Re: The True Story of Shadow Kicker (and other Winningverse speculation)

[O. Hinds]

1. Unicorns value blood and magic runs in blood. Like it or not, she probably felt a child biologically hers would have a leg-up on both status and magic. A not unreasonable assumption. If that had failed, I'd wager she would have adopted.

I thought that Sunbeam didn't care about such things.  Eh, though, I suppose that others would, and she'd realize that.  Even if Midnight was seen as a bastard, she'd be the daughter of one of the most powerful and dangerous mages in recent history.

And yes, that notable guy/girl I've never heard of. Certainly.

Oh, another notable Winningverse author.  Probably the only thing of theirs that you (might) have read is The Incredibly Valuable Contract of a Sellsword Changeling.

[O. Hinds]

Ah, okay.

[O. Hinds]

I did/do think that it was unintentional, yes.  It's just hard to believe that there'd be such a great deception here... though it would be kind of magnificent if it was true.

[Forevermore]

Midnight Rook sums up the Manehatten situation pretty well. His full comment is on the story.

The "issues that led to the war", weren't what really lead to the war. For a hundred years, the Ephorate was able to enjoy being the de facto rulers of the pegasi, paying only lip service to Commander Celestia. When Celestia started moving towards changing this, and taking on some of the duties and responsibilities of her position again, she threatened their power. As a result, when they saw an opportunity to get her out of the way, they took it. Until now, despite being allied, the three tribes have maintained policies of isolationism and self-governance, but having successfully removed Commander Celestia from Pegasopolis, the Ephors got greedy. The pegasi had no stake in the Manehattan election, but it gave the Ephors an opportunity to expand their own power and influence.

[O. Hinds]

I have a slightly different memory of the system of government of Pegasopolis, but yeah.

"For a hundred years, the Ephorate was able to enjoy being the de facto rulers of the pegasi"
And being the de jure rulers of the pegasi.

"paying only lip service to Commander Celestia"
By continually sending their actions to her to approval.

"When Celestia started moving towards changing this, and taking on some of the duties and responsibilities of her position again, she threatened their power."
Maybe, but I'm more inclined to believe that their offense was because, instead of showing up and acting like a Commander, she showed up with a bunch of snooty unicorns and had them start invasively and rudely investigating the pegasi for mutilating their own children and covering it up.

And as for the intervention in the affairs of the earth ponies, it's an intervention in a civil war and, based on the interlude showing the actions of the pegasi in Manehattan, a genuine peacekeeping mission. If they are trying to expand their own power and influence, they appear to be taking the sensible course of protecting people and doing things to become well-liked.

[Forevermore]

The Ephorate, in addition, weren't really the rulers of the people. The old ponies (genosha? I don't recall) would vote on issues and send the results to commander Celestia, who would then ratify them almost every time. That was the primary system of governance.

In actual practice, not quite. The gerousia seem to have more in common with the U.S. Supreme Court than they do the Spartan council with which they share their name. Their main role seems to be safeguarding the traditions and culture of Pegasopolis, and making sure the ephorate's actions do not contradict such. The actual lawmaking and law enforcing powers seem to lie with the ephorate when put into actual practice.

By continually sending their actions to her to approval.

You'll recall that this practice was almost entirely ceremonial. The ephorate had a legal obligation to get approval from the current commander, but it was established early on by Shadow that they had long since given it any significance. For a hundred years, Celestia had been a figurehead content to merely offer suggestions regarding intended actions. Her authority existed only in name and was more the result of tradition.

You'll recall also that the ephorate tended to act entirely on their own authority and get Celestia's approval either after or during. This is what happened with the griffons. The ephorate were confident that Celestia would simply nod her head and approve their actions, as she had been doing for a hundred years. They were upset when she actually decided to exercise her authority, believing themselves to already be firmly established as the real leaders of Pegasopolis while she was almost entirely ceremonial.

And as for the intervention in the affairs of the earth ponies, it's an intervention in a civil war and, based on the interlude showing the actions of the pegasi in Manehattan, a genuine peacekeeping mission. If they are trying to expand their own power and influence, they appear to be taking the sensible course of protecting people and doing things to become well-liked.

That they're in a civil war only detracts from their position, not strengthens it. You'll recall that the ephorate were the ones to declare war, based on a baseless accusation from within a foreign country over an isolated incident involving individuals with no ties to the pegasi. It was established in the interlude that Appletree had been meeting with the ephorate, but had not committed to them. He was not an official ally and thus not under any legal obligation from the pegasi to protect or avenge him and his interests. The ephorate used his death as a catalyst to condemn Celestia and declare war, but had no basis for doing so. Their were accusations, certainly, of Celestia having ordered his assassination but no evidence to prove it. Their main justification was the forging of ballots, something both sides were established as guilty of, and again something that could not be proven to be tied to Celestia.

Let's also recall that the pegasi were upset over the clippings investigation because they viewed it as a foreign nation unlawfully entering their domain and exercising authority. This is exactly what the pegasi are doing in Manehatten, with more success, making them hypocrites. They've also gone a step further, replacing the earth pony government and police with their own military.

You're also forgetting that, though the pegasi have proven benevolent conquerors, they are nonetheless conquerors. Their official doctrine is "surrender or be conquered." In other words, they can and will kill you for resisting. This is not a good basis for establishing long-term control, as we'll see later in the war. The earth ponies are primarily not resisting because they know they realistically can't. Accepting someone's rule because the alternative is death and/or imprisonment is not an indication that that rule is wanted. Silence should not be taken as consent. This was established in the interlude, as it was stated most earth ponies were keeping to themselves and doing their best to ignore that the pegasi were even there.

[O. Hinds]

You'll recall that this practice was almost entirely ceremonial. The ephorate had a legal obligation to get approval from the current commander, but it was established early on by Shadow that they had long since given it any significance. For a hundred years, Celestia had been a figurehead content to merely offer suggestions regarding intended actions. Her authority existed only in name and was more the result of tradition.

The thing is, Celestia wasn't exactly having her orders ignored or warped, was she? She couldn't have been, since she wasn't issuing any. She was happily being a rubber stamp; this was the way she wanted the system to work, and the Ephorate was happily going along with it.

You'll recall also that the ephorate tended to act entirely on their own authority and get Celestia's approval either after or during.

It was the Ephorate's job to take care of minor matters without bothering the Commander with them, and Celestia seemed happy to outsource major matters too. And without rapid communication, Celestia's subordinates, particularly her military subordinates, often would have to act primarily on their own authority; this is in the laws of Pegasopolis, if you'll recall.

This is what happened with the griffons. The ephorate were confident that Celestia would simply nod her head and approve their actions, as she had been doing for a hundred years. They were upset when she actually decided to exercise her authority, believing themselves to already be firmly established as the real leaders of Pegasopolis while she was almost entirely ceremonial.

Yes, they were upset that Celestia disapproved of them taking action to defend civilians.

That they're in a civil war only detracts from their position, not strengthens it. You'll recall that the ephorate were the ones to declare war, based on a baseless accusation from within a foreign country over an isolated incident involving individuals with no ties to the pegasi. It was established in the interlude that Appletree had been meeting with the ephorate, but had not committed to them. He was not an official ally and thus not under any legal obligation from the pegasi to protect or avenge him and his interests. The ephorate used his death as a catalyst to condemn Celestia and declare war, but had no basis for doing so. Their were accusations, certainly, of Celestia having ordered his assassination but no evidence to prove it. Their main justification was the forging of ballots, something both sides were established as guilty of, and again something that could not be proven to be tied to Celestia.

Are the pegasi completely uninterested in the power and influence that a friendly earth pony government would provide? I doubt it. However, I would like to point out, again, that ponies were suffering and dying in the war. Most of them uninterested in it or even in the election. We've seen that the pegasi occupying Manehattan are far from a brutal martial crackdown; they even demand fair treatment of their potential enemies. Is it really so hard to believe that one of Pegasopolis's major motivations was helping people?

Let's also recall that the pegasi were upset over the clippings investigation because they viewed it as a foreign nation unlawfully entering their domain and exercising authority. This is exactly what the pegasi are doing in Manehatten, with more success, making them hypocrites.

Um, no, it isn't. Pretty much zero pegasi, including Swiftwing, IIRC, wanted the investigation done like that. A very large number of earth ponies support Pegasopolis.

They've also gone a step further, replacing the earth pony government and police with their own military.

Given that the last election started the war, the middle of the war is no time to hold another one. The military government is meant to be temporary. Now, granted, maybe it would have become truly unjust later, sticking around after the war, but maybe the Ephorate would have demonstrated the integrity they've been showing so far. Since we don't know what would have happened at that point in the future, due to the rebels losing the war, I don't think that it can be used in this argument.

You're also forgetting that, though the pegasi have proven benevolent conquerors, they are nonetheless conquerors. Their official doctrine is "surrender or be conquered." In other words, they can and will kill you for resisting. This is not a good basis for establishing long-term control, as we'll see later in the war. The earth ponies are primarily not resisting because they know they realistically can't. Accepting someone's rule because the alternative is death and/or imprisonment is not an indication that that rule is wanted. Silence should not be taken as consent. This was established in the interlude, as it was stated most earth ponies were keeping to themselves and doing their best to ignore that the pegasi were even there.

Um. Okay. Let's lay out the options here.
1: Pegasopolis. Yes, they've put in a military government. Yes, maybe they're lying about standing for traditional earth pony democracy and freedoms. However, maybe they're not, and they have at least been ruling pretty well in the meantime (I'll point out, for instance, that most of the earth ponies in the occupied areas can just ignore the pegasi; there's no deliberate grinding of the iron horseshoe just because).
2: Unicornia. At best, the status quo, more or less. At worst, the dissolution of the earth pony government and its annexation by a foreign imperial power. Now, this is roughly the same situation as that of Pegasopolis, but there's the difference that Unicornia hasn't said that it's in support of traditional earth pony government. Indeed, a prominent member of the government, who is still in power, is already highly disliked and (though this may not yet be generally known) wants to take down the earth pony government.
3: Continue the civil war without outside interference. Pro: no risk of foreign domination. Cons: a long, bloody fight with an unclear end no matter who wins, and also possibly no major foreign support.

[Forevermore]

You seem convinced that a foreign nation seizing control of its neighbors through force of arms because of internal problems is a good thing. It's not, and further discussion is pointless if you can't realize this.

[O. Hinds]

Is it always a good thing? Certainly not. But you seem convinced that it can't be a good thing, or even just the best of the available options.

[O. Hinds]

Oh, and do you honestly think that Unicornia wouldn't have invaded if Pegasopolis hadn't moved first?

[O. Hinds]

A new Tales From the Phoenix Empire chapter is out!:

[RoboRed]

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

And I missed this one earlier, sorry:

[O. Hinds]

So, is Trixie around the same age as Twilight?

I believe so.

Also, I didn't take the Sparkle house to mean they descended from Sunbeam.
Sunbeam, even if she didn't have siblings, might have had cousins. Present day Sparkles might just be nieces and nephews of some order to the Empress.

I thought that they were descended via Midnight?

[O. Hinds]

By the way, here's a nice little trio of paragraphs from The Incredibly Conflicted Mind of Pinkie Pie:

The aesthetics of the Kicker graveyard have been described before in other stories, but I think that those three paragraphs are a pretty good and succinct summary.

[O. Hinds]

The new Tales from the Phoenix Empire chapter was good, I though, but I'm not sure that there's much for us to discuss here. Not that I have any objection, of course; I just can't think of anything at the moment.
It does seem to confirm my memory of Twilight being a descendant of Midnight, though (which was just part of one atmospheric line, hence why I'm not putting it in a spoiler).

[RoboRed]

I momentarily forgot that "Miss Sparkle" referred to Amethyst at the beginning.

[Forevermore]

It's very obvious in this chapter that Shadow's battle strategy takes honor before reason way too seriously. She stopped in the middle of a relatively covert operation to give a rousing speech. Just, no. Bad Shadow, no general for you!

Personally, I really dislike Lance Charger. She's a Mary Sue out of nowhere that completely curb-stomped Copper Spark, an established character who was reputed to be incredibly powerful. Now she's no selling a direct attack from Sunbeam herself. What the hell? What's the explanation behind this? Why is Lance invincible?

My current theory is that she's the eventual avatar for Nightmare Moon and has been prepped by cultists with spells to prepare her for it. Similar to how Mayor Wilkins in Buffy the Vampire Slayer became invincible shortly before his ascension.

Sunbeam's love of carnage was fun to read, and honestly only makes me like the character more. That said, I facepalmed when she jumped the gun at the end. Shadow's plan to take advantage of the pegasi's "honor before reason" approach to warfare was a genuine stroke of strategic brilliance. Know your enemy.

Last thing: I LOVE the heat shield around Canterlot. I thought we were going to see the same shield Shining Armor used, but Sunbeam's obvious influence was just too much. Although now that Celestia's taking over the shield, I think it's about to turn into a pansy shell. Damn it, Celestia! Stop interfering with the things that aren't broken.

[O. Hinds]

I'm low on sleep and in a hurry at the moment, so I apologize if this is less coherent than usual.

Rising Shadows 6:

[RoboRed]

Re: Lance Charger: If memory serves, Rainbow Dash is descended from the Chargers. Perhaps this could be related to Lance's sudden importance?

Just a random, "out there" thought.

[O. Hinds]

Hm. I don't recall that, but you might be right.

[O. Hinds]

Hm. I don't recall noticing that. She has spent over eight centuries as an alicorn, though.

[O. Hinds]

Hm. Well, would Rarity really have responded better to the same tactics Sunbeam used with Sunset?

[O. Hinds]

Well, I don't know, I'm afraid.
Maybe she just likes Rarity?

[O. Hinds]

I don't really have much commentary on Rising Shadows 7, I'm afraid; I'm low on sleep and was reading quickly due to an engagement later today.

[RoboRed]

Same, except to state the obvious: Lance is pretty damn resilient.

[O. Hinds]

Huh.
I wonder if the modern-day kicker homestead was fashioned from the ancient one, given it is now so much nearer.

What do you mean? Oh, actually, you might not know this: the Kicker compound is that red stone fortress in Canterlot that Shadow's having worked on now.

...what time of day do you all want?
Celestia can just stop things for a few hours if it will save her people.

Hm, maybe, but that carries a big risk of losing the element of surprise. The rebels might not know what's going on, but they'd know that something was happening.

Your blades are as butter, your armor as wax. My flames will consume, they've no grander task.

Sunbeam: Shadow, honor is a shackle. I was not raised in honor. I was not treated with honor. I did not decide to elevate myself for honor. I did not rise through the ranks of magus with honor. I did not become Celestia's vizier in honor. She did not keep me in honor. If I lost my post for honor, I did not regain it once more in honor. You adore honor so because you were all but born into it. Kept in it. Raised in it and made ephor in it. You left Pegasopolis for it and now ride here, with me, for it.
It's all well and good that you adore honor so, followed by your clan not for love, respect or ability but because it is "right". That they would forgo the trappings of desire and emotion to blindly follow your lead like puppets. It is impressive.
My compatriots follow me for my ability. My capacity and drive. My fame and infamy. You? For all your experience, you are no better than Polaris. You merely stand on the shoulders of your clan and imagine yourself tall.

:)

She literally made Shadow's blade incapable of cutting her, and no one else. It could not possibly have been more obvious she would only use them in self-defense.

And if Sunbeam wanted to kill Shadow, why would she be stupid enough to do it on Shadow's terms, in a way that gives Shadow a chance to respond through combat?

[O. Hinds]

I thought you said the kickers stayed in a cloud over canterlot.
I imagined, after the war, the kickers might have broken off their old cloud homestead before kicking apart the rest of pegasopolis. They could have then used that for their little cloud temple.

No, as far as I know, the compound doesn't feature any cloud structures at all. I'm not sure what you're remembering; sorry.

Also: I wish someone would go back and count every time Shadow has said something along the lines of "It is easy to say I /Kickers will/could fight Pegasopolis warriors, but another matter entirely to do so."

It feels like it's approaching infinity. The words have stopped holding meaning to me.

Hm. Could that be the point? To see it so often that one stops examining it?

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