Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Somber]

We'll hopefully be editing on april 11th... if I can get my thumb out of my butt and write.

[O. Hinds]

Ah, lovely; I'll go ahead and schedule that.

[Icy Shake]

But the view earlier had seemed unobstructed, and seemed to imply that the Hoof mountain was higher than any of the buildings in the Core

Oh?  I'll go find that...
...Hm.  I'm concerned that you may have found an inconsistency.  The description I remembered and found in Chapter five explicitly said "the buildings within the Core rose higher and higher until the tops disappeared into the cloud layer" (going on to say that it's not all the buildings, but still, seems like a majority).  What description are you referring to?

Here.:

Looking back more carefully, I was making assumptions that may have been incorrect about the relative sizes of the Hoof, the tower on it, and the other buildings. Also, from the "atop . . . atop . . . on" I think I'd interpreted that last to mean lights on the roofs of the buildings, not just on their surfaces, meaning that many ended below the clouds. (On which note, I was extrapolating from Manehattan, where it seemed not even the highest buildings reached the cloud curtain. And of course I was missing that the cloud cover isn't remarkable, so if buildings did reach it it wouldn't necessarily be mentioned.) There was rain at the time, but at least locally it was just a drizzle, so probably not much in terms of limiting visibility, especially given the fine view of things past the island.

...Oh dear.  You know, it only just occurred to me, reading your commentary, that the whole thing about the pilgrims dying to escape suffering is rather darker in hindsight... for, after all, consider where they're dying and what generally happens to the souls of those who die in Hoofington...

To paraphrase someone writing on a different topic: Hoofington is not only worse than you imagine even after taking account of the fact that it is worse than you imagine, it is worse than you can conceivably imagine.

Mind, there's been a trend of things turning out longer than Somber thought they'd be, but we're hoping to have the story done by EFNW.

Btw, there's some minor significance to this: the whole writing team's gonna be attending Everfree Northwest. Somber's even gotten one of those guest passes and will be on a panel with other writers.

I'll try and make sure this is in the authors/editors notes at the end of the next chapter.

Never been able to make it to a con so far. Think I'll regret missing this one more than most. Hope the panel goes well and everyone has a good time.

[O. Hinds]

Looking back more carefully, I was making assumptions that may have been incorrect about the relative sizes of the Hoof, the tower on it, and the other buildings. Also, from the "atop . . . atop . . . on" I think I'd interpreted that last to mean lights on the roofs of the buildings, not just on their surfaces, meaning that many ended below the clouds. (On which note, I was extrapolating from Manehattan, where it seemed not even the highest buildings reached the cloud curtain. And of course I was missing that the cloud cover isn't remarkable, so if buildings did reach it it wouldn't necessarily be mentioned.) There was rain at the time, but at least locally it was just a drizzle, so probably not much in terms of limiting visibility, especially given the fine view of things past the island.

Ah, okay; thanks.

Never been able to make it to a con so far. Think I'll regret missing this one more than most. Hope the panel goes well and everyone has a good time.

Thanks. Sorry about you not being able to make it. I've never been to one before either, though; I expect it to be an interesting experience.

[SilentCarto]

[Pinkie] looked right into Vanity’s eyes.  “And you keep thinking you’re a murderer and scared you’re going to turn into a monster.  And you are!”
...
But when my friend read it, he asked me whether Pinkie was actually talking to Blackjack like he knows she did to Littlepip.  ...That kinda staggered me, because it's just three chapters later that Blackjack returns to 99.

Oh, that's a fantastic catch! You're right, I'd assumed Pinkie's comment was aimed at Vanity, which is odd in hindsight, because he didn't. But if you read it as a nonsequitur instead, that makes perfect sense! Thanks!

...Oh dear. You know, it only just occurred to me, reading your commentary, that the whole thing about the pilgrims dying to escape suffering is rather darker in hindsight... for, after all, consider where they're dying and what generally happens to the souls of those who die in Hoofington...

And here I thought I was going to sleep tonight. Silly me.

[Icy Shake]

[Pinkie] looked right into Vanity’s eyes.  “And you keep thinking you’re a murderer and scared you’re going to turn into a monster.  And you are!”
...
But when my friend read it, he asked me whether Pinkie was actually talking to Blackjack like he knows she did to Littlepip.  ...That kinda staggered me, because it's just three chapters later that Blackjack returns to 99.

Oh, that's a fantastic catch! You're right, I'd assumed Pinkie's comment was aimed at Vanity, which is odd in hindsight, because he didn't. But if you read it as a nonsequitur instead, that makes perfect sense! Thanks!

It's one of the many things that can really only be seen, at least with confidence, on a subsequent read-through. Even a few chapters later, with Vanity's suicide note, there's plenty of room for him to have been a monster in between. And in fact, I do think there was some truth to it as applied to Vanity, even if for him more than most of the rest of the Marauders, his (that we saw) was a monstrousness of circumstances, where he didn't see any way but to do something terrible. He clearly wasn't comfortable with the filleting of Jetstream's memories, but if not him, it would have been someone else, someone who may have done yet greater harm. Or she may have simply killed herself.

But yes, it's the sort of thing that seems to come up a lot, if not necessarily in such discrete pieces. For the last year or more, I've regularly seen major parallels and connections between newly published chapters and those I'd read the previous week or two, or which I would read soon thereafter. It's possible that my timing was repeatedly fortuitous, or that it just happens that chapters a gradually diminishing distance apart were tied together more so than in general, but I think Occam's razor suggests that sort of thing exists at many different lags, many of which I missed because memory is finite and fading.

[O. Hinds]

And here I thought I was going to sleep tonight. Silly me.

Sorry. :D

[RoboRed]

So, a couple things I keep forgetting to post about since the last chapter release.

1) You do realize, Somber, that you're going to have to edit out those lyrics before you post PH on FIMfic, right? It's a damn shame, especially with the impact it had at the end. But, that's FIMfic's bullshit rules for ya'...

2) Discussion-wise, I've been thinking about Blackjack's current status, with her alicornification and everything. And I can't help but get the feeling that she's not going to be around by the end of this story. I don't have much actual basis for it, just mostly a sort of feeling.

[Icy Shake]

Oh, meant to bring this up at some point, but now's as good of a time as any: I believe the same restriction applies to the version of "Sixteen Tons" from chapter 47, which is not in the public domain and almost certainly didn't have enough changes made to qualify for an exception.

[O. Hinds]

This issue has been raised in the team already, though I'm not sure what Somber's planning to do about it (thanks anyway, though, both of you).  It's another reason why the Gdocs version is to remain the base one, though, with the FIMFiction version a port.

[JadedPony]

Anyone else feel that what happened in the last chapter was crossing a line?

Spoilers from 74:

If something isn't done to fix this glaring problem, I'm going to stop reading I'm going to stop recommending the work to others. This has just gone off the rails.

[O. Hinds]

...I am afraid that I am having difficulty seeing from your point of view here; it is clearly rather different than mine. Sorry.

[Icy Shake]

Anyone else feel that what happened in the last chapter was crossing a line?

Spoilers from 74:

If something isn't done to fix this glaring problem, I'm going to stop reading I'm going to stop recommending the work to others. This has just gone off the rails.

You're certainly free to feel that way, and to react however you like. But that's not how I felt about it.

[SilentCarto]

Anyone else feel that what happened in the last chapter was crossing a line?

Spoilers from 74:

If something isn't done to fix this glaring problem, I'm going to stop reading I'm going to stop recommending the work to others. This has just gone off the rails.

No. No I don't.

P-21's death has been telegraphed since launch. They had a long discussion about what to do with Scotch should P-21 not return. As for its pointlessness, I felt this was akin to Miles Dyson's death in Terminator 2 -- mortally wounded and holding off the explosion until all his friends could get away.

You're way off base on the "mary sue alicorn" thing. This has always been leading up to a one-on-one against Amadi and/or the Eater of Souls; the prophecy didn't speak about "The Maiden of the Stars and her friends".

[Icy Shake]

I'll add a couple of points. For Blackjack's emotional response, if anything it was stronger than we saw in 72 to Glory's death, especially after scaling for the context. For most of the time after he was mortally wounded, she was able to (had to) substitute immediate action, or at least focus, on doing things to get out. That the element in which Blackjack thrives, and also one of her biggest ways of avoiding dealing with her emotions and more personal problems. There may well be more on the ride home, when there isn't as much to immediately occupy her time.

"The story has just devolved into a Marry Sue wish fulfillment adventure where Somber kills off all the father figures in his character's life, all her friends . . . "
That isn't what "wish fulfillment" means, unless you think the general audience has some pretty dark wishes. And I don't exactly give good odds on Blackjack staying an alicorn princess for too long.

Beyond SC's point about the prophesied one-on-one, there are multiple types of working together. One of the more surface level ones that still applies is the war in Hoofington, which relies on friends and allies Blackjack has made over her adventures to try to make sure that after the Legate and the Eater are through, there's something still worth having in Hoofington. Dig a little deeper, and there's also the fact that Blackjack wouldn't be who and what she needed to be without her friends, their support, and what they'd been through together. They helped make her, but right now, they're in a position where there are some things only she can do. That's something with precedents in MLP:FiM, PH (see, for instance, Thunderhead, where, again, a lot of other people were working in the background to salvage the situation), and FoE (say, the Cathedral).

[FeatherDust]

In light of the new episodes, all I can say is --Called it much, Somber?

Spoiler:

[Icy Shake]

Umm . . . could you spoiler-tag things from new episodes that you post the same day, please?

[O. Hinds]

Yes, please; there are already enough things I had to avert my eyes from until I'd see the episodes.

[FeatherDust]

I didn't say anything that isn't in the episode title.

[O. Hinds]

Different people have different spoiler acceptability thresholds.

Spoiler:

[RoboRed]

found on EQD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtDSw-eppBg

[O. Hinds]

Neat.

[ILM126]

OMG, guess what I-

Damn... RoboRed, I was about to share the link.... ^^"

[JadedPony]

This has always been leading up to a one-on-one against Amadi and/or the Eater of Souls; the prophecy didn't speak about "The Maiden of the Stars and her friends".

Yes, and everything she is suppose to have learned from ALL of history, from EVERY battle, from every event in her life has taught her that one pony, no matter how powerful, can't solve the world's problems alone. How many time does she need to learn the same lesson? Fluttershy gave the enemies megaspells because she wanted to end the war on her own, Twilight created Alicorns to win the war on her own, Goldenblood created a machine to save the world by blowing it up to save the world on his own, Pinkie created a surveillance state to win the war on her own, Applejack made suits of armor to turn soldiers into one-pony-tanks because she thought her solution would win the war on it's own. None of it worked!

Big Daddy and his group all broke up and did their own things because they let their friendship fall apart and look at what that did! The only places in The Hoof where ponies are thriving is in the places where they are working together in friendship. The invervation is less in those places because the passive harmony created there is enough to drown out the scream of The Eater's note.

Like, seriously, if Blackjack doesn't get this by now, she deserves to lose everything.

[decumos]

She's not solving ALL the problems by defeating Amadi. And she definitely cannot win the whole war alone, and she's not trying to do that. She united numerous factions for that, didn't she?
However, one pony is quite capable to just kill another pony, or zebra, in this case.
Although, I see your point. And I doubt she will engage Amadi without others support.

[Exodus Hero]

Anyone else feel that what happened in the last chapter was crossing a line?

Spoilers from 74:

If something isn't done to fix this glaring problem, I'm going to stop reading I'm going to stop recommending the work to others. This has just gone off the rails.

I have to disagree with you here.

Spoiler:

[FeatherDust]

Yes, and everything she is suppose to have learned from ALL of history, from EVERY battle, from every event in her life has taught her that one pony, no matter how powerful, can't solve the world's problems alone. How many time does she need to learn the same lesson?
...
Like, seriously, if Blackjack doesn't get this by now, she deserves to lose everything.

Seems to me she's shedding friends left and right, not by intent, but because they each have something they have to do. Her friends aren't going to help her win that last fight. They're opening the way for Blackjack to arrive at the last fight.

[O. Hinds]

What FeatherDust said, basically. Though I'll also point out that they are helping her to win that fight, indirectly, since she can't win if she can't even show up to it.

[SilentCarto]

Yes, and everything she is suppose to have learned from ALL of history, from EVERY battle, from every event in her life has taught her that one pony, no matter how powerful, can't solve the world's problems alone.

Sometimes, only one person can be the tip of the spear. That doesn't mean that all the people behind them are worthless or unimportant. Think of Return of the Jedi, where only Luke gets to duel Vader and the Emperor. Han, Leia, Chewie, the droids, and Lando all still have important jobs to do. How many times have you seen a story where the hero's allies tell him, "We'll handle this, you go after the bad guy!" If there's only one person in the party who can do a task, it only demonstrates how the group is made stronger by its members' diverse skills and qualities. BJ's friends and allies may not stand shoulder-to-shoulder with her in the final fight, but that doesn't detract from their contributions, and it certainly doesn't mean it's all about BJ doing it on her own!

[Icy Shake]

This has always been leading up to a one-on-one against Amadi and/or the Eater of Souls; the prophecy didn't speak about "The Maiden of the Stars and her friends".

Yes, and everything she is suppose to have learned from ALL of history, from EVERY battle, from every event in her life has taught her that one pony, no matter how powerful, can't solve the world's problems alone. How many time does she need to learn the same lesson? Fluttershy gave the enemies megaspells because she wanted to end the war on her own, Twilight created Alicorns to win the war on her own, Goldenblood created a machine to save the world by blowing it up to save the world on his own, Pinkie created a surveillance state to win the war on her own, Applejack made suits of armor to turn soldiers into one-pony-tanks because she thought her solution would win the war on it's own. None of it worked!

Big Daddy and his group all broke up and did their own things because they let their friendship fall apart and look at what that did! The only places in The Hoof where ponies are thriving is in the places where they are working together in friendship. The invervation is less in those places because the passive harmony created there is enough to drown out the scream of The Eater's note.

Like, seriously, if Blackjack doesn't get this by now, she deserves to lose everything.

Sorry, but I just feel that I need to reiterate this:

Beyond SC's point about the prophesied one-on-one, there are multiple types of working together. One of the more surface level ones that still applies is the war in Hoofington, which relies on friends and allies Blackjack has made over her adventures to try to make sure that after the Legate and the Eater are through, there's something still worth having in Hoofington. Dig a little deeper, and there's also the fact that Blackjack wouldn't be who and what she needed to be without her friends, their support, and what they'd been through together. They helped make her, but right now, they're in a position where there are some things only she can do. That's something with precedents in MLP:FiM, PH (see, for instance, Thunderhead, where, again, a lot of other people were working in the background to salvage the situation), and FoE (say, the Cathedral).

On a heavier note, Chapter 69 can really suck you in if you start thinking about the different facets of Blackjack/Glory/P-21 and how things got built up, how they might have gone differently. What mistakes were made. Frankly, it's an unpleasant situation which may all the same have been for the best, but I have a lot of sympathy for P-21's position that she could have waited to break it off until after the battle and moon operation are over. And frankly "there was no good time, and you have a baby now!" doesn't exactly cut it for me, since the whole point is no, they'll have a baby in a few months, and only if they get through this alive and recover Blackjack's old body. I know it's not fair, but none of it was fair to anyone, and that at least seems more expedient. If we can't have fair, can't we at least have that?

Chapter Sixty Nine Running Thoughts:

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