Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Scienza]

Cogs is Nightmare Moon

Is she? I thought she was just the digital copy of "Eclipse" that got created a while ago, basically Luna minus her soul.

Either way, still massive Celestia-related insecurities.

Anywho, more speculation:

Remember some twenty or so chapters back, when Blackjack found out that someone was tampering with her sensory inputs to make her see stuff? Was that Goldenblood? Because if it is, it would actually make a huge amount of sense since Dr. Zodiac was the one who installed all of BJ's implants and she presumably has some loyalty to GB. And/or he just presumably used his (technically rescinded) access to alter the augmentation protocols.

[Vinylshadow]

Was it tampering?

I thought she was tapping into security camera footage, and the main problem that was what she saw normally was being recorded...

Remember, she had to find the right angle to see what was going on, which seemed to be high up in a corner..

I thought Eclipse was Luna herself, just hiding herself with a glamor, or some kind of advanced illusion spell


Coming back to the recording of what she saw...

Cogs obviously wanted to see how she interacted with her friends so she could mimic it and fit in until she could (probably) eliminate them

[Silver136]

Wasn't the tampering Cogs? She said she'd been following Blackjack, and I thought she'd said she was behind the visions in an attempt to giver BJ some insight.

[Vinylshadow]

An interesting thing I found by following videos about knives
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG6US4f4Oq8
Why doesn't Blackjack use a blackjack weapon?
Glory could also use it as a punishment device


Or was it Goldenblood?

Worst case (and amusing) scenario is "Cogjack" is just a way for GB to finally fix his mistakes, by some rather...extreme measures (Horizons)

[Dutcher]

I remember someone posting that it was Goldenblood and not Spike who sent Blackjack the message back at Goldenbloods home.
Ye i also believe he was the one spying on Blackjack.

[Evilgidgit]

It probably was Goldenblood who sent the message to Blackjack. He's the only person with access to Project Horizons, and likely the terminal in his house was rigged to warn him if someone accessed it. He'd likely also know Spike was Watcher, since he likely help set up the spritebot system or at least the surveillance stuff alongside the Gardens of Equestria.

[Scienza]

It probably was Goldenblood who sent the message to Blackjack. He's the only person with access to Project Horizons, and likely the terminal in his house was rigged to warn him if someone accessed it. He'd likely also know Spike was Watcher, since he likely help set up the spritebot system or at least the surveillance stuff alongside the Gardens of Equestria.

Aye, that's also part of why I think it was GB who was hacking into BJ's eyes. Given that Cogs couldn't unseal Chimera, it seems unlikely that she'd have access to recordings of the facility when it was active, let alone ones with Goldenblood in them. While it's possible that she got them from Trueblood or Horse, given that it's recordings of Goldenblood, I don't see that as being that likely.

Goldenblood has access to everything. He built the system and he's pretty much the only one who ever understood all of it.

[Vinylshadow]

Could've sworn he knew nothing about Gardens

[Scienza]

Could've sworn he knew nothing about Gardens

He knew everything about Gardens. It was an OIA project that he personally oversaw, to the point that he was the one who wiped Twilight's memories of it.

[Vinylshadow]

...Wait, what?

I don't remember that

[Silver136]

Yeah. Twilight tried to kiss him around its completion. He drugged her drink, wiped her memory, and I believe drove her to pursue the alicorn research. After all, over a year of important info just got wiped from her head. She must've felt like she was wasting time and resources as a ministry.

[Vinylshadow]

WHEN THE BLOODY HECK DID THAT HAPPEN

gyah, this is why having a story over 3000 pages is a bad idea, you forget what happens when and where

Maybe I should've gotten the separate volumes instead of the solid PDF

[Silver136]

It was in a memory orb, I don't remember exactly when she found it though. I think it was either the one she found in Fluttershy medical center the second time around, or when she first met Spike and went down the side tunnel in his cave.

[Vinylshadow]

Interesting

Makes me hate him all the more

[Dutcher]

It probably was Goldenblood who sent the message to Blackjack. He's the only person with access to Project Horizons, and likely the terminal in his house was rigged to warn him if someone accessed it. He'd likely also know Spike was Watcher, since he likely help set up the spritebot system or at least the surveillance stuff alongside the Gardens of Equestria.

Aye, that's also part of why I think it was GB who was hacking into BJ's eyes. Given that Cogs couldn't unseal Chimera, it seems unlikely that she'd have access to recordings of the facility when it was active, let alone ones with Goldenblood in them. While it's possible that she got them from Trueblood or Horse, given that it's recordings of Goldenblood, I don't see that as being that likely.

Goldenblood has access to everything. He built the system and he's pretty much the only one who ever understood all of it.

Snce he built it he must have some back door access
Maybe he can somehow override EC and lock Cog out of the system?

[Scienza]

WHEN THE BLOODY HECK DID THAT HAPPEN

gyah, this is why having a story over 3000 pages is a bad idea, you forget what happens when and where

Maybe I should've gotten the separate volumes instead of the solid PDF

“I have no doubt.”  There was a clinking of glasses and then a sound of them being filled.  I looked at an empty bottle of wine and two stained glasses, one broken on the floor.  “A toast… to our efforts to save Equestria.  One way or another, she’ll be returned to what she should be.”


A sound of drinking, then a sigh.  “Well, I guess there’s nothing left but to erase your memories now as well, Goldenblood.”


“Ah, yes.  I’m afraid we’re going to hit a snag there,” Goldenblood said softly.  “I’m sorry Twilight…”


“Golden?  What are you talking… about…”  And then there was a soft thud.


“You are brilliant, Twilight.  But sadly you’re not sneaky enough.  You won’t be able to keep this secret forever.  I will,” he said softly.  “If your method fails, mine will succeed.”


A few minutes later, a much younger sounding Spike asked, “Twilight?  Golden?  Is everything okay?”

“Just fine, Spike.  I’m afraid she’s exhausted, though.  I removed the memories of this place just like she planned.  I’ll take her back to the M.A.S. hub in Hoofington to recover.”  Another pause.  “You know what you have to do?”

The length being a problem? Nah, you just have to be insane enough to reread the fic over and over again  .

[Vinylshadow]

*eye twitches*

Maybe later

chapter 24

No wonder I don't remember that; that was 40-something chapters ago DX

[Silver136]

Interesting

Makes me hate him all the more

How can you hate poor Goldie? Wasn't all his fault. He should've died, its what he expected to happen. Itsbwhy he helped at first at all. Then he wanted to quit and Luna blackmailed him. He had no real choice. I personally love Goldie as a character

[Dutcher]

Interesting

Makes me hate him all the more

How can you hate poor Goldie? Wasn't all his fault. He should've died, its what he expected to happen. Itsbwhy he helped at first at all. Then he wanted to quit and Luna blackmailed him. He had no real choice. I personally love Goldie as a character

Still he did some bad stuff like trying to kill Celestia.

[Silver136]

Interesting

Makes me hate him all the more

How can you hate poor Goldie? Wasn't all his fault. He should've died, its what he expected to happen. Itsbwhy he helped at first at all. Then he wanted to quit and Luna blackmailed him. He had no real choice. I personally love Goldie as a character

Still he did some bad stuff like trying to kill Celestia.

He never tried. He said "Don't make me." He only did what he did for the good of his country. He's not bad, just forced to make hard choices.

[Scienza]

Interesting

Makes me hate him all the more

How can you hate poor Goldie? Wasn't all his fault. He should've died, its what he expected to happen. Itsbwhy he helped at first at all. Then he wanted to quit and Luna blackmailed him. He had no real choice. I personally love Goldie as a character

Same. He's a manipulative, ruthless, Machiavellian bastard, but he chose to become one for all the right reasons.

Sort of like how Red Eye was the perfect counterpart to Littlepip because he was the ultimate corruption and culmination of her ideals (until those pesky Enclave came along and turned the morality from shades of gray back to boring black and white), I see Goldenblood as the ultimate evolution of Blackjack's ideal of "we do what we must."

As for liking/disliking him, the way I see it, there are sort of three basic categories upon which I like/dislike characters. There's basic moral, which is basically just whether they're a good pony or not (I like Calamity on this, I dislike Brass on this). Then there's emotional, which is pretty much whether I find them fun/likable/enjoyable or not (I love Rampage on this, I dislike Velvet Remedy on this). Then there's intellectual, which is whether I find them interesting/complex/sympathetic/particularly well-written (I love Lacunae on this, I dislike Velvet Remedy on this). These categories aren't necessarily mutually exclusive (for example, I don't see Mallets and the other minor Reapers as that high on the morality or complexity scales, but I find them incredibly fun). For me, Goldenblood ranks unbelievably high in the last category.

[SilentCarto]

Also, when would Flutters be untree'd by? Because in the unlikely event that Golden and/or Whisper live long enough, they could have an awkward meetup.

Well, the epilogue of FOE was "ten years later", and Fluttershy said it took years after her de-treeification to put herself back together. So unless you're talking a decade or so in the future, Fluttershy is either a tree or basically catatonic.

Anyway, I tend to think Goldenblood and Whisper would be on the list of things she tries not to think about too much.

Cogs is Nightmare Moon

Is she? I thought she was just the digital copy of "Eclipse" that got created a while ago, basically Luna minus her soul.

Well, yes. That's pretty much what Nightmare Moon is. NMM is a part of Luna; even if she's more balanced now, Luna has that potential within her. Remove the soul and give her a couple hundred years to stew, and yeah, I think what you get is more Nightmare Moon than Luna.

[Icy Shake]

Blackjack finds Goldenblood (extra points if a crystal prison/stasis chamber is involved—happening under a mountain is free at this point) and gets the low-down on what's going on or what happened in the war or something. Cogs and the rest arrive and are confronted by Blackjack, with Goldenblood playing backup. Cognitum pulls a Chryssie by not even trying to deny Blackjack's and his assertion, revealing herself beyond the fact that she was doing a shitty job of impersonation all along, and probably kills or severely injures Goldenblood, which serves as the cliffhanger for the chapter as the rest try to figure out what to do.

You monster

Not that I'm the sort to deny his monstrousness, but how exactly did it come through here? It'd be useful to learn keep it under wraps, after all.

[Scienza]

Also, when would Flutters be untree'd by? Because in the unlikely event that Golden and/or Whisper live long enough, they could have an awkward meetup.

Well, the epilogue of FOE was "ten years later", and Fluttershy said it took years after her de-treeification to put herself back together. So unless you're talking a decade or so in the future, Fluttershy is either a tree or basically catatonic.

Anyway, I tend to think Goldenblood and Whisper would be on the list of things she tries not to think about too much.

I dunno. I think she'd like to at least meet her daughter at some point.

Cogs is Nightmare Moon

Is she? I thought she was just the digital copy of "Eclipse" that got created a while ago, basically Luna minus her soul.

Well, yes. That's pretty much what Nightmare Moon is. NMM is a part of Luna; even if she's more balanced now, Luna has that potential within her. Remove the soul and give her a couple hundred years to stew, and yeah, I think what you get is more Nightmare Moon than Luna.

Is that how we're defining NMM in PH canon? 'cause it's kinda weird. In FiM, it's because Luna was feeling angsty. In the comics, it's because she was possessed by moon demons. In the original FoE, it's hinted that it's possession with Steelhooves' whole "SAY SHE WAS A DIFFERENT PERSON OR I WILL SHOOT YOUR STRIPED ASS" thing, but that might just be Equestrian propaganda. Right now, I'm not sure which explanation is more consistent with PH, since the fic does heavily feature both psychological instability and cosmic eldritch horror.

Unless of course, it got confirmed in a chapter or by Somber and I'm just being forgetful   .

[FeatherDust]

Now I think I've heard everything...

"Hey, you [lesbian couples] can get pregnant if you both love each other very much and both want a baby"

Hermaphrodity spell...

I know this was all several pages and a few days back, but --

Both of those solutions always drive me a little nuts. One of the hurdles in a same-sex relationship is how to handle the child issue, and it always feels cheap to me for the author to just wave his hands in the air and declare that magic fixes it. Especially if it's common or simple.

I'm a little amazed that herm/rule 63 magic shows up so much more often than, shall we say, stud service (which is at least a straightforward answer). And that's really leaving aside the whole question of whether a lesbian mare would even be okay with a herm spell on her partner.

Overwhelmingly, fan-fiction (not just pony fanfic) seems to assume it's just fine, but I kind of think that wouldn't be the case in reality. I am not a lesbian woman, but it kind of strikes me as another manifestation of the insulting idea that "all lesbians love dick, they just don't know it yet". This is, of course, assuming the characters are totally down with the idea, which is the case in the vast majority I've ever seen. I don't recall, off hand, having seen one where the discussion even briefly involves, "Well, ick, I don't like this, but I guess it's the only way, and as long as it's you and everything..."

I'm aware of the irony of attacking that concept immediately after mentioning stud services. They're two different problems with the scenario; one of pulling the magic card rather than actually addressing the issue, and the other of implying that lesbians are secretly bisexual.

[Scienza]

@Herms
Would it be cool if I moved this to a PM? It's kinda off topic.

[FeatherDust]

Makes me hate him all the more

How can you hate poor Goldie? Wasn't all his fault

Same. He's a manipulative, ruthless, Machiavellian bastard, but he chose to become one for all the right reasons.

On the one hand, Goldenblood had a generally good intent.  He authentically wanted to reach a good end.

On the other hoof, we all know what the road to Hell is paved with.  He did terrible things (and failed to put a stop to even worse things) because he thought doing evil in the name of good was The Right Thing. But what Goldie thought was the Right Thing was often a long way from what would actually be best. And this is the reason "the end justifies the means" is not a good policy; it requires the one making those decisions to be able to be perfectly wise.  Nobody can see all the unintended consequences, or ensure that everyone does what they are expected to do, or be sure that the ends that the planner has in mind are the correct ends.

Overall, while I think he had good intent, Goldenblood ultimately did the wrong thing, repeatedly, and did it knowing it was wrong. He does seem to have tried to fix things once he got better information, but he could have saved everyone a huge war if he hadn't jumped into the middle of it all. I suppose he did it for love of Luna, but at best that means he manipulated an entire nation and caused vast numbers of deaths over a crush.

Also he made Fluttershy cry, and that's a hanging offense in 38 states.  So.

[Guest]

@"Hermaphrodity Spell, Away!"
Well, if we assume that the authors are pansexual to some degree, and that this informs their take on sexuality, that'd explain it more amicably than "lesbians secretly want the ding dong," I suppose. Another part would be that body exoticism is generally already present in stories like that (since, y'know, ponies) so the idea of growing new bits would probably seem exciting to the author, rather than distressing. Possible explanations, anyway. (Also, most sexytime stories don't try to cover awkwardness beyond the "aww, so cute" level, so uncomfortable PIV sex is probably right out)

[Silver136]

Makes me hate him all the more

How can you hate poor Goldie? Wasn't all his fault

Same. He's a manipulative, ruthless, Machiavellian bastard, but he chose to become one for all the right reasons.

On the one hand, Goldenblood had a generally good intent.  He authentically wanted to reach a good end.

On the other hoof, we all know what the road to Hell is paved with.  He did terrible things (and failed to put a stop to even worse things) because he thought doing evil in the name of good was The Right Thing.  But what Goldie thought was the Right Thing was often a long way from what would actually be best. And this is the reason "the end justifies the means" is not a good policy; it requires the one making those decisions to be able to be perfectly wise.  Nobody can see all the unintended consequences, or ensure that everyone does what they are expected to do, or be sure that the ends that the planner has in mind are the correct ends.

Overall, while I think he had good intent, Goldenblood ultimately did the wrong thing, repeatedly, and did it knowing it was wrong.  He does seem to have tried to fix things once he got better information, but he could have saved everyone a huge war if he hadn't jumped into the middle of it all.  I suppose he did it for love of Luna, but at best that means he manipulated an entire nation and caused vast numbers of deaths over a crush.

Also he made Fluttershy cry, and that's a hanging offense in 38 states.  So.

I still like Goldenblood. His issues started because Luna had helped him, so he wanted to help her in return. Also, like I said he expected to die. The ministries were something he never actually planned to deal with, because he knew he would die before they came to be. I don't see all that much of what he did to he the wrong thing personally. All he did, he did to get an advantage for Equestria, and if you recall he always kept lines open to the Zebras in the OIA negotiating peace.

As for Fluttershy, it wasn't on purpose, and he's been constantly apologetic.

[Evilgidgit]

I quite like Goldenblood a lot. Sure, he can be a manipulative jerk with one too many questionable moral-crossing actions, but he always wanted what was best for Equestria. Plus he did truly love Fluttershy and was heartbroken by his own actions (stupid Luna). I always loved the memory orb where they meet post-pregnancy.

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