Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Ironmonger]

*russian accent* Hmm...Admin make good point...maybe...*sniff*...maybe...

[OneMoreDaySK]

When you already have a team of badasses that could
clean up Hoofington after BJ is gone, it wasn't actually necessary. Yes,
you could say that Glory, P21, Rampage and them would have broken apart
without her, but I doubt it. They've been through a lot together, so I
doubt they would just drift apart because BJ died, if anything I would
anticipate them wanting to keep her memory alive by continuing on for
her.

Not necessarily. Especially since P-21 would still have to deal with his addiction and the daughter thing a that point. If Blackjack hadn't confronted him about that the rest wouldn't have done anything about it. Or else why not deal with it themselves even if Blackjack was still around. Not sure about the psyche of Glory, but methinks losing Blackjack permanently would have set her over the edge, since she lost pretty much everything she cared for.

[CamoBadger]

When you already have a team of badasses that could
clean up Hoofington after BJ is gone, it wasn't actually necessary. Yes,
you could say that Glory, P21, Rampage and them would have broken apart
without her, but I doubt it. They've been through a lot together, so I
doubt they would just drift apart because BJ died, if anything I would
anticipate them wanting to keep her memory alive by continuing on for
her.

Not necessarily. Especially since P-21 would still have to deal with his addiction and the daughter thing a that point. If Blackjack hadn't confronted him about that the rest wouldn't have done anything about it. Or else why not deal with it themselves even if Blackjack was still around.

Because as long as she's around they know that she'll lead them and do things herself. If she was gone, they wouldn't have that option and would have to adapt. And as for the daughter thing, so what if he doesn't talk to Scotch about it? He didn't seem to care much about it, the only reason that he started to was because BJ brought it up and tried to convince him he should care about Scotch.

And I'm pretty sure that Rampage could help him with that addiction, she's a tad of an expert on that sort of thing.

[Caoimhe]

Blackjack being stupid is what's saving the world. Smart ponies can't do what she does.

[Ironmonger]

Blackjack being stupid is what's saving the world. Smart ponies can't do what she does.

In other words she doesn't have the same mental restraints holding her back...at least that's how I understand this. I'm TakingALevelInSmart lately.

EDIT: Motherfucking downvoter...*grinds teeth*

[OneMoreDaySK]

When you already have a team of badasses that could
clean up Hoofington after BJ is gone, it wasn't actually necessary. Yes,
you could say that Glory, P21, Rampage and them would have broken apart
without her, but I doubt it. They've been through a lot together, so I
doubt they would just drift apart because BJ died, if anything I would
anticipate them wanting to keep her memory alive by continuing on for
her.

Not necessarily. Especially since P-21 would still have to deal with his addiction and the daughter thing a that point. If Blackjack hadn't confronted him about that the rest wouldn't have done anything about it. Or else why not deal with it themselves even if Blackjack was still around.

Because as long as she's around they know that she'll lead them and do things herself. If she was gone, they wouldn't have that option and would have to adapt. And as for the daughter thing, so what if he doesn't talk to Scotch about it? He didn't seem to care much about it, the only reason that he started to was because BJ brought it up and tried to convince him he should care about Scotch.

And I'm pretty sure that Rampage could help him with that addiction, she's a tad of an expert on that sort of thing.

All I see is a bad end for Scotch in this alternate universe. Holes in her memories, and with no one caring for her, pretty sure the Angel would be going after her. With Scotch dead, that would add some more emotional toll to P-21. And as for Rampage helping, would she? Especially if the above scenario occurred?

[CamoBadger]

And lucky, you forgot lucky.

But yes, she does stupid stuff her enemies don't expect and that helps her alot, but I think that the rest of the group could figure stuff out with her gone. First off, Rampage can't die, and she's never seemed to give two craps about being shot, chewed on, lasered, shot again, etc. so I think she might be able to make more of a difference than you think, along with Glory, P21 and Scotch to keep her in line.

Second, Glory would be devestated at first, but eventually I think she would start to keep up BJ's memory by continuing what she started and doing everything she could to try and make BJ proud.

P21 would probably just get pissed off and kill raiders left and right, and surprisingly not bitch and moan about doing it, which I wouldn't mind at all.

And Scotch would still be mentally scarred by BJ messing with her brain and never talk with P21 about being her dad. So she might be in a shittier place, and then Rampage would probably try to kill her, which might finally get P21 to put on his daddy pants to save his daughter. The two form a stronger relationship.

And all together the team kills bad guys WITHOUT whining about killing them. (Yes, that is a big issue I have with BJ)

[RoboRed]

*Video*

And that children is what happens to Admins.

You forgot two commas. It should be "And that, children, is what happens to Admins".

(/potshot)
(/heilgrammar)

[Ironmonger]

*Video*

And that children is what happens to Admins.

You forgot two commas. It should be "And that, children, is what happens to Admins".

(/potshot)
(/heilgrammar)

"Go to heil." -Excerpt from a conversation one day between Ironmonger and Frost

[Frost]

Meanwhile, I come back from a one-day absence and find we've had Iron going Fez-Mode again, a brief discussion on R34, and a long discussion on bringing BJ back to life.

If I were making the decision, I wouldn't have brought her back. Yes, you've lost a huge resource, but utter reliance on one pony or a group of ponies is why the world is like it is come FoE-time. When everyone stands up is when salvation comes. Each must be their own savior.

[Caoimhe]

I gotta keep thinking, except for PLOT, how the hell has no one discovered anything about Goldenblood/OIA before. Lotta shit been laying around for 200 years. Not to mention all the guns and vital healing potions.

[CamoBadger]

Because only Stable Dwellers and their current/future companions are allowed to touch memory orbs and old terminals, nobody else can even see them. Yet they all still know about them and what they do...

Also, I don't think anyone in the Wasteland could give less of a crap about pre-Wasteland Equestria. Not like if they watch a memory orb it will magically make their lives better somehow...
hell, even the ones that FOE protagonists look into do anything more than give background on places, ponies, etc. and then cause depression for a few days.

[Ironmonger]

Iron going Fez-Mode

[Caoimhe]

Oh duh, it makes sense that only stabley folk would give a shit about what happened, instead of someone born into festering poverty just doign what they can to survive.

FoE is about class warfare and the ignorant bourgeois claiming superiour right over the proles.

The Murk shall inherit the Earth

[Frost]

FoE is about class warfare and the ignorant bourgeois claiming superiour right over the proles.

The Murk shall inherit the Earth

We gettin' political up in this bitch

[Ironmonger]

Oh duh, it makes sense that only stabley folk would give a shit about what happened, instead of someone born into festering poverty just doign what they can to survive.

FoE is about class warfare and the ignorant bourgeois claiming superiour right over the proles.

The Murk shall inherit the Earth

Don't forget about communism. Damn Stalliongradese...

[Icy Shake]

And it looks like the thread fissioned while I was replying. Porting over, so sorry for the poor formatting.

And this is why dead ponies should stay dead.

"She was raped by an entire raider gang, killed a room full of foals, and died in one of the worst ways imaginable as her body slowly broke down from taint and radiation...WE SHOULD BRING HER BACK TO LIFE!"

Yes, I do have serious issues with Glory's logic at this point.

Oooh, controversial.

While I disagree because STORY, you can argue that it's nature to want to do everything to save the ones you love. She was .00000000001% living at that point and with Rampage's nervous system, there was hope and a way to save her, so they did. When you look at everything that's happened since, even with all the negatives, it was worth keeping her around, even for herself.

I'm with you here. It's also worth noting that Glory was perhaps the
strongest believer that life always should have a chance to go on, even
if the costs are high and there's a high probability the person would
never really recover--she was the vote in favor of not killing the room full of foals, after all.

That is true, it ended up being a good thing she stayed around, but they couldn't have known that ahead of time, so it was a pretty dumb choice for them to have made like that.

Also, it really conflicts with my beliefs on death, because if your time has come then that's it, it's over. Giving one pony a second chance to live like that is incredibly selfish, and I'm pretty sure the other ponies living around Hoofington might be slightly pissed off that Security was saved when their loved ones all stay dead.

I'm afraid I can't jump on board that fatalism train. While there is
much to be said for dying with dignity, at the time of one's choosing.
But on the other hand, I do think that if one wishes to keep going on,
and it's a feasible option, then I think that it should be up to them.
And Blackjack did give Glory permission to do whatever she wanted to keep her alive, short of going to Sanguine. Sure, she didn't expect it to work, but ultimately that's just another case where Blackjack and Glory did a poor job of communicating.

As
for the selfishness/envy line of argument, I just don't see it that
way. Look, the fact is that in their odd time of techno-magical marvels
combined with extreme scarcity, amazing things can happen--once or
twice. They can't save everybody, but the owners of the tech certainly
have the right to use it to save whom they wish, and the It's a Wonderful Life scenario
that played out is a testament not only to the generosity of those who
pitched in, but to the selflessness of the mare who gave so much to them
first. While certainly her renewal could inspire envy among some in the
wasteland, the same could be said of any other good turn of fortune or
work of charity.

Blackjack of course feels guilty about the costs
she believes she imposed on her benefactors, but personally I think
that's more in keeping with the fact that she feels that way about
everything she is involved in than a rational line of thought.

[CamoBadger]

As for the selfishness/envy line of argument, I just don't see it that way. Look, the fact is that in their odd time of techno-magical marvels combined with extreme scarcity, amazing things can happen--once or twice. They can't save everybody, but the owners of the tech certainly have the right to use it to save whom they wish, and the It's a Wonderful Life scenario that played out is a testament not only to the generosity of those who pitched in, but to the selflessness of the mare who gave so much to them first. While certainly her renewal could inspire envy among some in the wasteland, the same could be said of any other good turn of fortune or work of charity.

That is still selfishness, because they could have done this whenever they wanted apparently if all Glory had to do was ask, and they just kept it to themselves without even mentioning it to anyone. True, BJ did help them all somehow, but she was still absolutely miserable in every way leading up to her death. They basically brought her back because she's the 'only hope' for Hoofington, and they didn't consider how BJ would feel for even a second. As I said at the start, she was mentally, physically, psychologically, and morally tormented every second of ever day before she died; if any of her 'benefactors' had been in her hooves I don't think they would be very big on returning to that hell of a life.

[222222]

But she didn't return to that hell of a life, she regained her vision and her movement, got relative safety for a while, got a chance to redeem herself in her own eyes for how she dealt with Scotch, and got to continue living with the love of her life. Sure some bad shit happened when she was dying, but when they brought her back most of that shit was gone.

[Ironmonger]

While I'm thinking of this, does anyone think Blackjack will find a way to destroy the Eater of Souls?

[222222]

@Ironmonger: yes, but I am not sure if she will survive the battle herself.

[Ironmonger]

@Ironmonger: yes, but I am not sure if she will survive the battle herself.

Valid point, it's one thing to fight overwhelming odds against monsters, it's quite another to fight a supernatural entity. (correct me if I'm missing something)

[Valikdu]

I agree with the Kattsesment of the fandom. There's a lot of stuff I notice that's like "here's my baddass pony with COOL UNIQUE CLOTHES MY OC DO NOT STEAL" and that's the end of it, or two dimensional personalities ie "This one is mean terrible villian and this one is a slut, go hog wild." Yeesh.

...and it's very easy to quickly distinguish this from the stuff you'd like to read and go look for another one. And there's downvoting.

[222222]

@Ironmonger: if she doesn't find a way to at least attempt to defeat the Eater of Souls, then I'm not sure what Somber's end game here really is. I can only think of three other possibilities really.
And then they all ignored the invincible evil monster towering over the hoof? Unlikely.
And then they all gave in to despair because victory was impossible? Possible, but I don't think that fits in with PH's theme of always trying to do better, even if you fail.
And then massive Deus Ex Machina? I certainly hope not.

[Ironmonger]

@Ironmonger: if she doesn't find a way to at least attempt to defeat the Eater of Souls, then I'm not sure what Somber's end game here really is. I can only think of three other possibilities really.
And then they all ignored the invincible evil monster towering over the hoof? Unlikely.
And then they all gave in to despair because victory was impossible? Possible, but I don't think that fits in with PH's theme of always trying to do better, even if you fail.
And then massive Deus Ex Machina? I certainly hope not.

The train of thought is mutual apparently.

[Icy Shake]

As for the selfishness/envy line of argument, I just don't see it that way. Look, the fact is that in their odd time of techno-magical marvels combined with extreme scarcity, amazing things can happen--once or twice. They can't save everybody, but the owners of the tech certainly have the right to use it to save whom they wish, and the It's a Wonderful Life scenario that played out is a testament not only to the generosity of those who pitched in, but to the selflessness of the mare who gave so much to them first. While certainly her renewal could inspire envy among some in the wasteland, the same could be said of any other good turn of fortune or work of charity.

That is still selfishness, because they could have done this whenever they wanted apparently if all Glory had to do was ask, and they just kept it to themselves without even mentioning it to anyone. True, BJ did help them all somehow, but she was still absolutely miserable in every way leading up to her death. They basically brought her back because she's the 'only hope' for Hoofington, and they didn't consider how BJ would feel for even a second. As I said at the start, she was mentally, physically, psychologically, and morally tormented every second of ever day before she died; if any of her 'benefactors' had been in her hooves I don't think they would be very big on returning to that hell of a life.

Well, I'm not entirely sure I agree here. While many of the augmentations could be done independently, I think it's reasonable that the sand dogs and the Collegiate might not really feel like making that kind of huge contribution to someone with terminal cancer. And by the looks of it, the key limiting factor was the need for synthetic organs, which were obtainable only from Silver Stripe. It seems that she was really on board with donating hers, but that could only be accomplished after Blackjack let Glory help her, and was out of the picture; before that Blackjack would have nixed the idea immediately. Such is sometimes the danger of ceding medical power of attorney to someone who will do anything to keep you alive that you did not expressly forbid.

Now yes, I agree that going against Blackjack's wishes was in that way somewhat selfish of Glory. And she had been in profound misery of all kinds for some days prior to the operation, yes. But I think that everyone believed in her, and that she would be able to recover from the mental and psychological wounds as well as the physical. Frankly, I don't see that large a difference between this and when Watcher prevented her from completing suicide weeks before. The shit had been turned up to eleven this time around, sure, but at a fundamental level each case was about keeping Blackjack's despair from allowing her to die. And to tell the truth, nothing was stopping Blackjack from just killing herself anyway, or asking for euthanasia--except perhaps her love of, and feelings of responsibility to, her friends. So while I can understand that when life is torment one may not wish it to go on, I believe that the proper response*--and the proper choice in this context--is not to simply end the pain, but to help make things better for the person in the situation.

*When helping is possible and has a reasonable chance of success.

Edit:

But she didn't return to that hell of
a life, she regained her vision and her movement, got relative safety
for a while, got a chance to redeem herself in her own eyes for how she
dealt with Scotch, and got to continue living with the love of her life.
Sure some bad shit happened when she was dying, but when they brought
her back most of that shit was gone.

This. They weren't just bringing her back to her old life, but actively helping to improve from the status quo ante.

[Ironmonger]

So while I can understand that when life is torment one may not wish it to go on, I believe that the proper response*--and the proper choice in this context--is not to simply end the pain, but to help make things better for the person in the situation.

*When helping is possible and has a reasonable chance of success.

I forced myself to have understanding of a similar ideology so I brohoof you.

[Guest]

:( Icy Shake going and making all my points for me. Suffice it to say that I agree with him and that he's pretty much touched on everything I wanted to say on this topic already.

@Caoimhe
As someone with some small experience in both the online world and novice-level creative writing courses, I can tell you this much: godawful, unoriginal OCs and piss-poor characterizations are NOT confined to this or any fandom. They aren't even confined to the world of unpublished fiction (Terry Goodkind, I am giving you the stinkeye right now; you too, James Patterson - I'd probably be looking at you as well, Ms. Meyer, but I've never been tricked into reading any of your work). It'd sure be nice if MLPFIM stories never had either, but I'm not holding my breath for it. Novice writers all gotta start somewhere, and most start without an ounce of skill or knowledge. Or proper grammar. Or awareness of theme and the greater literary world that their work exists in and interacts with. Or, well, a lot of things, many of which I'm sure I lack. They'll get better, or they'll stop. (Or they'll get paid millions upon millions of dollars for half-assed, derivative drivel =P)

[Ironmonger]

I've been wracking my brain for a way to contribute and I got nothing, nearly everything has been said on the two topics.

I'd like to bring up laser and plasma weaponry. Is there a way to keep from being disintegrated aside from shiny metal, wards and energy shields? One of my OC's is a minotaur behemoth (nod to Fallout 3) and his role is damage tanking, it would really suck if he got glanced by a laser and turned to goo.

[IncoherentOrange]

@Bad OCs, etc.

Many a story has characters based upon being cool.

Many a story is bad.

Many a story has these two things in common.

It's easy to write a 'cool' character, (*cough* OC alicorns *cough*) sure, but it goes without saying that cool characters are absolutely not always good characters. FiMFiction is a breeding ground for these types of story and their authors--FiM is a really cool fantasy kitchen sink, with justifications for just about any power an author can give a character. Hell, even super-cool things like teleportation and weather control are canon and not restricted to certain individuals (though teleportation is clearly not something most unicorns know how to do). It, like just about any universe such as this, also invites self-insertion. What if I were there? Which is where I started. (Call me scum, I'll agree with you.) That, combined with a thought process of "If he can do it, I can do it without doing x!" (If you're wondering, the story in question was Hands, and x was romance. I don't like romance, especially rushed HiE romance.)

Multiple mediocre stories later, I now know much more about writing. It takes practice and time, something many authors don't stick around to get, or bother to try to get. Trying is easy. Succeeding, not so much. This has been said before, probably, but that doesn't make it any more true.

So you get novice writers who think cool characters will do their story good. They are, most often, wrong.

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