Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[StoneSlinger88]

When we're sad we'll listen to depressing songs or watch a sad movie. In something I gleaned from listening to smarter people, it can be a way of expressing one's sorrows, letting it out. We want to feel like there's others like us who understand what's happening that we can sympathize with.

As for the -chan thing, I really don't care for them. Just more time on the internet I'm currently spending on other things, like college.

And Somber, stop being so hard on yourself. You made a decision. Whether its good or bad all depends on how you keep making your decisions. Personally, I liked the chapter and the Legate, and have confidence that you know what you're doing (even if you think you don't). Don't let someone else make you nervous or discourage you from doing something.

[Caoimhe]

Oh, can someone update the big ePub? It hasn't been updated in a while.

[Train Dodger]

Oh, can someone update the big ePub? It hasn't been updated in a while.

I've been using this version, by HGBLoneWolf. Seems like it stays updated regularly.

[FeatherDust]

Kipper, I said 4chan, not /b/. I said what I meant.

I have spent some time on 4chan, and I found it to be a few gems of interesting and thoughtful discussion buried under a mountain of complaining, unfunny memes, and trolling. And this is outside of /b/, mind you.

I appreciate that the whole brony thing started there, but this fact does not fill me with gratitude. Rather I take it as proof that something good can come from even a terrible environment, or as my father would say it, "even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while".

I note that while the fandom started in /co/, it also left soon afterward due to persecution, by not only other users but admins. Do I need to remind you why "mods are asleep, post ponies" is a thing?

[Kippershy]

Kipper, I said 4chan, not /b/. I said what I meant.

I have spent some time on 4chan, and I found it to be a few gems of interesting and thoughtful discussion buried under a mountain of complaining, unfunny memes, and trolling. And this is outside of /b/, mind you.

I appreciate that the whole brony thing started there, but this fact does not fill me with gratitude. Rather I take it as proof that something good can come from even a terrible environment, or as my father would say it, "even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while".

I note that while the fandom started in /co/, it also left soon afterward due to persecution, by not only other users but admins. Do I need to remind you why "mods are asleep, post ponies" is a thing?

Mods are asleep post ponies is a joke.
I don't need reminding of that, I'm a veteran of the great banwaves.
In the end, what killed the /b/read wasn't their banwaves but one of our own members.

Never went to /co/ myself, too autistic. Nope, I just hung around the /b/read for the time it was good... before it died.

[Mister Nikel]

Hmm lots of things happening lately in the fandom eh?
Glad Somber is not stranded. As for *chans, they are the ultimate expression of the human mind. A unity if you will. I like to go there for scientific reasons to study human psychology. It's fascinating from that point o view.

Also
chapter was not that bad but I think you need to listen to Snipehamster
or "The hero that Project Horizons needs" more. Editors job is not just
proofreading after all. He might want to get too involved though and
that might turn out worse. As for Sindri? He loves you so much that he
will stand by your choices even if the world around you will burn to the
ground. A bit biased in your favor. Juggle these two around. They both
provide helpful feedback. Don't know the others(?) too well to judge
them.

Also I suppose with the way recent events have unfolded are we going to have a break from PH for a while?

[Snipehamster]

Also chapter was not that bad but I think you need to listen to Snipehamster or "The hero that Project Horizons needs" more.

Power trip! Whee!

@The 'let Somber do what he wants' crowd: I offer only my own opinions and advice. While I can be somewhat harsh with my criticisms at times, and perhaps a little too forward with the "if PH were mine I'd do this" approach, it's with the best of intentions. I don't want to boss Somber around, no matter how much it might look like it. I want to help Somber build PH into the best story it can be, and from my perspective the opposite has been happening lately.

/B/-esque 'kill urself PH sux' feedback is useless, but from a critical perspective so is 'omg PH is best ever thing do whatever u want fuk teh haterz' feedback. Somber is talented and dedicated, no doubt, but also human. He will (and does) make mistakes just like everyone else. Far less than he thinks, but still. If Hinds, Bro and I aren't looking out for that, we're not doing our jobs.

That's why I do my best to ask hard questions, offer suggestions, and let them stand or fall on their own merits. Recent events in-story have simply prompted me to do so more often and more loudly, and look upon the rest of the story with a more critical eye.

@Somber: My deepest sympathies for the debacle at Unicon.

[Snipehamster]

Snipe, you've been a PH editor for forever and a day

Since Chapter 28. No idea how I remembered that, but there you go. Technically I'm still the 'new guy'.

and I don't think I've seen any posts on this forum quite as blatantly fanboy-ish as you are describing.

I exaggerated for comic effect, but I think the tone is appropriate.

In any case, I appreciate you posting on the forum more, particularly when you have strong feelings about the direction of the fic. I hope you continue to do so as you've generated some very good discussion.

Thank you. I'll try!

[Mister Nikel]

Probably should not say anything about this but...

Well, Since we are pretty sure that it really WAS Somber, is there a
consensus to support him and keep reading his fic? I know I will. Just
because it has some pretty gaping problems doesn't mean that I didn't
(or don't) enjoy reading it. I mean fuck, i nearly read it three times.
(I know right?) I think Somber should finish it anyway. With that much
time dedicated to it, he deserves a chance to finish it and to have at
least a small audience. Patiently waiting for the next chapter.

>>8645438
As
a rule, I still really fucking love Project Horizons and would love to
see Somber pull it up to a much higher quality before the end.... which I
believe is sorely needed.

>>8645438
Should he finish it?
Definitely,
but I will not encourage others to read it past a certain point. I hope
he can return PH back to what it once was, but I have my doubts.

>>8645438
I'm going to keep reading it.
I want him to keep writing.
But you know, less bullshit.

>>8645497
I
agree, and I really feel for the guy. Putting so much time and effort
into something to get toward the end and people are starting to hate it.

I'd go insane trying to fix it, or die trying.

Some people still have good things to say.

(Did Somber just make Anon feel bad? Holy shit.)

[Kippershy]

Probably should not say anything about this but...
-SNIP-
(Did Somber just make Anon feel bad? Holy shit.)

Now do you see why I'm out of favour with everyone who dismisses the entirety of 4chan as trolls and immaturity?

[Exodus Hero]

I finished the chapter!
Holy hell!
That took forever! D:

Gonna go read comments now.
Dunno quite why I'm announcing this, to be honest, but when you're the last horse to cross the finish line... well, you might as well be inexplicably proud of it.

What's important is you finished it. *thumbs up* :D

[Meleagridis]

Let me preface this by saying I am by no means caught up yet. I've still got some six pages to go before I see everything that's been said before this here post but I've been catching up for too darn long and some things are burning holes in my pockets. A few things, but I'm just going to leave two.

First off, everyone should take a quick looksie at this, a neat little page of two of the nicest bits of PH fanwork.

[legate] then decides to wander off and fap because for some arbitrary reason BJ can't die yet.

Spoiler:

[Snipehamster]

I have to admit, I loved when he popped Lancer's eye and said "Look, Maiden! Another life you've ruined."

I agree. That was a solid 'look how evil this guy is' moment, and the fact that it was pretty much a verbal bitchslap for BJ was a nice bonus.

On the other hand, I think it kinda calls attention to the fact that Lancer's entire role in the story so far (since Ch.9) has been limited to:
1. Present a challenging foe for BJ (She has plenty already).
2. Make BJ's life miserable for no particular reason (She's suicidally miserable without him).
3. Give tiny snippets of distant foreshadowing.

So far as the main plot is concerned, his role has been to (veeeeery slowly) introduce an endgame faction which, in my opinion, isn't needed. As I mentioned before, we already have an apocalyptic cult. And now Lancer's being cast aside and humiliated. From here, I can only see this going one of two ways: either he tries to redeem himself in his father's eyes and finally gets put down by BJ and co., or he becomes Psychoshy II: a betrayed, disillusioned former villain with a lifetime's worth of daddy issues.

I think I'll stick to my guns and say that (ideally) PH would be better off without the Remnant in the first place.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Snipehamster]

I dunno... Stars vs. Zebras? It's kinda been a resounding theme in the story. It happened in the ancient past, it happened in the war, and it is happening now. It is eternal; it's the war that will never be won... at least, not until Project Horizons is activated.

Stars Versus Zebras is a resounding theme, for sure. But is it one that even comes close to fitting the tone of FoE, FiM or Fallout? I'd argue not. PH already has a number of other central themes (the nature and dangers of power, the importance of friends to catch us when we fall, the need to always strive against the darkness that exists both within and without) which do chime very well with these. More importantly, the story's main narrative wouldn't be significantly harmed by the removal of 'stars vs zebras' (keeping the EoS, of course). The zebra religion was at its best when it was built on half-truths and vaguries (see Sekashi's stories from early on).

To remove them entirely? I gotta wonder, who would be around to call her "Star Maiden", then? Who would be around to prophesize about her coming and claim her actions as destiny?

Nobody. These things only mean anything in the context of the Remnant anyway.

Like the Brotherhood, maybe. They are, after all, pretty much over and done. Steel Rain turned out to be a patsy and I never really liked him, anyway. Dawn's group of five different factions all struggling over Hoofington, along with Sanguine's efforts, Caprice's previous ones, Red Eye, The Goddess, and just everyone else... there's way too many groups in the hoof, is what I'm saying.

I agree. Of those factions though, if one of them had to go I'd cut the Goddess (yes, Lacunae and Psalm too) and perhaps Red Eye as well, with the exception of the outfit he sent Sanguine, rather than the Brotherhood. The minor factions give Hoofington its unique character and the Brotherhood lend the Harbingers their muscle (plus the AJ's rangers, who look to be setting up as a late-game ally and a happy ending for what's left of Stable 99) while the Goddess is a spillover from FoE that mostly contributes scene after scene of filler.

But the Remnant, or more particularly some faction lead by the zealous and resilient zebra kind, are intimately hooked to the entire history of the eater of souls. I think they have significant reason to exist for the sake of resisting Blackjack as well as the Harbingers (and anyone else who wants to open up the city and activate all the terrors within).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. The EoS doesn't need two entire and distinct armies, and for the most part the zebras' relevance to the EoS was in its fall; the distant past rather than the present.

Off topic: While /mlp/ isn't the best source for in-depth literary criticism, it is entertaining. Current subject is an r63 version of FoE 20.5. I wonder if they'll do r63 PH 22.5 >.>

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

From here, I can only see this going one of two ways: either he tries to redeem himself in his father's eyes and finally gets put down by BJ and co., or he becomes Psychoshy II: a betrayed, disillusioned former villain with a lifetime's worth of daddy issues.

…Though a third possibility has just occurred to me: he [REDACTED]
And I just realized that that third possibility only makes sense if one has some only technically publicly released information. So never mind. :)

[Snipehamster]

So... we'd leave ancient zebra learning star magic and bringing about the eater's first rise, and the war against equestria being fueled by star hatred, but all the zebra died and there are no more at present that didn't come from Xenith's vault?
Because I'm confused how Sekashi would be in here without the Remnant.

I dunno, it just sounds weird to me that, after struggling against the eater's second rise since the second dawn of their civilization, the zebra are just dead now or, at the very least, any left just aren't interested in fighting against it anymore.

They knew equestria's response would end with their deaths. The zebra still considered it worth it because I believe they feared something worse than death... the consumption of their souls, and the same for the rest of the life left on the planet.

If the remnant weren't there, then... heh, I guess I'd want a "remnant" of them still around, to carry the tradition of struggling against the eater. To tell BJ the stories of its evil. Maybe a smaller group, like the zodiacs.
In fact, it might have been funny if they HAD been the zodiacs. The zodiacs had all been zebra, if enlightened ones, and had fought against BJ, then become somewhat reluctant allies when the Harbringers showed up.

It's just that the zebras are so fanatical about being anti-EOS that I don't see the end of the world stopping them.

Bear in mind that in the original FoE, the zebras weren't anti-EoS, they were anti-stars (and by extension anti-Luna). The whole Eater of Souls thing is a PH creation, so knowledge of it among post-war zebra survivors could vary immensely.

I'd be perfectly the fine with the Remnant existing as a small faction so that we can have zebra characters and insight, along with EoS exposition. Perhaps Sekashi and Xanthe could have slightly different backstories or even be merged. It's DBZebra, his cyberarmy, and the many layers of unncescessary detail that they add to an already complex plot that I take issue with.

[Snipehamster]

It's DBZebra, his cyberarmy, and the many layers of unncescessary detail that they add to an already complex plot that I take issue with.

Kay, fair enough.
My only point was that I wouldn't like the entire lack of a zebra presence. They, their knowledge and their perspective, are important when it comes to understanding the big bad.
And in the original FoE, again, they feared for something worse than just their death, clearly. They were intelligent enough to understand MAD and were willing to do anything to prevent the stars from taking the world through their Nightmare Moon.
Second verse, same as the first.

Completely agreed.

Personally I didn't like the whole zebra religion thing in FoE, but I'm not exactly in a position to edit for Kkat. And generally, I do like the additions Somber's made to the universe's cosmology. The relationship between stars and souls, etc.

[SilentCarto]

There's a big, big jump between conjuring tea (which I would imagine any suitably skilled and prepared illusionist could do irl anyway) and shrugging off being shot, blown up and gutted.

And there's a big jump between levitating teakettles and power-lifting a building-sized bear. It's only a quantitative change, though, not a qualitative one. My point was that Zecora conjuring tea could be read as low-grade elementalism. Maybe she's just Lyra to the Legate's Twilight Sparkle. The invulnerability, on the other hoof, is honestly nothing we haven't seen before. We've seen at least three different flavors of regenerator between FOE and PH, and the enhanced armor isn't even as indestructable as the soul-jar suit that took BJ's leg in Hightower. Sure, there's a question of "How did he do that?", but I'd love it if everyone would let Somber finish the story arc before declaring it Ruined Forever.

By the way, has anyone yet considered that sucking the blood back into his wound might be an application of waterbending? Just tossing it out there.

More to the point, whether or not one can rationalize the Legate's powers in-universe there's still the issue of justifying them from a meta perspective.

At this point, I've more or less stopped caring about the characters because their actions no longer have consequences besides angst and the occasional bereavement or mutilation (which rarely has a long term effect). The uber-powerful Legate never registers as dramatic or a credible threat because in order to do so he'd need to seriously shake up the status quo. Something well-established as bloody hard to do.

That kind of thinking is what killed Wash in Serenity. How many mutilations per chapter do we need to hit, exactly? I'll admit that, yes, I didn't expect anyone to get hurt by the Legate simply because he was so far beyond the party that he obviously could have obliterated them all in moments if that's what he was after. But are you seriously telling me you weren't worried that Sunset would get away with kidnapping Glory? I sure was.

The Legate isn't something tossed in because the writers didn't know what to do next and they refused to let the series die.

I don't have enough upvotes for this.

Seeing how Somber tends to internalize criticism, not a lot of these complaints are presented in ways helpful to him.

This. I don't normally ask people I disagree with to shut up, but at this point can we consider the complaints registered and let it drop? I don't want to see Somber change course just to suit the complainers.

Somber, don't doubt yourself. Just stick to your plans and keep going. You haven't failed us so far, and I don't believe that you're going to.

Following that, once the story's done, I'd invite harsh criticism, suggestions and discussion with an eye to carrying out Past Sins-esque edits to address any major issues left over.

I'd like to point out that Past Sins' edits, while they fixed some issues, also broke some important emotional arcs and destroyed more than one plot point.

[SilentCarto]

While I have no authority or power to enforce this, I request that we just drop the current discussions. There are those of us here who enjoyed the last chapter and there are those who didn't, up to and including members of the brushing team and I think we can agree on that.

Yeah, agreed. I'm dropping it as of now.

To speak in crude terms, 4chan is like the Black Hole of the internet, a singularity of the worst the 'net has to offer ; instead that in lieu of being a black hole you could more accurately picture it as a giant asshole suffering from a severe case of explosive diarrhea, directing the foulest humors of its intestines to all it can reach.
Always.
Forever.
What I mean is, don't pay attention to anything 4chan has to say. That'd be silly.

This made me laugh way too much. To paraphrase and reformat per George Orwell,
"If you want a picture of 4chan, imagine an asshole shitting on the entire internet -- forever."

(Sorry, I know I shouldn't retell other people's jokes...)

On another note, the name of the largest known galaxy in real life is... IC 1101.

I dunno... Stars vs. Zebras? It's kinda been a resounding theme in the story. It happened in the ancient past, it happened in the war, and it is happening now. It is eternal; it's the war that will never be won... at least, not until Project Horizons is activated.

On this subject, I want to note that PH is responsible for restoring my faith in the FOE universe. FOE kind of left it on the note of Cthuluesque monstrosities dwelling between the stars, whispering terrible secrets to those who would listen. PH acknowledges that they exist, but adds an equally powerful force for life and hope in opposition to them.

The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins—but in the heart of its strength lies weakness:
One lone candle is enough to hold it back.
--Matthew Stover, Revenge of the Sith novelization

[SilentCarto]

Was there ever any discussion on what type of "healing" the legate is doing, though?
Because it doesn't look like healing. The blood jumped right back up into his neck. Even if he has elemental control of liquids it seems kinda iffy that he'd go and stuff all the blood back in there.

It's more like reversing time or something, I thought.

It kinda looked like his blood "knew" where it was supposed to be, to me. Like if you pull two magnets apart and they just snap right back together. There was definitely some healing/regen going on there too, but when you get right down to it, if the things you cut apart with a sword don't fall away from each other, there's not actually that much damage going on...

[Derpmind]

Was there ever any discussion on what type of "healing" the legate is doing, though?
Because it doesn't look like healing. The blood jumped right back up into his neck. Even if he has elemental control of liquids it seems kinda iffy that he'd go and stuff all the blood back in there.

It's more like reversing time or something, I thought.

It kinda looked like his blood "knew" where it was supposed to be, to me. Like if you pull two magnets apart and they just snap right back together. There was definitely some healing/regen going on there too, but when you get right down to it, if the things you cut apart with a sword don't fall away from each other, there's not actually that much damage going on...

To explain it another way: Think of it like the Legate's a machine with a repair talisman. Instead of a repair talisman that rebuilds a broken machine out of a reserve of spare parts, such as how BJ's cyborg implants repair themselves, this talisman pulls the pieces back together like they've never been damaged in the first place. (I think we saw MEGA DEUS do the latter? I know we've seen examples before but I can't think of any right now.) Instead of the usual flavor of healing magic that has the body grow back, the Legate's got a super-crazy advanced spell thamaturgical effect that treats it like a picture puzzle: Insert the pieces in the right slot and everything's peachy.

Seeing how Somber tends to
internalize criticism, not a lot of these complaints are presented in
ways helpful to him.

This. I don't normally ask people I
disagree with to shut up, but at this point can we consider the
complaints registered and let it drop? I don't want to see Somber change
course just to suit the complainers.

Signal boost here. That conversation's spiraling into a circle that goes absolutely nowhere.

[Retl]

On the other hand, I think it kinda calls attention to the fact that Lancer's entire role in the story so far (since Ch.9) has been limited to:
1. Present a challenging foe for BJ (She has plenty already).
2. Make BJ's life miserable for no particular reason (She's suicidally miserable without him).
3. Give tiny snippets of distant foreshadowing.

He serves as a early indicator for the reader that not everyone who joins and helps Blackjack is actually aligned with Blackjack's goals, and installs a bit more distrust of Zebras in the reader. That may be considered foreshadowing, though.

[StoneSlinger88]

My brain is processing something... His healing powers... Are something we've seen before... in FiM...

Timberwolves. They can get smashed apart and pulled back together. Perhaps the zebra found a way to apply the same healing mechanics into a talisman?

[Moodyman90]

Details like the actual chapter number and the name of the place escape me right now but it was where Blackjack ended up throwing up glass over that poor zebra. The zebra where there looking for the phoenix talisman because they didn't know it was passed onto Twist during the war and is now in Rampage.

Oh god my brain is failing. I'm forgetting names....

[OneMoreDaySK]

Re: Timberwolf DBZebra
That would be hilarious, if he got blown up, possibly by MegaDeus, then just started reattaching himself via talisman. Then in a later (part of the?) fight, It happens again, but Blackjack jams something in to mess with the reattachment process. Also, I'm taking a liking to call him DBZebra for some odd reason.

[jacky2734]

I just realized something really nasty that might happen.

There was a statement somewhere in one chapter along the line that when the virus that causes the Cannibal Raiders infected the cooking pot of a zebra tribe, that pot would remain infected, even after the most thorough cleaning.

The entire food processing plant of 99 was infected with that virus. If the AJ Rangers get that up and running and use it, than we could be looking at Power Armor Toting Cannibal Raiders.

[Stringtheory]

I just realized something really nasty that might happen.

There was a statement somewhere in one chapter along the line that when the virus that causes the Cannibal Raiders infected the cooking pot of a zebra tribe, that pot would remain infected, even after the most thorough cleaning.

The entire food processing plant of 99 was infected with that virus. If the AJ Rangers get that up and running an use it, than we could be looking at Power Armor Toting Cannibal Raiders.

so does that mean BJ will have to return yet again to completely torch/melt the place?

[jacky2734]

I just realized something really nasty that might happen.

There was a statement somewhere in one chapter along the line that when the virus that causes the Cannibal Raiders infected the cooking pot of a zebra tribe, that pot would remain infected, even after the most thorough cleaning.

The entire food processing plant of 99 was infected with that virus. If the AJ Rangers get that up and running an use it, than we could be looking at Power Armor Toting Cannibal Raiders.

so does that mean BJ will have to return yet again to completely torch/melt the place?

That depends. do you think Somber would be willing to do that to Blackjack?

[Caoimhe]

Re: Too many factions

Keep in mind that Hoofington is basically Pony New York (don't Manehattan me). I'm assuming that it covers a similar (if not larger) land area and was relatively densely populated. It's entirely possible for so many damn factions to form post-war given the amount of territory that can be controlled. Zebras and dogs and everyone else really add to the 'melting pot' allegories as well. Hell, you could call the zeebs the American Indians of Pony New York whose land was swindled and are now back to do something about it.

If I had any requests (and maybe it's because the way my female brain works), I'd like a little more detail into what exactly the various settings look like. I can't help but imagine every place BJ and crew wander into is either sparse as fuck desert or dense buildings around a main street. Maybe I'm just being weird but sometimes the brief area descriptions don't cut it always for me. I had a little trouble figuring out how 'underground' we went in the last chapter and there was a part where it seemed like Our Heroes were far away observing everything going on in the base and then right there.


Edit: Didn't word reach the Rangers at 99 not to fuck with the food thing?

[SilentCarto]

Do you think he's alive? Or a really sophisticated robot?

Oh, definitely alive. But the guy's got talismans carved into his freaking teeth. I wouldn't be shocked if one of them somewhere on or in him said, "Hey blood, you're supposed to be inside me. Stay there."

To explain it another way: Think of it like the Legate's a machine with a repair talisman. Instead of a repair talisman that rebuilds a broken machine out of a reserve of spare parts, such as how BJ's cyborg implants repair themselves, this talisman pulls the pieces back together like they've never been damaged in the first place. (I think we saw MEGA DEUS do the latter? I know we've seen examples before but I can't think of any right now.) Instead of the usual flavor of healing magic that has the body grow back, the Legate's got a super-crazy advanced spell thamaturgical effect that treats it like a picture puzzle: Insert the pieces in the right slot and everything's peachy.

Something like that, yes. All equipment fitted with repair talismans uses existing material wherever possible and just fills in the gaps with new metal. We saw Steelhooves' armor do that too.

I just realized something really nasty that might happen.

There was a statement somewhere in one chapter along the line that when the virus that causes the Cannibal Raiders infected the cooking pot of a zebra tribe, that pot would remain infected, even after the most thorough cleaning.

The entire food processing plant of 99 was infected with that virus. If the AJ Rangers get that up and running and use it, than we could be looking at Power Armor Toting Cannibal Raiders.

Well, the Rangers were warned about the virus. I would assume they would check everything before consuming it, considering the consequences.

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