Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Derpmind]

I don't know exactly what kind of story the eternal rage crowd think PH used to be, but ideally there should have been something smack damn in the first chapter that would tell them it was going to be a story they wouldn't like at all.

You cannot discredit legitimate criticism based off that.

I'm just telling Somber what I think he did most wrong: Somehow he attracted a group of readers who weren't ever going to like where the story was going. And on the subject of criticism, for the last, what is it, over a year now? For the last whatever, most of the 'criticism' coming from the "PH is so terrible we have to never get over not liking it" group basically boils down to "write a different story." Stories aren't meant to appeal to everyone, and I'm sorry that PH turned out to not be the story you wanted to read, but nothing you 4chan /mlp/ folks can say or do will make Somber rewrite the story for you. Or stop writing. Get over it already.

Also, EqD has the story update put chapter 62b as (New Part 63!) :P

[Icy Shake]

I don't know why it still surprises me that so many of you can be such ingrates.


Somber, I think you did a perfectly fine job of balancing the advantages and disadvantages of Blackjack's upgrades. And yes, there are less of Blackjack's friends, but that's going to happen, you can't have every character around all the time...

I'm sorry for how what I said came off, and I do appreciate everything, but it's hard not to wish for more of the cast, more often, because they really are such a wonderful part of the story. I guess I'm spoiled.
But I stand by my assertion that the core supporting cast is usually the best and most emotionally impacting way of seeing how Blackjack is handling everything around her, and that the interactions and relationships between them are highlights of the story of themselves.

To sum up my feelings: Ebony Dementia Darkness Ravenway is a Mary Sue. Blackjack isn't.

Or Medal Pector'al Biathalon Lula Whinny (is one, unlike Blackjack).

I'm sorry Lighthooves was a flop. I meant for it to be dramatic, but all three of my editors told me I was going WAY over the top, as did a few other folks I consulted so I went with what I did. You're right. She could have simply yanked the wires out. Ugh... Punishment is HARD! Killing him because he's about to kill folks just doesn't work. Maybe if I'd made it so BJ mercy killed him rather than let him suffer (after all, as a cyber pony he could stay like that for hours) rather than under the auspice of stopping him it might have been better.

Hm, I think it makes sense, though. Blackjack has a variety of ways to stop him, but she can't wait; if she does, he'll get the missile off. She has to act. We've established that she's not the brightest pony, and, as Icy Shake pointed out, Lighthooves is more or less manipulating her to kill him.

I wish I could explain how at the moment (I’m really exhausted, but I remember putting a lot of thought into this earlier and coming to the same conclusion), but I strongly think she should kill him. Would kill him. Not had to, and that’s one of the points of the act.
She’s always for second chances, but Lighthooves wasn’t about that. He was committed to doing terrible deeds. He couldn’t stop and refused to stop.
I don’t think Blackjack would be able to put what was going on in context. That there were ways to disable him, or prevent his work. To turn him over to the Enclave for punishment by a cruel, evil empire that is just as twisted as he ever was. That there were ways, basically, to make him incapable of doing what he demanded be done.
She would just see that, even at his lowest point, Lighthooves still needed to be stopped. Just like Deus or Gorgon, just like most of the monsters she’s faced, he needed to be destroyed. The fact that he could be made into a non-threat for this specific situation wouldn’t factor in.
There’s also the stress of the situation, the transformation that she’s endured, and a myriad of other things weighing down her mind... but I never considered her to have an entirely clear head at the end, there. What she did was one more imperfect solution for her imperfect world.

I like what she did, here, and I wouldn’t of had her do it any other way.
If people think she was un-heroic in doing so, even a bit stupid and shortsighted... that’s what Blackjack is.

It's not really that I have a problem with her killing him. I can even go with the idea that her mind is fried and she can't see the alternatives, or that she thinks killing him then makes her an executioner even if it's done to keep him from launching the rockets. The underlying problem is that the ways that I think are consistent with what seems to be going through her mind at the time don't resonate with me as a culminating event to "I'm not an executioner"; the best solution I've come up with is at the time she thinks she needs to kill him to stop the launch, but also that that makes her an executioner, and later on she realizes what other options she had, but decides she would have killed him anyway. The thing is, I'm pretty sure killing people who are actively and immediately threatening the safety of others pretty regularly, so as long as that's part of her mindset, I have trouble processing it as a big, precedent-breaking event.

I can work with her being in a state of mind that causes her to make bad decisions she otherwise might not; I can go along with her feeling guilt over what she does in those states, even after the fact when she's had time to process them; but I have trouble attaching great importance to those actions from a character arc perspective when part of the mental state is entirely consistent with her killing him for the same reason that she's killed plenty of other people before.

Again, it's not necessarily that she shouldn't have killed him; it's that I don't particularly care that she did. And that bothers me.

She was going to kill that one helpless rapist, I think, just before Lacunae killed for her.

Edit:
Oh, one of my favorite ones was when P-21 trussed that slavemaster with explosives and tried to give BJ the detonator. BJ scolded him for it, then gave it to the slaves... who proceeded to immediately press the button and start cheering following the explosion.
That was great :D

I believe that Somber has said in comments that it was Blackjack who pulled the trigger, and Lacunae was trying to make her feel better, but I don't have the energy to search the archives at the moment and it's ambiguous in-text anyway.
And yeah, the slave master was a good one, but I'm not sure what else she could have done. Maybe she could take him with her, but then it could have just turned into P-21 doing the deed while she out.

I feel like this may have been influenced by Ryx's work.

I have no problem with this. :)

That makes two of us, but I doubt we're the only ones. Somber might, but then, you can't trust his opinions. :)

Wat. That had to take some serious feats of cognitive dissonance.

I don't think so. Her big public persona was as the do-nothing Ministry Mare, after all. All the black ops and projects were, well, black ops and projects; she had some public military qualifications, but those might, if anything, have lead to people thinking (and being encouraged to think) that she was using her position in government to get a military reputation she didn't deserve.

I guess I can see how that would happen, but I guess I was just thinking that there had to be at least some fairly publicized cases of her direct battlefield involvement, like the Twice-Fought Battle and the Battle of Shattered Hoof Ridge. Even if there were big coverups involved with them, why bother hiding the fact that she was a combatant?
Oh wait. That's the Enclave History version, so facts don't need to factor in at all. I'll chalk this up to probably reading that at around 2:00 am.

Also, EqD has the story update put chapter 62b as (New Part 63!) :P

And so far, nobody in the thread's complained about the Cyber Mutant Zombie Alicorn Queen Mary Sue protagonist! It's a Christmas miracle!

Also, I just remembered that all three FoE stories I'm following split their most (or second most) recent chapters into at least two parts, and in each case it was the first time that's explicitly happened. Weird coincidence.

[Luminous Lead]

It's not really that I have a problem with her killing him. I can even go with the idea that her mind is fried and she can't see the alternatives, or that she thinks killing him then makes her an executioner even if it's done to keep him from launching the rockets. The underlying problem is that the ways that I think are consistent with what seems to be going through her mind at the time don't resonate with me as a culminating event to "I'm not an executioner"; the best solution I've come up with is at the time she thinks she needs to kill him to stop the launch, but also that that makes her an executioner, and later on she realizes what other options she had, but decides she would have killed him anyway. The thing is, I'm pretty sure killing people who are actively and immediately threatening the safety of others pretty regularly, so as long as that's part of her mindset, I have trouble processing it as a big, precedent-breaking event.

I can work with her being in a state of mind that causes her to make bad decisions she otherwise might not; I can go along with her feeling guilt over what she does in those states, even after the fact when she's had time to process them; but I have trouble attaching great importance to those actions from a character arc perspective when part of the mental state is entirely consistent with her killing him for the same reason that she's killed plenty of other people before.

Again, it's not necessarily that she shouldn't have killed him; it's that I don't particularly care that she did. And that bothers me.

Yeah, I getcha there.  There's little fanfare when this all happens. The weight of the character conflict was centered around the cyberization, rather than on the death of Lighthooves.  Killing him was obviously not something she really wanted to do at that point, but it wasn't so different from the times she's slaughtered tons of people to protect a select few.  Hardly a cold-blooded kill if the target is directly in the process of killing someone.

If it's a scene that shows Blackjack is willing to do what needs to be done, but staying close to her convictions (like she always has), then it works well.

However, if it's a scene that's meant to paint Blackjack as an executioner, then... it's not quite there.  Usually with the big important decisions were she has to decide whether to kills someone we'd see an argument with party members (but they're not there), or internal monologue with Lacunae (but she's gone now), or even a back-and-forth with the Dealer, as he's basically the Cortana to her Master Chief at this point (but he's already appeared once this chapter and his program's probably running thin [on a side note, does anyone remember how many times EC1101's been used? I seem to remember someone saying it'd burn out after about five uses]).  If this is an in-depth character moment where Blackjack is taking a plunge into execution, I'd at least expect her to use S.T.A.T.S to buy more time to think.

(*Edit* Or heck, if she remembered the ventilation orb with "Remember what Lighthooves did to Glory" in it, she'd have a "Crime" she'd be willing to "Execute" him for.  Execution implies judgement, otherwise it's Murder at worst or self-defence at best. However she's definitely railed against this cavalier attitude to justice, as she says to Lighthooves just a few moments before, "You don’t have the right [to make them pay.] Nobody does."  As far as I can see, what she does she doesn't do as punishment, an act to make him pay for what he's done, as she acknowledges he wants it too much for that to be the case.  Rather it's more like Lighthooves is a man walking down the rails who sees a train coming round the bend and rather then step off the path, decides to tie himself to the tracks.  The oncoming train's conductor doesn't "Execute" him, but since he can't find any other way to ensure the safety of his passengers, he's forced to run the crazy pedestrian over.  She made her choice back on the lift:

"Will you accept responsibility for those who die here?”
Kill one to save two.  Don’t kill one and let two die.  Which was the moral answer?  Was there one?
“Yes.  Add it to the bill.”

Lighthooves was just part of the bill.)

Then again, we've seen that Blackjack tends to be a bit more kill-happy when the rest of her peers aren't around (U-21 clubbed to death in maintenance, the drunken rampage in the museum w/ geldings, torturing enclave at Miramare, the cyber rampage at Yellow River w/ dismemberments) so the fact that she shanked him when she was all by her lonesome (Boo doesn't really count) without overthinking it isn't too surprising.

And so far, nobody in the thread's complained about the Cyber Mutant Zombie Alicorn Queen Mary Sue protagonist! It's a Christmas miracle!

 Although she IS now technically a Red-and-Black Alicorn OC   (not that there's anything wrong with that!)  Just add some green mistletoe and she'll be sporting a seasonal spirit!

Man, the Legate and Cogs are in for a TREAT when they show up again.

*Edit#2 at-5-in-the-morning-so-my-brain-is-melting* Oh shit, I just had a thought. In a society that thrives on the wilful ignorance of suffering around them, Blackjack puts down a helpless male for the continued survival of everypony else... Sound familiar to anyone?

[ChaosDX1]

Getting an account on this forum just to post once (maybe) about the latest chapter. Why not?

This chapter was amazing. Couldn't have ended better either.

Dealer is awesome for providing whatever small consolation he can in the form of the laser-etched cutie mark and text on BJ's new armor.

Feels weird thinking of how we're getting close to the end.

[MLPOCG]

It's remarkable just how much attention each new chapter of this story gets, whether it be drama or praise. My thoughts on the latest chapter:

It was lovely to see Boo talk for the first time, showing that she is becoming attached to Blackjack, the fight scene between her and Lighthooves was pretty well choreographed considering how difficult it is to write aerial battles. Blackjack becoming a cyber alicorn was a decision that I was ultimately expecting for her climactic final battle, though I was expecting this to happen before their final run into the Core rather than something that was simply caused by necessity since she had to fly up a shaft. Lighthooves however seemed to have gone truly mad by this point, solely sticking to his plan because he'd sacrificed so much already and wanted to see it through even if he seemed to deep down believe he was wrong. As for people saying that Blackjack is a mary sue, a good video to watch is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnokGcoUOmE . However I am fearing that with Blackjack being as powerful as she is, I get the feeling that she'll die at the end of the story (something I was fearing from the start)

[OneMoreDaySK]

By the way, on a completely separate note, it occurred to me earlier that all of BJ's weapons have names other than her startmetal sword (if it ever comes back, I mean).
I thought a good name for it would be Key since she uses it to open containers or doors about as often as she uses it to open people.
Thoughts, anyone?

It's a good name, swicked, though I already have images of Blackjack wielding it Kingdom Hearts style.

I'm not sure if it's a typo or not, but I was just re-reading Chapter 5 to look at Dr. Trottenheimer's diary - what is P.L.? I don't remember any projects beginning with L.
(Steelpony, Chimera, Eternity, Starfall, Redoubt, Partypooper, Horizons).

Spoiler:

[Technowolf]

There's still one big question that no one's touched on yet.  How is Blackjack going to tell P-21 and Morning Glory that she's pregnant?  How will they take it?  How will Scotch?  Is Glory going to be the surrogate (if we end up going down this road)?

Also, MLPOCG, I was going to try and find that video myself, so thanks for saving me the trouble.

[CD]

There's still one big question that no one's touched on yet.  How is Blackjack going to tell P-21 and Morning Glory that she's pregnant?  How will they take it?  How will Scotch?  Is Glory going to be the surrogate (if we end up going down this road)?

Not really sure how the others will take it, but I think Blackjack is thinking of the foal as a way to atone for all the ponies she killed. In a way, that's a good thing. She might become a bit less reckless and self-destructive because she feels she owes it to the child that she takes proper care of it.

[Mister Nikel]

Well. Chapter 63.





Wow.



Just.



Wow.

[Scienza]

By the way, on a completely separate note, it occurred to me earlier that all of BJ's weapons have names other than her startmetal sword (if it ever comes back, I mean).
I thought a good name for it would be Key since she uses it to open containers or doors about as often as she uses it to open people.
Thoughts, anyone?

It's a nice name, but maybe a bit too pleasant. The sword wants to kill.

Maybe Scythe, since it's a Reaper's blade.

Also, won't this foal have a terrible case of fetal alcohol syndrome? Among other things.

[Moodyman90]

Unless I'm mistaken due to having a horrible memory, she hasn't had a single drop of alcohol since the party until she got into the tower. So provided she doesn't have a single drop of the stuff till whatever Somber has planned for the foal happens alcohol is the least of it's problems.

That said we are talking about Queen Whiskey.

[Scienza]

Unless I'm mistaken due to having a horrible memory, she hasn't had a single drop of alcohol since the party until she got into the tower. So provided she doesn't have a single drop of the stuff till whatever Somber has planned for the foal happens alcohol is the least of it's problems.

That said we are talking about Queen Whiskey.

I saw a pale rump bearing a cutie mark of a camera and attached to a stallion curled up with a bottle of whiskey.  I tugged it from his grasp… he could use it as a weapon, after all.

Okay.  Maybe I took a long pull off it as well, to steady my nerves.

Uh....

[Retl]

Finished the chapter about an hour ago. I had fun. But I love things that make me laugh, and the chapter had plenty of that. <3

A Few Typoes then Stuff I Liked:

Responding to Other Stuff:

[Icy Shake]

Regarding weapon names, Blackjack's had plenty that were unnamed. Also, all of the names were given by their true or original bearers, or whoever gave the weapons to the original holders, or after them: Vigilance was named by someone in the line of Tarot and Card Trick; Duty and Sacrifice's names were there before she acquired them, as was Penance's; Folly was presumably named by other researchers or people who knew about his work and his death.
That said, it seems very possible that the sword may be named at some point, as it has more personality than most weapons. Given its wielder and its association with the Eater, I'd think it might get a name along the lines of "the Maiden's [x]," but [x] as a body part (like "fang" or "claw") doesn't work that well for me because horses don't have sharp teeth or claws (though looking back, season four did retcon Nightmare Moon to having fangs (or she had fangs before banishment, but not after (except for maybe a few frames while scowling, if you look very closely and pause at the right time), and Luna either couldn't or chose not to change her teeth to fangs in "Luna Eclipsed"), and it appears there was a perception that she did as suggested by "Luna Eclipsed," so that might work). Otherwise, abstract concepts could still work, like "the Maiden's Fury," or "Fury" for ease of use.

Old Chapter Editing Matters:

[Scienza]

Oh, and looking through again, I noticed this.

Typo:

Mmm... Ovid snack cakes.

[Moodyman90]

Unless I'm mistaken due to having a horrible memory, she hasn't had a single drop of alcohol since the party until she got into the tower. So provided she doesn't have a single drop of the stuff till whatever Somber has planned for the foal happens alcohol is the least of it's problems.

That said we are talking about Queen Whiskey.

I saw a pale rump bearing a cutie mark of a camera and attached to a stallion curled up with a bottle of whiskey.  I tugged it from his grasp… he could use it as a weapon, after all.

Okay.  Maybe I took a long pull off it as well, to steady my nerves.

Uh....

she hasn't had a single drop of alcohol since the party until she got into the tower

Once again, I do have a horrible memory so the last time I remembered her drinking anything alcoholic was at the party, but it was hard to miss where she took a pull of whiskey in the chapter. And that said, as much as one shouldn't drink during pregnancy, one long pull of whiskey this early into it shouldn't do too much damage compared to everything else and like I said, as long as she doesn't drinking anything else from now on there should no be a problem.

[O. Hinds]

Finished the chapter about an hour ago. I had fun. But I love things that make me laugh, and the chapter had plenty of that. <3

A Few Typoes then Stuff I Liked:

Responding to Other Stuff:

Oh, and looking through again, I noticed this.

Typo:

Mmm... Ovid snack cakes.

Ah, thank you both.

Regarding weapon names, Blackjack's had plenty that were unnamed. Also, all of the names were given by their true or original bearers, or whoever gave the weapons to the original holders, or after them: Vigilance was named by someone in the line of Tarot and Card Trick; Duty and Sacrifice's names were there before she acquired them, as was Penance's; Folly was presumably named by other researchers or people who knew about his work and his death.
That said, it seems very possible that the sword may be named at some point, as it has more personality than most weapons. Given its wielder and its association with the Eater, I'd think it might get a name along the lines of "the Maiden's [x]," but [x] as a body part (like "fang" or "claw") doesn't work that well for me because horses don't have sharp teeth or claws (though looking back, season four did retcon Nightmare Moon to having fangs (or she had fangs before banishment, but not after (except for maybe a few frames while scowling, if you look very closely and pause at the right time), and Luna either couldn't or chose not to change her teeth to fangs in "Luna Eclipsed"), and it appears there was a perception that she did as suggested by "Luna Eclipsed," so that might work). Otherwise, abstract concepts could still work, like "the Maiden's Fury," or "Fury" for ease of use.

Old Chapter Editing Matters:

Ah, thank you very much as always.  We on the writing team are pretty much in awe of you.

Oh, one unfortunate matter, though: it has recently been brought to my attention that I may have been referring to you with an incorrect gender; if this is true, I apologize.  Which pronouns would you prefer me to use?

[Icy Shake]

Oh, one unfortunate matter, though: it has recently been brought to my attention that I may have been referring to you with an incorrect gender; if this is true, I apologize.  Which pronouns would you prefer me to use?

Well, we've only interacted via text-based media and I'm not exactly making an effort to present as any particular gender online, so I certainly wouldn't hold it against you if you guessed wrong. That said, the he/him/his basket is the correct one.
Out of curiosity, which were you using?

[Derpmind]

Found this in the reddit thread over here.

[O. Hinds]

Oh, one unfortunate matter, though: it has recently been brought to my attention that I may have been referring to you with an incorrect gender; if this is true, I apologize.  Which pronouns would you prefer me to use?

Well, we've only interacted via text-based media and I'm not exactly making an effort to present as any particular gender online, so I certainly wouldn't hold it against you if you guessed wrong. That said, the he/him/his basket is the correct one.
Out of curiosity, which were you using?

Ah, that one. Thank you for your understanding, but it turns out that my guess was correct. :)

[Moodyman90]

Know what weapon I miss? Blackjack's original melee weapon, the nightstick. It didn't last long but her escape from the prison the other chapter when she picked up another one made me a bit happy.

[WavemasterRyx]

Found this in the reddit thread over here.

Well thank you, Derpmind, this was just what I needed.

[Scienza]

Know what weapon I miss? Blackjack's original melee weapon, the nightstick. It didn't last long but her escape from the prison the other chapter when she picked up another one made me a bit happy.

Same goes for the shotgun. If I remember correctly, she hasn't used one in a while.

[Icy Shake]

Know what weapon I miss? Blackjack's original melee weapon, the nightstick. It didn't last long but her escape from the prison the other chapter when she picked up another one made me a bit happy.

Same goes for the shotgun. If I remember correctly, she hasn't used one in a while.

Well, the best part about that was that it wasn't "the" shotgun: it was a running gag that she lost or broke them really quickly. But I guess that was kind of covered in the "used one in a while."

[Caoimhe]

Called it on bj being the now to be preggers and not Glory! Called it called it called it! You thought I was just absent minded but noooo I knew all along deep in my mind! Dance puppets! Muhahahah. 

Erm, ahem, jolly good show, Somber.

Anyway I thought that was all fantastic. Boo needs to earn her cutie mark now and have her markmitzvah party since her special talent is fluency in Pokemon.

[Vergil]

I have to closely monitor my Boo intake lest I get diabetes at this point.

[SilentCarto]

Chapter 62b Commentary... with a special guest commenter:

Editing:

Additional Edits:

[O. Hinds]

Chapter 62b Commentary... with a special guest commenter:

Editing:

Additional Edits:

Ah, thank you.

Scoured.

Why?

It noted her PipBuck clicking as she walked earlier, too. I take it that means she lost part of her hoof to the flashbang as well.

Oh? I just assumed that it was for echolocation.

Then you can ask her to marry you and give her an engagement wing!

:D

Or you could use the one Steel Rain gave you.

...What?

[Adalbertus]

It really annoys me that every time the new chapter pops up I want to post something relevant here or express my opinion and there's 10+ pages of comments already, that I really don't have the time or patience to read through. Then I feel like a stupid, lazy little kid and I louse all my courage to speak <_<
But yeah, that aside, and no, I did not read through those other posts, forgive me please, I should be working now anyway, here’s my  opinion:

Spoiler:

Ok, that's it for my thoughts about the chapter. I only wanted to add that I really enjoy this fanfic, probably more than the original FoE.

[Silver136]

I was thinking about BJ's foal that's STILL IN HER AS SHE FALLS INTO THE CORE. Wouldn't enervation still be an issue for an unborn, non-cybernetic foal?

Also, on the topic of cyber alicorny-ness and Mary Sues. I thought the California thing was an interesting touch. It didn't make Blackjack a Mary Sue in any way, considering that she can't use her new powers without a massive power drain. Also, I couldn't help but wonder if the alicorn thing was Somber poking fun at the fact that BJ is Twilight's descendant since she became an alicorn in the show. I believe I remember BJ saying something along the lines of I felt closer to Twilight then I ever had before. But I've got a pretty crappy memory too so...

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