Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[O. Hinds]

@swicked:

The Passage in Question:

So…  Yeah, it does pretty much seem to have been Luna's influence.

[Evilgidgit]

I've been wondering by any chance the idea of Hoofington becoming an independent city of tomorrow inspired by Walt Disney wanted to do with Epcot?

[Vinylshadow]

Hoofington becomes the New Vegas Strip and asks for autonomy while the New Equestria Republic comes in and 'civilizes' the land?

or something

[Silver136]

Hoofington becomes the New Vegas Strip and asks for autonomy while the New Equestria Republic comes in and 'civilizes' the land?

or something

"Heroes" has already got the whole New Vegas motif done. The "New Caledonian Republic," Mr. New Heygas, even Mr. House as a ghoul. If PH does it that's fine, but I don't think it'll be as similar.

[Vinylshadow]

What am I doing wasting time read Viva Las Pegas then...

the PDF lacks chapter bookmarks and I keep losing my page

[Valikdu]

There's also New Pegas, which I think is of better quality than Heroes.

[Vinylshadow]

Kinda makes me wish we had a solid canon for what happens to various hot spots, like major cities and such

Apply areas from the Fallout games to specific cities

I feel like Canterlot mimics the Old World Blues DLC from New Vegas (Pink cloud?)

I'll admit I never really played any other Fallout game 

Watched my friend play Fallout 3 though

I'm a huge Super Mutant Behemoth fan, to be honest, shame they're not in New Vegas

[Dutcher]

Meatlocker=Under World
Enclave= well Enclave with places such as Navarro from Fallout 2
The Pit=Fillydelphia
There are a lot more but those are the ones that jump first in my head.
Edit:
And of course Mariposa.

[Silver136]

Kinda makes me wish we had a solid canon for what happens to various hot spots, like major cities and such

Apply areas from the Fallout games to specific cities

I feel like Canterlot mimics the Old World Blues DLC from New Vegas (Pink cloud?)

I'll admit I never really played any other Fallout game 

Watched my friend play Fallout 3 though

I'm a huge Super Mutant Behemoth fan, to be honest, shame they're not in New Vegas

I believe you're thinking of Dead Money. That's the one with the poison cloud and magical unkillable ghouls. Old World Blues had the think tank and all the science stuff.

[Vinylshadow]

Silly me, getting my DLC mixed up DX

Gyah

The Think Tank's dialogue was hilarious though

We need more deranged Pony brains in jars

[Silver136]

Who knows. Maybe Silver Stripe will make a comeback as a crazy brain in a box.

[Vinylshadow]

Just what we need

Insane Zebra Brains

[Silver136]

Just what we need

Insane Zebra Brains

"Zony"

Let's be racially tolerant here. 

[Icy Shake]

Yeah, I think that what we have here is essentially a conflict in headcanon: it looks to me like we more or less see the two sides in reverse.

Ah well.

Yeah, but there are worse things in the world. Still friends?  

Precipitating a famine to score political points? If that had been done to his own people, it would be pretty comparable to the Ukrainian genocide under Stalin. Lightening up a bit, it's bog standard (possibly even relatively weak tea) gunboat diplomacy. This sort of limited and isolated raid very often doesn't result in a war, unless, of course, those on the "receiving" (not enough scare-quotes in the world) end were looking for a war in the first place.

A famine would have happened soon if the coal had not gotten through; it was not ongoing at the time.  We do not know that the zebras would not have released the coal at the last minute to avoid such a thing.  A power failure was about a month away, and presumably the electricity would be cut before the food trains stopped running.

Also, the phrasing would appear to indicate that the gemstone embargo happened first.

I guess it's possible, but my interpretation had always been Pirates => Wonderbolts => Coal Seizure => Retaliatory Embargo => Negotiations Break Down => Coal Counter-Seizure => Zebras Declare War

Which, incidentally, seemed to be the case here.

Incidentally?  It is incidental that Equestria was eager for war?  Especially since the zebras had more or less every right to expect it to be eager to avoid war?

I was talking about the zebras.

There were two escalations following Littlehorn, as I recall: the gassing and soon after the burning of Hoofington. One possibly proportional response, one massively disproportionate. We do know that hundreds were killed, and thousands displaced. I suppose it's possible it wasn't done by the zebras, but given the pieces in play at the time it was probably either them or the Legate.

I'm still not remembering this gassing.

I think this was me either misremembering the details of the Littlehorn Massacre or taking a very broad interpretation of the responsibility for it.

Let me put it this way: if either side knows the other is willing to pull the pin of a grenade, tackle them, and keep pressed to them with the live grenade between them until it goes off, then they're better off not sticking their legs in buckets of cement and wearing an elastic band around their neck so the other can instead leave them a grenade ball gag.

…Nope, lost, sorry.  I can see that this metaphor is related, but I'm not sure how.

Basically, it's the idea that as bad of an idea preemptive unilateral disarmament is in general, it's even worse if you have reason to think the other party thinks "both of us dead" is a good end-state. Point was, although I think the premises at least one side was operating under by the end of the war were flawed, given them, neither would have made the right move by divesting themselves of megaspells. I'll even grant that the (apparent) first strike was probably the right call for at least some segment of the zebras, given their premises. However, I cannot fathom how a first strike would make sense from the viewpoint of the Equestrian Crown. If, in fact, Jetstream was part of an Equestrian or Equestrian traitor's successful(?) first strike, well, I don't follow the plan.

[O. Hinds]

Yeah, but there are worse things in the world. Still friends?

Oh, naturally. :)
Though, sad to say, there might very well be people who'd stop being friends over such a thing.

I guess it's possible, but my interpretation had always been Pirates => Wonderbolts => Coal Seizure => Retaliatory Embargo => Negotiations Break Down => Coal Counter-Seizure => Zebras Declare War

It could certainly be that, too.

I was talking about the zebras.

Ah. I pretty much completely disagree, then. Eager for war with Equestria? With the country ruled by a pair of powerful and immortal goddess-queens? Who are quite capable of freezing or baking the zebra lands at the least? And who have pretty much no history of launching offensive wars? I imagine the zebras as being shocked and terrified when word came through, only starting to relax a bit when it became clear that Equestria was carrying out a limited war instead of brining its full strength to bear.

I think this was me either misremembering the details of the Littlehorn Massacre or taking a very broad interpretation of the responsibility for it.

…I'm still confused. You said "following Littlehorn", as in occurring after it. And if you were considering the Littlehorn massacre to be a deliberate act by the zebra government, I have to say that that really doesn't make sense to me.

I have the Cloud bomb as probably (there's a slight chance that this was done by the closest equivalents my headcanon has to the Starkatteri) being smuggled by an Equestrian sympathizer who'd obtained it with great difficulty and was planning to defect with their family, offering the bomb as a gift. Then the shooting started, and either the bomb was set off by accident or the would-be defector thought "Hm, the people I was trying to betray my homeland for have just shot and killed my defenseless spouse and children. If only I had not believed pony lies… Well, there's still one weapon I have!" or something to that effect.

Basically, it's the idea that as bad of an idea preemptive unilateral disarmament is in general, it's even worse if you have reason to think the other party thinks "both of us dead" is a good end-state.

Not good, just least bad available.

Point was, although I think the premises at least one side was operating under by the end of the war were flawed, given them, neither would have made the right move by divesting themselves of megaspells. I'll even grant that the (apparent) first strike was probably the right call for at least some segment of the zebras, given their premises. However, I cannot fathom how a first strike would make sense from the viewpoint of the Equestrian Crown. If, in fact, Jetstream was part of an Equestrian or Equestrian traitor's successful(?) first strike, well, I don't follow the plan.

What I know about the Jetstream thing I can't say, and I don't think that I know enough anyway.

On a broader note, my thoughts on who made the first strike are a bit complicated. In my heacanon, the zebras set up their apocalypse plan, armed everything, and then threw the entire available mass of their conventional forces into the Final Assault, a strategic-scale suicide charge. Casualties would have been (and were) immense, but, if it had succeeded, through military victories or pure shock, the world would still be better off than it would have been after the apocalypse or an Equestrian victory. The Assault did succeed in overrunning the Equestrian lines, and, though it barely touched Equestria itself, it was still enough to spook Equestria into opening fire with Celestia One on the missile fields. And so, as per the standing orders, the big red buttons were mashed before Equestria could see to it that they weren't connected to anything important.

[Icy Shake]

I think this was me either misremembering the details of the Littlehorn Massacre or taking a very broad interpretation of the responsibility for it.

…I'm still confused.  You said "following Littlehorn", as in occurring after it.  And if you were considering the Littlehorn massacre to be a deliberate act by the zebra government, I have to say that that really doesn't make sense to me.

The "after Littlehorn" was a mistake on my part due to an increased perception of the time between the attack on the refugees and the response, due to having very recently reread the scene which ended with Psalm leaving before the agent was let loose, I think relatively sparse detail on the events otherwise, and not having read FoE in a long time, apart from isolated searches.

Oh, and I should have said, regarding the genesis of the war, "For 'zebras,' read 'zebra government as embodied in the Caesar.'"

[O. Hinds]

Ah, okay.

But why would it make sense for the zebra government to have attacked Littlehorn?

[Icy Shake]

Under my original conception, as an overblown response. You murder helpless refugees? We murder everyone involved with that, and it's not worth risking our soldiers on enemy territory that's probably going to be on high alert after that to do it in a way that spares the children.

Now, there being no gap between the two does answer one of my questions about Celestia's actions afterwards: why didn't she follow one of the three clear best options for how to deal with it, in order:
1. Take the headmistressdean into custody immediately and offer to extradite her for war crimes
2. Put her before an Equestrian military tribunal for war crimes, then execute her or imprison her for life, maybe exile her
3. Same as 2, but with civilian courts and for a few score or so counts of murder one instead of war crimes

[Icy Shake]

Yeah, but Celestia was in charge of the country at the time, and Luna wasn't even there, as she was in Canterlot when it happened. Wait . . . oops, I meant "dean," not "headmistress."

[SilentCarto]

I have the Cloud bomb as probably (there's a slight chance that this was done by the closest equivalents my headcanon has to the Starkatteri) being smuggled by an Equestrian sympathizer who'd obtained it with great difficulty and was planning to defect with their family, offering the bomb as a gift.  Then the shooting started, and either the bomb was set off by accident or the would-be defector thought "Hm, the people I was trying to betray my homeland for have just shot and killed my defenseless spouse and children.  If only I had not believed pony lies…  Well, there's still one weapon I have!" or something to that effect.

As I understand it, the latter is the case. A mist-cloaked Zebra operative was escorting his family in the convoy. When they were killed by Littlehorn's automated defenses, he used his skills to infiltrate the academy and set off something like a Pink Cloud grenade or satchel charge in revenge. (I assume the gas bomb itself was a preexisting Zebra weapon used to wipe out monster hives.) He was at that point acting as a rogue agent, but the government seems to have condoned the attack and taken the actions of the automated defenses as deliberate on the ponies' part.

[Vinylshadow]

Why did the Zebra Government attack Littlehorn?

They were sending a message

"Give us what we want or we won't hesitate to attack you in full"

[Silver136]

Why did the Zebra Government attack Littlehorn?

They were sending a message

"Give us what we want or we won't hesitate to attack you in full"

Ialways thought it was retaliation for accidentally murdering an entire group of travel ravaged refugees. I thought the zebras had sent in a cloaked task force after they found out, with orders to detonate the cloud bomb in the school

[Vinylshadow]

That works too

[SilentCarto]

Why did the Zebra Government attack Littlehorn?

That's my point -- they didn't. The attack on Littlehorn was an immediate response by a zebra agent who was already with his family in the convoy. The government was not involved.

“It was too late. The zebra convoy had assassins wearing zebra stealth cloaks…”
“They had one.” Xenith corrected. “A father whose family was killed in your school’s surprise attack.”
“They only needed one,” SteelHooves growled.

[Silver136]

Why did the Zebra Government attack Littlehorn?

That's my point -- they didn't. The attack on Littlehorn was an immediate response by a zebra agent who was already with his family in the convoy. The government was not involved.

Where did it say that? I could've sworn it said the government got pissed and decided to wipe out the school that slaughtered defenseless families.

[Dutcher]

Maybe the Legate is the one who made the attack.
Seems to me he wanted the war to escalate.

[Silver136]

Maybe the Legate is the one who made the attack.
Seems to me he wanted the war to escalate.

If the legate then is the same person as the legate now(Amadi? For some reason I can't remember his actual name), then maybe. But I think the legate was somebody else at the time. Amadi was working with the Tokomare.

[Dutcher]

Maybe the Legate is the one who made the attack.
Seems to me he wanted the war to escalate.

If the legate then is the same person as the legate now(Amadi? For some reason I can't remember his actual name), then maybe. But I think the legate was somebody else at the time. Amadi was working with the Tokomare.

Yes him.
The Tokomare was found later in the war, after the whole Littlehorn thing.
Goldenblood found it while building the Hoof and that was after he almost got killed.
Amadi had no reason to be there at the time.

[Silver136]

Maybe the Legate is the one who made the attack.
Seems to me he wanted the war to escalate.

If the legate then is the same person as the legate now(Amadi? For some reason I can't remember his actual name), then maybe. But I think the legate was somebody else at the time. Amadi was working with the Tokomare.

Yes him.
The Tokomare was found later in the war, after the whole Littlehorn thing.
Goldenblood found it while building the Hoof and that was after he almost got killed.
Amadi had no reason to be there at the time.

True, but how would the zebra legate manage to fight a war while being permitted on Equestrian soil? Plus he's a starkaterri (hope I spelled that right). There's no way the zebras would let him lead.

[Dutcher]

Maybe the Legate is the one who made the attack.
Seems to me he wanted the war to escalate.

If the legate then is the same person as the legate now(Amadi? For some reason I can't remember his actual name), then maybe. But I think the legate was somebody else at the time. Amadi was working with the Tokomare.

Yes him.
The Tokomare was found later in the war, after the whole Littlehorn thing.
Goldenblood found it while building the Hoof and that was after he almost got killed.
Amadi had no reason to be there at the time.

True, but how would the zebra legate manage to fight a war while being permitted on Equestrian soil? Plus he's a starkaterri (hope I spelled that right). There's no way the zebras would let him lead.

Why should anyone from Equestria know he was even there?
Maybe he carried the attack on his own with his loyals? creating a necromancer gas is not too much of a problem for him.
Or maybe he disguised him self as a legate even back then and influnced the zebras to attack Littlehorn.

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