Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[SilentCarto]

Spoiler:

It hurt to read, but this has been telegraphed for a long time. I mean, of course they're a bit much. That's the point.

Congratulations on making us all feel for a fictional character before she even got in the machine.

"I also found out that Kkat read Horizons up to chapter sixteen and said it was okay... wildly off canon from what she planned... but good." Last I heard she'd only gotten through chapter 4. *Winks, pokes universe* And while all those blogs Kkat's made about her headcanon are nice, I can't apologise for liking your worldbuilding way more.

Well, that's kinda the problem with headcanon, isn't it? Nobody knows about it but you.

Spoiler:

You say that like Dawn isn't going to show up with it. Or it'll turn up right in front of BJ, sticking point-first into the concrete as if to taunt her that it's not that easy to get rid of.

“No, you’re making me horny, and I have stable to evacuate, a city to save, a marefriend to reunite with, and your brother to stop before tens of thousands die.  I do not have time for a quickie,” I said before pointing down the hall.

I love this, not least because it strongly echoes the fix made to chapter thirty four.

What fix is that?

There was doing better, trying harder, and not giving up, and then there was hacking off a perfectly good limb to make a pony a more efficient killing machine.

Am I the only one picking up shades of "Shadowrun"? Though I guess it's probably a common theme, and consistent in particular with the brain bots.

Oh, certainly. The new cyborgs have "cyberpsychosis" written all over them.

I hope that this wasn't the big scene where she had to decide if she was an executioner or not.

I don't think so. It's more that police sometimes have to shoot down someone who is making themselves a direct threat to innocents. An executioner decides that someone has to die for their crimes or for the greater good; this is simply defending people against someone who refuses to stop.

I knew this was coming the moment I read the chapter, so lets just get this out of the way now. First off let me say that yes, there are classic Mary Sue traits. Being an Alicorn and being powerful are probably two of the most common Mary Sue Traits in MLP fanfics. However simply having a few of these traits does not make you a Mary Sue. What makes you a Mary Sue is how those abilities and characteristics interact with the plot and other characters.

Hear hear!

And then I realized that it's a space sword. Goodbye Space Sword.

Nooooooooo! Come back, Space Sword!

[SilentCarto]

Forgive me for being rude, Kippershy, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

  

[Caoimhe]

What's the gestation period of a cartoon horse? Is the babydaddy more likely P-21 or Styg? Hmmmm (I know we're probably going with the former).

[Adalbertus]

What's the gestation period of a cartoon horse? Is the babydaddy more likely P-21 or Styg? Hmmmm (I know we're probably going with the former).

Considering that BJ was "in season" during the little bit of gala fun, I'd say P-21 for sure.

[Caoimhe]

Wasn't that just Glory? I thought it was heavily implied that it was mostly her. I know it's most likely P-21 but being Styg's could go along way to add more for BJ's mood during that arc.

[Adalbertus]

Wasn't that just Glory? I thought it was heavily implied that it was mostly her. I know it's most likely P-21 but being Styg's could go along way to add more for BJ's mood during that arc.

Both Blackjack and Glory got hit at the same time. Remember how Blackjack almost outright suggested a guicky with Lancer even while he had her tied up in her room? That was because she was in heat =P

[Evilgidgit]

My brain is in siv mode again. Why was Marigold (Twilight's moon-landing cousin) under investigation following the space expedition?

[Scienza]

My brain is in siv mode again. Why was Marigold (Twilight's moon-landing cousin) under investigation following the space expedition?

She was secretly the surrogate for Twilight's child. So to the outside world, it's as if she suddenly revealed herself to be many months pregnant despite being cleared medically to go to the moon.

[Moodyman90]

I wish I could give a proper answer but the best I can remember it had to deal with the controversy of if she even made it to space or not, let alone landing on the Moon, despite the abundance of moon rocks in the story.

Something along the lines of if Neil Armstrong and the others had been pegged for Commie sympathizers as well as accused of faking the Moon landing is the best parallel I can come up with given my horrible memory of that particular bit of info.

Scienza most likely hit the nail on the head with that one.

[Derpmind]

I was thinking about BJ's foal that's STILL IN HER AS SHE FALLS INTO THE CORE. Wouldn't enervation still be an issue for an unborn, non-cybernetic foal?

We know that whatever it is that protects BJ from enervation isn't her cybernetics, especially since Boo is also strangely immune too. So far it's probably Discord and/or the Stars that are doing it.

[Adalbertus]

or... Boo has no soul and cannot feel the soul-draining dead star beneath the city and Blackjack died already, twice, so that might have made her immune to the side effects of dieing. =P

[Guest]

My brain is in siv mode again. Why was Marigold (Twilight's moon-landing cousin) under investigation following the space expedition?

Since this was brought up I think surrogacy was brought up this chapter I haven't read it myself yet. I just had a discussion with someone who had. Who are they going to transfer the baby (I know it's not a baby yet just using baby for simplicity sake.) into? Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it stated earlier in the story that the only chance the procedure had of working was transferring the baby to someone related to you? As far as I can tell only two people are related to BJ, Scotch Tape (Possibly. Through a limited gene pool.) and Grace who is incredibly distantly related.

Maybe if it's put into rampage it will keep regenerating until it finally makes it to term... But she doen't exactly have the best track record as a mother.

[Guest]

BJ's foal that's STILL IN HER AS SHE FALLS INTO THE CORE.

Doesn't ennervation attack the soul? (Or magic or something.) Can't exactly damage a soul that hasn't come in yet. Not claiming to know when a soul comes in on magical horses (Or anything else) but it's just a fertilized egg at this point right?

[Adalbertus]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it stated earlier in the story that the only chance the procedure had of working was transferring the baby to someone related to you? As far as I can tell only two people are related to BJ, Scotch Tape (Possibly. Through a limited gene pool.) and Grace who is incredibly distantly related.

Best chance, but not exactly the only chance. Marigold was Twi's cousin, so she was a sure match, a perfect candidate for a quick surrogacy. For other mares you'd have to run tests for compatibility, but it's possible... if pony physiology works in any way similar to humans that is <_<

Doesn't ennervation attack the soul? (Or magic or something.) Can't exactly damage a soul that hasn't come in yet. Not claiming to know when a soul comes in on magical horses (Or anything else) but it's just a fertilized egg at this point right?

Well, it does prevent microbes from developing too. I mean, it liquefies bodies, but doesn't allow them to rot. I guess it's more of a life essence, but intelligent, magical ponies have much more of it then bacteria that decompose a corpse, that's why ponies tend to be affected stronger... so I guess a collection of cells inside Blackjack's heavy armored womb is safe for now.
As for Boo and Blackjack, like I said before, Blackjack died few times already, she might have developed some kind of resistance, especially after the last time. Boo... she's probably just incompatible with other pony life forces, being made out of Discord in a way.

[Guest]

Best chance, but not exactly the only chance. Marigold was Twi's cousin, so she was a sure match, a perfect candidate for a quick surrogacy. For other mares you'd have to run tests for compatibility, but it's possible... if pony physiology works in any way similar to humans that is <_<

Well then there's only two ponies in the group who could carry it. Rampage who if the healing talisman doesn't extend to the devoping child would likely be an even more dangerous option than leaving it where it is or Boo. Pegasus are stated to be very different (My memory's crap but I think this was brought up pretty much everytime the raider disease was.) so I wouldn't imagine Glory would be any option.

Or maybe a nameless 99 survivor could take it.

[SilentCarto]

You're right.  She could have simply yanked the wires out.  Ugh... Punishment is HARD!  Killing him because he's about to kill folks just doesn't work.  Maybe if I'd made it so BJ mercy killed him rather than let him suffer (after all, as a cyber pony he could stay like that for hours) rather than under the auspice of stopping him it might have been better.

Maybe she could have yanked the wires and just told him, "It's over"... but maybe the fact that she didn't is significant. Stabbing him rather than just leaving him broken and disabled for the megaspell to finish off seems like a statement, to me.

[SilentCarto]

I'm not a perfect writer.  Sometimes I do well.  Sometimes not.  What's aggrivating to me is the opinion by so many that the story starts great and becomes bad.  That bodes ill for me as a writer.  It means I got lucky to start, then lacked the skills to pull it off.  So I try my best to understand why the second half is seen as so inferior to the first.  The point you make about BJ's friends is DEFINITELY part of it though.

Endings are hard. It's relatively easy to set up a conflict, but resolving it and all the dangling threads in a satisfying way is probably the most difficult part of writing. It's good that you recognize where you stumbled -- that means you won't make the same mistakes next time. You'll "Do Better".

[SilentCarto]

I think that this was probably the way to go, for a few reasons. First of all, frankly, the pain (and crippling) had been done, while she was dying of everything. So the alienation angle works better as something newer, while still building on the sense of otherness that was gradually building in the last several chapters leading to Black. Mostly, though, I think it just makes more sense from a character perspective, as she's worked through all kinds of physical pain for most of the story, but nearly been brought down by her emotional baggage. Beyond that, at times she's had a certain satisfaction from the pain she's gone through, because she hates herself and thinks she deserves for the universe to punish her; she doesn't get that from existential unease. Likewise, pain is something that (as you said) she shares with her friends, where what she ended up with is something that separates her from them. Moving on, pain wasn't needed as a limiting factor, because she met the limits of what cyberization could provide anyway, and though impressive and far beyond what normal flesh and blood could take, that wasn't exactly unreasonable. But beyond that, the cyborg being in constant pain is a pretty bad design flaw. Sure, it's fine for a prototype tested on someone you think is a piece of trash who deserves what he has coming to him, but it's not something you want for actual combat troops or if you're going to undergo the process yourself. For those situations, you'd probably want to work out the kinks first.

One thing I really liked about Horizons was that the plot happened BECAUSE the characters were who they were, rather than the characters getting dragged around by the plot (main area I felt KKat's original was weak in).

I don't have much to add, but I felt that both these comments deserved reiteration.

Harry Dresden already had the skull when the story began (honestly, I think it’s rather stupid... whenever he has to figure out how to solve a problem or what kind of magic or creature he’s dealing with, he asks the spirit in the skull and the skull tells him... sometimes on the stipulation that he be let out so he can harass women) and I think he rode the dinosaur in the first book. He got one of the swords from his friend for reasons, and I don’t know what the other sword is from because I haven’t read Dresden in a while.

Bob serves as, basically, an encyclopedia that provides a more interesting scene than cracking the books for a few hours.  And he rode the dinosaur in book 7, Dead Beat. And as for the swords, he doesn't even use them. He's just hanging on to them until they find their rightful wielders (or until said wielders are ready to accept them...)

His story is about a fully-developed wizard dealing with magical problems. You never really see him grow into the powerhouse he already is when the story starts. His enemies are just as powerful, is all, and he has to use his wits.

This is the important part, and the part that I feel connects to BJ. He ends every book practically beaten to a pulp, and every increase in his power comes with its own cost in humanity or freedom. That's the core conceit of the Dresdenverse magic system, of course, but it's not hard to see the parallels with BJ drifting farther and farther from normal ponyhood.

[SilentCarto]

It's a good name, swicked, though I already have images of Blackjack wielding it Kingdom Hearts style.

I'm not sure if it's a typo or not, but I was just re-reading Chapter 5 to look at Dr. Trottenheimer's diary - what is P.L.? I don't remember any projects beginning with L.
(Steelpony, Chimera, Eternity, Starfall, Redoubt, Partypooper, Horizons).

"Princess Luna."

Entry 3> Goldenblood came to me last night. I’ve no idea how he bypasses security. I’ve never seen him so… disturbed. For once, Goldenblood appeared quite at a loss, and he was truly desperate for my expertise. After Project Horizons and Project Starfall, haven’t I done enough? No. For him, for his faith in believing in me when none would… I owe him this. He swore it would never be used on Princess Luna or Princess Celestia. He said the most peculiar thing: ‘There are greater threats.’ I am uneasy, but I will do this for him. Fortunately, I’ve grown quite adept at keeping secrets from my loved ones; this would only worry them, and the less they know, the safer they’ll be from the Ministry of Morale.

[Icy Shake]

He reared up and brought his forehooves to my face… and then the ends of his hooves opened like flowers, three fingers and a thumb springing from each.

HAX! This is a great boss battle, by the way. I love that both of them have a goal other than "kill the other guy".

"HAX!" was kind of what I was thinking, too, since although it's likely that the thumb and finger technology already existed, the professor didn't think to include it for Blackjack, and presumably didn't for Steelpony in general. That said, it's not hard to imagine Lighthooves finding out how useful they are and wanting to add them, but it still leaves the question of how he got something that wasn't within the Steelpony specs, unless Steelpony included the related files for the sand dogs' augmentations.

And that was the point in which I threw the chair with all my strength right into his face.

WOOHOO!

When I read this part of the chapter, I was disappointed that there weren't enough people around for the steel chair effect to occur.

“No,” I admitted.  “Probably not.”  Then I scooped up a load of snow between my hooves and packed it into a ball.  “But if the battle for the future of the Enclave and the Wasteland comes down to a snowball fight, nopony is going to believe it.”

Right up until you do something awesome and incredibly deadly with a snowball... I mean, you already brained a minotaur with a cake. What's left?

I really wanted to include something in my running thoughts, but couldn't put into words, something about the pie fight that never happened in Dr. Strangelove because Kubrick couldn't get the actors to take it seriously.

It really annoys me that every time the new chapter pops up I want to post something relevant here or express my opinion and there's 10+ pages of comments already, that I really don't have the time or patience to read through. Then I feel like a stupid, lazy little kid and I louse all my courage to speak <_<
But yeah, that aside, and no, I did not read through those other posts, forgive me please, I should be working now anyway, here’s my  opinion:

You should have been here when we were filling multiple pages per day, every day, regardless of if there was new content released. Of course, relevance was often pretty low.

I was thinking about BJ's foal that's STILL IN HER AS SHE FALLS INTO THE CORE. Wouldn't enervation still be an issue for an unborn, non-cybernetic foal?

Independent of anything else (but not really helping with a "boat" falling on them), I think it's possible that the Harmony effect that reduces Enervation could apply between a mare and a zygote/embryo/fetus she's carrying. Granted, I have nothing to base this on.

“No, you’re making me horny, and I have stable to evacuate, a city to save, a marefriend to reunite with, and your brother to stop before tens of thousands die.  I do not have time for a quickie,” I said before pointing down the hall.

I love this, not least because it strongly echoes the fix made to chapter thirty four.

What fix is that?

This (said by Blackjack)

Her ears fell…   “But I’m just not drunk enough to forget that I have a mare already.”

became this

“I’m sorry…”  Her ears fell…  “But I’m just not drunk enough to think this is a good time, with the surgery and mission and everything.”

and this (likewise)

“But I am drunk enough that she’ll probably forgive me one kiss.” I pointed out with a laugh as I walked

became this

“But I am drunk enough that one kiss seems okay,” I pointed out with a laugh as I walked to the door.

Wasn't that just Glory? I thought it was heavily implied that it was mostly her. I know it's most likely P-21 but being Styg's could go along way to add more for BJ's mood during that arc.

Both Blackjack and Glory got hit at the same time. Remember how Blackjack almost outright suggested a guicky with Lancer even while he had her tied up in her room? That was because she was in heat =P

And don't forget how he accused her of ensorcelling him to make him want her sexually.

[SilentCarto]

Scoured.

Why?

"Scourged" means "whipped" or "beaten". "Scoured" means "scrubbed" or "removed completely". Only the latter makes sense in this context.

Or you could use the one Steel Rain gave you.

...What?

Oh, just thinking of that plastic doodad Steel Rain presented to her at the coronation. I was expecting Chekhov to fire that gun in this chapter.

[Luminous Lead]

I've been taking an optics course in university, and one of the things we've been learning about is interference and diffraction.

If Enervation is some kind of radiation (it seems to vary with distance to the the source and travel incredibly fast), then depending on the factors (wavelength, source size, number of sources) it might actually be interfering with itself, or diffracting around certain areas, odd as that may seem.  This could account for the blind spots and safe zones, especially if there's a whole slew of transmitters around the area.

[SilentCarto]

Okay, that's freaky. My posts regarding this chapter put me over 1000 posts, which changed my title to "Alicorn".

I'm not sure how to feel about this.

I wonder if I can get it changed to "Cybernetic Alicorn"

[SilentCarto]

"HAX!" was kind of what I was thinking, too, since although it's likely that the thumb and finger technology already existed, the professor didn't think to include it for Blackjack, and presumably didn't for Steelpony in general. That said, it's not hard to imagine Lighthooves finding out how useful they are and wanting to add them, but it still leaves the question of how he got something that wasn't within the Steelpony specs, unless Steelpony included the related files for the sand dogs' augmentations.

Eh... Dawn had fingers, too. It must have been some optional equipment Rover saw in the specs and decided to give her.

I really wanted to include something in my running thoughts, but couldn't put into words, something about the pie fight that never happened in Dr. Strangelove because Kubrick couldn't get the actors to take it seriously.

I don't know what you're talking about but it sounds amazing.  

Independent of anything else (but not really helping with a "boat" falling on them), I think it's possible that the Harmony effect that reduces Enervation could apply between a mare and a zygote/embryo/fetus she's carrying. Granted, I have nothing to base this on.

I would assume, yes, that whatever the reason for BJ's Enervation immunity, she acts as shielding for the embryo.

[Aonee]

Nah, you just become a dragonequus once you hit around 6k posts. Speaking of which... *Drags SilentCarto into IMP vat*

[SilentCarto]

Since this was brought up I think surrogacy was brought up this chapter I haven't read it myself yet. I just had a discussion with someone who had. Who are they going to transfer the baby (I know it's not a baby yet just using baby for simplicity sake.) into? Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it stated earlier in the story that the only chance the procedure had of working was transferring the baby to someone related to you? As far as I can tell only two people are related to BJ, Scotch Tape (Possibly. Through a limited gene pool.) and Grace who is incredibly distantly related.

It was in the pamphlet Boo found in Star House in chapter 50.

Surrogacy is a complex spell process which takes an eligible candidate, prepares her body to carry a foal, and then teleports the baby from one mother to another.  As with any tissue transplant, it is vital that the two ponies involved be as closely matched as possible to prevent the recipient’s body from rejecting the child.  Perhaps you are a mother, sister, or daughter of the recipient?  Even more distant relatives are still stronger candidates to carry the child successfully than unrelated ponies, for whom there is almost no possibility of success.

So you're right, Glory is a poor candidate. Scotch might be a better one, uncomfortable as that idea may be. Boo might or might not, depending on exactly what her genetic makeup is. But there are other options. Maybe they could stasis pod the fetus (pre-conscious, to avoid Whisper's problems) to give them time to wait for Doctor Morningstar's cutting of the cloning tree to get big enough to clone a fresh body for BJ. Then they can transplant BJ's brain like Sanguine did with his family, and surrogate the fetus into the new body. Or they could use the tree to grow a womb, creepy as that may be. Or, hey, give the mini-tree a sample of the fetus and clone up a newborn foal. Would that even work?

[Icy Shake]

I've been taking an optics course in university, and one of the things we've been learning about is interference and diffraction.

If Enervation is some kind of radiation (it seems to vary with distance to the the source and travel incredibly fast), then depending on the factors (wavelength, source size, number of sources) it might actually be interfering with itself, or diffracting around certain areas, odd as that may seem.  This could account for the blind spots and safe zones, especially if there's a whole slew of transmitters around the area.

As interesting as optics and wave mechanics more generally are, I think that that would be an example of increased rigor at the expense of setting and theme. As different and FoE and PH are from the show, both, I believe, do an excellent job of letting the fact that they are about ponies and Equestria shine through, with the Fallout elements being a disturbance that lessens over time as the characters progress through their stories and meet their successes*. It's just a case where the magic of friendship works better than the integration of amplitudes.

*This is kind of an inference, since the completion isn't really seen (apart from the afterward).

I really wanted to include something in my running thoughts, but couldn't put into words, something about the pie fight that never happened in Dr. Strangelove because Kubrick couldn't get the actors to take it seriously.

I don't know what you're talking about but it sounds amazing.

It's just kind of long:

Oh, and while I agree that whatever grants Blackjack partial immunity with respect to Enervation would probably help, I was thinking of the effect in Chapel and the Arena, just localized and fed by a connection between the parent and offspring because magic and friendship and love.

[SilentCarto]

It's just kind of long:

O...kay then.

Oh, and while I agree that whatever grants Blackjack partial immunity with respect to Enervation would probably help, I was thinking of the effect in Chapel and the Arena, just localized and fed by a connection between the parent and offspring because magic and friendship and love.

Well, she's gone pretty much full immunity at this point. Maybe that's because the plastic thing Steel Rain had is an anti-Enervation talisman... maybe not.

[Scienza]

I've been taking an optics course in university, and one of the things we've been learning about is interference and diffraction.

If Enervation is some kind of radiation (it seems to vary with distance to the the source and travel incredibly fast), then depending on the factors (wavelength, source size, number of sources) it might actually be interfering with itself, or diffracting around certain areas, odd as that may seem.  This could account for the blind spots and safe zones, especially if there's a whole slew of transmitters around the area.

As interesting as optics and wave mechanics more generally are, I think that that would be an example of increased rigor at the expense of setting and theme. As different and FoE and PH are from the show, both, I believe, do an excellent job of letting the fact that they are about ponies and Equestria shine through, with the Fallout elements being a disturbance that lessens over time as the characters progress through their stories and meet their successes*. It's just a case where the magic of friendship works better than the integration of amplitudes.

*This is kind of an inference, since the completion isn't really seen (apart from the afterward).

Aye. While magic can be understood to some extent as a science, it is still magic.

[WavemasterRyx]

Okay, that's freaky. My posts regarding this chapter put me over 1000 posts, which changed my title to "Alicorn".

I'm not sure how to feel about this.

I wonder if I can get it changed to "Cybernetic Alicorn"

I'd say that's a pretty amusing coincidence, certainly.

In other news, I'm trying my best to work on my commentary for the chapter when I can, it's just going very slowly... Hopefully I'll have it finished in another day or two, I'm sorry for the delay, Somber.

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