Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Derpmind]

Where's the interest in a villain that's lacking depth? Goldenblood is complex, deep... and understated. He tried to have a hoof in everything, but in return every sin on Equestria's side of the war had some connection to him. What was worse: That he was willing to do anything for his goals, or that he believed that he could steer a runaway wagon on the road straight down to hell?

[Downloaded Skill]

I have mixed feelings about Goldenblood. While I like him as a character, he has traits and beliefs that I can respect, and I like how he gives more insight into wartime Equestria, but I don't like what he does to certain themes in the FO:E Universe. While I am not a fan of the original FO:E one theme I really liked is that good people can do absolutely monstrous things in times of crisis if they aren't held accountable. I liked how the Mane 6's characters devolved into what they were because they felt like they had to do things and there was no one to keep them in check, no one to question them. It all made sense to me. Goldenblood lessens the impact the war had on the mane 6 by stealing away a majority of the responsibility for the crimes. Not all of it, but a very noticeable amount.

[Vinylshadow]

Everyone loves a villain who operates behind the scenes, pulling a hundred different strings to suit his needs

Hard to predict, hard to counter and hard to track down and eredicate

[Silver136]

That's because they're smart, and a smart "villain" often times isn't a complete villain. Goldenblood worked behind the scenes to secure resources for projects he believed would give Equestria the war. He worked carefully and intelligently, where as the ministries projects were known by pretty much every member of every ministry. It allowed him to get things done that can't be done under normal circumstances, and to me his willingness to follow through no matter what makes him a great character. All he did, he did it with the hopes that it would end the war sooner, so I've always considered Goldie more of an anti-hero than a villain.

[Vinylshadow]

He's just doing what he thinks is best for Equestria, even if he has to make a mountain of corpses to do it

[Silver136]

"Sometimes to do what's right, you have to become the villain of the piece."      -Scootaloo


Sometimes you need a mountain of corpses to stop an ocean of corpses from forming.

[Vinylshadow]

Sounds about right

Interesting how some characters seem to develop personalities of their own without your control

Like my own are wont to do from time to time


They get a life of their own and you write without thinking, and looking back, you think to yourself "That's not what I had in mind, but why does it seem to suit them?"


That's what makes a good story to me, one that seems to take a life of its own

[Moodyman90]

On my phone so limited in my response but will try to elaborate later if I remember to. Goldenblood's problem is than helping/repaying Luna and trying to end the war that favored her being on the throne, his motivation was death. His death.
"I can do this because I'll be dead soon." "When the war is over I'll take all the blame and be executed if I'm still alive."

But he never did die. He lived longer than anyone would expect him to. And no matter his plans and efforts, the war raged on. For  all his work, for all his plans, for as far and wide and for as many things he had a hoof in directly or not, he didn't have half the control he thought he had. And for that he was used by greater beings. Plans hijacked and subverted. And used by the one he was trying to help.
He had Nobel goals, self-sacrificing plans, and fully willing to become a villain, but for the time he was in it was all for naught. Very tragic, but a hero it does not make him. Not even of the anti kind. He's not even a villain in this case. He was a pawn who thought himself a king.
But a funny thing about pawns. If the live long enough to make it to the other side of the board, they become kings.

[Stringtheory]

But a funny thing about pawns. If the live long enough to make it to the other side of the board, they become kings.

Um, don't want to ruin your (very good) chess metaphor, but isn't the highest ranked piece a pawn can become a queen?

[Vinylshadow]

Well, a Queen is much more maneuverable than a king...

Kinda makes me wonder what Empress Faust is doing while Equestria blew itself to kingdom come

Probably making a new world somewhere

[Guest]

But a funny thing about pawns. If the live long enough to make it to the other side of the board, they become kings.

Um, don't want to ruin your (very good) chess metaphor, but isn't the highest ranked piece a pawn can become a queen?  

I'm pretty sure that's right. Besides a king is just a fancy pawn, it behaves the same way.

[Stringtheory]

But a funny thing about pawns. If the live long enough to make it to the other side of the board, they become kings.

Um, don't want to ruin your (very good) chess metaphor, but isn't the highest ranked piece a pawn can become a queen?  

I'm pretty sure that's right. Besides a king is just a fancy pawn, it behaves the same way.

No, a king can move (and attack) one space in any direction while a pawn can only move forwards and attacks one space away on each of the forward diagonals.

Chess Rules

[Guest]

Well, I learned to play the game from family. Someone must have played with houserules somewhere down the line and passed on the misinformation to me.

Forgive my ignorance.

Still, even if that was a choice (Correct me if I'm wrong here.) It's a baby queen. It's one of the least useful pieces and still the most important, just not sure the comparison is accurate.

I don't know maybe a pawn would strive to be king. For the marginal upgrade.

[Vinylshadow]

Minus the two-space jump on first move...

The King is just...there

[Stringtheory]

I don't know maybe a pawn would strive to be king. For the marginal upgrade.

No, you couldn't have two kings because the king is THE central piece, if your king is in the position to be taken and there is no way to get out of it (a.k.a. checkmate) then you lose, being able to have two kings would completely fuck up the rules.

[Silver136]

He's just doing what he thinks is best for Equestria, even if he has to make a mountain of corpses to do it

He's a stupid, insufferable tool who never looked far-enough ahead to understand where everything was going, despite placing himself such that only he ever could actually see where everything is going.

Man, I never expected there to be this much hatred towards Goldie...I always liked him and thought he was a good guy stuck with a crappy position full of bad or worse choices.

[Guest]

*snip*

I understand the basic mechanic of chess. I played it very poorly for a short while. I sent you a PM so we're not offtopic in the thread anymore.

[Vinylshadow]

...

Now I'm seeing Equestria as a giant chessboard with pieces spread out with Goldenblood hovering over it, carefully managing both sides of the board toward a single conclusion

We've seen that Fallout Equestria ends in sunshine and rainbows, but that doesn't mean Project Horizons will

[Silver136]

He's just doing what he thinks is best for Equestria, even if he has to make a mountain of corpses to do it

He's a stupid, insufferable tool who never looked far-enough ahead to understand where everything was going, despite placing himself such that only he ever could actually see where everything is going.

Man, I never expected there to be this much hatred towards Goldie...I always liked him and thought he was a good guy stuck with a crappy position full of bad or worse choices.

Even the "good" things he did were despicable.  Like protecting Fluttershy from the megaspell ordeal. Protecting Rarity's work with the black book. Every last one of the projects. Removing Twilight's memories of her greatest achievement and hope for the future. Discord's imprisonment. Everything he ever did.
He wasn't personally responsible for everything, but he was a lynch pin in a ton.

He did all that for all the right reasons though! Having an important official like Fluttershy discovered as a zebra sympathizer would be a crushing blow to the government. The rest of the Mane 6 would start questioning things and likely quit, not to mention what the public would do. And Goldenblood said it himself. There's no way Twilight would be able to keep such a massive project secret. Luna would've had her head, and then we face the same issue. The other ministries would soon drop out as well.

[Vinylshadow]

Even though if the other Mares had quit, they could have saved Equestria?

[Stringtheory]

Even though if the other Mares had quit, they could have saved Equestria?

But you see, the Mane6 were still friends, if one of them had quit all of them would have quit, not to mention one of the ministries falling apart would have thrown equestria so out of whack that the zebras would steamroll them. Though I am relying on old info:

Source

[Silver136]

I'm with Stringtheory on this one. The ministries had too much on them. Resources, the public eye, even the nobility (as we see with the Blueblood-Rarity encounter) were all looking to the ministries to be their leaders. For them to just quit would have crushed morale, not to mention shut down countless projects and experiments until the government could find a way to continue them. The setback would be massive, and I doubt the zebras would not use it to their advantage. With all the spies we know they had, they would have crushed Equestria the second they heard it was weakened.

[Dutcher]

Interesting

Makes me hate him all the more

How can you hate poor Goldie? Wasn't all his fault. He should've died, its what he expected to happen. Itsbwhy he helped at first at all. Then he wanted to quit and Luna blackmailed him. He had no real choice. I personally love Goldie as a character

Still he did some bad stuff like trying to kill Celestia.

He never tried. He said "Don't make me." He only did what he did for the good of his country. He's not bad, just forced to make hard choices.

Was it him or the other OIA director who ordered Psalm to kill Celestia if necessary ?

Blackjack finds Goldenblood (extra points if a crystal prison/stasis chamber is involved—happening under a mountain is free at this point) and gets the low-down on what's going on or what happened in the war or something. Cogs and the rest arrive and are confronted by Blackjack, with Goldenblood playing backup. Cognitum pulls a Chryssie by not even trying to deny Blackjack's and his assertion, revealing herself beyond the fact that she was doing a shitty job of impersonation all along, and probably kills or severely injures Goldenblood, which serves as the cliffhanger for the chapter as the rest try to figure out what to do.

You monster

Not that I'm the sort to deny his monstrousness, but how exactly did it come through here? It'd be useful to learn keep it under wraps, after all.

You ruined it :<

[Dutcher]

He's just doing what he thinks is best for Equestria, even if he has to make a mountain of corpses to do it

He's a stupid, insufferable tool who never looked far-enough ahead to understand where everything was going, despite placing himself such that only he ever could actually see where everything is going.

Man, I never expected there to be this much hatred towards Goldie...I always liked him and thought he was a good guy stuck with a crappy position full of bad or worse choices.

Even the "good" things he did were despicable.  Like protecting Fluttershy from the megaspell ordeal. Protecting Rarity's work with the black book. Every last one of the projects. Removing Twilight's memories of her greatest achievement and hope for the future. Discord's imprisonment. Everything he ever did.
He wasn't personally responsible for everything, but he was a lynch pin in a ton.

Wasn't it hinted that the EoS communicated with him and made him do things?
Sorry for double.

[Silver136]

It was never ordered. Psalm was eavesdropping on Goldie and Luna talking about Celestia going to the peace meeting, and heard him say Celestial couldn't he captured. His words were something along the lines of, "Better Celestia a martyr than a prisoner." Psalms actions were all her own, just warped by what she shouldn't have heard in the first place.

[Thoroar]

What if one of the ministry mare were murdered instead? Could the war have continued? Would the other ministry mares have given up in grief or worked even harder to set things right?

“Stop standing there and get that confirmed,” Goldenblood snapped at the brown
buck. Then he looked at the yellow escort. “Luna’s been informed?”
The stallion nodded. “She’s asking for a temporary replacement until Applejack’s
status is confirmed.”
“There is no replacement for Applejack! I need all six of them,” Goldenblood said
sharply. . .

[...]


“Cool,” Horse grinned as they stepped into the elevator together. “Hope Applejack
is okay, though. She is one cool mare.”
“You better hope so as well. If she really is dead, I’ll have to find out who is responsible
and remove them just to be safe. Odds are I’ll have to include you as well,” he
said grimly. Horse’s smile disappeared. The world swirled away.

oooOOOooo

[Dutcher]

It was never ordered. Psalm was eavesdropping on Goldie and Luna talking about Celestia going to the peace meeting, and heard him say Celestial couldn't he captured. His words were something along the lines of, "Better Celestia a martyr than a prisoner." Psalms actions were all her own, just warped by what she shouldn't have heard in the first place.

Still find it hard to believe that Psalm will take such an action without anyone at least telling her that this is the last resort.
I guess i just cant see her character in that way.

[Silver136]

She learned from Goldenblood. Sometimes decisions are hard, and the better decision is even harder. I don't really find it all that surprising really. Her loyalties lie with Luna; Celestia was the sister who never knew nor cared about her, and who stepped down as leader in a time of need.

[Derpmind]

I don't remember where to find it, but wasn't there a memory orb of Goldenblood outright murdering some civilian in those underground zebra ruins?

[Silver136]

"The three most important things are love, loyalty, and secrets." 
Yeah she'd been eavesdropping on him and Rarity so he threw her down the elevator shaft.

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