Re: The True Story of Shadow Kicker (and other Winningverse speculation)

[O. Hinds]

You think it natural for a historian to have been part of a nearly-averted fight to the death in the modern day and age of the Winningverse? I guess I just figured that world was a bit less brutal.

Oh, you don't think that these notes are from Cloud Kicker?

...uh, I never really thought about it?
I've still never read a single fic in which she was a character.

Ah. Well, I'm pretty sure that it's Cloud, and she was indeed nearly in a last stand in The Life and Times of a Winning Pony.

[O. Hinds]

(Disclaimer: I got very little sleep.)
Hm. The trouble is, while your strategy is more sound on a purely military basis, it's ignoring the political/diplomatic/propagandic/whatever angle. One of the major arguments of the earth pony separatists is that Unicornia is far away and uncaring. What message would it send to have Unicornia withhold its own forces and use mercenaries and local earth ponies to do its fighting for it? How long before those earth ponies start thinking (possibly with the aid of rebel information warfare) "Okay, so if I stay with the Loyalists, I get to face the enemy, one of the finest military machines in the world, all alone except for my militia friends, who'd I'd have anyway, and a few mercenaries. While the people I'm fighting for sit back in their luxurious city and have tea. If I were to side with the rebels, I'd be fighting for freedom from the Loyalists and alongside said military machine. Hm…"

The Loyalists are not in a very good position. Your strategy is definitely better for winning battles, both near and long term, but it risks losing the war before the long term comes into play. Spear and Polaris are quite right that Unicornia almost certainly needs to be seen fighting if it wants to win; if the earth ponies became sufficiently on the side of the rebels, a: Unicornia would lose them to the rebels as an asset and b: this would cease to have the atmosphere of a civil war and fully take on the atmosphere of a war of conquest waged on foreign nations by Unicornia, which would increase the moral or the rebels and decrease that of many of the Loyalists.

Oh, and on the same token, the loss of an archmage would be the loss of a great military asset, but it would also show that Unicornia was fully in this. And make many of the Loyalist troops less likely to stop fighting early. "Did X die so we could give up?!"

[O. Hinds]

Then I should hope they'd combine the two. Employing local militia will give them a better grasp of the land, increased security for their high-value troops and lots of guaranteed witnesses to the valor of the magi.
Plus, again, mercenaries. Because they need trained troops right now really, really badly.

Ah, yes, I can't find any valid argument against a combination of the two.  There'd be some political losses from the mercenaries, but they'd be outweighed by the benefits.  There might even possibly be political gain for employing militia along with Unicornian forces.

Cloud, I have taken my measure of Sunbeam, and I could hardly be more certain you are wrong. She just never "got caught".
She doesn't let honor or morality get in her way, so why would she hold fast for justice? It's yet another opinionated thing. The legal system is built on the precedent of the whim of judges and juries (assuming their legal system works like ours). If she disagreed with a law, or needed to do something to secure the empire and the fastest, most assured way of accomplishing it was to break a law, she would. In a heartbeat.
I mean, what do you call carving explosive runes into a child, anyway? She got permission from Celestia first, but the law wasn't changed. Sunbeam still broke a law, there, she was just quietly exonerated.

Yes, people do seem to continuously misjudge Sunbeam.  I mean, Cloud even says what you did without realizing it: "by all accounts".

This will not end well...
There is absolutely no way Sunbeam didn't expect Shadow to have the armor and weapon inspected before she'd use it. She no doubt left some of her enchantments on the armor just because she knew Shadow would expect them to be there. Sunbeam should know the only unicorn Shadow trusts is Copper, and should be aware of Copper since he was intentionally trying to help broker an alliance between Shadow and Sunbeam.
So yeah, unless Sunbeam is entirely incompetent (and she isn't), she expected all of this, and has a counter-move already in place.

I at first thought that Morning Star was directly one of Sunbeam's ponies, but that became increasingly improbable as the conversation went on.  The more she was lying about, the more in which Shadow might find a hole to being the edifice tumbling down.  I now don't know what Sunbeam's plan here is, but I agree that she must have one.

This is absurd.
I hope Celestia will at least be willing to put up shields and cast other magic to help protect her capital.

…Yeah, huh.  Why didn't they mention Celestia?

I didn't say this in my last review, but I've been getting the strangest Han Solo vibe from this guy. And yes, a Princess Leah one from Shadow.
You don't have to tell me how messed up that is.

:D

I was about to ask why she didn't compare this to the way Cyclone looked at her when she turned traitor to her own people, but then I remembered that she's only ever referring to her dead father when says "my father", since she has stated Cyclone is her father no longer.

Or it could by Cyclone, her father, who "died".  The Cyclone who looked at her when she was turning traitor displaying her great loyalty and leaving the traitors behind was a different one, remember.

Now THAT'S the Shadow we know and love! Hate! Some combination of the two!

:D

I've a bit of a pet peeve when it's said someone was trained from birth in anything whatsoever. They were trained from their youth, or were raised in the way of a warrior. Nobody trains infants.

Offtopic: Oh, I may have said that about the Miliozi a few times.  Sorry.  Though, then again, I'm not entirely certain that they don't at least try to train infants, so… eh.

I'm not sure about that, to be honest. It's not what I would do.
I would send the vast majority of my fast-moving air force to hunt down every pocket of Polaris' resistance and crush them. They have vastly superior numbers and illusions can only get you so far once you're surrounded by air and ground troops.
It sounds like Polaris has devoted the vast majority of their mages for this risky stalling tactic, too. Killing every last one of those could be a death blow to Canterlot's defenses right off the bat.
Or, heck, they could take the mages and archmages captive and use them to sue for peace. Break off their horns (in Phoenix Empress, in prison, Sunbeam remarks that they can grow back) and the magi will be defenseless. With these leaders of Equestria (maybe even including Polaris himself) in custody, terms might be easy to secure, with the threat that the pegasi would otherwise kill the mages and take a city with almost no magic left to protect it.

Ooh, good ideas!  And they might actually do that, too.  I don't think that the rebels are nearly so fixated on Canterlot as the Loyalists seem to believe.  We know that it was besieged eventually, but we also know, IIRC, that a: a lot of magi died in the war and b: Polaris was no longer in command by the end of it.

Sidenote, I've been trying to think of strategies that would make pegasi's ability to fly work against them without hampering earth pony ground forces. The best I've come up with is oil/grease fires. If the day wasn't terribly windy they could set a barrel of oil alight and it would fill the air with thick, terrible smoke, quickly expanding the higher it sent. It would only work in pitched battles in open terrain, but that's exactly the type of fight the earth forces would need an upper hand. Otherwise, keeping battles to arenas that have ceilings (like forests) would be the preferred strategy. It wouldn't be too hard to set up pegasi traps in the form of webs of wire (possibly rendered invisible) between trees near the loyalist encampments, and I can think of a host of other ways to booby-trap these areas the pegasi could fly that wouldn't hamper those stuck on the ground.

Again nice ideas.

Stalwart's got quite a rosy opinion of his own clan.

I believe that you misunderstood here.  I interpreted that "we" not as "the Kicker clan" but as "pegasi".

...what, do they also train pegasi in thousand-foot stone-dropping?
Because that's way easier said than done, especially against a moving formation.

Why not train in it?  If your enemy has neither flight nor appropriate magic, it would be a _wonderful_ strategy.  I doubt many ranged weapons of the time could hit a flying pegasus at such an altitude from the ground, and many might not even be able to get their projectiles that far up.  The pegasi could attack with impunity using cheap, readily available ammunition.  The primary defense would be to scatter… which would make the enemy much easier prey for diving pegasi or allied ground forces.  And fixed emplacements, or buildings?  They'd better be sufficiently reinforced.  And if the pegasi were to switch to even simple incendiaries…

Now what in the world could that mean?

Enchanted goods, presumably.

Sigh... I still find the idea that they wouldn't hunt down the military leader of the loyalists, favoring instead to lay siege to a highly-defended city, utterly absurd. If a siege was laid on Canterlot, it should simply be to lure Polaris into the open.

Aye.  The thing is, the Loyalists (And I do hope that this strategic blunder is in character rather than on the part of the author; we've a ready-made excuse in that the rebel commanders are also fallible, but still… eh.  It's a foregone conclusion how the war turns out.  Still doesn't mean I'd like seeing the Loyalists win like this.) are making the mistake of treating this as an invasion, and they're thinking that, as the capital, Canterlot is an extremely important objective.  In an invasion, it would be.  This isn't an invasion; it's a nationalist, separatist rebellion.  In the American Revolution, did the colonists try to seize London?  No (though I seem to recall that there was one zealous admiral who wanted to give it a shot).  They didn't need or want it.  All the rebels here have to do is convince the Loyalists that the rebels can hold their homelands against the Loyalists; once that's done, draw a new line on the map and, hey, war over with the rogue Kickers the only pegasi in Canterlot because of it.  Unless they accept that full amnesty the "villains" offer, of course, in which case they can return to the newly but possibly not even permanently independent Cloudsdale.

Shadow, you watch too many soap operas.

:D
Yes, if you want to talk about byzantine thoughts…
"Sunbeam supports him and his parentage isn't commonly known"
->
"HE'S A SECRET NOBLE HEIR AND SHE KNOWS IT AND SHE'S PLANNING TO MARRY HER DAUGHTER TO HIM TO GET EVEN MORE POWER!"

Oh my gosh, that would have been glorious...

((yeah, I just don't see it taking a hundredth of the time to convince Sunbeam to stop messing with Shadow... if she hadn't already come to that conclusion))

:D

I find it funny that Celestia knows about this, though, and still somehow expects Sunbeam to "get better".

Yeah…
It's not really hard to see how Sunbeam got the impression that Celestia was just keeping her own hooves clean while letting Sunbeam do her dirty work for her.  Celestia offers weak, idealistic excuses and makes Sunbeam promise to do better, Sunbeam doesn't understand and see Celestia giving herself plausible deniability.
Celestia: "Well, however much it may have benefitted me to have it done, I did very clearly tell her not to do things like that.  I must just not have been clear enough.  I'm sure that she won't do this again."
Sunbeam: "Note to self: change modus operandi; current methods now politically unwise"

[Forevermore]

Aye.  The thing is, the Loyalists (And I do hope that this strategic blunder is in character rather than on the part of the author; we've a ready-made excuse in that the rebel commanders are also fallible, but still… eh.  It's a foregone conclusion how the war turns out.  Still doesn't mean I'd like seeing the Loyalists win like this.) are making the mistake of treating this as an invasion, and they're thinking that, as the capital, Canterlot is an extremely important objective.  In an invasion, it would be.  This isn't an invasion; it's a nationalist, separatist rebellion.  In the American Revolution, did the colonists try to seize London?  No (though I seem to recall that there was one zealous admiral who wanted to give it a shot).  They didn't need or want it.  All the rebels here have to do is convince the Loyalists that the rebels can hold their homelands against the Loyalists; once that's done, draw a new line on the map and, hey, war over with the rogue Kickers the only pegasi in Canterlot because of it.  Unless they accept that full amnesty the "villains" offer, of course, in which case they can return to the newly but possibly not even permanently independent Cloudsdale.

One major flaw with your argument here is that the American Revolution took place on a separate continent. London was literally thousands of miles away from where any of the fighting took place. It had zero strategic value of any kind and the colonists didn't have remotely the forces or resources to so much as travel there.
Canterlot, on the other hand, is within walking distance of Manehatten. Let's also remember that the rebels war is one of "liberation" from the tyranny of Celestia. She is the symbolic villain they can rally against and her removal from power is one of their primary propagandas. She's also an immortal and can very much just twiddle her hooves for a century or two, safe in her fortress, until all the rebel leaders are dead. There's no "winning" this war without Celestia's imprisonment, death, or exile. For that to happen, they must take Canterlot. If the rebels have any form of intelligence, they're aware that they must take Canterlot at some point if their rebellion is going to have any sort of legitimacy.
I do, however, agree that the taking of Canterlot is very much a late-game strategy and not nearly so prominent in the minds of the Ephorate as many of the Loyalists believe. The rebels will eventually lay siege to Canterlot, they have no other choice, but a smart commander wouldn't do so until every other area of Equestria they are capable of seizing is already under their control.

I at first thought that Morning Star was directly one of Sunbeam's ponies, but that became increasingly improbable as the conversation went on.  The more she was lying about, the more in which Shadow might find a hole to being the edifice tumbling down.  I now don't know what Sunbeam's plan here is, but I agree that she must have one.

I disagree, I think Morning Star and her husband are very much under Sunbeam's control. Politics is all about lying, and the "lie" that Sunbeam places contingency spells within her enchantments is practically Gospel. I would wager that Morning Star has been Sunbeam's accomplice for a very long time, and is very used to performing subtle tasks for her mistress. There is not many holes to be poked in her arguments, as well. It is completely in-character for Sunbeam to place traps within any gesture of good will, and Shadow is just arrogant enough to think that Sunbeam is stupid enough to do that. However, we are all painfully aware that Sunbeam is frighteningly intelligent. I'm convinced that any contingency spells were placed on the armor by Morning Star herself, under Sunbeam's direction.

"HE'S A SECRET NOBLE HEIR AND SHE KNOWS IT AND SHE'S PLANNING TO MARRY HER DAUGHTER TO HIM TO GET EVEN MORE POWER!"

Honestly, when I was at that scene I got the vibe that he was related to First Glance. Cousins, siblings, that kind of thing. To me, Sunbeam's refusal to allow him to duel was because she knew he'd be going in angry and would likely get himself killed. While she's certainly no stranger to death, ponies dying pointlessly seems like the kind of thing that would morally offend Sunbeam's pragmatic nature.
I seriously doubt Sunbeam has any plans to marry Midnight for political gain. Considering she's a single mare herself, she likely doesn't place much stock in marriage alliances. I think she'd be more likely to teach Midnight how to use seduction and affairs to manipulate ponies (much like herself). I could also see it in-character of Sunbeam to allow Midnight to choose her own mate, both as a test of her daughter's ability to see short and long term gain and as one of those mysterious "feelings" she can't understand (letting Midnight marry for love because she wants her daughter to be happy).

[Forevermore]

I'm not sure I understand why Sunbeam would have her subordinate place all the safeguard enchantments instead of ensuring it was done herself, though.

Practicality. Sunbeam would place a few enchantments herself, because it's expected, but she's too obvious a suspect and she knows that anything she enchants would be inspected. Thus, she relies on a trusted subordinate to put the actual enchantments on the item as they would be far less likely to be suspected. Ponies don't seem to be in the habit of double-checking things, so once the item has been inspected and the offending magics removed, nobody would think twice about the inspector placing new ones. It's risky, certainly, but Sunbeam seems the type who would prefer a possible victory over a sure loss.

[O. Hinds]

One major flaw with your argument here is that the American Revolution took place on a separate continent. London was literally thousands of miles away from where any of the fighting took place. It had zero strategic value of any kind and the colonists didn't have remotely the forces or resources to so much as travel there.
Canterlot, on the other hand, is within walking distance of Manehatten. Let's also remember that the rebels war is one of "liberation" from the tyranny of Celestia. She is the symbolic villain they can rally against and her removal from power is one of their primary propagandas. She's also an immortal and can very much just twiddle her hooves for a century or two, safe in her fortress, until all the rebel leaders are dead. There's no "winning" this war without Celestia's imprisonment, death, or exile. For that to happen, they must take Canterlot. If the rebels have any form of intelligence, they're aware that they must take Canterlot at some point if their rebellion is going to have any sort of legitimacy.
I do, however, agree that the taking of Canterlot is very much a late-game strategy and not nearly so prominent in the minds of the Ephorate as many of the Loyalists believe. The rebels will eventually lay siege to Canterlot, they have no other choice, but a smart commander wouldn't do so until every other area of Equestria they are capable of seizing is already under their control.

I still disagree. So Celestia can wait? So what? Either she'll shape up and be invited back in, or she'd have to try to take over. Psychology says that she won't do the latter, and, more importantly, the point of the rebellion is to show that the rebels can defend their territory. Taking Canterlot would shorten the war, most likely, but I don't think that it's at all necessary.

I disagree, I think Morning Star and her husband are very much under Sunbeam's control. Politics is all about lying, and the "lie" that Sunbeam places contingency spells within her enchantments is practically Gospel. I would wager that Morning Star has been Sunbeam's accomplice for a very long time, and is very used to performing subtle tasks for her mistress. There is not many holes to be poked in her arguments, as well. It is completely in-character for Sunbeam to place traps within any gesture of good will, and Shadow is just arrogant enough to think that Sunbeam is stupid enough to do that. However, we are all painfully aware that Sunbeam is frighteningly intelligent. I'm convinced that any contingency spells were placed on the armor by Morning Star herself, under Sunbeam's direction.

And if someone else checked? If Shadow went to a different mage to get the initial checking done? If Morning Star is indeed one of Sunbeam's ponies, it's much more useful to keep it completely hidden and use the resultant relationship with Shadow.

It'd be funny if the original secret enchantments were just placeholders. Like, Morning Star turned on her magic vision and the enchantment to make the sword incapable of cutting Sunbeam was literally just a note written in invisible horn writing saying "Make this sword unable to cut me, Morning Star. Lots of love, Sunbeam."

:D

[Forevermore]

the point of the rebellion is to show that the rebels can defend their territory.

I'm sorry but that is just completely wrong. The pegasi are recognized by everyone as the greatest fighting force on the planet, they have nothing to prove to anyone. There's also the fact that in the interlude from the Charger's point of view, it was specifically stated that the rebels were using "down with the tyrant Celestia" as a rallying cry to garner support from the earth ponies.
Furthermore, the pegasi are not threatened by anyone and are defending nothing by starting this war. Celestia, the god-queen of Unicornia, was going to leave them alone and let them sort themselves out. She stated this publicly by accepting her removal without a fight. The initiation of the conflict was based entirely on paranoia and ambition, and the irrational fear spurred on by Carrot's actions. The Ephorate is aware of this, and have spurred the conflict on by badmouthing Celestia constantly and spreading propaganda about how evil she is. There's nothing "defensive" about their rebellion.
The Ephorate is not going to invite Celestia back in. They've turned their civic protest at an absentee commander into a full-on rebellion against what they claim is a tyrannical leader. Once again, they are demanding Celestia's complete and total removal from power and using this as a rallying cry to create support among the earth ponies and their own pegasi. We've seen that the rank-and-file of Pegasopolis is confused bordering on apathetic to the reasons behind the war, particularly since it means fighting their own families. The Ephorate's only support, at the moment, comes from a lifetime of indoctrination and ingrained loyalty. They are aware of this, which is why they're trying to paint Celestia in as bad a light as possible to keep the soldiers from thinking too hard about what they're doing.
There is no way, with all the Lunars have built themselves as "removing a tyrant," that they can just give up and let Celestia continue to rule. They've dug themselves into a metaphorical hole, and thus they must take Canterlot or lose most of their support among the earth ponies and the pegasi.

[Forevermore]

And if someone else checked? If Shadow went to a different mage to get the initial checking done? If Morning Star is indeed one of Sunbeam's ponies, it's much more useful to keep it completely hidden and use the resultant relationship with Shadow.

Shadow wouldn't have gone to anyone else because she knows precious few unicorns and Copper is the most powerful one she knows. There was never a chance of her going to a different unicorn first.

She might have conceivably gone to Celestia (unlikely but still within the realm of possibility). However, if we go with my theory that Sunbeam does none of the contingency enchanting herself, Celestia would have declared it clean and likely taken it as a sign of Sunbeam's sincerity and burgeoning conscience. Which would cause Shadow to reevaluate her opinion of Sunbeam and extend her more trust. Either way, Sunbeam would get something out of it.

[O. Hinds]

The pegasi are recognized by everyone as the greatest fighting force on the planet, they have nothing to prove to anyone.

They have enough of a reputation to convince Unicornia to let the other two thirds of Equestria go without any attempt to get them back?

There's also the fact that in the interlude from the Charger's point of view, it was specifically stated that the rebels were using "down with the tyrant Celestia" as a rallying cry to garner support from the earth ponies.

Where? I've searched for both "Celestia" and "tyrant" and not found that. What I have found:

“I thank thee for the offer,” Sierra murmured. “I only pray that my daughter still has a father when this war is ended. Astra already misses him, and I would not have her parted from him for all of time.” Her eyes turned west, to Canterlot. “The unicorns cannot ignore the loss of Manehatten. They will meet us in the field, and we will defeat them. Mayhaps then reason will return and the Sun Tyrant will ask for terms.”

Furthermore, the pegasi are not threatened by anyone and are defending nothing by starting this war. Celestia, the god-queen of Unicornia, was going to leave them alone and let them sort themselves out. She stated this publicly by accepting her removal without a fight. The initiation of the conflict was based entirely on paranoia and ambition, and the irrational fear spurred on by Carrot's actions. The Ephorate is aware of this, and have spurred the conflict on by badmouthing Celestia constantly and spreading propaganda about how evil she is. There's nothing "defensive" about their rebellion.

Fear and paranoia, yes, and I'd say that much of it is not unjustified. There is also the matter of the need for peacekeeping among the earth ponies.

The Ephorate is not going to invite Celestia back in.

And your own point earlier, about Celestia's immortality?

They've turned their civic protest at an absentee commander into a full-on rebellion against what they claim is a tyrannical leader.

What isn't misunderstanding amongst the pegasi is an attempt to build unity and peace among the earth ponies.

Once again, they are demanding Celestia's complete and total removal from power and using this as a rallying cry to create support among the earth ponies and their own pegasi.

Again, where do you see this?

We've seen that the rank-and-file of Pegasopolis is confused bordering on apathetic to the reasons behind the war, particularly since it means fighting their own families.

Eh? And it's only those with family among the rogue Kickers to whom the latter would apply. The rogue Kickers who would have been offered full amnesty.

The Ephorate's only support, at the moment, comes from a lifetime of indoctrination and ingrained loyalty. They are aware of this, which is why they're trying to paint Celestia in as bad a light as possible to keep the soldiers from thinking too hard about what they're doing.

Because if they thought about it, they'd… what?

There is no way, with all the Lunars have built themselves as "removing a tyrant," that they can just give up and let Celestia continue to rule. They've dug themselves into a metaphorical hole, and thus they must take Canterlot or lose most of their support among the earth ponies and the pegasi.

Removing her from power over Pegasopolis and the earth ponies. Both of which have forms of government that might very well eventually restore her.

Shadow wouldn't have gone to anyone else because she knows precious few unicorns and Copper is the most powerful one she knows. There was never a chance of her going to a different unicorn first.
The only situation in which Shadow would have gone to another mage is if Copper and/or his wife said her armor and weapon were clean of deception. Shadow honestly wouldn't believe that. She just couldn't, she'd have to assume her friends weren't skilled-enough to be able to tell, and either wouldn't have worn the armor or would have had one more unicorn give it one more look-over just to be sure.

Hm, probably a pretty safe bet… Okay, so Morning Star might very well be one of Sunbeam's secret ponies. :D

[O. Hinds]

Well, she doesn't exactly abolish it entirely.  A lot of it seems to have been folded into the Cult of Shadow.
Oh, and hey… look what I've just found when your post spurred me to look:
Regarding Alula, Cloud's little sister:

I counted my blessings that Flight Camp was still a while off for ‘lula – after she learned to fly, filly-proofing was gonna be a lot harder.

She's about the same age as the Crusaders, and indeed plays with them later in the story.  Why do I bring this up?  Well...

“Wing-blades are boring.” ‘lula whined. “Mom wanted me to learn them, but it wasn’t any fun at all!

I bet I could find more evidence if I looked.  That "not training pegasi for combat from youth" thing sure seems to be working out.

Oh, actually, yes, I can find more.  Feast your eyes on this:

“Right.” I took a moment to figure out where to start it all. “Look, the thing you’ve gotta know about my family is that being in the Guard is kinda ... well it’s what we do. My Mom, my Dad, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, pretty much all of them are in the Guard. It’s been that way for a long time. It’s a family tradition. You ever have an afternoon to waste, ask my grandpa about the history of the Kicker clan, and he’ll tell you the entire family history all the way back to Shadow Kicker. Nine hundred years of tradition is a pretty big deal to some ponies.
“Of course, everypony expected me to carry on the family name in the Guard. Just like my mother before me, and her mother before her, and her mother before her, and ... you get the idea. They had me learning hoof-to-hoof combat and taking wing-blade classes before I could fly. Don’t get me wrong, they weren’t so crazy about it to the point of not letting me have a childhood or anything, but they did start training me to be a good little soldier early on.
“I went along with it just fine for the most part. Everypony in my family expected me to grow up and join the Guard, so that’s what I expected would happen too. Soon as I finished up with school and Flight Camp, it was off to West Hoof Military Academy. I did pretty good there. Damn good, really. I enjoyed a lot of it, but...” I sighed, and tried to decide how to put it all into words. “I think what it was is that as long as it was about getting through the classes and competition I was alright, but once I was done with all that...

Yeah...
The thing with Alula might have been a result of her mother being replaced, but Cloud talking about her entire family?  As usual, Shadow seems to have rather different views on the merits of pegasopolian culture when applied to the loyal Kickers and the same when applied to anyone else.

[O. Hinds]

Hm. I see two possibilities.

One, that conversation didn't happen. It seemed out of place because it was inserted after the fact to try and cast suspicion away from a plot. Gale won't go off script because the conversation was part of the script.

Two, the conversation was genuine. It seemed out of place because most signs of discord within Shadow's Kickers are hidden. This one was left in because Gale does go off script later and they had to explain it somehow.

[O. Hinds]

Aye, I'm pretty much with you there. About all we know is that she doesn't assassinate Shadow or something similarly drastic.

[O. Hinds]

Interlude 4:

[O. Hinds]

Okay, a new chapter of Midnight's Shadow.

Spoiler:

So... Yeah. Stuff happened.

[Forevermore]

(Someone in the comments suggested that Carrot Casserole might be a warlock and have sent them, actually.)

That was me.

In regards to Gale's assertion of Red Steel being of Pegasopolis and therefore being bound by pegasus duty, I addressed that in my comment. Personally, I think Red Steel hates her heritage for what it did to her (her brother maimed her, immediately followed by her father basically disowning her and throwing her out for something she had no control over). I call complete bull on the whole "taking the Steel name to honor her father" thing, which makes me curious as to what her actual motivations were behind her name. Her dislike of Celestia is obvious, she likely lost whatever friends she had during the war and even though she may have hated her family growing up, she still wouldn't have rejoiced in their deaths (I'd hazard a guess that she dislikes Shadow and Sunbeam, as well). I doubt there's any political motivation behind it, she doesn't seem particularly well-educated so she probably has little to no real understanding of the war or the parties involved. I think we can safely chalk Red Steel's hostility up to having lost her family in the war before ever getting a chance to confront them about her maiming, leaving all the adolescent angst and impotent rage with nowhere to go.

I found Gale's actions rather disturbing in this chapter, as well. She was incredibly possessive, overly physical, and patronizing. She's treating Midnight like a toy, rather than a peer. It definitely carried undertones of an abuse, but was still innocent enough that Gale/Midnight shippers or casual observers won't pick up on it (or refuse to pick up on it). The kissing in the shower thing was definitely not the behavior of a friend/caretaker. Midnight's complete lack of reaction to it suggests both that this is not unusual for Gale and that she's not effected by it. I'm beginning to think Midnight might be asexual.

I stand by my belief that the children trashing Midnight's stuff was deliberate.

[RoboRed]

I call complete bull on the whole "taking the Steel name to honor her father" thing, which makes me curious as to what her actual motivations were behind her name.

I thought it might have been a nod to the bloody (red) steel which robbed her of her flight. *shrug*

[O. Hinds]

That was me.

Ah, nice.  :)
You may be right.  To be honest, my thoughts haven't been on the warlock plot much beyond direct feeds from the text, despite that being the main plot of the story.

In regards to Gale's assertion of Red Steel being of Pegasopolis and therefore being bound by pegasus duty, I addressed that in my comment. Personally, I think Red Steel hates her heritage for what it did to her (her brother maimed her, immediately followed by her father basically disowning her and throwing her out for something she had no control over). I call complete bull on the whole "taking the Steel name to honor her father" thing, which makes me curious as to what her actual motivations were behind her name. Her dislike of Celestia is obvious, she likely lost whatever friends she had during the war and even though she may have hated her family growing up, she still wouldn't have rejoiced in their deaths (I'd hazard a guess that she dislikes Shadow and Sunbeam, as well). I doubt there's any political motivation behind it, she doesn't seem particularly well-educated so she probably has little to no real understanding of the war or the parties involved. I think we can safely chalk Red Steel's hostility up to having lost her family in the war before ever getting a chance to confront them about her maiming, leaving all the adolescent angst and impotent rage with nowhere to go.

Hm.  So you basically think that she might be mad at more or less everyone from her past?  That's plausible and interesting, I think, though, for obvious reasons, I like the idea of her being on the side of the rebels.  We shall have to see what new evidence we acquire.
I also wonder if she's friendlier with some of the ponies in town when we're not seeing her through Midnight's eyes in circumstances such as these.

I found Gale's actions rather disturbing in this chapter, as well. She was incredibly possessive, overly physical, and patronizing. She's treating Midnight like a toy, rather than a peer. It definitely carried undertones of an abuse, but was still innocent enough that Gale/Midnight shippers or casual observers won't pick up on it (or refuse to pick up on it). The kissing in the shower thing was definitely not the behavior of a friend/caretaker. Midnight's complete lack of reaction to it suggests both that this is not unusual for Gale

Ah, whew, so it wasn't just me.  And yeah… one can say cultural differences, one can say that they're really close friends while still being innocent, but there comes a time when the evidence really starts to pile up.  I mean, all the little bits by themselves, even Gale knowing Midnight since she was a filly, don't necessarily mean anything, particularly given the cultural differences.  But when the entire pile is taken together and things keep falling on it still?  Not exactly complimentary to Gale.

and that she's not effected by it. I'm beginning to think Midnight might be asexual.

On the one hoof, that may be plausible.  On the other, we more or less know that Midnight has descendants, unless Sunbeam pulls another child from somewhere.  Hopefully, if Midnight is asexual, she just finds out that she has an exception.  If not…  Hm…

Same-sex reproduction is possible, either by use of transformation magic (which requires a highly skilled caster) or via the nebulous Magic of Love. In the case of two stallions, the magic of love route also requires a mare willing to carry the foal to term. A child cannot be conceived through the Magic of Love unless both partners wish to procreate—however, even a subconscious desire for offspring will suffice. Because of this, some couples use amulets, talismans, and other devices to prevent conception.

I'm now slightly worried about just how far Gale's ambitions for and ability to shape her relationship with Midnight go.  She has been able to work on this for a long time, and a family alliance like that would be very useful.
I'm having a bit of trouble believing that I'm not being overly paranoid here.

I stand by my belief that the children trashing Midnight's stuff was deliberate.

Hey, yeah.  Until just now, I'd been wondering how even their mother would have been able to sufficiently convince them, but… mind control.  That could also easily apply if it wasn't their mother, so I'm still not sure about that; that the children did or were made to do that deliberately, however, now seems quite plausible.

[Forevermore]

I thought it might have been a nod to the bloody (red) steel which robbed her of her flight. *shrug*

I was thinking that, as well.

So you basically think that she might be mad at more or less everyone from her past?

I do. Red Steel has had arguably the most traumatic origin of anypony in the Winningverse so far, and with the clearly primitive understanding of psychology of the time (coupled with the war) it's very unlikely she ever received any kind of counseling. I'd imagine she's carrying around a great deal of adolescent angst without any idea of how to deal with it besides blaming everypony and everything around her.

we more or less know that Midnight has descendants, unless Sunbeam pulls another child from somewhere.  Hopefully, if Midnight is asexual, she just finds out that she has an exception.

It's actually very common for people who identify as asexual to lead fulfilling romantic and family lives. "Asexual" only means that one is disinterested in sex and doesn't feel physical attraction on the same level that a conventionally sexual person does. Many asexual people have families and even lead active sex lives in their relationship.
Let's also factor in Midnight's personality. While she's shown no interest in foals, very common for young adults, she likely recognizes the practical side to having ones of her own. Given Midnight's passive, almost submissive, nature, she is also likely to want foals in order to please her mother (and any other adult who's talked about it with her). It would be very in-character for Sunbeam to actively encourage her only child to procreate when the time was right.

Until just now, I'd been wondering how even their mother would have been able to sufficiently convince them, but… mind control. 

While I wouldn't rule that out, I think it's unlikely. If you've ever spent any significant length of time around children (babysitting or kids of your own) than you know how destructive they can be. It wouldn't be difficult for an adult in a position of authority (particularly a relative) to convince young children to misbehave. We've never been given an age for the two foals responsible, but my current estimate puts them around four or five. More than young enough that they wouldn't think to consider something an adult is telling them beyond "Mommy said to do the thing."

[O. Hinds]

It's actually very common for people who identify as asexual to lead fulfilling romantic and family lives. "Asexual" only means that one is disinterested in sex and doesn't feel physical attraction on the same level that a conventionally sexual person does. Many asexual people have families and even lead active sex lives in their relationship.
Let's also factor in Midnight's personality. While she's shown no interest in foals, very common for young adults, she likely recognizes the practical side to having ones of her own. Given Midnight's passive, almost submissive, nature, she is also likely to want foals in order to please her mother (and any other adult who's talked about it with her). It would be very in-character for Sunbeam to actively encourage her only child to procreate when the time was right.

Ah, good (and thanks for the information). I still hope that it isn't Gale, though.

[O. Hinds]

Odd that necromancy is among those, but maybe there's something specific being implied by the word. Creating a golem made out of bone doesn't seem all that more harmful than one made of clay and should cause no offense if the bone isn't of any previous-sentient creature. Consulting the dead, appeasing the dead (I really doubt ghosts don't exist in this world), prophesy... I doubt there aren't lots of legitimate uses for necromancy that aren't the raising-an-army-of-zombies type.

It might be that it just creeps ponies out.

By all that is terrible, I WISH Midnight would just lay down and admit "Yes, I am physically inferior to the lot of you. I lack your stamina, your strength, etc. etc... Truly, the countless hours I have wasted unraveling the secrets of the universe that would have been better spent running about a yard."

:D

Midnight: "You're absolutely right. After all, all she sent to your village was a royal magus and two of her most seasoned guards. Two of those three being the daughters of her two greatest allies... the grand archmagus and the royal protector! What insult! If she REALLY cared, she'd have come here herself, forgoing all other responsibilities to the realm. I mean, the nerve of that goddess! Honestly!"

Aren't they trying not to throw Midnight's identity about?

Anyway, for my part, though, I would then begin to consider the means via which I would avoid that death. Midnight just... doesn't. Sunbeam, IIRC, is actually known for faking her own death many times. I suspect many of those times came from situations like these in which there was a possibility (whether likely or not) of her dying and, rather than running from it, turned around and took advantage of it.

Hm, interesting idea.

Huh... I never got that impression. I thought they just had one, maybe two, excursions in their youth. Shadow barely remembered him when she met him again so many years later.

Well, "significant" doesn't have to refer only to length.

Not to mention that Shadow is in her old age right now, a period in which magi only continue to grow stronger while those who rely on physical force can only whither.

It's only been ten years; would Shadow really be that old?

Hmmmmm... that sounds really weird from Gale. I wonder how many years she and her mother searched for evidence that could directly link Sunbeam to the loss of Polaris before they made this concession. There really is no possible way they would take this on anything short of a mountain of evidence given how treacherous they are, particularly given their hatred of Sunbeam.

Aye, though I imagine that they waited until after the war to really start. Until then, it would have been convenient in just the way said, and the Loyalists could ill afford such division within their own ranks. After the fighting was over, though…

Given how insensitive Midnight is, it would have been funnier if she'd actually said aloud, "I can only imagine the pain that losing my horn would do to me. Those weeks before it grew back would be unpleasant indeed..."

:D

Midnight: "And then shower. Both of thee are filthy and 'tis more than prudent."
Older child: "Must we?"
Midnight: "Sigh... I suppose not. First thing in the morning, though, be sure to send a request to thy local carpenter for a peg leg. The bit of acid toad bile thy have spilt on thy leg will begin digesting it soon now that it has been exposed to the air and t'would be impolite not to inform the craftspony of such need for his services as early as possible."
Both children: O_O
Midnight: "Thy younger brother will be far more courteous. The ignition potion clinging to his mane is unlikely to leave more than ashes when it activates. He may be simply buried in his own saddlebags."
Older child: "...oh, haha, you're joking... right?"
Midnight: *blinks and turns to Gale* "Gale, what is joking, again?"

Yeah. :D

[O. Hinds]

Oh, I'd either forgotten was was underestimating to begin with just how interested Gale was in Midnight. Based on your previous comment, I'm guessing that you were already assuming this.

[O. Hinds]

Hm... Maybe... I can see that going two ways. One, it's not plausible because Midnight simply isn't very interested; it would be a more efficient use of Gale's time to focus on other means of control. Two, it's quite plausible because Midnight is interested but doesn't really know how to deal with it; Gale would then become the only one she could go to and trust for this sort of thing. I'm currently thinking that the first one is more plausible, based on Midnight's observed behavior and thoughts, but I suppose it's possible that Gale could be misreading the situation.

[O. Hinds]

Hm, good point, yes. So it's now looking pretty likely to me that Gale is misreading the situation.

[O. Hinds]

Rising Shadows 5:

[Forevermore]

I didn't see much of you hoping to avoid it, just a lot of you talking about how much you want and need it to happen.

Yep. Shadow's letting a little too much of her bloodthirst show through.

Yep. The true Commander. No matter what those pesky "law" things say.

Shadow's whole reasoning here was just painful to read. Celestia has no ties to the pegasi anymore. The only reason they're fighting is because the Ephorate invaded the sovereign earth pony nation under the pretense of "restoring order." Seriously, Celestia's command of the pegasi has next to nothing to do with anything.

…HM. NOW WHY DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR?

Most of Shadow's dialogue makes me facepalm.

And Crossguard is too old to take the field, meaning that you'll be the one everypony sees and hears about on the battlefield while he stays back in Canterlot. "Trusted subordinate" indeed, Ms. Asymmetric Warfare.

Polaris has taught Shadow well.

So either the failsafes really were removed or Sunbeam's concealment can fool Celestia.

I still question there having been failsafes in the first place.

I wonder if the Princess Sense works on griffins?

I'd hazard a guess and say yes.

I am rather curious about Midnight's parentage, yes.

This is probably the most interesting piece of information we've gotten out of this chapter. We're all well aware that Sunbeam is a high functioning sociopath with little in the way of conventional morality. The knowledge that she is the sire, not the mother, of a love foal brings up all kinds of questions and forces a reevaluation of her character. Most notably, the fact that she is fully capable of deep enough love to conceive a foal with another adult pony. Considering that Celestia would have full knowledge of this, one has to wonder if she's less blind towards Sunbeam's condition than she lets on. Having witnessed Sunbeam falling in deep love firsthand provides a pretty good basis for believing she can change for the better.

[O. Hinds]

The only reason they're fighting is because the Ephorate invaded the sovereign earth pony nation under the pretense of "restoring order."

And, you know, it's not really much of a pretense if it's what's actually being done.  The pegasi are being welcomed by around half the population and trying to be fair to and just as protective of the other half.

Having witnessed Sunbeam falling in deep love firsthand provides a pretty good basis for believing she can change for the better.

Well, not necessarily, if this example is to be believed:

From TVTropes:

Still, yes, it is quite interesting.

[O. Hinds]

So much for not wanting to kill her kin!

My gosh, Shadow, stop contradicting yourself already.

"Oh, but I don't want to kill kin.  It's just that I want them killed and want to kill something; that's not the same at all!"

OWN UP TO YOUR OWN ACTIONS FOR ONCE IN YOUR MISERABLE LIFE!

Oh, that's likely.

Next thing she'll say that it was Pegasopolis that betrayed and threw out the Kicker clan, all those clan members that stayed being among them. That the Kickers were the only thing that remained of Pegasopolis after that day, the rest of their race having fallen to evil and corruption with no ties to the honorable ways of the ancient pegasi.

IIRC, I think she kind of does, though she may have waited until after the rebels got desperate and started using forbidden magic.

...actually I have to wonder if, in the "present day" and behind closed doors, the Kicker compound is called "Pegasopolis" as if the "true" country was only ever where their clan resided.

I don't think so; I've not read all of the Winningverse stuff, but I don't remember that happening.

Thus: the need to cut them off from those past, much more reasonable loyalties. With a sword.

"Well, what would you use?  Cutting is what swords are for!"
I do wonder about this bit, though; I suspect that Shadow may really have believed that the lack of glory was at least part of the problem.  In here eyes, after all, it seems to be service to Celestia that has the most potential for glory, more than being at the top of Pegasopolian society (like, say, if the clan's materfamilias was Commander of Pegasopolis) could give.
Though, given that her talent is asymmetric warfare, she could very easily just be using psychological tactics to control her forces and then lying about it (it wouldn't be the first or last time).  Hm.  Thoughts?

Oooohhh... I like this stallion.
I like him a lot.

I thought you would.  I rather do as well.  :)

So... Crossguard sent Shadow to the exact location Famous Spear would flee to, ensuring that the mercenary would end up back with his old clan instead of dead or in the hooves of those who might just lynch with without trial. That doesn't seem convenient at all!

…Huh.  I did not think of that.  Interesting…

...is princess-sense Celestia-exclusive?

Well, it seems to be restricted to the proper Princesses; Cadance doesn't have it.  (There's at least one Winningverse story with Princess Twilight, but I've not read it.)  At the time, that would mean Celestia and Luna.  Luna is banished, and Celestia might also believe that her princess sense broke.

And yet, Celestia IS a coward. She doesn't trust her own convictions. Her desire to do whatever it took to obtain peace, even if it made her appear weak (instead of just compassionate). If only she could decide that enough was enough and fly directly to the enemy commander, princess-sense leading the way, and demand peace be attained. Demand negotiations for an end to hostilities begin immediately before a single additional life was claimed and that, as ponies of reason, they must be capable of finding a way to resolve these issues without making any more war.

Yep.  How long would the war last if Celestia did that?  Hey, if she's worried about unrest among the unicorns, she could just hand Canterlot over to Pegasopolis; they've been keeping the peace in Manehattan well enough.  The ponies truly loyal to Celestia won't fight because Celestia doesn't want them to, the ponies out for independence won't fight because they've won, and anyone else won't fight because they'd be crushed.  Achieving peace, which is what Celestia really wants, would be easy.  The problem is that I can't think of a single one of her advisors we've seen wanting peace; they're pushing her to demand victory without understanding (or without caring) that their idea of victory is a lot more blood-soaked than hers.

Yes, yes. The best way to recover from a nearly total loss due to acting before one's armies are ready is to act some more before one's armies are ready.
One could hardly imagine a situation that actually called for waiting and careful preparation.

Hm.  Again, I'm actually going to agree with the Loyalists over you here.  They do need to do this, I think, and for the reasons they say.  It's very risky in terms of winning battles, but it's vital in terms of winning the war.
Unicornia does nothing->Unicornia tries to do something and gets soundly thrashed->Unicornia does nothing again->even some of the border unicorns, nevermind the earth ponies, start jumping ship
When one of the primary reasons for the civil war is the central government being unwilling and/or unable to protect its people, it really, really has to be seen as actively fighting.  Otherwise, the rebels might not even need to make propaganda of their own.

I've yet to understand the sense it would make to try and take Canterlot. It goes against the pegasi's propaganda. Better to continue to cover the country, turning as many to their side as possible, starving Celestia of her empire.
By the time Celestia's armies would leave their city, the whole world would be against them. What sense would there be left to this war, at that point? Who would they fight? The grand armies of the pegasi and earth pony nations would dwarf Canterlot's entirely, particularly absent the majority of their unicorn forces.

Aye.  Possibly it's a desire for a quick end to the fighting?

...which the pegasi really should be offering to return before long. While they'd be a good bargaining chip in the future to get pegasi back, they should really put Canterlot's conditional surrender on the table now that they have something to negotiate with.

Good point.

...oh! Because colonels are psychologists, now!
THAT'S why this idiotic editor decided to insert this guy's worthless opinion!
It makes so much sense, because he would clearly have to be an expert on the topic! Have legitimately studied it and be able to provide verifiable research to back up his views! Colonels are well known for their even-handed study of "dangerous sociopaths"!

You're forgetting: Kicker Clan.  Pretty much every single member is in the Guard, no matter what the details of their training.  Even Cloud only skipped out at her West Hoof graduation ceremony.

But really! You know what else you can't become by merit of simply assuming you must be?
A competent editor!

Well, she doesn't strike me as particularly incompetent, but yeah.  Neither her time as a Guard cadet nor her weatherpony work seem likely to have included training for this.

I need a "Psychoshy Approved!" stamp.

:D

She really should have more faith in her mother's ability to avoid dying.
She's apparently faked it many times and, in the one alternate-universe instance in which she very nearly DID die, she ended up becoming immortal. Midnight really gives her mother far too little credit.
I mean, her cutie mark is a phoenix. Her special talent, if I had to guess, is rising again every time she falls, ever more glorious and terrible than before.

:)

Nah, they seek it 'cause "‘Tis difficult to claim the title of warrior if one does not, at some point, make war."
Honestly, what was this mare's cutie mark, again? Is it two faces? Because that's certainly her talent.

I don't remember the image, but the meaning's given interpretation is "asymmetric warfare".  Of which, you know, misdirection and dirty tricks might be seen as key components…

...uh, why? Is it gruesome or something?
I could see her finding a mare that has a strong magical potential and paying her to bear a child of Sunbeam's.

Oh, I'm sure that she could and would do it if she had a reason, but I've not thought of one.  She couldn't be "compromised" by her affection for Midnight before Midnight was even conceived, and she wouldn't need to use these methods if she loved the birth mother.  Therefore, she must have done it because she expected to profit from it.

[O. Hinds]

Haaaaa... what a chapter! For some reason I feel like Shadow lied a little bit more in this one than she has in many previous. What fun!

…And actually, on that note, I'm once again wondering if Chengar Qordath is doing this deliberately.
I mean… seriously.  Are we really just looking so hard that we're seizing on the slightest inconsequential implications?  Because, if not, it seems odd that we're finding so much that just happens to paint this picture…

[Forevermore]

You know, we haven't exactly seen what the cultists are getting out of this. We know they're loyal to Nightmare Moon, but what do they actually want? If I had to guess, I'd say they're working towards eternal night. This entire war (which, as has been discussed, has no real basis in reality as none of the issues are cause for bloodshed) could well have been orchestrated with the singular intent of killing Celestia. Why? To prevent the sun from rising.

While it is true that the unicorns of old raised the sun on their own but it's possible the spells they used to do it have been lost to time. Offing Celestia might well put the sun out of commission permanently.

So while it may not make tactical sense to Swicked (I personally see the reasoning for it) to take Canterlot, it doesn't really have to. The cultists want a return to Nightmare Moon and the "glory of eternal night" and the quickest way to that is if her ancient enemy and jailer is out of the picture.

[O. Hinds]

@Forevermore:
…Eh… That doesn't seem terribly likely, given how much they'd have to orchestrate without revealing themselves, and I rather hope it isn't true. Sorry.

...being in the kicker clan makes you a psychologist?
I still would have expected a "Dr." in front of any name claiming to know anything about mental health.

No, being in the Kicker clan makes you tend to refer to people by their military ranks instead of any other titles they might have ("Doctor-Colonel"?). I do seem to recall that Wind has formal training in psychology, though I'm not sure she has an actual doctorate. Anyway, it could just be Cloud demonstrating that she maybe wasn't the best Kicker to pick for this job. :)

Actually kinda serious. How much does Penby charge for commissions? He makes best Psychoshy.

:D
I'm afraid that I don't know, but I'm sure you could ask. :D

No, asymmetric warfare is Gale.

Is it?
Ah, nope, sorry.

“Not all battles are fought with the immediate objective of claiming absolute victory.” I was somewhat tempted to take the opportunity to begin lecturing my daughter on the finer points of grand strategy, but now was not the best time to play instructor. Still, it would not do to allow my daughter to grow too linear in her thought processes—if nothing else, it reflect poorly upon my ability to properly instruct her in the area of my own expertise. (4)
4: For the record, Shadow’s special talent was asymmetric warfare. I admit, I’m rather curious just what an asymmetric warfare cutie mark would look like, but unfortunately there are no surviving detailed descriptions of exactly what her cutie mark looked like, just a few vague mentions of it featuring a bladed wing.

She's raising Midnight to take over as archmage when she passes on. It's for Equestria. At least, originally. Now it's also for love.

Hm… Yes, I suppose that that would work. I'd had expected her to just adopt, but perhaps she wanted additional certainty.

Maybe. Possibly. Increasingly likely.

And it would probably be a bit vain to think that they're putting this stuff in just to tease us… I mean, someone as notable as Comma-Kazie mentioned picking up on it.

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