Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[RoboRed]

snip:

Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.

he's just saying: "My characters are all big and mighty. Kkat's characters NEEDED them all along!" and yes, he has said this in a lot of situations, and you know? A lot of people are sick of it.

I'd like to see proof of this.

[Guest]

If Lacunae mentally dies and then someone begins controlling her body before teleporting off without saying a word to Blackjack... if you put it so she has Twilights C.M...
THEN I'll accept it. THEN I'll be okay with it without making any fuss at all (promise!).
But if Blackjack somehow says to her: "OH, go save Pip!"?

Like I say, it can be done, but it needs to happen OFF SCREEN. For the love of god, please let it be implied and not proven.

Kipper et al., canonically, in FOE, assuming that Pip wasn't just hallucinating, the alicorn straight-up did have Twilight's cutie mark. I guess this could be retconned (as opposed to the usual route, which I always prefer when deviating from FOE standard canon - specifically, expansion and subversion, which changes canon without actually breaking it) and tbh I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it personally (I'm not overly concerned with canon, for my part; more on that in a sec), but I don't see why it wouldn't be a thing in the PH version. I mean... there's a lot of potential for a brief scene with Twilight's consciousness.

Canon! Staying true to canon is generally good. We like canon because it gives us a standard world to operate within, one that has had certain events in it and adheres to certain rules. It's a playground, rather than an empty void, to imaginize in. Imaginate. Imaginogrify. Thing.

Anyway. Readers like it, too, because when something breaks canon, it feels like a betrayal of trust. "Oy, I thought we were on the same bloody page, author," says the reader, employing a fitting metaphor. "Since when does Twilight hate Spike? This isn't what the show is like, at all!" To them, it feels like cheating - stories that have rules for magic run afoul of this somewhat frequently, when those rules (which can never ever ever be broken) are broken somehow. If this isn't addressed in some way (generally, the characters are just as peeved with the turn of events, and perhaps the rule only appeared to have been broken), the story suffers.

However. Subversion and expansion of canon are where things get interesting. These two take things the reader thought they knew, and say, "There's more to it than that, silly," or, "You've assumed a bit too much; let me remove the veil from your sight." This is often where fanon and canon collide - fans believe something from the evidence seen so far (there are only two alicorns, goddess-princesses who control the heavenly bodies) which is then contradicted by canon (Hi I'm Cadance; Have some Red Bull, Twilight). This is sort of the natural progression of stories; if everything the reader believed was accurate, there wouldn't be many surprises in a story. Sure, you could just constantly keep the reader in the dark, but that's boring - they've gotta be able to believe they know what's going on, and then have the rug pulled out from under them occasionally.

I've already said that I like subversion and expansion and all that. What about straight-up retcons, though? Aren't those just... bad? Well, kinda. It generally means something has gone wrong. When they're done intentionally, though - not just because someone forgot that they earlier established something - I don't really mind them too much. They're unpleasant, but if they're needed to drive a story ahead, or because the author regrets a previous decision, then it's better to retcon than to just stop. They are certainly a sin, but it's not going to kill a story (for me, anyway) if the reader has to shuffle out one piece of canon and shuffle another one back in. An example of this would be, say, Mass Effect 2's ammo system. There was an explanation for it, sure, but it was clearly just a straight-up retcon to make the gameplay better and more accessible. I'll make fun of it, definitely ("running out of ammo isn't a glitch, it's a feature! Now your weapon never overheats, except it totally does and instead of waiting for it to cool down, you take an equivalent amount of time to change out the cooling unit for a new one, of which you have a limited number! Oh, and if you run out of cooling units, you can't just WAIT for your old one to cool down, because we designed them to burn out completely! You're welcome!"), but it was a good decision.

In the case of a fanwork, it is of course more complicated. On the one hand, a retcon isn't something they could have avoided by planning better, because they didn't write what they're retconning; on the other, it can kinda feel like sacrilege to mess with what has already been laid down, especially because if you're writing or reading a fanwork, it's generally because you really liked the original. Still, ultimately, if you need to retcon something to get something done in a story, then you do it. Sometimes that retcon happens in the premise itself - well, technically, I guess all fanworks are sort of a retcon if anything significant actually happens in them to any canon characters - and sometimes it only appears later on in the story.

Fortunately, I'm pretty sure this whole thing is moot since, as said, the alicorn that saved Pip definitely had Twi's cutie mark, with all that implies. So, I'm pretty sure this is a non-issue. But it was something I talked about for paragraphs and paragraphs anyway. Hope it was interesting/entertaining.

[Snipehamster]

Not interested in drama or taking sides, so I'll keep this post short, but I agree completely with Kippershy here. Lacunae shouldn't be the one to save Pip. In fact, I don't think there's any good reason for BJ to wind up at Maripony at all.

Tell your story, Somber. Don't risk the drama you'd set off for forcing your own characters into the original story.

[Guest]

@Snipe
But isn't the Goddess sort of intent on teleporting Blackjack to her for some unpleasantness pretty soon? I suppose she could luck out and whatever blocked the Goddess out earlier could last until the Goddess asplodes. I dunno, it kinda seems like the Goddess' death should be a big thing at this point - it didn't need to be before Blackjack started actually having interactions with her, but now... /shrug it might be a bit anticlimactic. But yeah, it's Somber story; make the character arc as you see fit. If you can do it without killing some of the delicious happysad (when it's not exactly bittersweet, and it's not exactly catharsis... it's happysad) when Twilight heard Pinkie's last words, I heartily recommend that, but do what ya gotta do - make it work for your story first. (I'm not sure how you'd go about doing so, realistically, mind you)

Anyway, upon further reflection, Lacunae probably doesn't need to be dead for Twilight to possess her (or any alicorn); the opposite was implied in the original.

EDIT: I am sounding like a broken record viz: this Twilight cutie mark thing. >_< Pretty sure point has been made, gonna stop reiterating it.

[Snipehamster]

@Snipe
But isn't the Goddess sort of intent on teleporting Blackjack to her for some unpleasantness pretty soon? I suppose she could luck out and whatever blocked the Goddess out earlier could last until the Goddess asplodes. I dunno, it kinda seems like the Goddess' death should be a big thing at this point - it didn't need to be before Blackjack started actually having interactions with her, but now... /shrug it might be a bit anticlimactic. But yeah, it's Somber story; make the character arc as you see fit. If you can do it without killing some of the delicious happysad (when it's not exactly bittersweet, and it's not exactly catharsis... it's happysad) when Twilight heard Pinkie's last words, I heartily recommend that, but do what ya gotta do - make it work for your story first. (I'm not sure how you'd go about doing so, realistically, mind you)

Anyway, upon further reflection, Lacunae probably doesn't need to be dead for Twilight to possess her (or any alicorn); the opposite was implied in the original.

EDIT: I am sounding like a broken record viz: this Twilight cutie mark thing. >_< Pretty sure point has been made, gonna stop reiterating it.

I'm sure it could be justified in-story, but I'm coming at this from the meta level. What does the Goddess subplot add to PH, and does it justify inserting PH characters into key points of the original?

BJ's interactions with Lacunae and the Goddess ultimately constitute a subplot. For the most part, they're not relevant to the central quest: the search for EC-1101's final destination and Project Horizons itself. PH is approximately 1.2 million words long at this point (which is half again as long as Harry Potter - the series, not any one of the books), and this particular subplot has been drawn out again and again for ~30 chapters. Now we're finally at the end, and our payoff is "actually, Somber's characters played a major part in the original"? We'll probably get an outpouring of regret and remorse from Lacunae and/or the Goddess, one or both of them will die, and BJ will probably walk away with new powers and/or a new weapon, all of which are par for the course at this point. 

The highlight, therefore, of BJ going to Maripony will be "BJ was at Maripony". By nature, this will be controversial. My question, as someone who'd rather get on with the main story at this point, is: why is it happening in the first place?

[Somber]

Because that's what I planned two years ago when I made Lacunae an alicorn.

 Here's the thing, Snipe.  You talk about plot and meta plot and fan expectations...

I'm not writing a plot.  I'm not writing a meta plot.  I'm writing a story.  The second I made Lacunae an alicorn and set it as the same time as FoE, the events of Maripony mattered.  It's a thing the story must address.  But let me resolve the "sub plots" as you seem to want me to.

"Oh.  Looks like the Goddess just died."
"Yup."
"Well now we can move on to Lighthooves."
"Oh.  Lighthooves just died too."
"Oh!  Well that's nice.  Now we can move to Cognitum and Daw- wait, let me guess.  Dead too?"
"As a doornail."
"Sweet.  Well let me move on to Horizons."
"Oh, here.  This will tell you all about Horizons."
"Oh!  Nice.  Now I guess I'll just have to deal with the remnant and..."
"Nope.  The legate's dead too."
"Oh.  Well good.  So eater then?  I'm going to have to fight it, aren't I?"
"Yup.  Cause apparently he's the 'primary antagonist of the main plot'."
"Sweet.  Bring it on."

 In other words.  Do you want Horizons to have the same kind of final chapters as FOE?

[Snipehamster]

I'm not writing a plot. I'm not writing a meta plot. I'm writing a story.

In other words.  Do you want Horizons to have the same kind of final chapters as FOE?

Not to be snide, but stories largely consist of plots. I'm not going to tell you how or what to write, but I just don't see Lacunae and the Goddess contributing much to PH as a whole; certainly not enough to justify crossing it over with FoE. 34, at least, had the excuse of being comic relief and fanservice in the wake of a major (and depressing) plot point.

And no, I'd rather PH not have a rushed ending. However, PH is twice FoE's length and the ending is still nowhere in sight. I wouldn't like it to have the same kind of final chapters as FoE; I'd like it to have final chapters.

[Somber]

Not to be a pissed off insomniac, but no writer has ever written a plot.  We write stories.  Stories are not plots.  They are not collections of plots any more than you are solely a collection of organs.  They're organic.  They develop.  There's all kinds of interdependancies that can't be forced.  And very frequently the story tells you to fuck off, it's going to do its own thing.  They change and twist and mutate.  They develop appendixes.  They can even develop cancer, something that Horizons has a tumor or two.  Accept this about my writing.  You'll be happier.

Here is my plot:  Best Day Ever, Death of the Goddess, Deal with the Devil, Shadowbolt Tower, Fall of Thunderhead, the Core, Cognitum, Project Bastion, Project Horizons, Goldenblood, the siege, to the palace, failure, Hoofington Rises, Eater, sunshine and rainbows.  I'd love it if each one was one chapter.  Some might be two.  It addresses the metaplots of the Goddess, the Enclave, the Harbingers and Cognitum, and finally Horizons and the Eater.  Happy?

 Call it the George RR Martin style of writing.

[Snipehamster]

Stories are not plots.  They are not collections of plots any more than you are solely a collection of organs.  They're organic.  They develop.  There's all kinds of interdependancies that can't be forced.  And very frequently the story tells you to fuck off, it's going to do its own thing.  They change and twist and mutate.  They develop appendixes.  They can even develop cancer, something that Horizons has a tumor or two.  Accept this about my writing.  You'll be happier.

I completely agree. And I'm not unhappy, just concerned.

When you discover a cancer the correct course of action is to limit its food supply, isolate it for the good of the body at large, or cut it out entirely. That's not always easy or pretty, but it's better than letting it go on causing harm. 

In this case, I'd recommend subverting reader expectations; instead of having BJ zoom off to Maripony, make the Goddess' death sudden and unexpected. We've had all this buildup - maybe play anticlimax for drama? 

Suggestion: Lancer's anti-magic talisman thingy wears off. Lacunae and BJ brace themselves for the worst, expecting the Goddess to carry out her plan. Nothing happens. The Goddess is already dead. All of a sudden, everything's changed for both characters, allowing for deeply personal conflict. Lacunae dies, or leaves, or dissolves into a cloud of angst and returns to the minds of the other alicorns whose guilt and fear were forced into her. A bittersweet ending that leaves BJ free to move on and takes 10k or so words rather than an entire chapter.

[Somber]

Then here is what you should be concerned about:  I have little confidence in myself to accomplish anything.  Your comments, and Kippershy's, make me want to quit because it makes me question everything that I've had planned for the last two years.  Because if the plan is no good, then why bother continue writing?  Why bother to continue living?  This story has been the one thing that's kept me alive for two years.

Now, there's a difference between criticizing something before it's been written and after it's been written in that it got fucking writen!  Telling me ideas are worthless in advance stops the writing process cold.  Analyzing them before I've put the words to page makes me not want to put ANY words down.  So your treatment may very will kill the patient.

[Snipehamster]

Then here is what you should be concerned about:  I have little confidence in myself to accomplish anything.  Your comments, and Kippershy's, make me want to quit because it makes me question everything that I've had planned for the last two years.  Because if the plan is no good, then why bother continue writing?  Why bother to continue living?  This story has been the one thing that's kept me alive for two years.

Now, there's a difference between criticizing something before it's been written and after it's been written in that it got fucking writen!  Telling me ideas are worthless in advance stops the writing process cold.  Analyzing them before I've put the words to page makes me not want to put ANY words down.  So your treatment may very will kill the patient.

I am offering my honest opinion. I am not telling you that your ideas are worthless, but simply that I disagree with them in this case. If the plan is no good (by your estimation, not mine; I'm not trying to dictate to you), then change the plan for the better.

Regardless, if your response to my position is to threaten suicide again, then for both our sakes I'll stop here. Good luck, no matter what you choose to do.

Note: edited my last post with some elaboration and a suggestion.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I think this may be a good point to stop this particular discussion here before things start really going downhill.


So, on another note and to change the subject, how's 57 coming along ?

[Somber]

Sucks.  Just... horrible.  Probably going to cut it short so it might only be 20-25 pages.

[Harmony Ltd.]

I see.

Well, know that we trust you. May you manage to iron out the bumps on your road and succeed on the goals you set for yourself.

[Plasticube]

Hear hear.

[Moodyman90]

Well I feel slightly like an ass for unleashing that topic of discussion, about something that hasn't even happen even.

Me personally, I still feel like Blackjack shouldn't be involved in Littlepip's rescue. I'm good with her wanting to help as soon as she finds out but not get involved. And that if Lacunae is that alicorn the only input she gets is allowing Twilight to take over.

But in the end, it's Somber's story and he must write it how he thinks it should go.

Sorry ya'll for bring up a topic that went this far. Half the time I feel like I'm ignored because I have a different opinion or I'm going "I agree" with somebody else that I didn't think how big this could get. I'll just go back to trying to run the Steam group till the next chapter comes out.

Still believe you can do it Somber, you're a lot better author then most people writing out there so if anybody can do it, you can.

[Kippershy]

Then here is what you should be concerned about:  I have little confidence in myself to accomplish anything.  Your comments, and Kippershy's, make me want to quit because it makes me question everything that I've had planned for the last two years.  Because if the plan is no good, then why bother continue writing?  Why bother to continue living?  This story has been the one thing that's kept me alive for two years.

Now, there's a difference between criticizing something before it's been written and after it's been written in that it got fucking writen!  Telling me ideas are worthless in advance stops the writing process cold.  Analyzing them before I've put the words to page makes me not want to put ANY words down.  So your treatment may very will kill the patient.

You know you could always ask me what to do about it instead. I'm not saying you should have to, but if my criticism hurts you that bad, perhaps I have some suggestions to with it?
Need I remind you that I already gave you some pretty solid suggestions for the next chapter? That I too know what it's like to write and question yourself as both a writer and a person, that I too have tried to kill myself and considered killing off my story? Hell, I'd have a lot more valid reasons to do so than you do, so don't go whining that it's not the same.

I shouldn't need to hold my criticism if I honestly feel strongly about it. It shouldn't matter if I make it because you should either be able to ignore me or say to me 'Hey, okay then, what would you do instead? Throw me a few ideas on how you'd handle this situation and maybe that'll help inspire me to come up with a different way to handle it.'


I don't want you to stop writing. I don't want you to stop living. I do want you to either accept my criticism or blank me, whichever you think is the best option deep down.

[Derpmind]

Regardless, if your response to my position is to threaten suicide again, then for both our sakes I'll stop here. Good luck, no matter what you choose to do.

You seem to be putting words in Somber's mouth. Somber's phrase: 'The patient' in this case referred to the story, not him.

Snipehamster and Kippershy, I salute you for being being so noble with your backseat driving. /sarcasm.

I get your problem, Snipehamster, you did not say your mind and might have prevented Somber from botching the Legate scene. But giving Somber absolutely everything on your mind certainly did not help, either. I believe that Somber is a better writer for going through the Legate mess. Yes, it would have been better if none of that emotional mess happened, but despite that Somber improved that scene immensely and kept on writing. None of us want another WaterLegate, but you cannot prevent mistakes from happening, you can only fix them afterwards. If this discussion had not happened, it is possible that Somber would have written the event, decided it did not work, changed things, and then published. If that had happened, none of us readers would have even known. Instead, by trying to write for Somber, both of you have stirred up high emotions again. You are not just giving your honest opinions, you are trying to emotionally manipulate Somber in order to save Somber from emotional hurt. Please, stop.

[Derpmind]

In other words.  Do you want Horizons to have the same kind of final chapters as FOE?

Marvel at my crappy paint skills and perfect timing.

[Snipehamster]

Regardless, if your response to my position is to threaten suicide again, then for both our sakes I'll stop here. Good luck, no matter what you choose to do.

You seem to be putting words in Somber's mouth. Somber's phrase: 'The patient' in this case referred to the story, not him.

Snipehamster and Kippershy, I salute you for being being so noble with your backseat driving. /sarcasm.

I was referring to this:

Then here is what you should be concerned about:  I have little confidence in myself to accomplish anything.  Your comments, and Kippershy's, make me want to quit because it makes me question everything that I've had planned for the last two years.  Because if the plan is no good, then why bother continue writing?  Why bother to continue living?  This story has been the one thing that's kept me alive for two years.

There's only so many ways it can be interpreted.

I get your problem, Snipehamster, you did not say your mind and might have prevented Somber from botching the Legate scene. But giving Somber absolutely everything on your mind certainly did not help, either. I believe that Somber is a better writer for going through the Legate mess. Yes, it would have been better if none of that emotional mess happened, but despite that Somber improved that scene immensely and kept on writing. None of us want another WaterLegate, but you cannot prevent mistakes from happening, you can only fix them afterwards. If this discussion had not happened, it is possible that Somber would have written the event, decided it did not work, changed things, and then published. If that had happened, none of us readers would have even known. Instead, by trying to write for Somber, both of you have stirred up high emotions again. You are not just giving your honest opinions, you are trying to emotionally manipulate Somber in order to save Somber from emotional hurt. Please, stop.

I'm talking about the Goddess, not the Legate. I've stated many times that I am not trying to tell Somber what to write, only that I disagree with certain choices that he's made, and I find your accusation that I'm somehow trying to manipulate Somber to be both absurd and offensive. Don't put words in my mouth, and don't try to paint me as a villain simply for holding an opinion you disagree with.

That said, I have stopped. It's not worth the fuss. Somber is free to ignore or counterargue against my viewpoint as he sees fit.

[Kippershy]

My stance is the same as Snipes, at this point. I wasn't going to say anything to this effect because my last post should be enough, but he puts it in a way I can't help agree with.
So, once again, I give up in being vocal about my differing opinion. It's obviously doing no good what-so-ever.

[WavemasterRyx]

-

[Snipehamster]

I'm not going to tell you how or what to write

Seriously? How can you even say that with a straight face?

 Please point out where I've told Somber what to do.

[Evilgidgit]

Now, now, let's not get into an argument. I get enough of that on IMDb. Regardless of who said what, where and why, I'm sure we can all agree that Somber is a brilliant writer and is writing a brilliant story. Every story gets criticism and won't always go the way that its possible fanbase expect or want, but it is always a treat, particularly in the case of fanfiction and PH to read a new chapter and get excited over what's going to happen to Blackjack and co.

Although looking back at the last page, what might Project Bastion be?

[Kippershy]

I'm not going to tell you how or what to write

Seriously? How can you even say that with a straight face?

And Kipper, I gave you a chance, and as much as you protested that you would change your ways and how much you never wanted to hurt Somber, you've only gotten worse. You're no longer welcome here.

I'm going to turn around and stop you here.
Somber can still ask me what I would do instead, that would be helping him. The fact he hasn't asked me what I would do instead of his current plan is his own choice.
I've not done this to hurt Somber, I've not said to myself: "Oh, you know what? I feel like upsetting Somber today!"
No. I heard an idea and I opposed that idea because I disagreed with it. I never attacked Somber, I displayed my dislike for an idea.
The fact that Somber then said it was his plan all along is his own doing.
The fact remains that I HAD said "unless there's a convincing argument, then I'll listen to it" defuses all right you have to have a go at me.
You don't set the rules, Ryx. You can't decide when I'm trying to hurt Somber for me, because I'm not set out to hurt Somber. Nor do you tell me where I am and am not welcome by anyone but yourself.

Don't like that I have an opposing opinion? Tough.
I didn't rip into Somber in the last chapter, nor the one before it. I didn't even express any possible negative views on those chapters, from my memory.
I offered him help when he asked elsewhere and I gave him the help, gave him my suggestions and did so to the best of my ability.
Don't go making me out as a monster just because you don't like that I'm not keen on every idea he'll ever have.

[Harmony Ltd.]

what might Project Bastion be?

Spoiler:

[Evilgidgit]

Ah, right. But is Redoubt separate from Bastion, even though the O.I.A. yoinked it from the aristoponies, right? Or is Bastion a reassigned Redoubt?

[Harmony Ltd.]

Answer :

Spoiler:

[Evilgidgit]

Then that means that there are eight OIA Projects! :squak:How did I miss that? Which chapter is it introduced in?

[Somber]

Or I'm tired and made a mistake.  It's the Redoubt.

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