pony - any pony, short of Goliath, in fact - would indeed look pretty ridiculous. And, again, as I mentioned in the proofing stuff for Chapter 8, there is literally nowhere on their person they could store more than a few cartridges that size.

I believe it mentioned somewhere that the weight and strength of power armor is really required to fire them without getting knocked over by the recoil, not to mention having a layer of armor between you and that muzzle blast.

And in case all that wasn't enough to convince you of the sheer folly of mounting a 120mm or 122mm gun on a pony:



This is how big a 120mm shell is. In real life.

Just because it's 120mm in diameter doesn't mean it has to be that specific cartridge. This Civil War 12-pounder is also a 120mm gun.



As I calculated a few pages back, a maximum range of 2 miles would only require about 7 inches of powder space, and that's assuming it fires the HEAT warhead that guy is holding. The real-world 120mm shell has a maximum effective range published as 4000m (2.5 miles), but that's limited only by the hardware's ability to accurately place shells -- when you feed it a laser-homing LAHAT round, its range doubles. I tend to assume that technologies like EFS offer similar accuracy across the shell's entire range envelope.

[Icy Shake]

In addition to what's already been said, I'd like to add that the presence of the repair talismans could considerably reduce the thickness required of the barrel and chamber, since it would only need to survive the wear and tear of however many shots would be fired before the repair talisman kicked in and reached a point where it was just offsetting the rate of degradation from continued firing. This could also help with the problem of the barrel overheating.

[O. Hinds]

Ooh, nice idea.

[JadedPony]

While thinking about this question I unraveled the mysteries of pony magic and wrote a paper on it... 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/168ri46QBWeQCA2Kcfs2OPtdg3FDLVFohqAZkvWsWN_0

[Frost]

And in case all that wasn't enough to convince you of the sheer folly of mounting a 120mm or 122mm gun on a pony:



This is how big a 120mm shell is. In real life.

I don't weigh in much on this thread, but my gun-discussion senses were tingling. 

As a corollary to Dodger's point, I work with Bradleys a lot (I'm getting moved to a Driver position soon, and we're currently at Gunnery, which is why I've been in the field for two goddamn weeks)

The Bradley has a 25mm. That's downright tiny compared to the described 120mm round. And dismounted troops are not allowed to be within roughly 120 degrees of the muzzle for about three meters, because they--healthy, full-grown average-six-foot/180-200-pound human men in full body armor--are likely to die from the concussion of the round firing. Even a pony like Deus would get thrown for a loop with even a 25mm going off next to his head (as his guns do). He'd likely drop dead, his brain leaking out his ears, the first time that 120mm went off.

[Guest]

It is not unreasonable to think that the big D and Steel had a specific spell matrix integrated into their armor to transmute reserves of energy into ammo inside their ammo box. They may have only needed one shell worth of storage as their systems would replace the shell with a replicated version once the shell was loaded into the chamber for firing. As long as they had energy, they had shells. 

...You're suggesting that their systems create objects out of energy alone? Why is there even any conflict in this world?

I can accept the water talismans congure water. But that is too much. It is in my opininon very unreasonable.

[Silver136]

It is not unreasonable to think that the big D and Steel had a specific spell matrix integrated into their armor to transmute reserves of energy into ammo inside their ammo box. They may have only needed one shell worth of storage as their systems would replace the shell with a replicated version once the shell was loaded into the chamber for firing. As long as they had energy, they had shells. 

...You're suggesting that their systems create objects out of energy alone? Why is there even any conflict in this world?

I can accept the water talismans congure water. But that is too much. It is in my opininon very unreasonable.

I could sort of see this working, but not out of pure energy. We know that scrap metal is magically used to repair armor; who says it can't magically create bullets? But this then creates the issue of, "why eject the casing if it can be recycled into new rounds?" This whole "large gun" topic has a lot of its argument based on real life weapons, when we have to remember this is a world of colored ponies that can use magic. Its entirely possible that the guns or armor are enchanted to reduce concussive force.

[Guest]

My issues is solely with the idea that anyone's suit/augmentations creates something from energy alone. I'm fine with BJ's talisman recycling whatever cyberpony cakes were made out of. I don't have any issue with that extending to bullets/shells whatever the proper term is.

[Silver136]

Like I said, I agree with you. Energy transmutation is taking it way too far. Metal transmutatiom is much more likely.

[JadedPony]

Yeah, I should have been more clear on that, it was late. I meant as long as there are raw resources available and he has power he could just make more ammo. As to why there is a resource crisis at all, I imagine making a spell matrix capable of replicating shells by reordering metal molecules would be very specific. You would need a integrated power supply and spell matrix for every thing you made. 

Think of it like the waste recyclers. Poop goes in, it grows algae they harvest the living organic molecules then they make various kinds of food out of it. Organic molecules are much more complex and variable compared to metals. 

I imagine somewhere in the wasteland there is a ballistic cupcake cannon that turns old pie crusts and stale cakes into rapid fire cup-cakes topped with psychedelic mint cream frosting that never quite made it to battle because the energy consumption was too problematic.

[Vinylshadow]

Are we really discussing how it's possible for ponies to be able to create something out of nothing?

MAGIC


or something, I guess

How and where would they carry the ammo for their big guns anyway?

[Guest]

As to why there is a resource crisis at all, I imagine making a spell matrix capable of replicating shells by reordering metal molecules would be very specific. You would need a integrated power supply and spell matrix for every thing you made. 

When I said that though it was with the understanding you were talking about a technology that literally created objects from energy. It's very difficult to imagine a conflict over resources when you can just make the resources. Combining stuff you already have to make what you need with that energy however is pretty different to straight up creating it.

[Vinylshadow]

Unless they're using Chozo missile technology...

[Guest]

Does anyone remember how the silver bullets work? I think BJ saw one that was cut in half and it was made starmetal and moonstone with flux as a buffer between the two.

Was there a reason it had flux in it? Steelrain had starmetal armor and the only thing keeping his amulet (or whatever you wanna call it) from touching was a plastic cover. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it the flux in the bullet that caused BJ to get tainted by them? If plastic is enough the flux seems like an unneeded danger. I'm probably being dumb and missing something here.

[Scienza]

Maybe the flux aids in the firing process by serving as a dynamic buffer of sorts. Since presumably Steel Rain doesn't want to go up like a smoker in a fireworks shop, a hard plastic cover might be enough, while in a silver bullet, going boom is the whole goal. So, maybe flux's ability to radically transform and change has a role in that.

Or maybe it's there because ponies put flux in everything and Trottenheimer didn't see a reason to go against such a storied tradition.

[Vinylshadow]

There was a memory orb about it, I think

deleted my Horizons pdf though, so I don't remember which chapter

I think it was sometime before BJ got her Enclave upgrade?

[Scienza]

deleted my Horizons pdf though, so I don't remember which chapter

You keep on talking about this. You know you can pretty easily get a new epub, right?

[Guest]

@Scienza For silliness I like to think Flim and Flam have a contract with the Equestrian government that says they have to use Flux in everything.

I wonder if it's intentionally unclear, we know Discord did something around the eater and we know a giant moonstone bullet is heading for the eater. What if Flux neutralizes the effects of starmetal and/or moonstone and it's presence is just a safety precaution in the silverbullets. To eliminate the possibility of them going off in transport.

That doesn't look right. Flux in the bullets if they had that effect just seems to be one more step towards safety and not a particularly big one at that. Especially when the trade off is firing the gun and potentially assembling the bullets will give you cancer.

Still I'd imagine if it effected the firing of folly that each shot would be a little different, considering where flux comes from you'd expect it to be a bit unpredictable.

[Somber]

Yeah.... In retrospect, Steel's guns should have been something like a 30mm round.

In other news... I'm really really sorry chapter 70 is taking so long.  August kind of turned into a pile of shit for me...

[Vinylshadow]

deleted my Horizons pdf though, so I don't remember which chapter

You keep on talking about this. You know you can pretty easily get a new epub, right?

Don't remind me

I'll get a new one...one of these days, probably once I'm all caught up with the two dozen other Epubs I have to finish before I even think about re-reading Horizons


@Ch. 70

Take your time, life doesn't stop just because you're writing

*glares at unfinished interlude and chapter 4 of my own story*

[Scienza]

Yeah.... In retrospect, Steel's guns should have been something like a 30mm round.

In other news... I'm really really sorry chapter 70 is taking so long.  August kind of turned into a pile of shit for me...

Steel's a growing boy. He can handle it.

About the update speed, seriously, don't sweat it. 90-100% of the fanfics that I follow haven't updated in the last 6 months. Hell, with the last two chapters, you almost updated too fast for me, and I couldn't get free time to read them properly.

[Vinylshadow]

Yeah, we need, what, at least a month and a half to pick the chapter apart piece by piece and agonize over every detail?

[JadedPony]

Yeah.... In retrospect, Steel's guns should have been something like a 30mm round.

In other news... I'm really really sorry chapter 70 is taking so long.  August kind of turned into a pile of shit for me...

His huge, powerful weapon was one of his few redeeming qualities!  


August is hard for everyone. It's a transitional month, new jobs, new assignments at old jobs, labor day is monday in the U.S. so people are preparing to have family get togethers and stuff. This is one of those months you get overwhelmed in every year then it makes the next month seem like a breeze. I tend to stay totally whelmed when ever there isn't a holiday in the month. I'm not sure why they call it a holiday when people always make it more work than just going to work.

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