Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Icy Shake]

Chapter Forty Nine Overall Thoughts:

Chapter Forty Nine Editing:

Other Editing:

Oh, and is anyone else running into problems with the Google Docs pages? I'm being kicked out with an error

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on both the hub page and the chapters, logged in or not, in edit or preview mode, in both Firefox and IE.

[WavemasterRyx]

Horizons is three stories all smooshed together.  If I'd actually been a writer worth crap, I would have focused on clustering the story.  Book 1 would have been BJ getting EC-1101, dealing with the zodiacs, and culimating with Deus and getting the Info on Horizons.  Book 2 would have focused on the war between the reapers and the Steel Rangers, culminating in the sea pony.  Book three would have focused on the east side of the river, culminating in High Tower (and dealing with Sanguine THEN).  Book 4 would have been Thunderhead.  Book 5 is Horizons.

Well... you can always rewrite it for the movie adaption, sir. That's pretty common.

[SilentCarto]

Horizons is three stories all smooshed together.  If I'd actually been a writer worth crap, I would have focused on clustering the story.

I'm simultaneously reminded of two quotes. The first is from Malcolm Gladwell, who wrote in Outliers that it takes roughly ten thousand hours of practice to achieve mastery in a field. The second is a similar sentiment expressed by Chuck Jones of Warner Brothers fame: "Every artist has thousands of bad drawings in them, and the only way to get rid of them is to draw them out." In other words, it's good that you recognize where you could have improved the dramatic arc of this story, but don't beat yourself up over not doing it that way from the start. Every awesome writer in the world had to screw up over and over to achieve awesomeness, and I don't think any of them ever looked at themselves and said, "Okay, I don't need to improve any more."
In any case, the improvement you're talking about is on the "right side of the decimal point" -- it's not the difference between   and  , it's the difference between    and  .

[Somber]

Rewrite... Horizons?

      

I really need to learn how to imbed images...

Anyway, no.

Thank you Icy, for your analysis, as always.  You reminded me of two mistakes I made.  One is that stygius can talk with his helmet.  He didn't have in in 67.  But, another is that Tenebra talks in the royal canterlot tongue.  I had her talking to blackjack in the informal tongue.  Might be something we'd need to fancy up.  Not sure...

[Scienza]

I have returned after many, many weeks spent AFK and found that there is a new chapter and many, many pages of speculation just waiting for me. Huzzah!

[Vinylshadow]

After that whole Alex Louis Armstrong Steel Ranger fiasco, I think you're going to be hard-pressed to write fancy

[RoboRed]

I have returned after many, many weeks spent AFK and found that there is a new chapter and many, many pages of speculation just waiting for me. Huzzah!

This probably means you also missed the several Scienzabaits I posted in the chat thread.

[O. Hinds]

Yeah, but I feel like the situations are very different, with Red Eye largely being an evil character using "corrupted generosity" to mess with Littlepip's head, taking advantage of her weird obsession with Virtues.

IIRC and as far as I can find, he never actually mentioned it; she came up with it on her own.

Part of the issue is that he's very consciously doing it, in a way that may well increase the chances of things falling apart compared to a more consensual change from the status quo (among other things, he's putting some pretty clearly terrible people in positions of power—and I'm not talking stuff from MN7 but for example the mercenary forces), not to mention setting himself up to be in essence the god of the new world, whatever his protests to the contrary. In contrast, where Blackjack made the same mistake, it was because of something closer to an unthinking carelessness which she rapidly came to regret and listed among her greatest mistakes—and didn't repeat.

Good point.

re error spotting and commentary:
Ah, thank you very much as always.

Oh, and is anyone else running into problems with the Google Docs pages? I'm being kicked out with an error

Hm, I ran into that problem yesterday with an unrelated doc while in preview mode.

I deduce that there's something in the Chapter Forty Nine Editing about the capitalization of "contract"? I think I see what you're saying, though. I decided to capitalize those examples when they were said by a griffin or after Blackjack has the significant of the Contracts explained to her. I did 38, 47, and 58, in other words; in 21, Blackjack was just reading it and wouldn't know the significance. In 45, Ahuizotl was saying it and probably not respecting it.

Well... you can always rewrite it for the movie adaption, sir. That's pretty common.

:D

Might be something we'd need to fancy up. Not sure...

No, she was trying to be dramatic. I think it's fine.

[Vinylshadow]

I'd LOVE a Fallout movie, whether it has ponies or humans

The real problem I can see would be picking a quest line or two to use as the backbone of the story though

Who's the Red Eye and Fillydelphia of Fallout? 1, 2 or 3? New Vegas? Another game?

[Silver136]

I'd LOVE a Fallout movie, whether it has ponies or humans

The real problem I can see would be picking a quest line or two to use as the backbone of the story though

Who's the Red Eye and Fillydelphia of Fallout? 1, 2 or 3? New Vegas? Another game?

Fallout 3, the Pitt DLC. Red Eye is the guy that leads the raiders. Pittsburgh is Fillydelphia. I can tell you what the guy looks like but not his name...and as fallout is my favorite series (probably 1000 hrs total play adding all 5 games) I'm dissapointed in myself. I believe it starts with an A, but all I can think of is LOTR for some reason...

[Scienza]

I have returned after many, many weeks spent AFK and found that there is a new chapter and many, many pages of speculation just waiting for me. Huzzah!

This probably means you also missed the several Scienzabaits I posted in the chat thread.

Damn it.

Trawling chat thread nao.

[Vinylshadow]

I'd LOVE a Fallout movie, whether it has ponies or humans

The real problem I can see would be picking a quest line or two to use as the backbone of the story though

Who's the Red Eye and Fillydelphia of Fallout? 1, 2 or 3? New Vegas? Another game?

Fallout 3, the Pitt DLC. Red Eye is the guy that leads the raiders. Pittsburgh is Fillydelphia. I can tell you what the guy looks like but not his name...and as fallout is my favorite series (probably 1000 hrs total play adding all 5 games) I'm dissapointed in myself. I believe it starts with an A, but all I can think of is LOTR for some reason...

You're thinking of Ishmael Ashur, I believe

[Silver136]

You're thinking of Ishmael Ashur, I believe

There it is. Thank you, it's been driving me nuts, and its good to have the name. 

[Vinylshadow]

Of course

I wonder who Sanguine and the Zodiacs are based on

[RoboRed]

I have returned after many, many weeks spent AFK and found that there is a new chapter and many, many pages of speculation just waiting for me. Huzzah!

This probably means you also missed the several Scienzabaits I posted in the chat thread.

Damn it.

Trawling chat thread nao.

Do eet.  

[O. Hinds]

I wonder who Sanguine and the Zodiacs are based on

Not everything has to be taken from the games, you know...

[Vinylshadow]

True enough, it's usually just the locations...

I kinda like the idea of a group based on a Zodiac though

Probably has a high turnover rate though, that's gotta be a pain

[Silver136]

True enough, it's usually just the locations...

I kinda like the idea of a group based on a Zodiac though

Probably has a high turnover rate though, that's gotta be a pain

There are a lot of Zodiak style groups, not just in games but in media overall. They're essentially a group of bounty hunters whose character is based on some symbology. There's probably a trope about it somewhere, but I haven't looked at any tropes in a while.

[Scienza]

I wonder who Sanguine and the Zodiacs are based on

Not everything has to be taken from the games, you know...

And, to be honest, I feel like the parts that aren't from the game are the strongest elements in the FoE verse (Like, say, Lucidity) and the weakest parts are the ones that are directly taken from the games (The Enclave in the original).

[Vinylshadow]

Gotta spice it up a little, toss in a few meglomaniacs, some level-headed leaders with less-than-ideal designs and mix it up with some post-apocalyptic storytelling and ponies and you've got a good start

[Icy Shake]

Thank you Icy, for your analysis, as always.  You reminded me of two mistakes I made.  One is that stygius can talk with his helmet.  He didn't have in in 67.  But, another is that Tenebra talks in the royal canterlot tongue.  I had her talking to blackjack in the informal tongue.  Might be something we'd need to fancy up.  Not sure...

You're welcome. I just wish I had more worthwhile things to say this time around. Can't turn out that way every time though, I suppose.

On Stygius, does that affect how Blackjack would see him mating with Tenebra (practical genetics, not incest taboo), given that it's down from both of them having a major symptom of genetic collapse to just her? Specifically, this:

I pulled out the spear haft and held her as she went from seizing to crying.  Stygius couldn’t speak coherently.  Tenebra had seizures.  I wonder what would have happened if they actually had kids together, then shoved that ugly thought aside.

Yeah, but I feel like the situations are very different, with Red Eye largely being an evil character using "corrupted generosity" to mess with Littlepip's head, taking advantage of her weird obsession with Virtues.

IIRC and as far as I can find, he never actually mentioned it; she came up with it on her own.

Part of the issue is that he's very consciously doing it, in a way that may well increase the chances of things falling apart compared to a more consensual change from the status quo (among other things, he's putting some pretty clearly terrible people in positions of power—and I'm not talking stuff from MN7 but for example the mercenary forces), not to mention setting himself up to be in essence the god of the new world, whatever his protests to the contrary. In contrast, where Blackjack made the same mistake, it was because of something closer to an unthinking carelessness which she rapidly came to regret and listed among her greatest mistakes—and didn't repeat.

Good point.

Well damn, she did, didn't she? I think the basic point still holds, though, that he wasn't so much corrupted generosity as a simple megalomaniac who happened to have some programs that would be good.

I deduce that there's something in the Chapter Forty Nine Editing about the capitalization of "contract"?  I think I see what you're saying, though.  I decided to capitalize those examples when they were said by a griffin or after Blackjack has the significant of the Contracts explained to her.  I did 38, 47, and 58, in other words; in 21, Blackjack was just reading it and wouldn't know the significance.  In 45, Ahuizotl was saying it and probably not respecting it.

Not forty nine specifically; I noticed the pattern mainly in forty eight, but didn't think at the time to check elsewhere. At any rate, that way of dealing with it sounds fine, and the point that Ahuizotl would think of it as a common contract is a good one.

Might be something we'd need to fancy up.  Not sure...

No, she was trying to be dramatic.  I think it's fine.

Yeah, that's what I figured too. She was angry with her brother, and, after all, the RCL is for the "tourists" (the opinion didn't come from her, but there's no reason it couldn't be more broadly held than just by Lionheart). I figure it was in forty nine and forty four a simple case of putting on a show for the outsiders, abandoned at home after they were normalized as a new part of their society.

[O. Hinds]

Stygius couldn’t speak coherently.

Sigh; I thought we got all of those. Thank you as always!
Hm…
There we go. Slightly tricky fix, but I think that it works.

[SilentCarto]

Who's the Red Eye and Fillydelphia of Fallout? 1, 2 or 3? New Vegas? Another game?

Fallout 3, the Pitt DLC. Red Eye is the guy that leads the raiders. Pittsburgh is Fillydelphia. I can tell you what the guy looks like but not his name...and as fallout is my favorite series (probably 1000 hrs total play adding all 5 games) I'm dissapointed in myself. I believe it starts with an A, but all I can think of is LOTR for some reason...

I haven't played the Pitt, but I went and looked that up after reading FOE. And you know? I was disappointed in the gladiatorial arena. Kkat had a much more interesting risk/reward idea than just tossing some radioactive barrels in to give you a time limit. (Anyway, how does it make sense that the fighters, ostensibly slaves, can bring in any weapons they possess, which they shouldn't have, because they're slaves?)

You're thinking of Ishmael Ashur, I believe

Names to run away from really fast.

[Silver136]

You're thinking of Ishmael Ashur, I believe

Names to run away from really fast.

Actually, the Pitt was one of my favorite FO3 DLC's. It put an interesting angle on morality in the wasteland, though I generally find myself siding with Ashur. Call me evil, but that escaped slave guy is a huge prick once you meet him again, and Ashur really is accomplishing something with the labor.

[SilentCarto]

Oh, and is anyone else running into problems with the Google Docs pages? I'm being kicked out with an error

Hm, I ran into that problem yesterday with an unrelated doc while in preview mode.

I'm seeing the error too, by the way. Whenever it loads, it pops up a box saying "File Unavailable -- Sorry, there's a problem with this file. Please reload."

Remind me again why we're not using FimFiction? (No, seriously, I'm not being snotty about this...)

Actually, the Pitt was one of my favorite FO3 DLC's. It put an interesting angle on morality in the wasteland, though I generally find myself siding with Ashur. Call me evil, but that escaped slave guy is a huge prick once you meet him again, and Ashur really is accomplishing something with the labor.

You know, I had this discussion about Red Eye back in the day, too. In short, my view is that a society can't be stable when it's founded on the idea that "when the going gets tough, the tough get ruthless". The slave labor may be able to accomplish huge projects, but those kids growing up in Red Eye's school will always have it lurking in the back of their heads that when things go wrong, the first step to fixing it is, "So we'll set up slave camps here, here, and here..." Ultimately, you can't create a society that respects human rights (or... pony rights... you know what I mean!) on a foundation of inhumanity.

(Before anyone brings up slavery in the US as a counterexample, I want to point out that our founding documents were quite clear about universal freedom, and it took a vicious war to end the hypocrisy about it. I could easily make the argument that the trauma of the Civil War was equivalent to a revolution, even if the nation wasn't technically destroyed in the process.)

[Silver136]

Actually, the Pitt was one of my favorite FO3 DLC's. It put an interesting angle on morality in the wasteland, though I generally find myself siding with Ashur. Call me evil, but that escaped slave guy is a huge prick once you meet him again, and Ashur really is accomplishing something with the labor.

You know, I had this discussion about Red Eye back in the day, too. In short, my view is that a society can't be stable when it's founded on the idea that "when the going gets tough, the tough get ruthless". The slave labor may be able to accomplish huge projects, but those kids growing up in Red Eye's school will always have it lurking in the back of their heads that when things go wrong, the first step to fixing it is, "So we'll set up slave camps here, here, and here..." Ultimately, you can't create a society that respects human rights (or... pony rights... you know what I mean!) on a foundation of inhumanity.

(Before anyone brings up slavery in the US as a counterexample, I want to point out that our founding documents were quite clear about universal freedom, and it took a vicious war to end the hypocrisy about it. I could easily make the argument that the trauma of the Civil War was equivalent to a revolution, even if the nation wasn't technically destroyed in the process.)

Now I actually agree with you here, and were I in his shoes there were a lot of things I would change. However, in Red Eye's 30, maybe 40, years of life he's accomplished more to bring back a stable society than the wasteland has by itself in 200 years. Now his methods are flawed. First off, he's enslaving the wrong people. Are they easy to control? Sure, but by enslaving primarily innocents and having raiders rule them, you're essentially creating more raiders and decreasing the number of good worthwhile people in the wasteland. Second, he focuses too much on a "good pony master race" idealism. By constantly trying to wipe out all other factions he's promoting violence, when making peace and working together would further his cause. Though I figure that's a good amount of the plot isn't it? Anyways my point is if he did some things just slightly differently I don't think it would've ended so badly for him, which is why I'm on team Red Eye/Ashur.

[Somber]

Sadly, our founding documents were very clear about slavery.  3 out of every 5 slaves would be counted for congressional representation.  Secondly, horrifying as it is, Red Eye does have a fast track to infrastructure thing going on.  He's jumping the gun with his school and wasting resources with the Cathedral, but fact is that few individual ponies would be willing to work in environments guaranteed to kill them. 

Today, in the south, there are people who deny that slavery was bad.  Who think the slaves were happy to be slaves.  That slavery was good.  They refuse to acknowledge their ancestors were practicing an abominable act that deserved to be stopped.

[Silver136]

True, when innocents are enslaved for the leisure of the powerful, it is a great atrocity. However, there are no shortages of atrocious people out there who not only deserve, but could benefit from a lesson in humility. I'm not saying you steal a sweet roll (haha Skyrim joke) and get tossed into a slave pit (or a plantation for a real world reference), but if you murder someone, you've just gotten rid of a life that wasn't yours. In my eyes yours is now forfeit. Killing someone is a waste. They don't learn from that. Others hope to die for their crimes, they want to "go out with a bang." Slave labor as a punishment is a better alternative, especially in a post nuclear wasteland. It does build infrastructure, it helps rebuild society. At the same time, criminals see that they're not going to be killed for their crimes. Instead they are forced to work until they either learn or drop dead.

[Vinylshadow]

We've got slavery, and now what's-his-face is keeping Blackjack prisoner in the Shadowlands

I highly doubt giving him a good lay would convince him to let her go either

If I got a good lay, I'd want to keep the person around....

[Scienza]

If we're going to be purely pragmatic about it, one of the major issues about the system of slavery that you propose is a matter of scalability. As your society progresses and new technology is developed, the size of the workforce needed increases exponentially, which would either necessitate a constant and proportionate increase in crime rates (which would be something that you would be trying to avoid in your perfect society), or you need another source of slaves. That's why Red Eye needed so many goddamn slaves for Fillydelphia and why over twelve million slaves were taken and brought to the Americas between the 16th and 19th centuries. Building a state around slave labor requires you to become aggressively expansionist to feed your society's continuous hunger for more labor, leading to a society that's ultimately unsustainable.

This isn't even getting into the fact that it's also just extremely repugnant ethically.

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