Re: The True Story of Shadow Kicker (and other Winningverse speculation)

[O. Hinds]

I've just finished reading the third chapter of The Freeport Venture, swicked, and Sunset seems to be starting to develop. There's also another character you might be interested in, though I can't, of course, be sure.

[O. Hinds]

Rising Shadows 9:

[O. Hinds]

Manehattan Crisis II::

[Forevermore]

Comments on Manehatten Crisis II:

Swiftblade's justifications for the war are pretty much the same ones I've postulated on, previously. Not much to say there. They're pretty valid considering his limited knowledge and reasonably biased viewpoint.

Hidden Facts is an intriguing character. I get the vibe that he could have escaped his imprisonment at any time and was playing along to win the rebels' trust. His capacity for violence was somewhat shocking, easily the most brutal act we've seen (sans the Clipping) and his nonchalance about the whole thing is quite chilling. He reminds me a great deal of R'as al Ghul.

More Swiftblade characterization is always good. To me, he comes across as having a rather massive inferiority complex as a result of the pegasi's almost race-wide superiority complex. It's clear he doesn't care for his fellow ephors but still espouses the belief that the pegasi are innately better than the other tribes and therefore suited to rule.

Skilled is an interesting potential character. I have a feeling she's going to change sides at some point, possibly leading some of the rebels with her and changing the balance of the war.

[O. Hinds]

Things in the Phoenix Empire universe seem to be escalating quickly as of the most recent chapter of Tales.

[O. Hinds]

Rising Shadows 10:

[Valikdu]

...I wonder why Robored, Valikdu and the others that read these stories haven't posted.

I haven't actually read the story until now.
At the time the above was posted, I'd only had read the first ever WV story (where Cloud Kicker is a half-joke character with a Gamer Poop reference) at that time.
I wanted to wait until The Life And Times... was done; then I changed that to The Lunar Rebellion; then it was taking too long and I've started reading.

I'm only halfway through the first 'season' (and nowhere near that with the comment sections; I'll certainly read those, they seem interesting).

I wonder if Chengar had said anything about the "unreliable narrator" thing.

[Valikdu]

Why, why do people out of universe reading this see Shadow as a hero?

I dunno. Why do people love Littlepip?

Most readers (watchers, players...) simply won't look beyond the surface depth of anything.

[O. Hinds]

swicked, I'm afraid you probably wouldn't like the new guest chapter of Tales from the Phoenix Empire; it's very shippy.

[O. Hinds]

On the new interlude:

[RoboRed]

Welp, finally caught up on all the Winningverse stuff, so I can finally look at this thread again.

Here's what I posted on the most recent chapter:

Spoiler:

And honestly, I am pretty damn broken up about what happened. I mean, goddamn...there was a light on the horizon right there! There was the slightest glimmer of hope that this whole mess would end. Despite that assassin screwing up the exchange, Shadow convinced Lance that she was on the straight and narrow. And all because of a fucking ACCIDENT from Shadow's move to peacefully defuse the confrontation before it could begin, Lance is dead. Lance is dead because she accidentally ingested some fucking magical superglue.

And now, consequences will never be the same. God. Damnit. This didn't have to happen...

On the flip side of things, 1) I am absolutely dying to see Shadow's reaction (and Celestia's) when she finds out what happened, much less how. And 2) the cynical part of me agrees with this guy's post at the end.

...I wonder why Robored, Valikdu and the others that read these stories haven't posted.

I just realized that I never addressed this post. My bad.
I don't entirely follow with your theories about Shadow, and I generally don't think that deeply about this sort of stuff. However, yours and Hinds's posts are very entertaining to read and are well thought out. It's fun to read from a devil's advocate point of view as well.

In other news, regarding this post I first made in the thread from way back when:

spoilers if you don't follow the study of a winning pony:

Things just got very interesting. And it's been two months since an update from that story and I REALLY want to find out what happens next.

[O. Hinds]

I enjoyed the latest chapter of The Freeport Venture, but it didn't give me any ideas for things to say here. Well, besides this, I mean.

[RoboRed]

Sunset's path is just beginning. That's what I have to say.

[O. Hinds]

Rising Shadows 11 Comments:

[RoboRed]

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

Oh, but Shadow needs to make it clear that she was being friendly with Lance here.  It's very important that there be no hint she bore the other mare any animosity and was even willing to work for peace with her.  Read on...
Oh, and she also doesn't want to present herself as a fanatic for Celestia. It's just that Celestia is the proper (and legally removed from office) ruler of Pegasopolis.

[O. Hinds]

But this is something Shadow thought.  And she can say whatever she likes about what she thinks with no one able to contradict.  She's made little inconsistencies before, remember.  If this bit seems a bit off...  Well, again.  Shadow is trying to seem reasonable.  She's trying to seem like peace is just around the corner, like she and Lance are getting along splendidly.  She's still sure that the rebels are wrong, of course, but maybe her side is too?  And this can be ended without further bloodshed?  I found it odd at the time too.  When I read the next chapter, though, the interlude, it made sense to me, and I think that Shadow is back on form in 11.

re Gale: Those are possibilities.  There are also possibly funds we don't see, proceeds from earlier endeavors (Gale running foreign organised crime?).

...Alternatively, her contacts don't stretch that far, and these unexplained contacts are a cover for the fact that Shadow and Sunbeam are sharing a lot more intelligence than they're letting on.  Though Gale must still have something, since I doubt the two sides of the conspiracy, even if they have reasonable trust for each other eventually, have such now.  For good reasons, since Sunbeam is a potential threat to Celestia and Shadow is a potential threat to a unified, streamlined, stronger Equestria.

edit:
I consider conversations at which Celestia was present to be the most reliable, events provided to us in at least ostensibly independent sources next, events in Shadows work that other reputable ponies were there for and might have contradicted after that, then things that were only between Shadow, Gale, and/or Sunbeam, and lastly, not guaranteed to contain any facts at all, things Shadow says she thought. In some places it's seemed to me like she's actively using her retroactively recorded thoughts to put different spins on her actions and words.

[O. Hinds]

Right. The inconsistencies just seem to wash out.

And here, well... she is being fanatical for Celestia, in a way. Celestia likes Lance. Celestia tells Shadow to protect Lance and try and work with her. Shadow takes a stand for Celestia against Sunbeam, who says that Lance is too much of a threat and ought to be eliminated. Shadow listens to Lance and agrees with her on a lot of points. Isn't Shadow getting along splendidly with Lance and working towards a peaceful resolution of the war, just like Celestia wants, to the point where she wonders if Lance might have some good insight on Celestia herself?

I'm looking forward to your reaction to the next chapter. :)

[RoboRed]

I'm looking forward to your reaction to the next chapter.  :)

[Forevermore]

after she purposely threw glue into Lance's mouth.

I'm still of the opinion that Lance's death was totally arbitrary. It makes for a better narrative to have a plot important person die of random causes and completely screw over everyone's plans. It happens often enough in real life but you almost never see it in fiction.

A surprise attack, close-quarters combat, an entire culture of masterfully-skilled warriors against a city of fat, rich nobles and a heavily-reduced supply of magi.
And the pegasi will lose, because master race

Going to have to disagree with you there. We've established that Canterlot is a killing ground. The pegasi don't seem to have any siege weapons or diversified regiments to bring through the tunnels (Sunbeam's legionnaires from the AU for example). They have different types of aerial infantry and basically nothing else. Bright's "tactics" here are fundamentally a mass attack against a fortified position and any general ever will tell you how suicidal that is. It's not surprising at all that they lose.

[O. Hinds]

Glue prepared by Sunbeam, no less, so who knows what special enchantments might have been on it. And Shadow was careful to leave it on for a little bit before freeing Lance. And it has to have been an accident! Because untrustworthy Sunbeam wasn't there, and trustworthy Shadow was getting along well with Lance. Yeah.
Like I said, 10 struck me as off too... and then I read the next one.

Also, I'm increasingly convinced that either Chengar Qordath is deliberately playing with us or that we're actually at least more or less correct, because... come on. That accident? Coming when and how it did, and on top of everything else?

I'm still of the opinion that Lance's death was totally arbitrary. It makes for a better narrative to have a plot important person die of random causes and completely screw over everyone's plans. It happens often enough in real life but you almost never see it in fiction.

Well, sure, it could have happened that way. There are a lot of things in this story that could have just been bad luck, or minor inconsistencies in Shadow's memory, or transcription mistakes when the writing was being copied, or Shadow genuinely having done something dumb... etc. A lot of things like that. But while once may be an accident and twice coincidence, three times may very well be enemy action.

Going to have to disagree with you there. We've established that Canterlot is a killing ground. The pegasi don't seem to have any siege weapons or diversified regiments to bring through the tunnels (Sunbeam's legionnaires from the AU for example). They have different types of aerial infantry and basically nothing else. Bright's "tactics" here are fundamentally a mass attack against a fortified position and any general ever will tell you how suicidal that is. It's not surprising at all that they lose.

Yep. Almost as if Bright is rushing in with emotionally compromised judgement. A predictable result of losing her daughter like that.

[Forevermore]

What's the shield Sunbeam's maintaining again? Something that incinerates or whatever?
I just figure the pegasi could ride down through the torrent of rain with lighting bolts. Their siege weapons are lighting itself. Heck, they could even just drop crap. Tar, oil, whatever. Not entire sure why they don't. It would be exhausting hauling all that stuff up there but they could use thunderforged sleds on the back of clouds or something.

Sunbeam's shield incinerates everything that isn't water or air. Anything solid trying to go through it would be dead. Tar and oil wouldn't work because of the rain. They'd need something to bring down the walls of Canterlot and hammer through the shield, exhausting the magical reserves that keep it sustained. My own strategy would be to use trebuchets to hammer the shield with rocks. We're on a mountain so I think it likely that they'd run out of magic before I ran out of rocks. At the same time, I'd use probing forces to harass tunnel defenders, probably use smoke to poison the defenders between strikes. I'm pretty sure the pegasi could create vacuums to suck the smoke out of the tunnels, clearing the way for forces to move in.

do they really use the tunnels?
The idea of the tunnels was to sneak into the shield from below. Bright wants a full frontal assault, sudden and without giving the unicorns a chance to respond.

Spoiler:

I'm wondering if this isn't a bit of fudging on Shadow's part. So far, the pegasi don't live up to their reputation and. . . kind of suck. Their only major victories were against a civilian population in a surprise attack (Manehatten) and the Canterlot field army was only crushed because of a third party (Nightmare cultists). They were humiliated in their first full confrontation with Loyalist forces, their supply lines destroyed and their commander captured. Their greatest warrior died without any significant victories (Copper Spark's duel was ultimately inconsequential seeing as the Loyalists' had already lost that battle). I'm just not seeing this "great warrior race" image they're trying to project.

If Shadow's deliberately making herself look more skilled than her opponents it makes more sense. Downplay the rebels' intelligence and ability so her seizing power looks more justified.

[O. Hinds]

Rising Shadows 12 Comments:

[RoboRed]

Spoiler:

[Forevermore]

Here's hoping Gale finally offs her "love interest".

Considering he's the author of several interludes, I don't think it's likely. I think he's going to be the one who leads the exiled pegasi to Freeport (fairly certain it exists at this point, just not anywhere near it's modern level).

I'd hate for Bright to die without the knowledge her line has ended, too :D

Doesn't Bright have like twelve children? We've got Lance, Dusk, that doctor whose name escapes me, and somebody's mentioned at least a couple more in-story.

[Valikdu]

You know what I'd like?
I want Shadow to inadvertenly do something horrible. Something so bad that even her obsession with Celestia wouldn't let her rationalize it away. Something that would break her.

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

You know what I'd like?
I want Shadow to inadvertenly do something horrible. Something so bad that even her obsession with Celestia wouldn't let her rationalize it away. Something that would break her.

Spoiler:

Well, based on what we've heard of Shadow from and in the future, it looks like either that doesn't happen or she's very good at hiding it.

[O. Hinds]

...Hm, yes, now that you mention it, interesting. Though... Looking at it, she doesn't say that she finds gold more powerful. That's implied, certainly, but what she actually says is "reliable". In other words, her view might be something like "A pony motivated by patriotism might fight to the death... or they might not. Even ponies who think normally get it wrong sometimes; just look the majority of Clan Kicker betraying Pegasopolis. Gold, on the other hoof, might not buy as much loyalty, but it's easier to predict just when that loyalty will fail and to plan accordingly. And if the prediction is wrong, it's more likely to be overbuilt rather than underbuilt; ponies are much more likely to try and make themselves seem more loyal than they really are than to try and make themselves seem more greedy than they really are."

[O. Hinds]

Eh, it is a bit odd, yes, but I think it does make some sense.

[O. Hinds]

Well, Shadow was the only one there, and even if it was just an accident, it was still something Shadow did. And Celestia would not be wanting to believe that it wasn't an accident. Because that would mean that a: she can be fooled to such a great degree and b: Shadow is a much worse and different pony than she thought. Hm. Actually, now that I think of it, this might be part of the reason why Shadow went right up to Lance. She might have been able to weasel out of it, yes, and Celestia was probably just referring to the "accident"... but Celestia cannot be allowed to even harbor significant suspicions. And this would also help explain why Shadow didn't have a better plan for dealing with Lance: she and Sunbeam had difficulty predicting the Princess Sense. This making sense, you think?

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