Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Guest]

The problem with Goldenblood is that his flaws aren't flaws. Sure, he's sick. Sure, he can keel over dead at any moment. Did that stop him from completing his work? Did anyone ever have reason to question his authority up until the very end? No, instead, he garners everyone's pity, just as planned. What he needs is a foil. A proper stumbling block. Something to remind him of his mortality.

...

Given that her personality has reached a sort of metastable state (she's quite baked upstairs, to put it kindly), I think that her ongoing existential crisis is the most interesting part about her most recent incarnation, and can definitely be exploited for some gut-wrenching twists and drama.

...

That said, I did find the P21xPriest pairing very abrupt and poorly-telegraphed, and to be honest, the story doesn't do a very good job of communicating why BJ and crew went back into the tunnels in the first place after emerging from the subway and visiting the museum and Chapel. Problems like this crop up now and then, but rest assured, it's fixable.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: this story is pure grindhouse. B-movie-esque pulp. Some people hate that just for the sake of hating it. Well, I say screw that. I'm in a love affair with the lowest common denominator. So what? Does everything have to be held up to some lofty, Shakespearean standard? With the way some people criticize this series, you'd think they'd never watched Robocop, or Death Race 2000, or Kill Bill. Because that's what this is like. This scratches that itch for me.

I'm proud to say that the concept of the penny dreadful is very much alive and well. Despite myself, I'm still quite anxious to see what happens next.

I've actually always felt that Goldenblood did need someone to foil his whatevers (wits, intelligence, craftiness, moral turpitudiosity) against, but I'm pretty sure that foil is Horse. Goldenblood's sort of theme is "the road to hell, paved with good intentions" - he destroys the things he wants to protect in the act of protecting them. Horse, on the other hand, is equally a plotter, but for entirely different reasons, and this subverts the cliches that giving one person too much power will inevitably cause death and destruction - not by actually defeating the cliche (Goldenblood does, after all, fail), but by complicating it. Horse's presence points out how people with ambition and greed will seize power, one way or another; given the choice between the two, surely one must pick Goldenblood - the question then becomes what other options are available, realistically, if any. Anyway, yeah, I've never seen Goldenblood as a successful good guy by any stretch of the imagination. Adding more hints viz: this fact early on might help, since, apart from the fact that everyone died apocalyptically, there wasn't much evidence for this early on. I dunno, more would be good, 'cos I like Goldenblood's character and find him interesting - seeing Echo's work with him sounds like it could be very interesting, if that happens.

I definitely absolutely most assuredly want to see more existential crises for Blackjack. I am well aware that this is not actually a popular opinion, but damn it, the cogsci fan in me loves to see the mind explored like this, realistically or not.

Yeah, Priest-21 did sort of come out of nowhere at first - I think some telegraphings were edited in a pretty long time ago, as well as some showing that what was going on was not actually much more serious than emotional counseling and some kissing - and if there was to be a massive undertaking of a revision, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing it expanded a bit. As I recall it, it's fine, but it could potentially be super good. Although P-21 does kinda steal the show in every scene he's in for a looooong time already. =P

Lastly, were you aware that Dickens was published as a serialized narrative, and was grouped with the rest of the pulp back in the day? This isn't to say he was unappreciated or unwealthy, just to note that pulp done well is good stuff. (Except that Dickens isn't always all that good... I dunno where I'm going with this, just noting a fun fact) Anyway, yeah, Tarantino with sentiment works as a metaphor for my takeaway of PH.

(Last note - I am perfectly capable of criticizing PH, and have done so before and will continue to do so; however, the relentlessness of late towards airing complaints has understandably led me into a position of backlash.)

(I lied, that wasn't the last note at all: Also thank god someone else who has problems with the term Mary Sue.)

(Also also fuck yeah... ellipses)

(Also also also your blog has long posts, this is a good thing)

[Valikdu]

(I lied, that wasn't the last note at all: Also thank god someone else who has problems with the term Mary Sue.)

Some people just think that ANY character with unusual powers or characteristics is a Mary Sue.

[Kippershy]

Going off memory here, don't take this as me quoting anything...
Ryx said at this point I can't say i'm doing what's best for PH with my criticisms and qualms...that there's no way to convince him otherwise.
he has a good point.

Because of this, I won't be saying anything more in these threads until the new chapter... Or possibly ever.
It wasn't my intention to become this. It wasn't my intention to grow bitter and cynical, and unless I can remove that aspect of me I can't give the proper feedback I should be.
even if I have criticism, I shouldn't let bitterness affect it.

if when 55 comes out and I like it, i'll let you know.
if when it comes out I only have negative comments about it, I won't post.
if I like and dislike it, i'll see depending on what I would in theory have to say.


Either way, i've done more damage than good.

[Train Dodger]

I've
actually always felt that Goldenblood did need someone to foil his
whatevers (wits, intelligence, craftiness, moral turpitudiosity)
against, but I'm pretty sure that foil is Horse. Goldenblood's sort of
theme is "the road to hell, paved with good intentions" - he destroys
the things he wants to protect in the act of protecting them. Horse, on
the other hand, is equally a plotter, but for entirely different
reasons, and this subverts the cliches that giving one person too much
power will inevitably cause death and destruction - not by actually
defeating the cliche (Goldenblood does, after all, fail), but by
complicating it. Horse's presence points out how people with ambition
and greed will seize power, one way or another; given the choice between
the two, surely one must pick Goldenblood - the question then becomes
what other options are available, realistically, if any. Anyway, yeah,
I've never seen Goldenblood as a successful good guy by any stretch of
the imagination. Adding more hints viz: this fact early on might help,
since, apart from the fact that everyone died apocalyptically, there
wasn't much evidence for this early on. I dunno, more would be good,
'cos I like Goldenblood's character and find him interesting - seeing
Echo's work with him sounds like it could be very interesting, if that
happens.

Sure, except Goldenblood is a cold-blooded murderer. The thing about him is that he's such a mixed bag. He's so lukewarm. The narrative entreats the audience to sympathize with him one moment, and hate his guts the next. It's rather jarring, at times. In the end, you're left wondering whether to root for him or despise him. That, in itself, is a trait that can be used to flesh out a character. I've seen the "sympathetic diabolical mastermind" type of character pulled off very well, before.

Off-The-Wall Speculation:

That's one example of a way you could retcon Goldenblood to make him less "overpowered" without having to sweep through too much of the old canon, if you wanted to.

Yeah, Priest-21 did sort of come out of nowhere at first - I
think some telegraphings were edited in a pretty long time ago, as well
as some showing that what was going on was not actually much more
serious than emotional counseling and some kissing - and if there was to
be a massive undertaking of a revision, I definitely wouldn't mind
seeing it expanded a bit. As I recall it, it's fine, but it could
potentially be super good. Although P-21 does kinda steal the show in
every scene he's in for a looooong time already. =P

I think maybe the first visit to Chapel could be expanded upon a little bit with some hints in that direction, at least so it doesn't look like it's effectively coming out of nowhere.

Anyway, yeah, Tarantino
with sentiment works as a metaphor for my takeaway of PH.

Yes. Very Tarantino. And Robert Rodriguez, David Cronenberg, Paul Verhoeven, Roger Corman, and maybe a little bit of Joss Whedon in there, too.

From my perspective, this is a good thing.

(Last
note - I am perfectly capable of criticizing PH, and have done so before
and will continue to do so; however, the relentlessness of late towards
airing complaints has understandably led me into a position of
backlash.)

(I lied, that wasn't the last note at all: Also thank god someone else who has problems with the term Mary Sue.)

Mary Sue/Gary Stu is an incredibly lazy catch-all with a very, very imprecise definition. You see it applied to all kinds of characters, for all sorts of reasons, invariably in the pejorative sense. In its original sense, the term meant "an author-insert character in a work of fan fiction created specifically to act as a vicarious love interest for canon characters that the author is infatuated with, and to generally show up canon characters by being better at everything".

Now, it means "any character in any work of fiction, even original fiction, that is indispensable to the plot". By this standard, Gilgamesh from the Epic of Gilgamesh is one. So is James Bond. So are the lead protagonists in every myth, every epic poem, and every thriller novel or action movie ever made.

Anyone who can still use that term with a straight face by this point should be utterly embarrassed of themselves.

After all of Blackjack's fuck-ups, I'd say she's pretty balanced as
far as protagonists go. Sure, she's become plenty more powerful and
harder to kill, and she'll probably become quite a bit more powerful
before this is over, but that doesn't absolve her of her past misdeeds,
nor will it keep her from meeting with failure time and time again.

(Also also also your blog has long posts, this is a good thing)

Not my blog. Just one with a message that I can get behind.

[WavemasterRyx]

even if I have criticism, I shouldn't let bitterness affect it.

if when 55 comes out and I like it, i'll let you know.
if when it comes out I only have negative comments about it, I won't post.
if I like and dislike it, i'll see depending on what I would in theory have to say.


Either way, i've done more damage than good.

Thank you.

[O. Hinds]

Off-The-Wall Speculation:

...Of course! It was Spike the whole time! No, wait, that's silly. It was Spike's evil time clone! :)

(As for the rest of this discussion... Yeaaaah, I'm not too inclined to touch it at the moment.)

[Snipehamster]

I suspect that I may be going the same way as Kippershy, honestly. I wouldn't call myself (or Kipper) bitter, nescessarily, but recent discussions have certainly altered my perspective.

Moreover, there's no point raising concerns and hoping for a reasonable - if perhaps heated - discussion if the typical response is an emotional outburst.

Aside: I do like Train Dodger's ideas about memory orb-related puzzles. Contradicting or doctored memories could be fun to work with and a great source of ambiguity.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Off-The-Wall Speculation:

DEATH TO THE TRAITOR GOLDSTEIN !

[Harmony Ltd.]

goldstein:

[Icy Shake]

I like the memory modification angle. Now it's got me thinking of how the separate people could be broken up. Probably all or most of the face-to-face interactions between Psalm and Goldenblood would be the same person, and maybe even the radio at Shattered Hoof Ridge; depending on how Fluttershy's pregnancy is handled, it could be zero (unlikely), one, or multiple "Goldenbloods" who interact with her (in particular, the megaspell conversation might be a separate person from the rest); with Horse and the gemstone ponies, there could have been a series or a council of them; probably the Goldenblood at the prewar strategy conference, fresh back from the Zebra lands, would be different from all the rest. Anyway, plenty of room for fun speculation.

And--would memory modification work on Spike? I don't think we've seen memory modification of a non-pony yet. What if they tried, and it failed, leading him to find out? Or, perhaps more likely, if ending at the same place, OIA/the conspiracy first tries modification out on another dragon (maybe a baby dragon) and fail, so they need to bring him in on it if he'll be there for any of the actual events. Or, they could test on a baby dragon successfully, only to find that the more powerful magic/whatever of an older dragon prevents memory modification. Seeing how he reacts would be interesting, but probably he would play ball in the end, given he already got behind overwriting Twilight's memory of the Gardens, even if he wasn't ecstatic about doing so.

Though the point about the Princesses does seem crucial, unless they were early on planning contingencies for an event in which the Princesses ended up dead. Pinkie Pie might be another problem, as Twilight could have been—depending on how strongly she protected her records—if that weren't already covered by events in Fallout: Equestria: what's happened once can happen again, after all. But expanding the real Goldenblood's role would still deliver much of the intrigue.

Regarding the overuse of ellipsis, I find myself reluctantly expressing agreement—reluctantly because I feel hypocritical saying anything about it given my own unhealthy relationship with dashes and overlong sentences. And yes, it is something of a common problem in the fanfiction I've seen, often side by side with the habit of seeming to place "rather" before every third adjective or adverb—which is a problem I'm happy to say does not exist here, as it is one that I find rubs me the wrong way to an entirely unreasonable extent.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well, at the top of my head, unless it was all completely staged and the actual event did not in fact take place, Goldenblood would have needed to exist at least for Luna to give the order for him to be jailed as traitor in the Enddays.

This leaves a few possibilities :

1/ no conspiracy, everything is genuine
2/ conspiracy, the actual arrest was staged, and subsequent reports were misinformation
3/ if in the memories Luna saw herself that he got arrested (I don't remember ), then either :
3a/ she was faked in the memories, and everyone got false reports - and as the Holocaust they had planned was due for only a few days I guess they didn't care that much about the Princesses finding out.
3b/ Luna herself was involved in the conspiracy ( :psyduck: )

or, finally :

4/ part or all of the memory orbs & various documents referencing Goldenblood, his plots, or anything really which led BlackJack to where she is now are forgeries designed to lead whoever would follow their trail into a certain path, for which exact purpose I do not know (Horizon ?).



In the case of 4/, depending on the exact part of the "truth" which has been deformed / transformed / created, given some of those archives are indubitably pre-war by the circumstances surrounding their findings (ex : memory orbs found in a safe which hasn't been opened in 200 years), we cannot exclude the requirement for a reality-bender to be involved for it to work.

[Somber]

There was a conspiracy. It went off the rails.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Oh dear.

There's going to be some discussions about that.



/me grab popcorns

[Overthepacific]

That's a fair perspective, and I respect that you hold it. But I see it not as an interruption, but as punctuation—emphasis that each episode is part of a growing whole—which may be handled differently each time it comes up, and I groan no more when it comes up than I ever think to myself "Well, I guess the Joker's escaped from Arkham again; this is going to be a tiresome waste of time!" Some things, in my opinion, don't necessarily get old with repetition, and I think that Blackjack's feelings regarding killing/execution are among them. But I can understand why one might feel differently.

Here is the point about her not being an executioner.
There is going to be a point where she has to make a judgement, and if
she can kill in cold blood or not will make a very critical difference.
That's the point. If she could kill everyone who crossed her, she'd be
the reaper, perminently, with a trail of corpses in her wake. And
she'd be doomed as well.

I get it guys, I really do. This is perfectly understandable situation. Well, it was about 1000 pages and two volumes ago. But Icy brought up a good point about the change, she wasnt that far off from "red its dead, yellow be mellow". This situation was a good follow up after that, because I could see the change, and it was an entertaining part of the story at the time. But it doesnt feel like its changed a whole lot since.

If this was only two volumes long, I could really see this being an emotional strong point until the end. But were pushing on 2500 something pages here. I feel like this whole thing should have been closed up and changed into something else a long time ago. How am I supposed to know when this big judgement point will come? Will it be next chapter or in another two volumes?

The problem is that the sheer amount of going through this and seeing all of it in the last 20 chapters has made me feel less and less like it is really understandable anymore. This isnt supposed to be realistic, where everyone will always feel the same way about certain things, especially in the murderous wasteland that they live in.

To kind of sum it all up, it was a good point of emotion before, but its gone on to the point of it getting old, and I really just dont want to read about it anymore since weve already been through so much of it.

[Moodyman90]

So what's the theory now?

That Goldenblood never existed and was created to cover up the actions of others, meaning the massive memory alterations and removal for multiple ponies including those of the Princesses and the Ministry Mares?

Or that Godenblood was a real pony who, while not in the middle of everything, was well known enough to be made a scapegoat for the more questionable and potentially treason labeling plans, plots, projects, and actions? Which would still mean altering if not complete removal of memories for a large group of ponies.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well,

it may be 2500 pages,

but for the character it has only been a few weeks.


There's only so much character development you can cram in such a short timespan.


Yeah, she's had time to get killed. Two times. And everyone know she's got her fair share of sanity-shacking breakdowns.

But I wonder, even with all the weirdness surrounding here and the radical changes she experienced to her life, would Security so "easily" be able to shake something so integral to her than the whole "I don't want to be a cold-blooded monster" thingy ?

It seems to me that in her universe of slowly losing herself to the wasteland, literally so as she gets more and more mutated / augmented, violated in her body and mind by external forces ; it's one of the last anchor she has to the image she had of her previous, "innocent" self.

That, in a sense, in her eyes, as soon as she'll relinquish that last leash, she will not be "BlackJack" anymore, but a monster of seething hatred and anger.

Like Doof.




@ Moody : If I had to go with the flow, I'd say theory number 2. But you never know.

[Moodyman90]

Granted these are just theories we're flinging at the wall, but I'd prefer if it was number two as well.
Granted both are very 1984 like, but blaming somebody that actually existed would be easier then making a person from scratch and then going around making people believe he's real.

[AGurdel]

There was a conspiracy. It went off the rails.

Probably a problem with different track gauges.

[Harmony Ltd.]

And what if...

What if there were more than one "Goldenblood" ?

What if it wasn't memory manipulation ?...



What would have happened to the First Goldenblood ?



Talk about a public face for a conspiracy.

[Moodyman90]

Funny enough the thought of "what if Goldenblood was actually a set of twins/triplets/etc." did cross my mind.

I know you went the changeling route, but my through process went daytime TV, mainly to Soap Operas.

[Derpmind]

This isnt supposed to be realistic,

Words fail me, so have some poetry instead:

[Harmony Ltd.]

Not necessarily changeling. It was just the first thought that came to my mind when I asked myself the question : "who or what would be able to so easily adopt the appearance and mannerism of someone else for long durations and go unnoticed".

Then my mind went back to Wedding Crasher and how she operated.



But, in a world were Project Chimera existed... Well, wouldn't it be handy to have clones of some of your highest officials ?...

[Quotidian]

There was a conspiracy. It went off the rails.

Probably a problem with different track gauges.

Thank you sir, may I have another?

[Vergil]

There was a conspiracy. It went off the rails.

Probably a problem with different track gauges.

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[O. Hinds]

There was a conspiracy. It went off the rails.

Probably a problem with different track gauges.

There was a conspiracy. It went off the rails.

Probably a problem with different track gauges.

Thank you sir, may I have another?

There was a conspiracy. It went off the rails.

Probably a problem with different track gauges.

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

:)

[Meleagridis]

And what if...

What if there were more than one "Goldenblood" ?

What if it wasn't memory manipulation ?...



What would have happened to the First Goldenblood ?



Talk about a public face for a conspiracy.

Spoiler:

I'm always in support of including these little guys. It also demonstrates a little flexibility, what with PH pre-dating changelings technically.

Pretty sure this multiple Goldenblood stuff is over-the-top Wild Mass Guessing but frankly don't give a damn.

[Overthepacific]

Words fail me, so have some poetry instead:

At what point in reading about a cybernetic horse traveling with a psuedo rainbow dash on top of a living tank in war torn wasteland in the Friendship is Magic universe did you expect this to be realistic?

Well,
it may be 2500 pages,
but for the character it has only been a few weeks.
There's only so much character development you can cram in such a short timespan.
Yeah, she's had time to get killed. Two times. And everyone know she's got her fair share of sanity-shacking breakdowns.
But
I wonder, even with all the weirdness surrounding here and the radical
changes she experienced to her life, would Security so "easily" be able
to shake something so integral to her than the whole "I don't want to be
a cold-blooded monster" thingy ?
It seems to me that in her universe
of slowly losing herself to the wasteland, literally so as she gets
more and more mutated / augmented, violated in her body and mind by
external forces ; it's one of the last anchor she has to the image she
had of her previous, "innocent" self.
That, in a sense, in her eyes,
as soon as she'll relinquish that last leash, she will not be
"BlackJack" anymore, but a monster of seething hatred and anger.

Like Doof.

You say a couple of weeks like its a short time span. A lot can happen in an hour, let alone two months. And considering everything shes been through?

But that isn't the point, it doesnt matter if it's three days, or three years, 2500 pages of it is a bitch and a half to read through, let alone enjoy when it doesnt change. A lot more character development can happen in a fourth of the amount of text that is currently in the story. Again, it would be fine if this was a more confined point, or story altogether, but its not, so it isnt.

I wanna reread this story all the way through, I really do. But every time I get up to 34 I lose interest fast. It just doesnt hold the same standard and feeling like it used to, and it upsets me every time I end up having to stop reading a chapter because it feels more like a chore to go through than if I actually want to read through it.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

Words fail me, so have some poetry instead:

At what point in reading about a cybernetic horse traveling with a psuedo rainbow dash on top of a living tank in war torn wasteland in the Friendship is Magic universe did you expect this to be realistic?

Well,
it may be 2500 pages,
but for the character it has only been a few weeks.
There's only so much character development you can cram in such a short timespan.
Yeah, she's had time to get killed. Two times. And everyone know she's got her fair share of sanity-shacking breakdowns.
But
I wonder, even with all the weirdness surrounding here and the radical
changes she experienced to her life, would Security so "easily" be able
to shake something so integral to her than the whole "I don't want to be
a cold-blooded monster" thingy ?
It seems to me that in her universe
of slowly losing herself to the wasteland, literally so as she gets
more and more mutated / augmented, violated in her body and mind by
external forces ; it's one of the last anchor she has to the image she
had of her previous, "innocent" self.
That, in a sense, in her eyes,
as soon as she'll relinquish that last leash, she will not be
"BlackJack" anymore, but a monster of seething hatred and anger.

Like Doof.

You say a couple of weeks like its a short time span. A lot can happen in an hour, let alone two months. And considering everything shes been through?

But that isn't the point, it doesnt matter if it's three days, or three years, 2500 pages of it is a bitch and a half to read through, let alone enjoy when it doesnt change. A lot more character development can happen in a fourth of the amount of text that is currently in the story. Again, it would be fine if this was a more confined point, or story altogether, but its not, so it isnt.

I wanna reread this story all the way through, I really do. But every time I get up to 34 I lose interest fast. It just doesnt hold the same standard and feeling like it used to, and it upsets me every time I end up having to stop reading a chapter because it feels more like a chore to go through than if I actually want to read through it.

So existential crises are not your forte?

[Meleagridis]

Finely Aged Angst

I've got my own opinions on that, opinions honestly swayed by yourself and squeak, but if I may focus on something else for a moment? You've been going at the angst for about 3 pages or so? I mean, there isn't anything wrong with that, but watching the argument pass back and forth has been like a neverending match of tennis. It's really only been the same argument over and over and over. Funnily enough, you're suffering from the same fault you're perceiving. I'm not asking you to drop it or anything, but maybe wanna throw that on the backburner until either A) you can describe it differently, hopefully helping the people already involved to see this in a new light or B) wait until someone with a fresh perspective comes by and replies to some of the pages of debate that's already stacked up, bounce this off of new heads.

[Derpmind]

At what point in reading about a cybernetic horse traveling with a psuedo rainbow dash on top of a living tank in war torn wasteland in the Friendship is Magic universe did you expect this to be realistic?

When I first started reading Project Horizons, I didn't expect anything except it being another Fallout: Equestria fic. Some of the very best literature I've read I consider 'realistic' not because they are scientifically-plausible, predictable or familiar. Rather, I say 'realistic' in the sense that basically it creates it's own reality. There is a believable and immersive world with characters that feel like real people. I get that the angst can be tiresome and bad character development after it going on for so many chapters, but the flipside of this is that to me it is a believable portrayal (still sometimes shockingly so) of depression. I like that even super-capable cyber-pony heroine Blackjack the awesome has to deal with the same extreme emotions and anti-self that I do/have. Sometimes shit happens that the only answer to is to keep asking questions. It's when you know all the answers and don't ask questions that you're really fucking yourself over.

So I originally responded to that with a joke and suddenly now I have some words to say, and right or wrong my belief is that if PH isn't realistic than what the fudge have I been reading all this time? Also note all the words I didn't include but could/should have, because I'm still generally terrible at this kinda stuff. If you get what I meant to say rather than just the lackluster puddle of words that I did say, then please pretend I'm that more capable person who said the former instead. My brain isn't as good at output as it is at input.

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