Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[O. Hinds]

Oh yeah. I don't think she ever got back to there. Still needs to open Doof's, Psalms', and Echo's right? I think she knows the passwords to those and hasn't been able to open them up yet.

But I honestly can't really remember either.

I don't recall and can't find her opening Psalm's or Echo's, no, but they have opened Doof's; that's where Persuasion came from.

[SilentCarto]

Jesus gets off easy. His 'sacrifice' was a farce because at the end of it he comes back with super uber powers and is supposedly going to save the world. Except the world isn't "saved". The world is as it was and will always be: a collection of billions of individuals heaped into various factions and groups all looking out for their own self interests. Jesus would be a broken shell of a man if he actual existed, especially if he were the 'son of god' or god or whatever. Or he'd be a monster.

Time to don my Twilight-print asbestos underoos!  

Don't forget to add the Unity/The Goddess to that list, Kippershy.

I didn't think she was needed to be mentioned.

Oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh... Every time I think how close we're getting to the big boom, I get all twitchy and excited. I can't wait to see what happens!

Heh... heh heh heh... wouldn't it be a kick in the head (heh) if Somber released the chapter where the Goddess explodes on the Fourth of July? Unlikely, I know, but... heh.

Oh yeah. I don't think she ever got back to there. Still needs to open Doof's, Psalms', and Echo's right? I think she knows the passwords to those and hasn't been able to open them up yet.

But I honestly can't really remember either.

Doof's had Persuasion in it. She got the password from Deus' last memory orb. It was "Momma".

[Moodyman90]

I knew I'd forgotten and would mess that up. So who's locker hasn't been open? Twist?

Thank you Silent and O.Hinds.

[Kippershy]

Somber, this comes from /foe/ while we were having a discussion about the next leader of the Society.
Don't worry, I won't be telling anyone who it is, but I saw no harm in a little teasing.
Anyway, this suggestion popped up and I like it, got told to show it to you and I honestly think you could work the first half of it in and have it as a cute Boo moment.

[Guest]

@Kipper
This is the kinda stuff that only the most metagaming of metagamers come up with... I like it!

[Technowolf]

The lockers she's opened are Stonewing's, Doof's(Persuasion), and Vanity's(Duty & Sacrifice).  The rest (Big Mac, Echo, Twist, Psalm, Jetstream, and Applesnack) are unopened, but she could reasonably ask Lac and Dealer for their passwords, and Rampage might know Twists.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Or she could just ask P-21 to lockpick them or blow them open.

[Downloaded Skill]

Have we speculated as to what might be in those lockers? It's a pretty sure bet that Pslam's locker will have her sniper rifle, I think it was called Penance, that BJ will use right away. Lacunae would probably refuse to use it.

Twist was a hand to hand combatant right? Considering her current relationship with Rampage I'm guessing there would be some kind of unique power fist.

I don't think Echo had any iconic items or a combat specialization, IIRC he was a comm specialist, so he would probably have info on Goldenblood.

On a side note what happened to Jetstream's bomber jacket that BJ found in Meat Locker? I don't think she gave it to Glory yet.

[SilentCarto]

Have we speculated as to what might be in those lockers? It's a pretty sure bet that Pslam's locker will have her sniper rifle, I think it was called Penance, that BJ will use right away. Lacunae would probably refuse to use it.

Twist was a hand to hand combatant right? Considering her current relationship with Rampage I'm guessing there would be some kind of unique power fist.

I don't think Echo had any iconic items or a combat specialization, IIRC he was a comm specialist, so he would probably have info on Goldenblood.

I agree that Psalm probably left Penance in the locker, but I don't see why she would refuse it now. She's used an AMR without compunction.

I somehow suspect that Twist didn't leave a weapon so much as a memory of some kind, something that will make things make sense. I don't recall her ever wearing a punching weapon -- she went bare-hooved, as far as I can tell.
You know, she was probably the last one to open one of those lockers until BJ guessed Stonewing's password, getting the photos of the old crew on her way to go sit in a radioactive tank hull until she died.

You're probably right that Echo left all the dirt there that he'd collected about... everything.

Jetstream is a tough one to figure. Possibly some nifty energy weapon battle saddle for Glory.

Applesnack would probably have taken everything with him when he left, since he was still on active duty and heading into the Steel Ranger program. Maybe he left behind something he didn't want to remind him of what once was.

Big Mac... no idea. Though I wonder if that'll be the one that nets BJ the IF-88 Ironpony. It's an Ironshod product, so it would have been in Braeburn's hooves, it's been teased since Chapter 5, and Keeper said it was never put into production, which would make any prototypes... well... Unique.

On a side note what happened to Jetstream's bomber jacket that BJ found in Meat Locker? I don't think she gave it to Glory yet.

The dragonhide Skyguard jacket was Stonewing's, and Blackjack hasn't remembered to give it to her yet. She got thrown into a wall first, and that kind of knocked it out of her head.

[thatguyvex]

Random Speculation:

In the vein of not discounting anyone as a possible candidate for ruling the Society I'm going to speculate that Blackjack might give the job to Lacunae. My reasoning? As follows:

1. Despite it being clear now more than ever that Lacunae's got some serious mental issues, Blackjack has, perhaps more than any other member of her party, respected Lacunae and looked at the alicorn as a prime example of what a goddess (ie, a ruler) ought to be. On more than one occasion Blackjack has expressed admiration for Lacunae's intelligence, poise, and general emotional and mental strength despite (or rather perhaps, because of) the fact that she's an emotional dumping ground for the Goddess.

2. Lacunae has demonstrated leadership skills and the ability to make hard decisions, in ways Blackjack can't or won't; Clink being the most recent example. While Blackjack might not believe herself able to make good decisions as a leader, she may well trust Lacunae to make those kind of decisions.

3. Lacunae can teleport, with minimal limitations. If needed that means Blackjack can call on her via telepathy to get assistance or transport without taking Lacunae away from the Society for any long period of time. So out of any party member to leave behind, Lacunae's the most sensible choice due to this ease of communication and getting back to them if needed.

4. Power. Lacunae's a friggin' alicorn. There is little question of her ability to handle herself against the likes of the Society. Blackjack can probably relax, leaving her in charge, and feel relatively secure that her friend can handle things in her absence. 

So... yeah, that's my wild guess.

[SilentCarto]

Out of curiosity, when would she of done this? It was her sniper rifle. The one she was given to do her duty as an agent of the OIA.
I would think it'd be the one she used on Pinkie and, following that, she never returned to her locker. Just one big trek until she joined unity.
Would she of done it after that? Would she have the presence of mind to collect her thoughts so soon after joining, and in the presence of the goddess, and insist she needed to go put the rifle back? Would it even still work? Isn't a pony dipped with whatever they have on, the slag melting away while the pony merges with the dip?

Ah, you're right that she had Penance at Maripony, so it's probably not in her locker after all. However, the last we saw of the rifle was when Psalm dropped it when she saw what Trixie had become. She went after Trixie with the balefire launcher, not a sniper rifle. Its fate is unclear at this point, if indeed it's not still laying there when Littlepip's bomb goes off.

And hey, assuming Lacunae is the purple alicorn who helped rescue Littlepip, maybe there's still a chance for her to find it.

Just to connect all the dots, the rifle with the x-ray scope that was stashed on the roof of Tenpony Tower was definitely Penance. "The butt had lines carefully cut into it, one for each sin I’d committed.  The once-smooth surface was rough and jagged."

[Moodyman90]

And hey, assuming Lacunae is the purple alicorn who helped rescue Littlepip, maybe there's still a chance for her to find it.

 Funny you should mention the alicorn that helped rescue Littlepip. After giving it a lot of thought I came up with that if Blackjack is somehow involved with Littlepip's rescue, I may just have to call it out.

And only way I can accept that it's Lacunae is if it's stated, repeatedly, that Twilight was the one in control of Lacunae's action in saving her. But it can't just be Lacunae pretending to be Twilight because that would just make Littlepip playing Pinkie's last message to Twilight really sad and pointless since it's not actually Twilight.

[Kippershy]

For the love of god, don't do that.
Somber, I know you're not the one coming out with this stuff, but for the love of god don't do it.
That would be another Legate issue, I'm telling you right now.
No, it would be WORSE even.

Whatever you do, DON'T have Lacunae involved. Let it be a different alicorn.

[RoboRed]

I think it's been in the cards for a LONG time, personally.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Personally, I don't question that Somber has all the cards in his hands to have Lacunae be that alicorn without negatively impacting the story.

The question, on the other hand, is : should he ?

[Derpmind]

But it can't just be Lacunae pretending to be Twilight because that would just make Littlepip playing Pinkie's last message to Twilight really sad and pointless since it's not actually Twilight.

I don't see it being a problem if Twilight is the soul possessing Lacunae's body at the time. Calm down, Kippershy everyone.

[thatguyvex]

Wouldn't even remotely, slightly, minisculely (gah, that's totally not a word, is it?) bother me if Lacunae was involved with rescuing Littlepip, but I can see why it might bother others.

Some people treat the canon of the original FoE like its some kind of holy relic that should not be despoiled by being touched by the hands of others...

*shrugs* I don't get it myself. I don't think I've ever seen even the slightest hint that KKat minds what other FoE sidefics do. Fanfiction, by definition, can't be canon with anything else other than itself. Project Horizons is not canon with FoE, or any other fic. Which isn't a bad thing. It doesn't make it less of a good read or a cool story with awesome characters. I just don't grasp why people get so worked up and up in arms over someone "messing with canon" when its physically impossible for FoE's canon to be messed with, because no sidefic, no matter how well written or awesome, can be a part of FoE's original canon.

So Somber, or any of us, are free to write whatever we want. It doesn't affect the original FoE's canon. No point worrying about it. Write what seems fun. Write what you want to.

That's kind of the joy and fun of writing.

[Kippershy]

Personally, I don't question that Somber has all the cards in his hands to have Lacunae be that alicorn without negatively impacting the story.

The question, on the other hand, is : should he ?

Not in a million years.
There's no need. Not the slightest bit. What does he stand to gain from it? How would it help him tell the story like he can claim with when he goes into details about the past that are of questionable accuracy compared to the original? It can't.
If he uses Lacunae and makes her the one to rescue Littlepip, he's just saying: "My characters are all big and mighty. Kkat's characters NEEDED them all along!" and yes, he has said this in a lot of situations, and you know? A lot of people are sick of it.

I don't care half as much about the past with the OIA related stuff because the past is the past and can be extremely obscure. However, having Lacunae rescue Littlepip would cause shitstorms in untold size because that would be saying the original is somehow wrong, the original isn't good enough without him, that the original NEEDS him.
That's not the case.
I love Project Horizons, but if Lacunae saves 'Pip, it'll be a step far too far over the line for me, and a hell of a lot of others, to accept.

Wouldn't even remotely, slightly, minisculely (gah, that's totally not a word, is it?) bother me if Lacunae was involved with rescuing Littlepip, but I can see why it might bother others.

Some people treat the canon of the original FoE like its some kind of holy relic that should not be despoiled by being touched by the hands of others...
 when its physically impossible for FoE's canon to be messed with, because no sidefic, no matter how well written or awesome, can be a part of FoE's original canon.

-I'm glad you can at least see why it would upset others.

-Because it shouldn't be? It's about respect. If you're writing a story based upon another story because you respected and loved it so much that you wanted to, why are you then going to make so many and such big changes to the canon? I know it doesn't affect Kkats story canon and anyone who hasn't read Project Horizons will (likely) never find out about all these things unless they go looking for Project Horizons details, but that doesn't change the fact that it was done in the first place.
Let's take this into context:

I approached Kkat and asked about how Fillydelphia got its food. I asked her if Four Ridges (my home setting) could have been a potential friend/food supplier of/for Red Eye but not the only settlement to do so. She said yes, that I could feel free to do so.
What change does this make? Not a lot. Fillydelphia's food sources were never once brought up and I never made my setting the most important part of their survival - just one source. I never even went into detail on how much of the food they need comes from my place, just that they trade it to them.
Somber on the other hand has frequently changed how the past happened, sometimes in very minor ways, sometimes in ways like giving Psalm (a character of his own creation) a unique rifle that had rounds that weren't canonically didn't exist at the time to shoot Big Mac with while aiming for the Princess.
He made Twilight have a secret relationship with Big Mac and even bear his child in secret before giving it to a cousin we had never otherwise heard of.
He made that particular cousin go to space, something we had never heard of.

See what I mean? I'm not saying I'm angry or upset with Somber for those events, I'm laid back about those and simply let them fly because I don't worry about that.
However, when you save Littlepip from her death (which okay, is canon that that happened) but then also make it because of your character?
I could make it one of my alicorns who did it, but you'd never see me do that because it's unnecessary.
There's nothing to gain and a hell of a lot to lose.

Honestly.. tell me. WHY should Lacunae be the one?
WHAT would be the point of it? WHAT would Somber stand to gain?

Make a convincing argument and I'll reconsider my stance. Until then, if Lacunae is suddenly the one to take that role, I will be extremely unhappy.

[Moodyman90]

I believe Somber could pull it off if Lacunae was 100% taken over by the last bit of Twilight's spirit and there is no room of "maybe it was Twilight or maybe it wasn't" kind of stuff.

My main beef if it turns out said alicorn does turn out to be Lacunae would be if Blackjack gave the order of it Lacunae did it of her own violation. Less so if Lacunae willingly let Twilight take her over but that's pushing it.

Didn't mean to open up a can of worms, and I'm certainly not suggesting that is what Somber had planned, but like I said, something like that would probably be the point where I'd have to call B.S. And I was okay with the Legate fight.

But over all, I'm in agreement with Kipper, there's no real point in it.

[Guest]

@Lacunae
The obvious way (IMO) to make this work would be that Lacunae is dead and Twilight's consciousness, in some way, shape, or form, is in her body. Maybe fragments of Lacunae are still there, I don't know, but I can't see that moment - if it happens - as being a victorious or happy one for Blackjack et al. In any case, what's for absolute sure is that Twilight is in some way inside the super alicorn that rescued Pip. I re-read the section, and Twilight's cutie mark is on the alicorn's bum. Whether the body is Lacunae's or not, it is almost certainly a fact that Twilight is operating it.

[thatguyvex]

*nod* Hmm, okay, its fairly clear we got different definitions of what respect entails, Kippershy, but I can't actually fault your way of looking at things. I just look at them differently.

Before I get into that though I will say I agree with your advice to Somber. Not because of the respect thing you're talking about, but because, from what I've seen, Somber doesn't react well when people get up in arms about something he does to FoE canon, and it leads to him questioning himself and having trouble with writing the rest of the story.

While I personally don't mind, and even kind of like, the idea of Lacunae's involvement with Littlepip's rescue, it is sound advice you're giving a friend to caution Somber against it. And that's something I can't fault.

That said, from my own viewpoint it isn't disrespectful to alter or involve aspects of one story in another story as long as its clearly understood that the original story takes precedence as its own separate entity.

To use you're own example, while its cool and I won't say there was anything wrong with you consulting KKat about the food issue in your story, just for your own personal desire to ensure accuracy and respect as you believe it to be... from my viewpoint it was a wholly unneeded action and if I were reading your story my opinion on it would not be degraded nor upgraded based on whether you consulted KKat or not. I'd enjoy your story on its own merits, unconcerned with whether or not it was getting a stamp of approval by anyone else.

For me its a matter of pursuing personal freedom, while still respecting others enough to acknowledge their opinion, while still maintaining the most important kind of respect there is; self-respect.

I want Somber to respect his own story and his own intentions in writing it more than I want him to fear the opinions of others who would dislike it because of reasons as seemingly arbitrary to me as "it messes with canon".

But, again, I can't say you're wrong to caution him if that was something he was intending to do. Heck, for all we know he isn't and this whole conversation is rather moot.

As for why it would be needed in story or what he'd gain from it? Well, I'm not Somber, so I can't answer that question for him. I'm also not you, so I can't explain what you as a reader would gain from it.

For me, as a reader, my hope for such a scene would be that Twilight Sparkle's soul would be intentionally taking control (or asking Lacunae's permission to use) of Lacunae so she can rescue Littlepip because of two reasons:

1) I'd like Blackjack to eventually learn that the Stable Dweller and Littlepip are the same, and it wouldn't strike me as very Blackjack like to realize her friend could be dead in a balefire bomb blast and do nothing to try and help. Lacunae is the ideal method through which to try and find and help Littlepip, with Twilight's help. This leads to the other reason.

2) I think I'd enjoy seeing an actual conversation, however brief, between Twilight and Blackjack. Doesn't have to be big, just a brief scene of the two sharing a moment of connection, of family, before Twilight goes off to save Littlepip and move on to the everafter. Its not like its a big, needed moment, but that's not the point. It would just be cool, and enjoyable for me as a reader.

So, yeah, not huge groundbreaking reasons, but they'd be reason enough for me.

[Somber]

And when I had that plan for Lacunae, it makes writing things really hard.

[Guest]

...

Remember, there are no bad ideas (well okay mostly). Execute it well, working to try to alleviate any concerns you find reasonable, and it will not be a problem.

[Icy Shake]

So, wow, that's quite a topic. I'll just add my opinions that Lacunae('s body) being the super alicorn that saves Littlepip could work given the right conditions—most prominently that Twilight is actually in control at the time, and preferably that Lacunae's presence at Maripony was at the behest of the Goddess—and that I personally think that Somber has in fact generally done a very good job of not altering FoE continuity, at least in ways that can't be reconciled with the limited and sometimes unreliable perspective of that narrative. As for the inclusion of Twilight's cousin, who was never mentioned, well, that's certainly less of a change than the potential insertion of a very prominent brother who was never mentioned, right?  

Anyway, with the holiday, I got some reading done—after all, how better to celebrate one's independence than by watching a pony fall ever further into drug dependence?

Chapter 14 Editing:

Other Editing:

Just some thoughts while reading:

I'm breaking this out separately, because.

"Then I saw the tears in her eyes, caught the soft catch in her throat, and I knew exactly how: layers of denial and pain."

Now, one complaint about PH I remember hearing at some point is that we don't even find out what Project Horizons is until over a million words in. I modestly propose that the story be renamed Fallout Equestria: Layers of Denial and Pain after this line. Just think of how much more accessible it would be with a more descriptive title, or at least one relevant from early on!

Also, I just want so much to combine it with another early quotation:
"‘Red is dead’ can’t be my first option, P-21!"—"Layers of denial and pain can be my first option, P-21!"

Does anybody else have favorite lines (in speech or out) from PH they'd like to share, or alternate titles?
(Oh, and I have to add "Big Macintosh wasn’t a hero for saving Celestia.  He was a hero because he’d have tried to save anypony who didn’t deserve to die." as another line I love.)

[Guest]

For the most part I'm in agreement with moody.

[WavemasterRyx]

Are you guys spying on me so that you know when I'm almost feeling good enough to draw just so you can bring up such depressing topics?

Maybe having Lacunae be the super-alicorn wouldn't have been my first choice were I writing it, but I trust Somber to try his best.

[Kippershy]

All I can say is: be ready for the backlash if you go through with it.
I've given you my warning once, I'll say so again. Chances of successfully pulling this off without having a whole lot (and I mean a WHOLE LOT) of backlash, perhaps the size of chapter 34 or Legate, aren't great.
I won't stop you if you want to do it, but I know enough of the community in various spaces to know it won't end well unless you do something spectacular that amazes us all.

[Kippershy]

If Lacunae mentally dies and then someone begins controlling her body before teleporting off without saying a word to Blackjack... if you put it so she has Twilights C.M...
THEN I'll accept it. THEN I'll be okay with it without making any fuss at all (promise!).
But if Blackjack somehow says to her: "OH, go save Pip!"?

Like I say, it can be done, but it needs to happen OFF SCREEN. For the love of god, please let it be implied and not proven.

[StoneSlinger88]

Twilight would most likely choose the closest purple alicorn (remember that they are color-coded). There were plenty around; I remember the Goddess telling her children to flee shortly before being blown to hell. I doubt Lacunae would've been in the area unless tasked so by Blackjack or under control of the Goddess.

[O. Hinds]

So, wow, that's quite a topic. I'll just add my opinions that Lacunae('s body) being the super alicorn that saves Littlepip could work given the right conditions—most prominently that Twilight is actually in control at the time, and preferably that Lacunae's presence at Maripony was at the behest of the Goddess—and that I personally think that Somber has in fact generally done a very good job of not altering FoE continuity, at least in ways that can't be reconciled with the limited and sometimes unreliable perspective of that narrative. As for the inclusion of Twilight's cousin, who was never mentioned, well, that's certainly less of a change than the potential insertion of a very prominent brother who was never mentioned, right?  

Anyway, with the holiday, I got some reading done—after all, how better to celebrate one's independence than by watching a pony fall ever further into drug dependence?

Chapter 14 Editing:

Other Editing:

Just some thoughts while reading:

I'm breaking this out separately, because.

"Then I saw the tears in her eyes, caught the soft catch in her throat, and I knew exactly how: layers of denial and pain."

Now, one complaint about PH I remember hearing at some point is that we don't even find out what Project Horizons is until over a million words in. I modestly propose that the story be renamed Fallout Equestria: Layers of Denial and Pain after this line. Just think of how much more accessible it would be with a more descriptive title, or at least one relevant from early on!

Also, I just want so much to combine it with another early quotation:
"‘Red is dead’ can’t be my first option, P-21!"—"Layers of denial and pain can be my first option, P-21!"

Does anybody else have favorite lines (in speech or out) from PH they'd like to share, or alternate titles?
(Oh, and I have to add "Big Macintosh wasn’t a hero for saving Celestia.  He was a hero because he’d have tried to save anypony who didn’t deserve to die." as another line I love.)

Ah, as usual, thank you.

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