Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Meleagridis]

Hey guys/Somber, I'm trying to learn how to vector and so far I feel I've done okay.
My next step is to see if I can do backgrounds, locations and the like.
Anyone got any suggestions for something I could put together?

Well, the Core could always do with some more pictures. You'll probably find plenty of reference for subway tunnels, too.

Personally, though, I'd really like to see the Reaper stadium, with the contrast of ruined building and lush, green field alive with gangs and passers-by. Sound interesting?

[Kippershy]

Doing from scratch or vectoring?

Scratch using vectoring. Vectoring =/= tracing, despite what I said to you yesterday. Vecotoring is the method, but to try vector something like a pony without tracing the first few times is madness.

[Kippershy]

Hey guys/Somber, I'm trying to learn how to vector and so far I feel I've done okay.
My next step is to see if I can do backgrounds, locations and the like.
Anyone got any suggestions for something I could put together?

Well, the Core could always do with some more pictures. You'll probably find plenty of reference for subway tunnels, too.

Personally, though, I'd really like to see the Reaper stadium, with the contrast of ruined building and lush, green field alive with gangs and passers-by. Sound interesting?

Not going to be able to do fine details like ponies AND the location, but the ruins of the stadium sounds interesting.
I'll definitely need some reference for that, not to trace, but inspiration and reference for how a ruined stadium might look.
Doesn't help that I'm drunk right now.

But it's definitely a good suggestion.

[Katarn]

Maybe try entrance to BJ's Stable?

[Kippershy]

That's another good idea, and one I could easily get a reference for using the fallout wikia.
Anyone remember if Somber made any specific details on the outside of it?

[RoboRed]

Here's a ruined stadium from gears of war, kipper: http://gearsofwar.wikia.com/wiki/Thrashball_(map)

[tylertoon2]

I vote for an eventual time where the group comes across a stage ponies renacting various events from Blackjack's events in Hoofington ala the penultimate episode of Avatar The Last Airbender ( which I finally got around to seeing all of. Omg), wherein the team sneaks in and watches while making snarky commentary on the innacuries.

 Better yet, why not a few radio dramas, like THE ADVENTURES OF HERBERT "DARING" DASHWOOD from Fallout 3.

Ooh. New person. Yay and a fellow member of the bay state too!


P-21 is probably my favorite character. The man as sneaky as batman with a thing for vengance and justice that makes garrus look forgiving. I would really like to see him in a solo story, dealing out wasteland justice in the night and being a father and teacher in the day. The man is built for Noir.

All this maiden business. I would really like it if boo did turn out to be the maiden and no one realized it. I can only imagine how pissed the Legate is going to be finding that out.  I really don't think that the qualifications of being the maiden are that dependent on virginity.

That or I want the whole thing to turn out to be a sham. With a point being made about controling ones own destiny and such.  I really like it when villains find out that the entire time their entire train of logic was wrong.
 Lancer being a virgin would be funny as all hell to me. 

But please Blackjack. Don't give the Brooding Hot Stallion what he wants. Give em what he deserves. The bluest balls in the wastes.

[Icy Shake]

But please Blackjack. Don't give the Brooding Hot Stallion what he wants. Give em what he deserves. The bluest balls in the wastes.

At the cost of giving herself blue . . . ovaries? Labia? Eh, whatever.

Anyway, I just reread chapter eighteen. I had nearly forgotten how strongly Blackjack took to the bass, and how that had affected her and her perception of herself. Maybe that is part of why she didn't really remember exactly what happened with her cutie mark story: she never really found her talent and passion, and defaulting to a second best didn't leave her with the impact to retain the memory.

Also, this was a competent horror chapter, if not as good in that aspect as "Play." I'm looking forward to the Vanity orbs, because the way he died originally left me thinking suicide, but I'm pretty sure that isn't right. Harpica is another example of using a bare minimum of speech and action to rapidly flesh out a character, and I'm happy I'll be seeing little bits with her in the future. Blueblood, of course, was rendered very well, hitting a number of bases from desperation, to disdain, to vengeful psychopathy and more, with rapid—but smooth and entirely believable—transitions between them.

On that note, after Rampage was decapitated, her body did continue to walk for a bit before collapsing, so I might just contort my thoughts to believe that what happens after she becomes decapitated depends on her state at the time: in this case, since she just dragged herself out of a well and probably wasn't in the best shape, she rapidly collapsed; in fifty eight, she was fresher and the body managed to get along better for a time.

Running thoughts:

Editing:

[Luminous Lead]

But please Blackjack. Don't give the Brooding Hot Stallion what he wants. Give em what he deserves. The bluest balls in the wastes.

I'm pretty sure '21 is really attached to those.  I don't think he'd like to donate them, even for Blackjack's sake.

[Meleagridis]

That or I want the whole thing to turn out to be a sham. With a point being made about controling ones own destiny and such.  I really like it when villains find out that the entire time their entire train of logic was wrong.
 Lancer being a virgin would be funny as all hell to me. 

Nominate Lancer for Maiden of the Stars.

[FeatherDust]

All this maiden business. I would really like it if boo did turn out to be the maiden and no one realized it. I can only imagine how pissed the Legate is going to be finding that out.  I really don't think that the qualifications of being the maiden are that dependent on virginity.

Y'know, I realized I missed something there.  Boo or Boo/Blackjack Combo can't be the Maiden of the Stars if the prophecy is going to be true.  Boo's body isn't cyborged, and that's a requirement: "The Star Maiden is she who is born from the cursed soil of the damned city. She will be flesh and steel, touched by the stars and chosen as their champion. Where she travels, chaos and strife will follow."

That or I want the whole thing to turn out to be a sham. With a point being made about controling ones own destiny and such.  I really like it when villains find out that the entire time their entire train of logic was wrong.

Nah, you can't really do that and have it be at all satisfying.  You can twist a prophecy, but there's really only two ways to go about it:

1) The prophecy is false, and either the hero buys into it on his own, or a vastly powerful force created the prophecy and is setting him up to fulfill it for their own purposes. In either case the hero only succeeds when he says "Screw Destiny!" and forges his own path (and, in the second case, usually destroys the prophet in the process).  That's the plot of Final Fantasy X, Matrix Revolutions, and so on.

2) The prophecy is real, but comes true in a totally different way than anyone expected (or is self-fulfilling, and trying to avoid that fate is what brings it about).  This is by far the more common example -- Oedipus Rex, MacBeth (and Tolkien's rewrite of it with the Witch-King of the Nazgul*), every prophecy ever in Wheel of Time, and too many others to even try to mention.


From a literary standpoint, it's boring to have a prophecy that comes true in exactly the way it seems like it would.  You see it in fairy tales occasionally, but it's a problem because you explain what's going to happen, and then it happens exactly that way.  That's just telling the story twice.  So you want to either have the prophecy twisted in some way or have it be false but a key to understanding what's really going on.

Equally it's boring to have a prophecy that's false and doesn't happen.  Why bother building up a huge plot point like that only to say, "Never mind, it's just fake."  You can pull that off, but only as a short-term thing.  The hero hears the prophecy, says, "Eh, screw that," and breaks it right away, and the believers are shown to be dupes or idiots (or both).  Most commonly this is a simple plot device to explain why none of the locals went and performed the task already, thus leaving it for the hero to do. (But even in that case, you have to explain where the prophecy came from and why the prophet would make one up in the first place.)


* In MacBeth, it's prophesied that "[no man] of woman born shall harm MacBeth", and later he's killed by MacDuff who was "from his mother's womb untimely ripped" -- that is, delivered by caesarean section.  Tolkien felt that was a ripoff of a twist, as leaving your mother's womb is "being born" no matter how it happens.  So he wrote what amounts to a How It Should Have Ended with the prophecy that "not by the hand of man will [the Witch-King] fall", and then having him killed by a combo attack by Eowyn (a woman, not a man) and Meriadoc (a hobbit, not a Man).

[Derpmind]

So I don't remember if the prophecy is detailed elsewhere, but here's one from Ch. 42:

“The Star Maiden is she who is born from the cursed soil of the damned city.  She will be flesh and steel, touched by the stars and chosen as their champion.  Where she travels, chaos and strife will follow,” Xanthe said as she trotted in our wake.  Why, I couldn’t imagine.  “It is she that shall bear evil from the ground, usher in the final days of the world, snuff out the sun forever and call down the moon.  She shall summon storms, unleash plague, command unholy fire, destroy all in her path and all who follow in her wake.  Female shall desire female, male shall desire male, and unholy coupling between the species will commence where she travels.”

“Damn…” Bluebelle snickered and leered at the zebra.  “I’m getting moist right now just hearing all this.”

First up, if this is some ancient prophecy, was steel even around when the original version was created, or is it a more modern addition to the story? Did this prophecy even exist before the war?

Born from the cursed soil: You can stretch this one to fit pretty much everypony that lives around the Hoof. Morning Glory can be considered born from cursed soil because her mother came from the ground. Nightmare Moon was born in Hoofington when Luna turned to the dark side.

Flesh and steel, touched by the stars and chosen as their champion: So far, this only really fits Blackjack and maybe Dawn, but that could change.

Where she travels, chaos and strife will follow: This really doesn't apply as specifically to Blackjack as you might think. How many other wastelanders travel a bunch and sow chaos and strife where they go? Littlepip and the old Hoofington 6 certainly did this constantly. (That previous sentence, I don't even grammar how it should have been written. Not that I try to keep things perfectly grammatically correct often, but I like to at least know how 'proper' grammar works. Please help?)

It is she that shall bear evil from the ground, usher in the final days of the world, snuff out the sun forever and call down the moon.  She shall summon storms, unleash plague, command unholy fire, destroy all in her path and all who follow in her wake: I could pick this into its pieces, but reading this section gives me two impressions: One, this is a bunch of typical apocalypse drek. Two, the Hoofington Megaspell Facility Factory whatever the Fudge it's called.

Female shall desire female, male shall desire male, and unholy coupling between the species will commence where she travels: Silly homophobia, you're so cute when you pop up in places that totally discredit you.

Nah, you can't really do that and have it be at all satisfying.  You can twist a prophecy, but there's really only two ways to go about it:

I really like your analysis of prophecies in fiction, (hey, now you're one brohoof ahead of me! :P) but you're narrowing your view of possibilities to what's most commonly done. Somber can have the prophecy simply be a way to characterize the Remnant's culture. It doesn't have to be true or false, it simply has to be something that Remnant zebras realistically believe in.

Also, the prophecy we've seen might be very different form the original prophecy, twisted to suit the Legate's agenda. There might be a much more 'real' prophecy that we have yet to hear (if we ever do).

[tylertoon2]

But please Blackjack. Don't give the Brooding Hot Stallion what he wants. Give em what he deserves. The bluest balls in the wastes.

I'm pretty sure '21 is really attached to those.  I don't think he'd like to donate them, even for Blackjack's sake.

I walked right into that didn't I?


Also everything the guy above me says makes sense. I can't do those words justice.

EDIT: Same with the words above them too!

"and unholy coupling between the species will commence where she travels"

Just noticed this. Holy hell. Looks like Lance might get laid after all.

"male shall desire male"

and maybe not by the one he is expecting either. All aboard the crack ship every pony! Don't forget your floatees!

[Derpmind]

Also everything the guy above me says makes sense. I can't do those words justice.

I don't want just ice. I want a cup, and some kind of juice, and a muffin! You don't need to be better or equal to others in a discussion, you just have to be unique. State something that the rest of us haven't thought before, so that we in turn may make new thoughts and more delicious talk! Guy above me, say something, even if it makes no sense or food whatsoever.

[FeatherDust]

First up, if this is some ancient prophecy, was steel even around when the original version was created, or is it a more modern addition to the story? Did this prophecy even exist before the war?

Well, in our world, steel has been around in some form since around 2000 BC, and wootz (aka Damascus) steel have been around since like 300 BC, with much greater distribution in the fifth or sixth century AD.  By 1000 AD everyone knew how to make crucible steel, even if there were no blast furnaces until the 1600s.

Which is to say, it's totally reasonable that even an ancient tribe from long before Nightmare Moon arrived would likely have experience with steel.  And that's assuming the prophecy of the Maiden even is more than 1000 years old.  It's just as likely to have been made in the Celestine period, after NMM's banishment.  (I don't see how anyone could have thought those lines applied to Luna, since she was supposedly the first Maiden, but anyway...)

I really like your analysis of prophecies in fiction, (hey, now you're one brohoof ahead of me! :P) but you're narrowing your view of possibilities to what's most commonly done. Somber can have the prophecy simply be a way to characterize the Remnant's culture. It doesn't have to be true or false, it simply has to be something that Remnant zebras realistically believe in.

That's true, but I think it's too accurate so far to be dismissed as merely a religious belief.  They predicted cyborging, presumably long before a phrase like "flesh and steel" could be possibly taken literally.

usher in the final days of the world, snuff out the sun forever and call down the moon.

Sadly, not all twists are good ones, and these are the lines that worry me.

At its worst, a poorly performed twist makes it feel like the prophet (or rather, the author) was intentionally trying to muddy the issue by throwing in irrelevant details just because they could be easily misinterpreted.

Like the prophecy says that to kill the villain, "The river must run red," and it turns out that doesn't mean vast bloodshed, but rather the cat's name is "Missouri" and letting him run off after painting him red was critical to their plan.

Or I recall there was one book where the prophecy was that if they destroyed the bad guy "Earth will be no more" or some such language, and it turned out that when the bad guy was destroyed, they renamed the planet.  I mean, technically that's true, but why bring it up, and why phrase it that way, unless they were just TRYING to be obnoxiously confusing?!

There's gonna have to be a really good twist explanation to "usher in the final days of the world" and "snuff out the sun forever" or it's gonna feel like a ripoff.

I will accept that those might not be part of the original prophecy and were a poor interpretation of the actual text, or were intentionally added later by somebody with an agenda against the Maiden.  (Such as Legate?)  That'd still be kinda awkward, but better than a bad explanation.

So I don't remember if the prophecy is detailed elsewhere, but here's one from Ch. 42:

There's a bit more later in that same chapter:
"You're the Maiden!  The champion of the stars!  The bringer of all things evil!  With your left hoof you will bring down the fires of the sun, and with your right you will call down the moon!"

That's the one we think refers to using her left hoof's pipbuck to target a firing of Celestia One's sunbeam-laser.  The right hoof calling the moon probably refers to the moonrocks necessary to destroy the Eater.  Possibly activating Project Horizons.

[O. Hinds]

But please Blackjack. Don't give the Brooding Hot Stallion what he wants. Give em what he deserves. The bluest balls in the wastes.

At the cost of giving herself blue . . . ovaries? Labia? Eh, whatever.

Anyway, I just reread chapter eighteen. I had nearly forgotten how strongly Blackjack took to the bass, and how that had affected her and her perception of herself. Maybe that is part of why she didn't really remember exactly what happened with her cutie mark story: she never really found her talent and passion, and defaulting to a second best didn't leave her with the impact to retain the memory.

Also, this was a competent horror chapter, if not as good in that aspect as "Play." I'm looking forward to the Vanity orbs, because the way he died originally left me thinking suicide, but I'm pretty sure that isn't right. Harpica is another example of using a bare minimum of speech and action to rapidly flesh out a character, and I'm happy I'll be seeing little bits with her in the future. Blueblood, of course, was rendered very well, hitting a number of bases from desperation, to disdain, to vengeful psychopathy and more, with rapid—but smooth and entirely believable—transitions between them.

On that note, after Rampage was decapitated, her body did continue to walk for a bit before collapsing, so I might just contort my thoughts to believe that what happens after she becomes decapitated depends on her state at the time: in this case, since she just dragged herself out of a well and probably wasn't in the best shape, she rapidly collapsed; in fifty eight, she was fresher and the body managed to get along better for a time.

Running thoughts:

Editing:

Ah, thank you very much as always.

"and unholy coupling between the species will commence where she travels"

Just noticed this. Holy hell. Looks like Lance might get laid after all.

"male shall desire male"

and maybe not by the one he is expecting either. All aboard the crack ship every pony! Don't forget your floatees!

Yes, I noticed and pointed this out recently too.  :)
I think that that was in the chat thread, though, which probably explains how it got lost.

[SilentCarto]

Anyway, I just reread chapter eighteen. I had nearly forgotten how strongly Blackjack took to the bass, and how that had affected her and her perception of herself. Maybe that is part of why she didn't really remember exactly what happened with her cutie mark story: she never really found her talent and passion, and defaulting to a second best didn't leave her with the impact to retain the memory.

Well, remember, that's not actually BJ displaying an untapped skill for music. It's Octavia's soul guiding her hooves. Anyone could play just as well in her position. It's ultimately not about BJ finding a different talent so much as simply fueling her thoughts on how environment affects a pony's cutie mark and destiny.

On one hoof it's kind of sad that an environment can cut out someone's options like that, but on the other, it would really, really suck to be fated to be a great musician in a place with no music. On hoof number three, that's kind of the point of 'destiny' -- your cutie mark isn't being assigned randomly, and by definition, it's not going to be something you can't feel fulfilled by. But on the fourth hoof, "life will find a way" -- if someone has a mark that seems contraindicated by their environment, it may be a sign that they're destined to shake things up.

That's the plot of Final Fantasy X, Matrix Revolutions, and so on.

Matrix what now?

I don't see how anyone could have thought those lines applied to Luna, since she was supposedly the first Maiden, but anyway...

Well... she did make armor out of Starmetal. I also want to note that Vitiosus seems to think that he can kill the Maiden before she accomplishes her destiny. So maybe this is one of those "unless you do something" prophecies.

There's gonna have to be a really good twist explanation to "usher in the final days of the world" and "snuff out the sun forever" or it's gonna feel like a ripoff.

I will accept that those might not be part of the original prophecy and were a poor interpretation of the actual text, or were intentionally added later by somebody with an agenda against the Maiden.  (Such as Legate?)  That'd still be kinda awkward, but better than a bad explanation.

Maybe that was one of the damning facts that seeded Sekashi's doubt. After all, once she found out that Vitiosus had altered the prophecies he was quoting, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to start wondering what else he had lied about.

"Hans... are we the baddies?"

[Meleagridis]

Well, remember, that's not actually BJ displaying an untapped skill for music. It's Octavia's soul guiding her hooves. Anyone could play just as well in her position. It's ultimately not about BJ finding a different talent so much as simply fueling her thoughts on how environment affects a pony's cutie mark and destiny.

Wouldn't play for P-21, though. Octavia could just be bitter about blue bucks or something, but maybe BJ had a shred of talent in that area. Or something else Tavi appreciated.

[Icy Shake]

Anyway, I just reread chapter eighteen. I had nearly forgotten how strongly Blackjack took to the bass, and how that had affected her and her perception of herself. Maybe that is part of why she didn't really remember exactly what happened with her cutie mark story: she never really found her talent and passion, and defaulting to a second best didn't leave her with the impact to retain the memory.

Well, remember, that's not actually BJ displaying an untapped skill for music. It's Octavia's soul guiding her hooves. Anyone could play just as well in her position. It's ultimately not about BJ finding a different talent so much as simply fueling her thoughts on how environment affects a pony's cutie mark and destiny.

On one hoof it's kind of sad that an environment can cut out someone's options like that, but on the other, it would really, really suck to be fated to be a great musician in a place with no music. On hoof number three, that's kind of the point of 'destiny' -- your cutie mark isn't being assigned randomly, and by definition, it's not going to be something you can't feel fulfilled by. But on the fourth hoof, "life will find a way" -- if someone has a mark that seems contraindicated by their environment, it may be a sign that they're destined to shake things up.

Oh, I know that that's at least part of it. But judging from the much less favorable reaction to P-21, I'm not convinced that it's necessarily the whole story. After all, even if the aptitude comes from Octavia, the emotion may not, especially given her similar reactions to music at other times.

As for the cutie mark and destiny, well, I try not to take too much stock in the destiny angle, see this as more of a wistful counterfactual, and would be skeptical of a mostly forward-looking/prophetic interpretation to a cutie mark. As for Blackjack herself, and, well, all of 99 (but her especially), what else would happen when your entire life consists of going through the motions, and even outside of your responsibilities you are stymied because of who your society says you have to be? Let that go long enough, and as the Goldblum says, "Life finds a way" and she ends up with something she doesn't entirely understand.

[SilentCarto]

Wouldn't play for P-21, though. Octavia could just be bitter about blue bucks or something, but maybe BJ had a shred of talent in that area. Or something else Tavi appreciated.

Or maybe P-21 just wasn't open to being guided that way. At the time, he was holding onto a huge amount of rage -- he might have been afraid of what would happen if he stopped focusing and just let himself feel.

[SilentCarto]

As for the cutie mark and destiny, well, I try not to take too much stock in the destiny angle, see this as more of a wistful counterfactual, and would be skeptical of a mostly forward-looking/prophetic interpretation to a cutie mark.

Well, I know of at least one cutie mark that was very specifically prophetic. Twilight's. Her cutie mark is the Element of Magic as it appeared on Celestia's head in a book that was probably centuries old by the time she was born. (Keep your eyes open for more confirmation of that in the S4 opener!)

As for Blackjack herself, and, well, all of 99 (but her especially), what else would happen when your entire life consists of going through the motions, and even outside of your responsibilities you are stymied because of who your society says you have to be? Let that go long enough, and as the Goldblum says, "Life finds a way" and she ends up with something she doesn't entirely understand.

That was kinda my point. It's not like you get a random talent when you're born and you just have to hope you stumble your way into it. I see a cutie mark as a sort of minor enlightenment; it manifests when you understand and accept your place in the world. For example, Applejack didn't get her cutie mark for doing anything -- it was a purely mental shift, when she reunited with her family and realized how important that particular patch of ground was to her. That's my view of it, anyway.

[Moodyman90]

Really cutie marks in general are really vague and seemingly random with when they pop up and for what reason.

In a meta sense it depends on who's writing the story and their ideas, but in universe it's really, well, random.

Some show up after a pony does a certain action. Others from personal discovery. Some reflect the pony's name and others seemed tied in with family.
And then we get into the deeper symbolism of it all. Like how three flowers can represent the love of teaching children while  a cloud with a rainbow lightning bolt represents a love of speed, and I guess loyalty as well.

We've already talked about Blackjack's cutie mark here a number of times to various ends.

But as of right now, meaning this is very liable to change, my headcanon is that cutie marks represent either a pony's true calling, a reflection of themselves, and/or whatever they want it to mean. In short, cutie marks are like ink blot test. They only have the meanings the ponies give them and the truest meaning being in the subconscious of the owner.

[Luminous Lead]

Well, remember, that's not actually BJ displaying an untapped skill for music. It's Octavia's soul guiding her hooves. Anyone could play just as well in her position. It's ultimately not about BJ finding a different talent so much as simply fueling her thoughts on how environment affects a pony's cutie mark and destiny.

Wouldn't play for P-21, though. Octavia could just be bitter about blue bucks or something, but maybe BJ had a shred of talent in that area. Or something else Tavi appreciated.

Octavia appreciated the delivery and reading of her mail.  The Double Bass was the reward for completing the quest "Objective: deliver Flank’s mail."

I ignored the amused hallucination as I tore open the envelope.  I wasn’t prying, I was reading it to Octavia… or rather her bones… okay, getting away from creepy thoughts now!  

hidden for length:

From the taped-up cabinet came a soft thunk, making me jump to my hooves.

[Meleagridis]

Right, Glass was Image.

I guess that makes sense. And she stuck with BJ (letting her play in that quartet) out of gratitude or maybe just because someone was finally there. After 200 years. Of waiting in a cabinet. Damn.

Still, I kinda wish we could get some sort of hard and certain, "yes," from someone in the story. Perhaps we'll see the doublebass again sometime?

[Moodyman90]

We may if they ever go back to Chapel again.

Last I remember seeing the doublebass was when she was being used as a shield by the foals Blackjack gave her to in that fight a few chapters back.

[Technowolf]

Yeah, BJ gave Octavia to the foals of Chapel, ponies she knew would use the instrument.

[Icy Shake]

As for Blackjack herself, and, well, all of 99 (but her especially), what else would happen when your entire life consists of going through the motions, and even outside of your responsibilities you are stymied because of who your society says you have to be? Let that go long enough, and as the Goldblum says, "Life finds a way" and she ends up with something she doesn't entirely understand.

That was kinda my point. It's not like you get a random talent when you're born and you just have to hope you stumble your way into it. I see a cutie mark as a sort of minor enlightenment; it manifests when you understand and accept your place in the world. For example, Applejack didn't get her cutie mark for doing anything -- it was a purely mental shift, when she reunited with her family and realized how important that particular patch of ground was to her. That's my view of it, anyway.

Sorry for misreading you like that; rereading your post today, it's much more obvious that there wasn't a disagreement there: I can only plead fatigue.

As for the cutie mark and destiny, well, I try not to take too much stock in the destiny angle, see this as more of a wistful counterfactual, and would be skeptical of a mostly forward-looking/prophetic interpretation to a cutie mark.

Well, I know of at least one cutie mark that was very specifically prophetic. Twilight's. Her cutie mark is the Element of Magic as it appeared on Celestia's head in a book that was probably centuries old by the time she was born. (Keep your eyes open for more confirmation of that in the S4 opener!)

Her cutie mark features five six-pointed stars around a central one. Hers was prophetic of the fact that she would be the bearer of the element.
If there was any question in Celestia's mind as to whether to make Twilight her protege before Twilight's cutie mark appeared, there certainly weren't any afterward.

In any case, I personally think the six-pointed star is the equestrian symbol for magic/friendship, like how a heart is a symbol for love, which is why Twilight's cutie mark indicates her special talent is magic.

In fact, on my Trixie pony toy, Trixie has six-pointed star sparkles in the moon-shaped magical swath the wand is creating... though, upon a google search, that doesn't appear to be canon to the show...

I can't argue that there's anything wrong with seeing Twilight's cutie mark as prophetic, but that's not quite the way I look at it. Perhaps I'm just being obstinate (and maybe season four will force me to reevaluate my assessment) but I'm with you through the symbolism, and probably even the influence it likely had on Celestia's choice to take on Twilight as a student. But I just see it—at least primarily—as her getting a cutie mark about magic more generally, even if it, in conjunction with the magical outburst, led to her becoming the Bearer of Magic. After all, even taking the more expansive view of the meaning of the cutie mark, it would still indicate her as a strong candidate for it.
TL,DR: I guess I see it as potentially a minor (possibly) self-fulfilling prophesy that may not even have informed Princess Celestia's decision, and quite possibly just Equestrian symbolism for lower-case-m magic.

[HillBilly-Drew]

i thought bj played quite well

[SilentCarto]

Her cutie mark features five six-pointed stars around a central one. Hers was prophetic of the fact that she would be the bearer of the element.
If there was any question in Celestia's mind as to whether to make Twilight her protege before Twilight's cutie mark appeared, there certainly weren't any afterward.

That's true, but the "six points, five stars" thing is only really visible in retrospect. But I do agree that the cutie mark's appearance would have confirmed Celestia's decision -- she undoubtedly recognized the symbol immediately.

Last I remember seeing the doublebass was when she was being used as a shield by the foals Blackjack gave her to in that fight a few chapters back.

Octavia is best bulwark!

Sorry for misreading you like that; rereading your post today, it's much more obvious that there wasn't a disagreement there: I can only plead fatigue.

No! There can be no forgiveness for this transgression! There must be retribution!

I'm with you through the symbolism, and probably even the influence it likely had on Celestia's choice to take on Twilight as a student. But I just see it—at least primarily—as her getting a cutie mark about magic more generally, even if it, in conjunction with the magical outburst, led to her becoming the Bearer of Magic. After all, even taking the more expansive view of the meaning of the cutie mark, it would still indicate her as a strong candidate for it.

I get the sense that you might be resisting any prophetic implications because they could seem to reduce Twi's victory to a preordained certainty. Am I off base? If that's your concern, I don't think it does. She's still responsible for being who she is and making the choices she makes.

[Kippershy]

If anyone wants to see Lancer screwing Blackjack, there's now a picture I can link you to.
It came up after anon suggested he wanted to see them fucking (as I've also said before) and someone else gave it a little paragraph that convinced the artist to do it.

"Lancer: I WILL DESTROY THE MAIDEN
Blackjack: YES, DESTROY THE MAIDEN, FUCKING DESTROY HER"
Lancer can't admit he loves destroying the maiden,
Blackjack can't help but admit she loves him destroying the maiden.

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