Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Cptadder]

Dyyastys are immortal (So they hope), Celestia is her own walking talking immortal Dynasty, a Dynasty of one under the Sun throne of the Glorious Sun Princcess, but we are not talking about Celestia we are talking about Luna who is a different kettle of fish.

I honestly have no idea what this string of words is intended to mean. Could you clarify?

Luna is not Celestia, Luna will not be treated the same way by the aristocracy as Celestia is. The aristocracy has had a thousand years to get used to the idea that the top spot is quite firmly filled by the Dynasty of Celestia. The important thing about Dynasty is that they persist. If you meet a Rothchild and they are a member of that family, people who know will treat them differently because they belong to the famed Rothchild dynasty. Even if the Rothchilds are not in charge of a quarter of the worlds finances anymore they are still well connected and the name commands respect. The dynasty was born of one very good and slightly lucky individual however.

Celestia is her own dynasty, she is her own long running example of why the name "Celestia" should be trusted, feared and respected. If she ever had children (cousin Cadence implies something) and they shared her name and rank then your ready to go. Luna could if she wanted to as sister of Celestia claim a portion of her Celestia's infulence. Again we don't have anything in the real world to compare it to, but a universally beloved ruler who has a thousand year record of success to draw on does not exist on Earth. But we can draw a comparison, how easy do you think it would be if you were related to Santa Christ ( the hybrid combination of Jesus and Santa Clause) to get a meeting with someone important, if we really did have a Santa Christ running around healing the sick and delivering toys to good children? I'm guessing your name would get you places even if you had no other qualifications beyond it. That ties back into the Dynasty thing. You get the respect but again your not treated as the person.

Celesta=Immortal Ruler
Luna=Related to the ruler, someone you want on your side

Have you ever heard of a Trophy wife/husband Sindri?

Your attempts at condescension do not make you more convincing. A trophy wife is a mutually beneficial arrangement, at least in the eyes on those involved, where one with youth and looks gets the money and some peripherals of status of a better off but romantically hopeless partner, while said partner avoids the social stigma of being unable to "land" a romantic partner and experiences all the dubious joys of loveless marriage to a greedy but beautiful young person. It has very little connection to politics and absolutely no relevance to the topic at hand because none of those involved would desire to be on either end of such an arrangement.

First off I'll apologize for my tone, it was not my intent to give offense. I was generally taken aback by your line of reasoning. To re-iterate, why does my old grandmother tried to introduce to two sisters of a socialite family in Californa. It was not because she thought love was in bloom, No it was because she was good friends with the matron of that family and said matron was impressed with the nice young sailor and approved of his manners and bearing. She being of a traditional mindset thought it best to try and pair off two of her granddaughters to see if I'd go after either one. My grandmother was only to happy to help the scheme because this is how one does things in the old country. No dowries changed hands, no kingdoms were at stake, just the wishes of two old matriarchs wanting to tie the families together in more than friendship because both believe in the concept of blood.

My point is, this kind of thinking is far from dead as the kind of people doing said thinking are... far from dead. My own mother thinks in this way as does my various aunts and uncles. Marrying the woman you love is nice, but could you not come to love the daughter of a particular well connected or well financed family.

It comes back to Social circles.

I assume you've never met someone who had an arranged marriage or was promised at birth? Pones are not perfect and where you have aristocracy such things develop naturally because such arrangements are useful to ensure smooth and stable control. (Pun not intended) With smooth control you also gain the benefit of easy exercise of power which is someone people with power always strive for.

I have, actually. And yes, if there were many warring factions all struggling for control of the nation, such marriages would almost certainly be common as ways to bind together alliances and consolidate power. But smooth and stable control is already ensured. The rulership is not decided by committee, or passed down a particular line, or determined by how large a particular faction within the aristocracy grows. The rulership is, and has been for over a millennium (longer than any single human society has existed without at least a massive restructuring event), a single mare. Celestia has absolute power and has always had absolute power. There has not been a single war with Equestrian involvement since Nightmare Moon's first ascension. Unlike a human dynasty, where continuation of the line is always a primary concern and powerful rivals are a constant on all sides, there is no way for the Princess to lose power other than a rebellion on a massive scale (among a people who have never fought a war and almost universally love their ruler because of the utopia she allows them to live in) or voluntarily stepping down. The petty nobles down the chain may very well have had political marriages to hold onto whatever dubious claims to scraps of power had filtered down, but at Luna's level there is no requirement for such, and in fact no benefit to doing so.

Your correct in your first statement incorrect in the second. Yes the top spot is filled, but there are quite a good many scraps of power to fall from the Princesses table. Celestia is not omnipresent, there are six other major cities to literally lord over. There are vast tracks of lands to administer. There are taxes to be collected, construction projects to be constructed and a thousand and one other things that come along with goverment that Celestia can not give her personal attention. Heck from all indications the Sparkle family is a minor family in a still larger aristocratic clan. Remember Blueblood? That is exactly the sort of social climber to go after Luna. Even if she has exactly zero percent interest in any noble unicorn they will have interest in her. And one of the best ways to shut down attention without out and out ordering your subjects to knock it off is to either stay out of the capital, keep an extra low profile... or put out a strawpony, they would leave her alone if they thought one of their number had "won" the game already.

Ponies are far from perfect, yes. Individually, they are almost identical to humans. But Equestrian society has developed in a way that humanity has never seen for longer than many reliable accounts of our history have endured. Their culture is completely different and you need to take such things into account rather than looking for a historical equivalent in our world which is superficially similar but has entirely different context. Don't just look at how things played out, look at why they happened as they did, what cultural norms caused events, what the origins of those cultural norms were, how those would be different in another world, and rebuild from there. In the case of politics and marriage, it simply doesn't make sense for things to develop in the way you assume to be obvious. Just look at the one canonical example of a marriage we have: a ruling Princess... and a low-born watch captain, marrying for love.

I am not basing this analysis of Equestria on direct 1 to 1 human world to pony world comparisons. I have done so in the past and will do so in the future. Instead of am basing my analysis on the ideas of nobility itself.

No matter the culture, no matter the time period, the instant you tell any group of humans that they are better than others from birth by virtue of who they were born to.... you get certain patterns.

Patterns that a canon show character like Blueblood and the two socialite unicorns who's names escape me fall into perfectly. The patterns of behavior that Diamond Tiara and Silver spoon fall into. These are the same patterns of behavior that those who become noble adopt once a few generations have passed and the rentier culture takes hold.

[FeatherDust]

I know I'm late to this party, but Glory's mother is without a doubt, the leader of the harbringers.

I disagree, for one very important reason:

I don't want it to be true!

[Vergil]

I know I'm late to this party, but Glory's mother is without a doubt, the leader of the harbringers.

I disagree, for one very important reason:

I don't want it to be true!

You and me both, but Kipper's definitely right.

[FeatherDust]

That's a point - who remembers how they got into Fallout Equestria?

SilentCarto got me into it around ch20 of FoE. I had between reading quite a bit of fanfic already so it was kind of a combination of his saying it was really good and the "what the hell?!" factor. I have been a fan of the Fallout series since the first one came out.

[Ironmonger]

MaximillianVeers

I looked him up and DEACTIVATED ACCOUNT! THIS OFFENDS SLAANESH! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! IRON WITHIN IRON WITHOUT! EVERY OTHER CHAOS PISSED-OFF WARCRY! RRRRRRRRRR *foaming at the mouth*

[O. Hinds]

That's a point - who remembers how they got into Fallout Equestria?


I seriously wish I remembered. I remember Somber promoting chapter 15 of Horizons having just been released in the chat box on whichever chapter had just been released for the main story with that, but not the original.

I'd been seeing FoE update for a while, I was bored, and I thought to myself "Well, let's see just how big a trainwreck this is."

The first Fallout game I played was a no sound, no talking heads DOS version of Fallout 1. FoE is actually the thing that made me start seriously trying to get Windows software to run, now that I think about it.

[Ketchup]

I know I'm late to this party, but Glory's mother is without a doubt, the leader of the harbringers.

I disagree, for one very important reason:

I don't want it to be true!

I disagree because it doesn't seem to make sense. We may know very little about what she's been up to since the group split, and that she's a pegasus, but I don't think that makes her the leader of the Harbingers automatically.
And she's a very likable character to me.
And, why would she want to attack the mare her daughter is travelling with?

[Icy Shake]

Ah, how did I come to read FoE? Let's see if I can remember...
Well, I had watched the first season over the early summer of 2011. I'd been following several Membase pages for a couple years already. Now, I believe that this should have been well before the pony ban and subsequent MLB separation, and I kept seeing things related to Cupcakes, but didn't get the joke. Enter Google, and I find the fic on Equestria Daily. I don't recall being too impressed, but was looking around the site, and one of its chapter updates was in the sidebar. I clicked through--I think it was in the teens or very early twenties, as the chapter list was unbroken at the time--and caught up probably sometime in the late twenties/early thirties--at any rate before the eighty thousand word chapter was released, I believe.
I started PH after getting caught up on FoE (I think it was the second ongoing fic I read), and almost stopped a few chapters in before feeling like it picked up some time in the latter half of the single digit chapters.

[Kippershy]

I know I'm late to this party, but Glory's mother is without a doubt, the leader of the harbringers.

I disagree, for one very important reason:

I don't want it to be true!

I disagree because it doesn't seem to make sense. We may know very little about what she's been up to since the group split, and that she's a pegasus, but I don't think that makes her the leader of the Harbingers automatically.
And she's a very likable character to me.
And, why would she want to attack the mare her daughter is travelling with?

-very likeable
-as in, high charisma
-high enough to be the founder of the Harbringers.

It doesn't matter if Glory is travelling with her if that's what it takes to get the EC-1101

[Ketchup]

It doesn't matter if Glory is travelling with her if that's what it takes to get the EC-1101

I don't remember anything pointing to her wanting EC-1101.

[Sindri]

Simply put, I cannot find anything wrong with Dawn. Quite a few peculiarities, but no real problems.

There is nopony in the Hoof without real problems.

Therefore, we have not yet seen the real Dawn. And anypony who hides herself that well almost certainly has something big to hide. Combine that with the fact that every other member of the old party has gone on to a major leadership position in one of the primary factions of the Hoof, and the fact that she fits what little description we have for the mysterious leader of the remaining primary faction, and it seems likely.

Not saying that I believe it, but it's a definite possibility that we need to account for until we have more information.

[Kippershy]

It doesn't matter if Glory is travelling with her if that's what it takes to get the EC-1101

I don't remember anything pointing to her wanting EC-1101.

Just because she never said it.
Harbringers want EC-1101 to open the core.
If she's their leader, she therefore wants EC-1101.

[Downloaded Skill]

I learned about FoE the same way I learned about Pony and EQD: Tv Tropes. I seriously wouldn't have started reading / watching a lot of things if it wasn't for Tv Tropes, it really is a gateway drug.

As for Dawn I have already made my opinions known, I don't trust her and she probably does have some connections to the Harbingers and by extension the Enclave. I don't think she is the leader though, I'd more imagine a scout and then prophet when things are favorable. "Dawn" is a pretty meaningful name. I'd imagine her something like a Fumentari (sic) from New Vegas, just not with the Legion connections.

[Ketchup]

Dawn is holding something back which will likely result in some crazy adventure involving shooting things, but I just don't see how any information we have of her aside from pegasushood points to her being the Harbingers' leader.
Anyone know if the gender was given for the leader?

[Stringtheory]

Dawn is holding something back which will likely result in some crazy adventure involving shooting things, but I just don't see how any information we have of her aside from pegasushood points to her being the Harbingers' leader.
Anyone know if the gender was given for the leader?

Triage glowered. “Aside from them poaching members of my staff, no. They’ve got their own sources for everything; guns, food, potions. And they’ve been getting more and more belligerent. For all that pegasus prophet goes on about a grand new future and a glorious new world, the rest of them have a simpler message: join them or else.” Triage gave a mirthless grin. “Even you can figure that one out.”

no gender given for the leader though the philosophy of the prophet and dawn kinda line up

For all that pegasus prophet goes on about a grand new future and a glorious new world

I paused, then asked softly, “Where have you been?”
Dawn just smiled and turned her face towards the west. “A little bit of everywhere. Manehattan. Fillydelphia. Stalliongrad. Las Pegasus. I even tried to find what had become of the griffins, dragons, and zebras. I looked everywhere I could for some sign of hope for the world.”
“Did you find it?” I asked curiously.
“I did,” she said with a nod of her head and a look towards the ponies working. “In the end, we’re all the same. Pony. Griffin. Zebra. Dragon. We let ourselves become divided and separated. That’s what caused the war. It’s what caused the bombs to fall. It’s what perpetuates the misery to this day. Differences as insignificant as where one was born, the stripes on one’s skin, or one’s species. It’s those differences… those separations we create… that cause all the suffering and hardship in the world. Finding peace is no more difficult than overcoming those differences.”

at least to me it sounds like dawn is saying the same thing the prophet is saying except less extreme, which makes sense given the context, but then again we don't have a sample of what the prophet is saying so we can't compare

[Downloaded Skill]

No one had so much as heard of the Harbingers 'till a week ago in-story, though.
Dawn has been about longer than that.

I'd be willing to think she's involved, maybe even a higher-up, but the leader? I just dunno... how would she of organized all of this so suddenly?
They started showing up just after BJ awakened the cyberdemon, right?
Can it really be a coincidence?

Have we speculated as to what the Cyberdemon was? I think this was from earlier on before I started lurking in the discussion. Please correct me if I'm wrong here since I haven't reread PH, which I really should, but the Cyberdemon was from the Flash Fillies building right? The Goldenblood hologram that fried nearly everything in the room and nearly tore BJ in half trying to get the EC-1011? I think it's an AI, or a person, in the core that would be tied to the Robomination from the tunnels and the laser burst that incinerated the Hightower Warden. If there was anyplace to put a master computer in Hoofington with access to all computers in the region, it would be the core. It wouldn't surprise me since with the Cyberdemon and Hightower Warden it tried to use OIA authority.

I would also wager that it, not Spike, sent the message to BJ in Goldenblood's house. Goldy doesn't seem like the person to place a computer terminal with the GoE, it could be traced and give away the location. Luna would not be pleased with that development.

[Ironmonger]

GoE?

[Stringtheory]

GoE?

Gardens of Equestria, the megaspell to remove the radiation from the soil, thereby allowing plants to grow again thus turning the wasteland green again, and therefore making it not a wasteland

[Downloaded Skill]

GoE?

Gardens of Equestria. That "World Healing Wave" machine that needs all six elements of harmony hidden in Spike's Cave. Sorry about that. At least thats what I think it was called.

*Edit*

If someone could do me a solid I need to find a way to enhance the size of my profile pic without a significant loss in quality. Most of the methods I found involved freeware which I flat out don't trust.

[Kippershy]

No one had so much as heard of the Harbingers 'till a week ago in-story, though.
Dawn has been about longer than that.

I'd be willing to think she's involved, maybe even a higher-up, but the leader? I just dunno... how would she of organized all of this so suddenly?
They started showing up just after BJ awakened the cyberdemon, right?
Can it really be a coincidence?

Have we speculated as to what the Cyberdemon was? I think this was from earlier on before I started lurking in the discussion. Please correct me if I'm wrong here since I haven't reread PH, which I really should, but the Cyberdemon was from the Flash Fillies building right? The Goldenblood hologram that fried nearly everything in the room and nearly tore BJ in half trying to get the EC-1011? I think it's an AI, or a person, in the core that would be tied to the Robomination from the tunnels and the laser burst that incinerated the Hightower Warden. If there was anyplace to put a master computer in Hoofington with access to all computers in the region, it would be the core. It wouldn't surprise me since with the Cyberdemon and Hightower Warden it tried to use OIA authority.

I would also wager that it, not Spike, sent the message to BJ in Goldenblood's house. Goldy doesn't seem like the person to place a computer terminal with the GoE, it could be traced and give away the location. Luna would not be pleased with that development.

They encountered it in the tunnels prior to the flash industries, which is where Glory lost her wing which was why when Flash industries fell down, and Glory with it, it was actually a risk to her life.

but yes. Cyberdemon was involved in flash.

[Stringtheory]

GoE?

Gardens of Equestria. That "World Healing Wave" machine that needs all six elements of harmony hidden in Spike's Cave. Sorry about that. At least thats what I think it was called.
*Edit*

If someone could do me a solid I need to find a way to enhance the size of my profile pic without a significant loss in quality. Most of the methods I found involved freeware which I flat out don't trust.

it only was supposed to heal Equestria, if you read the ten years late chapter of FO:E it says ghouls have to travel a long way to get radiation and therefore stay healthy

why do you want your pic to be larger anyway? do you have size envy?

[Ironmonger]

Thanks for the elaboration. Also It would be interesting to see an FoE fic in the zebra lands.

[Downloaded Skill]

GoE?

Gardens of Equestria. That "World Healing Wave" machine that needs all six elements of harmony hidden in Spike's Cave. Sorry about that. At least thats what I think it was called.
*Edit*

If someone could do me a solid I need to find a way to enhance the size of my profile pic without a significant loss in quality. Most of the methods I found involved freeware which I flat out don't trust.

it only was supposed to heal Equestria, if you read the ten years late chapter of FO:E it says ghouls have to travel a long way to get radiation and therefore stay healthy

why do you want your pic to be larger anyway? do you have size envy?

Its a very... compact profile pic. I totally don't mind that Sindri has a much larger profile picture.

In truth I need it to be a bit bigger to use as a steam profile pic.

[Kippershy]

edit: not perfect but until my friend comes online who has the larger version of this pic, can't really do any better.

[Downloaded Skill]

edit: not perfect but until my friend comes online who has the larger version of this pic, can't really do any better.

I have all the time in the world Kipper just please keep me posted.

[Stringtheory]

Thanks for the elaboration. Also It would be interesting to see an FoE fic in the zebra lands.

there actually is one: Fallout Equestria: New Roam, it's...not bad, I quit it a couple chapters ago when the author put in an explicit rape scene just because he wanted to show how evil the rapists were (it was female-on-male so it's kinda alright), I tried talking him out of it, but didn't manage to, so I quit,
it's a bit on the illogical/silly side, because the main hostile faction has access to seemingly unlimited pre-war tech, and apparently has the logistical support to sustain a huge army, yet tries to be grimdark and actually kinda succeeds in that respect

[Kippershy]

Will do. I'm damn sure Laura will have the file still as she used that set quite a lot back when she used to post (not here. elsewhere.)

...so yeah, as long as she hasn't deleted all her pictures which is highly doubtful since I know she's currently using LMR for her posts elsewhere (which was her other thing.) then she'll have it.

...plus she owes me quite a few blowjobs for buying her train simulator 2013 out of the blue, so a single picture ain't nothing.

[Downloaded Skill]

As far as we can tell, the only person looking for EC-1101 prior to the cyberdemon's awakening was Sanguine. He needed it to get into his project chimera files so that he could make a deal with Red Eye.
I just have a hard time believing Dawn organized the harbingers and they were just waiting for the cyberdemon to awaken to head out and find EC-1101. No one, anywhere, heard of them before then.
Plus, every single last one of them is untrained. They were not preparing for this hunt. It seriously seems like this was all thrown together spur of the moment. It's very, very disorganized.

I gotta think Dawn, being one of those legendary heroes, would be doing better than this... especially all her sending of these untrained ponies to be massacred by the legendary Security.

I could believe she decided to go and try to get EC-1101 personally, or at least just delay the wanton loss of life, but I don't think she's running this show. If anything, that's the big difference between her organization and those of her past friends'. Theirs is sustainable and well-organized. Hers is just... not.

Yeah I honestly don't think Dawn is a leader, but more a prophet / scout like the New Vegas Fumentari (sic). However I don't think the Harbingers will be so disorganized in their next appearances. I think Steel Rain might be training them since I'm assuming he survive the encounter at Golden's house. He did express a desire to organize them before the fight started.

[Kippershy]

Thanks for the elaboration. Also It would be interesting to see an FoE fic in the zebra lands.

there actually is one: Fallout Equestria: New Roam, it's...not bad, I quit it a couple chapters ago when the author put in an explicit rape scene just because he wanted to show how evil the rapists were (it was female-on-male so it's kinda alright), I tried talking him out of it, but didn't manage to, so I quit,
it's a bit on the illogical/silly side, because the main hostile faction has access to seemingly unlimited pre-war tech, and apparently has the logistical support to sustain a huge army, yet tries to be grimdark and actually kinda succeeds in that respect

Yet you didn't complain when I added a feral ghoul raping a child.

WHAT HAS THE WORLD COME TO.

[IncoherentOrange]

New Roam is... rated teen on FiMFiction.

...The world has come to mixing ponies with everything, that's what. I guess rape is part of the 'Fallout Package' of content. Plays a little role in every game I've played, at least.

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