Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Vinylshadow]

If Blackjack went back for Glory, Glory would have screamed at her for being an idiot

Blah blah blah, letting personal feelings cloud your judgement, that kind of thing

Then they'd both die and the Wasteland would fall to the Brood

[JadedPony]

Besides, it won't matter. They will still be together. There will be a happy ending for everyone. The Crusaders especially are going to be blown away when #TOMORROW happens. It's going to be a little awkward for P-21 though and Rampage is going to have a LOT of apologizing to do.

[pokeperson1000]

Okay, I'm just going to speculate something here. please just hear me out, then feel free to shoot me down after you are done.

It is never outright proven that soul jars can be destroyed through a balefire bomb. In Chapter 39 on the original FoE, it was stated that "there was no way I could know for sure if the black book had been destroyed. But if it was not, then it was either buried under rubble or fused into a crater of glass."


Ever since Littlepip killed the Goddess in the original FoE, it was always assumed that balefire bombs could destroy soul jars, but it was never outright proven.


Even in PH, as far as i can tell, characters just assume that a balefire bomb would be enough to destroy a soul jar.


So what if the Legate knew this? what if the legate also knew about everyone's assumptions that balefire is enough to destroy a soul jar? and he knew that everyone would assume him to be dead.


and if the legate knows from rampage how a bearer of a phoenix talisman soul jar retains the previous souls, the stronger of which can have their personalities/souls take control of the current host.


so what if the legate, knowing that his soul jar could survive the balefire bomb, grabs glory, cuts them both open, inserts his own cursed talisman into her body, and has glory survive ( PLEASE STAY WITH ME AS I FINISH)

Glory supposedly comes back, and blackjack is temporarily overjoyed, before the legate's soul attempts to take over glory, catching blackjack off guard, and now blackjack is stuck trying to get rid of the legate, who now resides inside glory as a figurative ticking time bomb.

She will have to find a way to kill the legate, and if she does, she will be risking and possibly losing glory's life in the process, only this time, if glory falls, blackjack might angst about it for the rest of her life believing that she had caused glory to die.

And Rampage will be pestering blackjack about killing her after having discovered how to kill someone with a phoenix talisman.

Okay, now i'm done, thanks for reading all the way through, and if you think it is stupid, feel free to shoot me and my random speculation down. thank you.

[O. Hinds]

...Huh. I don't think Vitiosus is creative enough to think of that, but it could be a good plan (for him, that is, obviously not for Glory and Blackjack).

[JadedPony]

The plan has two flaws: He would have to give up being a zebra and you know how those pony are about their racial pride. Secondly, he wouldn't be able to guarantee he would have dominance over the personality of the host any time soon. He has too much to lose to try that right now.

Don't worry though, Glory will have her #tomorrow. Unless Sombre totally misses the giant, world shaking opportunity that is ripe for the using, there is going to be a really great day for a lot of ponies. The crusaders are going to be very, very busy.

[Rayndalf]

The plan has two flaws: He would have to give up being a zebra and you know how those pony are about their racial pride. Secondly, he wouldn't be able to guarantee he would have dominance over the personality of the host any time soon. He has too much to lose to try that right now.

Don't worry though, Glory will have her #tomorrow. Unless Sombre totally misses the giant, world shaking opportunity that is ripe for the using, there is going to be a really great day for a lot of ponies. The crusaders are going to be very, very busy.

What is this world shaking opportunity? 

Glory barely surviving the impact like Lil'Pip, because;

Up close, it was clear that Luna Space Center had been hit by some heavy firepower in the past.  The top was cratered, and in some places the blast had overwhelmed the fortification and torn great holes through to lower levels.  This building was just as tough as Maripony, designed to take a beating from within and without, but parts of it were every bit as ruined as the rest of the Wasteland.  Glory had wafted us towards a large intact section of roof rather than a hole filled with rubble and jagged rebar, for which I was grateful.  This was going to be hard enough already, especially if I couldn’t teleport.

and is then rescued by teleportation (bonus points if Psalm), and later gets a new body?

[Epsilon]

You're forgetting that both of the balefire events at Maripony were subterranean detonations. Most of the damage to the facility (By the first detonation) was caused by the resulting sinkhole and earthquakes. Plus the room that both Littlepip and Twilight used was a fortified shelter, unlike the control room Glory was in (That had a massive window overlooking the launch pads - a major structural weakness in itself).

Here we're talking about a balefire bomb being detonated right on top of the space center. Between the pressure wake and the extreme heat at ground zero, it's safe to say that nothing would be left standing, let alone survive.

[Rayndalf]

Eh... I was using my own half-baked theory as an example.
And yes, the location of the detonation is quite significant.
The space center is simultaneously built as well as Maripony, and on the verge of collapse, (with any viable defense mechanisms likely to be offline)  
No most signs point to Glory's death, unless the balefire bomb was actually a healing megaspell. 
Only zebra sabotage Somber can save her now.

[JadedPony]

Dead is a good place for Glory right now. Think of it like having a vacation until #tomorrow. She can say hello to Priest and that kid that got ripped apart by the zombies, Rose, Thorn, that filly that got squished in the mud by that collapsing building, there will be lots of ponies to talk to as she circles the eater waiting for #tomorrow to come.

[Icy Shake]

I really have my doubts Glory's ever coming back. It would sap the meaning from her apparent sacrifice, and would moreover be inconsistent with the way coming back to life has worked so far, from a thematic standpoint: Blackjack didn't come back in "Birthday" as some kind of happy ending or reward—I think the everafter was her reward, one which she deferred in order to sacrifice further for the sake of her friends, her world, and probably in part because no matter how much good she did, she hadn't made up for the wrongs she'd committed. Sure, there are some other options, like the Legate/talisman one, which don't have that as much of that problem, but at the same time we're getting to the point where things are getting resolved a lot faster than new threads are being created and left hanging. As for her becoming a ghoul? It'd be an adjustment, yeah, but we've seen plenty of perfectly happy ghouls living basically normal lives. Not exactly an impact like her being dead. Maybe if she were feral, but what would the point of that be except to wring a last moment of pathos out of her, and in a way likely to have been done better with Sanguine? Anyway, I've certainly been wrong before, including on the issue of Glory's death. But right now, I think it would be better for the story for her to be and stay dead. It's not how you'd get the most feel-good ending, but I think PH can aim for more than that, and that an almost pain-free climax (and then an Afterward/Epilogue to remove much of the pain and most of the purpose behind the pain there was!) was something that harmed FoE greatly. For more on the point, though, I'll refer to the man himself, talking about the process of writing 71:

Because I hate easy endings.

It goes back to the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.  When I first read the hobbit at the tender age of 'too long ago to remember' I got to the end and was blown away that so many dwarves and Thorin had died.  It really nailed me.  Then we get at the end of LotR and I had to go and reread it.  Wait.  The guy that killed off half the dwarven party had only killed ONE character, and that was way back at the beginning book, in the majorly epic follow up?  Where were the other deaths.  Don't get me wrong, I love them all, but I was expecting at least one or two other characters to bite it.  Maybe Legolas and Pippin.  By the end of the story they were largely irrelevant characters.  Or maybe Aragorn.  Or Gandalf for real this time against Sauron in hand to hand combat with his ghostly armored shell.  Something!  Even Frodo or Samwise dying.  In an odd reversal, the ending of the hobbit seemed more impacting and realistic than that of the Lord of the Rings.

It's the same reason that I love and hate the ending of Deathly Hollows.  I didn't want Tonks and Sirius to die, but I wanted someone to.  I wanted the battle of Hogwarts to matter.  Dobby's sacrifice (and I hated the elf until that moment, fyi) made the story far more impacting.  The loss of Fred (or was it George) helped seal the deal.  Really, I expected Hermoine to die.  Or even Harry, for real.  And I would have been okay with that.

Why?  Because heroism has a price.

Chapter Sixty Running Thoughts:

Chapter Sixty Overall Thoughts:

Chapter Sixty Editing:

Other Editing:

[Epsilon]

I think you've basically hit the nail on the head there, Icy. I'd really hate for the weight Glory's sacrifice to basically amount to nothing by having her come back with a "gotcha!" turnabout.

...That said, I really do hope the rest of the cast makes it through this. After all they've been through, I feel as though they deserve something of a happy ending. I know it's probably wishful thinking, but I really want to see Blackjack and P-21 get to raise a family together.

[Guest]

I really have my doubts Glory's ever coming back. It would sap the meaning from her apparent sacrifice, and would moreover be inconsistent with the way coming back to life has worked so far, from a thematic standpoint: Blackjack didn't come back in "Birthday" as some kind of happy ending or reward—

If you're referring to her bacoming a cyberpony as being the cost, I'd like you to consider where she is now. (Or should I say last chapter? I haven't gotten around to reading this one so as far as I know BJ is a ghoul) She's got a body that is pretty much the same as the old one. She can't have kids, sure, but where would she have ever thought she could have had a big family?

Now you could argue the loss of her previous body had a cost, with the foal being inside of it, but to me it seems artificial. The child based on what I've seen only exists to give that loss meaning. I feel like you could name the twins or however many there are as EC1102 and EC1103 (sorry I forgot where the dashes went) and that'd be accurate to their role.

Not that you don't have a point. Snips was a skeleton, Horse was Skinless (I think. I don't remember too well.) and sanguine was a mindless ghoul. But what loss came from BJ's death? In fact she's gained if you consider where she's come from and you assume she has twins and one is male.

[O. Hinds]

@Icy Shake:
Ah, thank you very much as always.

Griping about Glitchy Software:

should that be "either now or ever"? (I'm not really as familiar with both/and construction)

I think that either one would work here but that they'd mean slightly different things.

apostrophe for "Yous"?

I have no idea, nor do I know where in the word I'd put it. As it's supposed to be imperfect, though, I'm going to assume that the current version is fine (this also goes for the other "yous" you pointed out).

So, what's the ponification of "Wodehouse"? "Wodehorse"?

:D

[pokeperson1000]

Last, she has been considering adoption. if you paid attention during the party.

[SilentCarto]

Blackjack didn't come back in "Birthday" as some kind of happy ending or reward—I think the everafter was her reward, one which she deferred in order to sacrifice further for the sake of her friends, her world, and probably in part because no matter how much good she did, she hadn't made up for the wrongs she'd committed.

Beautifully put. I think it's deliberate that we got a hint halfway through the story that being dead isn't so bad. Unless you get caught by a ring, that is. It's easy to forget sometimes that Cogs and Amadi are just pawns; that the real threat is the Eater of Souls, and it's not one you can just shoot in the head. This is ultimately a spiritual battle that transcends life and death, and they're fighting not just for life to go on tomorrow, but for the very shape of the everafter.

And, well, Glory's "tomorrow" could still happen if BJ doesn't make it another 24 hours. But, hey... that wouldn't be so very terrible.

[SilentCarto]

So, what's the ponification of "Wodehouse"? "Wodehorse"?

P.G. Roadhouse, maybe?

[Vinylshadow]

Wodehouse

Wodehorse...

Wood Horse

Trojan, maybe?

[Guest]

Last, she has been considering adoption. if you paid attention during the party.

Okay. Your point would be what?

That'll be great by the way, because I don't see any intention in BJ of ever slowing down. At the party she's already looking towards the next problem we saw that with the burner. So here's the visual I want you to imagine BJ takes buckshot from one side while a swaddle with several foals inside is hanging from the other. In my opinion being security and being a mother are mutually exclusive.

[CD]

@Icy Shake: Speaking of Lord of the Rings, I don't know if you've ever seen Renegade Cut, but the guy did an episode on the meaning of killing off characters, only to resurrect them immediately after with Gandalf as the example. Fallout is not a series that lets you win easily. Unless you have a walkthrough guide, you are going to fail at lifting the wasteland up. And even when you do, there is a price, and the knowledge that War Never Changes. Sunshine and Rainbows is my only major complaint with the original Fallout Equestria.

I know this is exceptionally cruel to the pony herself, but I don't think Blackjack should get the perfect ending wherein Glory survives. The stakes had been raised, our Gandalf has died, Blackjack is cheated out of that Tomorrow she wished for. I can't know what Somber has decided for Glory, and the divine plan cannot be stopped, but other than giving Blackjack a faint glimmer of hope only to snuff it out right in front of her, it would feel cheap to have Glory be relatively fine (we seem to be in disagreement on pathos however).

Most Fallout characters have won at a price. Even Littlepip. I predict Blackjack will have to pay it as well.

[Caoimhe]

I am in the first thirds of Heroes and all I can think about is how much Hired Gun would hate Blackjack over any other FoE protags (which she would probably just find terribly annoying). Mind I'm still early into this story but that's my takeaway so far (other than a possible connection over lust for heavy weapons).

[Rayndalf]

When Blackjack died (either the first or the second time, leaning towards the second, but possibly both the first and second times(?)) her soul circled the eater, and only returned because she was resuscitated. 
Both Glory's body and her soul would need to be recovered if Glory is to "survive" (without Glory's brain, you would be left with a blank that would be identical to Glory should it have the same experiences).

Unless if by #tomorrow you just mean her soul passes on

Hotel wifi seems spotty at best, as this is my third attempt to send this message

[SilentCarto]

When Blackjack died (either the first or the second time, leaning towards the second, but possibly both the first and second times(?)) her soul circled the eater, and only returned because she was resuscitated.

Only the second time. The first time, she joined the soul of her mother in (or on the edge of) the everafter and got the backstory of the Eater of Souls. It was definitely implied that while she was able to return thanks to Glory's efforts, it was her choice whether to go back or to stay.

The second time, she got caught by a ring and tortured in the Tokomare, and discovered Luna's soul in the middle. That time she was forceably yanked back by Snails' anchor spell, not that she'd have wanted to stay if given the choice. (The third time, her soul wasn't at large, just debrainified.)

[Icy Shake]

I really have my doubts Glory's ever coming back. It would sap the meaning from her apparent sacrifice, and would moreover be inconsistent with the way coming back to life has worked so far, from a thematic standpoint: Blackjack didn't come back in "Birthday" as some kind of happy ending or reward—

If you're referring to her bacoming a cyberpony as being the cost, I'd like you to consider where she is now. (Or should I say last chapter? I haven't gotten around to reading this one so as far as I know BJ is a ghoul) She's got a body that is pretty much the same as the old one. She can't have kids, sure, but where would she have ever thought she could have had a big family?  

Now you could argue the loss of her previous body had a cost, with the foal being inside of it, but to me it seems artificial. The child based on what I've seen only exists to give that loss meaning. I feel like you could name the twins or however many there are as EC1102 and EC1103 (sorry I forgot where the dashes went) and that'd be accurate to their role.

Not that you don't have a point. Snips was a skeleton, Horse was Skinless (I think. I don't remember too well.) and sanguine was a mindless ghoul. But what loss came from BJ's death? In fact she's gained if you consider where she's come from and you assume she has twins and one is male.

Nope, wasn't referring to becoming a cyberpony as a cost. She didn't even know that would happen. I was saying just that Blackjack put herself through the grinder as a matter of course, and tended to take more pain from her failures than satisfaction from the good things in her life (especially to that point); let's remember, it hadn't been that long since Blackjack couldn't take the friends and loved ones she still had as a reason to keep living, needing instead the Gardens as a larger hope that she might even be able to indirectly contribute to.

I also don't think that these other examples really fit. Snips and Snails didn't die in a normal sense, but were experimenting on themselves and had soul magic to pull each other back. As far as I remember, Horse never died and came back; he was skinned and put in a pod before he could die. Sanguine was left behind in a state of semi-lucidity as long as he was by the remains of his family.

Griping about Glitchy Software:

If you're on a 64 bit machine, you might try Waterfox. For whatever reason, Google Docs is working for me it it, after having failed miserably for months in Firefox. It could be that I'm now on Windows 8.1 instead of 7, though.

Blackjack didn't come back in "Birthday" as some kind of happy ending or reward—I think the everafter was her reward, one which she deferred in order to sacrifice further for the sake of her friends, her world, and probably in part because no matter how much good she did, she hadn't made up for the wrongs she'd committed.

Beautifully put. I think it's deliberate that we got a hint halfway through the story that being dead isn't so bad. Unless you get caught by a ring, that is.

That's a good point, and one that I hadn't thought of. But yes, in addition to the world-building around the Eater and the closure with Gin Rummy, that was an important contribution of that segment.

So, what's the ponification of "Wodehouse"? "Wodehorse"?

P.G. Roadhouse, maybe?

I like that one.

I can't know what Somber has decided for Glory, and the divine plan cannot be stopped, but other than giving Blackjack a faint glimmer of hope only to snuff it out right in front of her, it would feel cheap to have Glory be relatively fine (we seem to be in disagreement on pathos however).

Could you elaborate on where we're in disagreement regarding pathos? I'm afraid I didn't quite follow.

[O. Hinds]

If you're on a 64 bit machine, you might try Waterfox. For whatever reason, Google Docs is working for me it it, after having failed miserably for months in Firefox. It could be that I'm now on Windows 8.1 instead of 7, though.

Hm, maybe. I'm running 10.6.8, though, and my research said that the OSX versions of Firefox are already 64-bit; if bit count was the problem, Waterfox probably wouldn't help.

I like that one.

Hm. I think I prefer "Wodehorse". Sorry, SilentCarto. Though part of it is that I don't know how "Roadhouse" is a horse pun; it might just be a lack of knowledge on my part.

[Guest]

@Icy
I meant death in terms of the story. It's reasonable to believe considering the situations that Sanguine and Snips were left in that the two were dead. Honestly considering the circumstances I would say they were revived more than they survived.

[Epsilon]

Hm, maybe.  I'm running 10.6.8, though, and my research said that the OSX versions of Firefox are already 64-bit; if bit count was the problem, Waterfox probably wouldn't help.

Indeed, if I recall correctly the developer doesn't actually change much of the core source code for Firefox, he just recompiles the latest stable release using 64-bit architecture. There are a few additions here and there, but they're mostly paltry benefits. The improvements are more tangible when compared to the Windows version (which is still 32-bit).

Strangely enough, I've noticed that Safari seems to run Google Docs better than other browsers (Doesn't briefly lock up like Firefox and Chrome tend to do occasionally), so I might try using that instead.

I'm not really sure why it's locking up so permanently, though. You're already running (What I think is arguably) the best version of OSX, so I wonder if it might be hardware related. If you don't mind my asking, what are your system specs?

I am in the first thirds of Heroes and all I can think about is how much Hired Gun would hate Blackjack over any other FoE protags (which she would probably just find terribly annoying). Mind I'm still early into this story but that's my takeaway so far (other than a possible connection over lust for heavy weapons).

What makes you say that?

[CD]

I can't know what Somber has decided for Glory, and the divine plan cannot be stopped, but other than giving Blackjack a faint glimmer of hope only to snuff it out right in front of her, it would feel cheap to have Glory be relatively fine (we seem to be in disagreement on pathos however).

Could you elaborate on where we're in disagreement regarding pathos? I'm afraid I didn't quite follow.

I assumed from your post you would not like a scenario in which Glory lived, only to serve as another knife in Blackjack's gut. Such as becoming a ghoul, losing her mind, and forcing Blackjack to kill her in self defence. Or perhaps have her be a hostage of the Legate whom he brutalizes whilst Blackjack is on the moon to drive home the guilt she abandoned Glory, only to execute her in a bid to utterly crush Blackjack's heart.

You know, exceedingly dark stuff that sends Blackjack back to the brink of wanting to take her own life. Something I'm okay with, but seems a little excessive to others.

[O. Hinds]

You're already running (What I think is arguably) the best version of OSX

:)
Yes, there are a variety of reasons why I've chosen to keep using outdated versions of Safari and OpenOffice instead of getting free OS "upgrades".

so I wonder if it might be hardware related

Nah, I think it's software related on Google's end.  I'm not the only one who has these problems, after all.

If you don't mind my asking, what are your system specs?

This seems like it might be turning into rather a big deal… perhaps I shouldn't have said anything.  Anyway, though, I'm afraid that I don't know which specs in particular you're asking for.  Sorry.

[Epsilon]

Oh, I was just wondering what your CPU/RAM specs are. I've just noticed that Google seems to be bloating GDocs with little regard for 'optimization' (Kind of like Apple's newest OS upgrades! ), so if you're running a Mac from before 2010 your troubles could simply be stemming from the older hardware.

But you're right, this conversation isn't for here, so I apologize. In the meantime, I'd just recommend trying Safari.

You know, exceedingly dark stuff that sends Blackjack back to the brink of wanting to take her own life.

Personally, I wonder if this might be more likely to lead to Hind's idea of sending Blackjack back to her state from Yellow River. That'd be a frightening thought.

[Vinylshadow]

That, or Blackjack checks herself into Happyhorn without telling anyone (After she removes the threat of Horizons), which leads everyone to think she's dead and then years later, she comes back

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