The True Story of Shadow Kicker (and other Winningverse speculation)

[O. Hinds]

A rather short, dark mare in battered armor passed through gilded and marbled imperial halls, and a path opened before her; radiant, admiring glances followed her, while the ears of courtiers strained to catch her every word.  And she, sure of herself and her works, obviously paid no attention to all this.  Her country was in ruins, hungry, exhausted.  But her soldiers and followers, heavy with fame and wealth and drunk with glory and victory, had already trampled all armed opposition under their hooves, and she was convinced that she would soon see all the land and its people brought firmly and finally under the celestial throne.  She knew that she was one of the cruelest, most treacherous and blood-soaked figures in the history of ponykind.  But this did not worry her a bit, for she was convinced that she was only elevating her beloved to the position she was due, and that that was worth any price.

Modification of a passage by Milovan Djilas

This is a thread for the discussion of an alternate character interpretation of the Winningverse's Shadow Kicker based on the premise that her autobiography, as told in The Lunar Rebellion, is not a factual account of events.  The belief upon which this thread is founded is that Shadow Kicker, with help from her daughter and other followers, deliberately chose to portray herself as a not particularly wise hero simply swept along by events beyond her control.  In reality, she was one of the most brilliant, charismatic, driven, and morally complex ponies in Equestria's history.  Utterly devoted  to Celestia, though not to Celestia's desires, above all else, she would deliberately cause one of the worst wars in Equestrian history, preside over the violent extermination of her home civilization, orchestrate the whitewashing of the whole affair, and establish her own cult to insure that her descendants continued to serve her goddess-in-all-but-name.  Or something like that.  That is a somewhat charitable interpretation, but the lack of information and quality of her revision of history have made the true story rather difficult to piece together.  That, though, is what this thread is for.

(Note: I'm actually quite fond of the Winningverse; while it does have some bad stories in it as a result of being a shared universe, I've read quite a few good ones.  I just really dislike Shadow Kicker, and this is the only way I've found to prevent that dislike from spreading to the rest of the universe that would honor her.  And, as a friend said, however fun one finds The Lunar Rebellion to read, it does seem to be quite fun to talk about.)

edit: swicked and I (hopefully someone else will be here at some point) have expanded this thread to include other Winningverse speculation, as the new title says.

edit 2: For those interested particularly in our Lunarwinningverse speculation, it starts here.

edit 3: Turns out Shadow wasn't actually short. Not sure where I got that impression; sorry.

[O. Hinds]

Potential spoilers for The Lunar Rebellion:

Spoiler:

Having not read the winningverse, I did not realize the extent of shadow's presence and impact on the modern equestria.
If it is as you say, however, I completely support your theory.

Well, I wouldn't say that she's a household name all across the land, but Celestia still speaks fondly of her and the Kicker Clan still reveres her (Literally.  Praying to idols of her literally.), has a large fortified private compound in the middle of Canterlot, and makes up a not-insignificant portion of Equestria's military.  And, now that I think about it, if you read between the lines, some of the mentions of how no one minds the dissolution of the clans and all that and everyone is happy with how the war turned out and it was nine hundred years ago anyway seem a bit... insistent.

Addition to my earlier Winningverse post:

Spoiler:

It's marked as an edit because I originally added it to my post on FIMFiction.

Addition to my earlier Winningverse post:

Spoiler:

It's marked as an edit because I originally added it to my post on FIMFiction.

What changed your opinion?

Addition to my earlier Winningverse post:

Spoiler:

It's marked as an edit because I originally added it to my post on FIMFiction.

What changed your opinion?

My respect for her abilities has not changed since we last spoke on the matter; it is simply that I found, upon returning to the story, that the change to my emotions wrought by my revelation was a temporary one.  I believe that my realization of the extent of her actions temporarily obscured from my mind what seeing her attempt to cast herself as a beleaguered hero actually looked like.

You know, I may be too late for the poll, but what I find most interesting about it is choice of categories offered.  "Celestia", "Rebels", "Neutral", and "Whichever Side Shadow's on".  The idea that a reader might have no particular quarrel with and perhaps even pity Celestia, sympathize with the rebels, and regard Shadow as the villain of the piece does not seem to have occurred to the poll's creator.

I must confess, I am not used to having such strong emotional reactions to characters; I am not entirely sure what it is about Shadow that riles me so.

I believe that my realization of the extent of her actions temporarily obscured from my mind what seeing her attempt to cast herself as a beleaguered hero actually looked like.

I'm having some difficulty understanding what you are saying here. The extent of her actions... in light of the conspiracy you suspect exists behind them? Then that changed when you read the story and saw how she writes herself? I'm confused.

I must confess, I am not used to having such strong emotional reactions to characters; I am not entirely sure what it is about Shadow that riles me so.

Maybe it's just because you can't accept her narrative. That's more than just not liking a character, let alone hating a character. It's how the fic was written that angers you.

I had a similar experience when I tried to read Fallout Equestria: Heroes. The main character kills a bunch of the militia that keeps her home protected, then is let to go free. Well, one of them poisons her leg, but otherwise free. The poison would have eventually killed her, but she comes across a friendly machinist who replaces the leg with a cyber one that's much more powerful. For free.
Jump forward a bit and she's been contracted to kill what appears to be a friendly old lady. She accepts the job because whatever, it's money, and "luckily" it turns out the lady was running some kinda slave traffic in her basement that nobody knew about. The "hero" takes the little filly slave from down there and immediately sells her to some other slavers. Then turns around and kills them all as soon as they turn their backs. She gets incredibly wounded but, hey, turns out the filly is a trauma doctor.

You're basically being emotionally railroaded. The fic is telling you what you're supposed to be thinking and you're not accepting the narrative, much like I couldn't accept the way the author of Heroes constantly twisted the world around Silver in order to paint Silver as still being a hero and prevent her from suffering any real consequences for her actions.
Shadow is being a traitor and an asshole but the fic insists she's the hero so you're being forced to accept everyone else as being the bad guys.

I believe that my realization of the extent of her actions temporarily obscured from my mind what seeing her attempt to cast herself as a beleaguered hero actually looked like.

I'm having some difficulty understanding what you are saying here. The extent of her actions... in light of the conspiracy you suspect exists behind them? Then that changed when you read the story and saw how she writes herself? I'm confused.

Hm.  My apologies.  I shall try to explain in more detail.

Spoiler:

I must confess, I am not used to having such strong emotional reactions to characters; I am not entirely sure what it is about Shadow that riles me so.

Maybe it's just because you can't accept her narrative. That's more than just not liking a character, let alone hating a character. It's how the fic was written that angers you.

I had a similar experience when I tried to read Fallout Equestria: Heroes. The main character kills a bunch of the militia that keeps her home protected, then is let to go free. Well, one of them poisons her leg, but otherwise free. The poison would have eventually killed her, but she comes across a friendly machinist who replaces the leg with a cyber one that's much more powerful. For free.
Jump forward a bit and she's been contracted to kill what appears to be a friendly old lady. She accepts the job because whatever, it's money, and "luckily" it turns out the lady was running some kinda slave traffic in her basement that nobody knew about. The "hero" takes the little filly slave from down there and immediately sells her to some other slavers. Then turns around and kills them all as soon as they turn their backs. She gets incredibly wounded but, hey, turns out the filly is a trauma doctor.

You're basically being emotionally railroaded. The fic is telling you what you're supposed to be thinking and you're not accepting the narrative, much like I couldn't accept the way the author of Heroes constantly twisted the world around Silver in order to paint Silver as still being a hero and prevent her from suffering any real consequences for her actions.
Shadow is being a traitor and an asshole but the fic insists she's the hero so you're being forced to accept everyone else as being the bad guys.

...Hum.  An interesting point.  And because the story is Shadow's autobiography, edited by one of her descendants, my lack of acceptance of the narrative would be placed at her hooves...  Which would naturally lead me to the conclusion that, since it is the narrative's relation to her that I find unacceptable and she wrote the narrative, she was being mendacious to make herself look better.  And if this is her idea of making herself look better and can be assumed to not drift too far from the true historical facts (for such deviation would be noticed), then the matters that she's covering up must be very bad indeed.  And then one commences reading between the lines of this and other Winningverse fics...
That said, it is rather disturbing how easily the hidden dark history comes together.

(Oh, and I couldn't get very far in Heroes either.  :)  I'm pretty sure that I didn't manage to get to the middle of the second chapter...)

Also, you're quite right: however fun it is to read, it certainly is fun to talk about.  :)

...And I seriously now want to read the true story of Shadow Kicker as I've been deducing it.  It sounds pretty awesome.  Though, then again, it might be that a lot of it is like Stalin's rise: slow, methodical, devastatingly effective, and very boring to watch.

It might be fun to create a separate topic for this. As additional chapters come out, we could try to dissect them to determine the facts from the bias. We might even have a nearly cohesive story by the end of this prequel story series.

Plus, if history is any indicator, chances are the author might somehow find their way here (like happens with most story threads that end up posted), see us talking about the story within his story, and denounce us as insane.

It might be fun to create a separate topic for this. As additional chapters come out, we could try to dissect them to determine the facts from the bias. We might even have a nearly cohesive story by the end of this prequel story series.

Plus, if history is any indicator, chances are the author might somehow find their way here (like happens with most story threads that end up posted), see us talking about the story within his story, and denounce us as insane.

Haha!  Yes!  Oh, and perhaps we should even get cameos in one of the stories as ranting conspiracy theorists of ill repute!
(Note: I am entirely serious in my delight at this prospect.  Yes, I know that I am weird.)

What do you think might be extracted from the two interludes of earth pony politics?  They portray important events, but they are by a different author, one presumably unconnected to the Kickers, and written long after the fact.  And, strangely, in them it is much easier to sympathize with everypony involved...

It might be fun to create a separate topic for this. As additional chapters come out, we could try to dissect them to determine the facts from the bias. We might even have a nearly cohesive story by the end of this prequel story series.

Plus, if history is any indicator, chances are the author might somehow find their way here (like happens with most story threads that end up posted), see us talking about the story within his story, and denounce us as insane.

Haha!  Yes!  Oh, and perhaps we should even get cameos in one of the stories as ranting conspiracy theorists of ill repute!
(Note: I am entirely serious in my delight at this prospect.  Yes, I know that I am weird.)

What do you think might be extracted from the two interludes of earth pony politics?  They portray important events, but they are by a different author, one presumably unconnected to the Kickers, and written long after the fact.  And, strangely, in them it is much easier to sympathize with everypony involved...

Huh, I felt it contained the same themes of a biased narrator.
The assassin, carrot, stood by and listened to Celestia's reasoned plans as to how to reform the earth pony sociopolitical system such that there would be less disparity between the bottom and top. He felt her offers were reasonable and portrayed Apple Tree is being a pretty darn aggressive idiot, rejecting the plans less due to them taking so long and more seemingly due to them not involving taking out what passed for the earth pony nobility entirely.
He then immediately suggested that the pegasi support for his reelection could be used to start his own revolution, which is why Carrot immediately killed him.

...actually, I forget if Carrot was even the narrator of that piece, but despite the title being "The Assassination of Apple Tree by the Coward Carrot ___" (I don't rightly recall what his "last name" was), it seemed to portray Carrot in as kind a light as possible.
I mean, Carrot was Apple's second-in-command. The guy had a similar educational and societal background. I would think they'd have to of been on the same page most of the time throughout Apple's campaign...

Spoilers for said segments:

Yes, Apple Tree did not trust Celestia.  His experience with distant figures of power was quite negative, and he had no reason to think she'd be any different.  Her intentions may have been genuine, but the words that she used to convey them had been used before for lies.  And he was a simple farmer, with no political education.  He was wrong, but he was not inexcusably wrong, and the last we saw of him, he was despairing over how to properly help his people.

Shadow Kicker, on the other hand, was a clan head and Ephor of Pegasopolis and knew Celestia and various other prominent members of the Unicornian court both personally and professionally.

In my experience, a protagonist like Shadow Kicker is quite unusual in the Winningverse.  Granted, I do not read all of the stories, but the characters, heroes and villains alike (including one character who is a despicable villain in one story and the villain protagonist in another), tend to be, if not necessarily good, driven by sensible and often likeable motivations.  They fail at times, of course, but they are not lauded as heroes for doing so.  Shadow Kicker seems to me to be a significant outlier.

I understand he was vilified for his actions and is, as such, a tragic figure. It still seems odd that there's so much disparity between Apple and Carrot given they have been working so closely throughout the campaign and are best friends.
I mean:

His experience with distant figures of power was quite negative, and he had no reason to think she'd be any different.  Her intentions may have been genuine, but the words that she used to convey them had been used before for lies.  And he was a simple farmer, with no political education.  He was wrong, but he was not inexcusably wrong, and the last we saw of him, he was despairing over how to properly help his people.

This should apply to Carrot, as well. Carrot certainly supported taking down the magistrates, though not quite with Apple's passion, which is why Apple was the head of the campaign.

Celestia, I would agree, has been ignoring the earth ponies entirely. That or only been interested in the representatives sent to her capital, which actually sounds a bit more likely. They wouldn't portray the situation as being as bad as it is, and the unicorns seem to create work for Celestia such that she can hardly pay attention to anything else.

I guess you could blame Celestia for trusting the earth pony magistrates' reps instead of viewing them with the scepticism she should view the unicorn nobility with, but that's a bit stretching it. If people don't bring problems to her attention she's just not going to know the problems exist.
Heck, given it's Sunbeam's goal to destabilize both the pegasi and the earth ponies so that they can be folded into the unicorn political system, she might have actively prevented Celestia from learning about the issues with the earth ponies while she worked on defaming the pegasi.

Celestia's also an immortal, so her 30 year plan WAS the short-term solution :P

This should apply to Carrot, as well. Carrot certainly supported taking down the magistrates, though not quite with Apple's passion, which is why Apple was the head of the campaign.

Aye, but Carrot was more conservative, more fearful of war.  To Apple Tree, justice was worth fighting; to Danver Carrot, a lack of fighting was worth a lack of justice.  And, had he been correct in his assessment… in thirty years, the system would be reformed.  No great blood would be spilled.  Earth pony democracy would endure, as would its semi-sovereignty.  Danver Carrot and Apple Tree were close to each other, but they were on opposite sides of thin line.  Before, that line had not mattered, but when the pressure got high enough…

Heck, given it's Sunbeam's goal to destabilize both the pegasi and the earth ponies so that they can be folded into the unicorn political system, she might have actively prevented Celestia from learning about the issues with the earth ponies while she worked on defaming the pegasi.

On that note, I've just finished reading the only so-far-posed chapter of Rise of the Phoenix Empress, and AU story diverging, it would appear, after the Rebellion and starring Sunbeam Sparkle.  Who continues to, even with her faults, to be more sympathetic and likeable than Shadow Kicker's portrayal of herself.  Oh, and it contains this, among other things:

Spoiler:

Yep, I'm sure that everything's aboveboard there.

Celestia's also an immortal, so her 30 year plan WAS the short-term solution :P

Of course.  To her, it makes perfect sense.  To the earth ponies, particularly the simple farmers who's only experiences with politics are the soft-hooved magnates collecting taxes and making empty promises?  To the ponies who haven't seen Celestia in decades because she's dwelling in faraway luxury among the unicorns?

Kay, well, I haven't read any of the latest story, so that's a good place to leave off. G'night, hinds.

Goodnight!

From Rise of the Phoenix Empress:

From Rise of the Phoenix Empress:

Can you post that in a separate topic for the fic? I want to read it after I've read the chapter.

I am in the process of making that now.  :)

[O. Hinds]

Oh, discussion of alternate alternate character interpretations of Shadow Kicker are also welcome. If you've got another explanation, feel free to share it.

[O. Hinds]

FYI, I am going to use this thread for discussion of the fic(s) in general.
Our theory is a common understanding of the fic(s), but discussion of the fic(s) in general should be entertained.

Oh, certainly! Do you think that I need to change the title? I'm not sure how, or even if I can.

In talking about Celestia in regards to these fics I realized how much I loved Celestia due entirely to the fact that the way she's written in these fics aggravates me.
...which is to say the character aggravates me. There's nothing wrong with the depiction, characterization, dialogue, behavior, etc. The author did a fine job of making a character I find incredibly peeving.
Of all the things Sunbeam is capable of, let alone outright guilty of, she has had a consistent behavior of being incredibly doting to her daughter. Taking her where ever she can. Spends tons of time teaching her slash playing with her.
Given all of that, Celestia should have demanded context to this injury. It was completely inconsistent. As bad as Sunbeam could be, there was clearly still a devoted mother.
But no, she attacks her. The battlemage counterattacks on instinct and Celestia paralyzes her without a thought, leaving the mare without so much as a single diagnosis spell. For all she knew, Sunbeam could have died of internal injuries moments later. She was certainly battered enough.
Ugh.

Well, you have to remember that Celestia is probably extremely emotionally compromised at the moment. She's just (particularly from her immortal perspective) been through either the worst or second-worst civil war in Equestria's history (which was in large part her fault, she no doubt feels, just like the fall of Luna), a lot of people almost certainly still think that she's a tyrant, just a victorious one it's unwise to speak ill of, it's been revealed just how fragile peace in Equestria was, and she's been placed in a position of absolute power to do good through circumstances she finds horrible. And that's just the straight presentation; with our theory, there's a good chance that she by this point knows all of what Shadow is up to, is sickened by it, especially since it's being done out of devotion to her (and she may reciprocate despite herself), and, what's worth, can't think of any better way to proceed. That she would be not in her right mind, particularly where her immediate subordinates and the defense of her subjects are concerned, is not just excusable but more or less expect. In fact… perhaps she was taking out some of her anger at Shadow? Shadow and Sunbeam are her right and left hooves, have dark pasts, plotted to increase her authority over Equestria… but Sunbeam, with an excuse, she can actually hit. And then she feels terrible about it, of course. The more I look at this Celestia, the more she seems a woobie…

Sunbeam's pretty annoying, too. She lies to herself too much. Her internal dialogue is inconsistent with the sort of manic, amoral, playful trickster demeanor she always had in the first fic. You remember when she first showed up? Grinning like an idiot at the kickers disabling those guards, then hitting on Shadow really hard?
She is now clearly not much of a sexual being, even if she expects it of others.
She enjoys hurting others, that cannot be denied. She enjoyed those guards being hurt for doing their duty, she enjoyed torturing that criminal in that fight to the death. She's a sadistic sociopath, plain and simple. Yet she insists that she does not enjoy being despicable. Being cruel for its own sake is not her motivation, but enjoying cruelty IS one of the perks of her position.

Partly, the war probably changed her too. Partly, she quite possible was acting a lot before, putting on a useful guise. Partly, I expect that she does lie to herself a lot, likely as a result of Celestia's work.

Honestly, the moment she revealed the rocks, I knew what was going to happen. Why she couldn't just take to giving her child lashes when a snowball hit I do not know. This was clearly as sub-optimal an opinion as one could get.

A lash for a missed interception is less direct; all sorts of things could interfere to prevent it, and there's nothing actually stopping Sunbeam from lashing Midnight without an excuse. A stone is direct. If you do not block it, you get hit and hurt. If you block it, you can stop it, and you can do it whenever and whyever it was thrown.

Feh. And what's with that chapter intro? Hinds, Celestia clearly isn't dead in the Winningverse based on what you've said previously. Is this some kind of alternate alternate universe?

Yep. Most Winningverse stories don't carry the "Alternate Universe" tag, and, more to the point, this one is in the Winningverse group AU folder.

Kay, caught up with the latest chapter.
Pretty darn fantastic, that.
I am quite proud of Sunbeam.

Her fall allowed her enemies to see some of her best qualities. The love and loyalty she shares with her daughter. The desire to see her succeed, even in another's care. Her restraint at pursuing vengeance. Her humility in accepting her situation insofar as she had to in order to continue on. Her diligence and her earnest desire to see the kingdom flourish on every level.

If greater proximity to Celestia is a result of this ascension. Sure, they already interact fairly often, but never on any meaningful level... Celestia seems to just hope for the best in Sunbeam and Sunbeam, in turn, disappoints her merely by having a different definition of her best.

...I mean, inevitably Sunbeam betrays Celestia, but there's a real chance of growth with Sunbeam as a result of this change. She will be in a position she DOESN'T have to fight to keep, for example. You gotta wonder what that will do to her psyche... no longer being a self-made unicorn of humble beginnings, but a reborn alicorn only concerned with the safety and prosperity of the realm throughout her eternal reign.

I am very excited to see what comes next.

Agreed! :D

[O. Hinds]

And... again, this is by the same author as The Lunar Rebellion and many other Winningverse stories, including both the original and the flagship. They clearly know how to write likeable characters and not have "heroes" praised for being foolish, abrasive traitors. I realize that it's extremely unlikely, but a tiny part of me is thinking that Shadow Kicker being an outlier in what's meant to be her autobiography must mean something.

[O. Hinds]

And the little hints, the bits about forcible dissolution, lingering resentment, the Cult of Shadow, how good Gale is as Grand Vizier, Gale as spymaster and Shadow's talent being asymmetric warfare... I really wonder if this is all some sort of long and elaborate twist. If so, that would be awesome, though I expect that many readers would be upset.

[O. Hinds]

She has completely grasped Celestia's unintentional teachings regarding the value of immortality.

Did you mean "immorality"? I'm not sure what the sentence is saying here otherwise.

Shadow just embraced that. Understood the lesson Celestia didn't meant to teach. That she needed a morally defunct mare to guide her empire, but she also needed to not know about the deeds done in her name. It's only natural that Shadow would strive to be better than Sunbeam ever was at this game.
This is because Sunbeam never really tried to hide it all from Celestia. Sunbeam thought her job was to do what Celestia couldn't, so that she could be the bad pony. Sunbeam likely took the more amoral option, at times, simply because she thought it was expected of her. Celestia doesn't appear to have ever dissuaded Sunbeam of that notion... at least, not before dismissing her. I can't help but feel that, deep down, Celestia didn't really want to. Like she stated above, she recognizes it's more "effective".

:D

For this reason, Shadow then moved to do the same as Sunbeam with one exception... not let Celestia know.
Shadow is no more morally complex than any pony appointed by Celestia due to their effectiveness through cruel and amoral means could be... Shadow's only advantage is the mere knowledge that Celestia doesn't want to be reminded that these are the ponies she decided to build her empire with.

Hm, yes… Good point. Shadow would try to hide what she's been doing from Celestia, and because of the genuine belief that it's better for Celestia that way. I wonder if Celestia ever worked it out? She probably suspected, but I doubt that she'd want to work it out.

[O. Hinds]

And that's just the straight presentation; with our theory, there's a good chance that she by this point knows all of what Shadow is up to, is sickened by it, especially since it's being done out of devotion to her (and she may reciprocate despite herself), and, what's worth, can't think of any better way to proceed. That she would be not in her right mind, particularly where her immediate subordinates and the defense of her subjects are concerned, is not just excusable but more or less expect. In fact… perhaps she was taking out some of her anger at Shadow?

I don't think Celestia dislikes Shadow in the least. Even ignoring all the suppositions Sunbeam makes about Celestia and Shadow potentially sitting in a tree, kay eye ess ess eye en gee, it is known by her and others that Celestia offered Shadow ascension and Shadow turned it down. Clearly, Celestia sees Shadow as an equal, as that's the first thing she took issue with when Sunbeam suggested ascension; that Sunbeam would consider herself an equal to Celestia.

Aye, aye; I was working on the assumption that Shadow had told Celestia. Though the offer of ascension could have been Celestia breaking down in despair and offering her power to somepony who could govern effectively.

And good grief were you right about this being fun to talk about! I'm not even sure how many orders of magnitude of depth the Winningverse has gained!

[O. Hinds]

...Though one of my less-grimdark-ponies-loving friends did, when I attempted to share this with him, reply with "If I hear another word about dark evil backstabbing ponies based on the show called "friendship is magic" I'm gonna stick a knife in my jugular." Eh, to each their own.

[O. Hinds]

...Though one of my less-grimdark-ponies-loving friends did, when I attempted to share this with him, reply with "If I hear another word about dark evil backstabbing ponies based on the show called "friendship is magic" I'm gonna stick a knife in my jugular."  Eh, to each their own.

Well, being a grimdark-lover, I look forward to his contribution to the cause :D

Unlikely, I'm afraid. He has no problem with grimdark in general (I met him in an RPG where he was playing a cannibal ex-child-soldier) but doesn't seem to like it applied to ponies.

[O. Hinds]

Read the new chapter.
I'm really liking Sunbeam.  :D
Also Midnight.
I am wondering what will happen when Luna returns to find her sister eight centuries dead, though…

Spoiler:

So that's the end of the story.  I wonder if we'll get any more of this alternate universe?


Oh, and swicked, have you thought of reading any more of the Winningverse?

[O. Hinds]

Reading the new chapter. Not even done with it yet.

“I cannot say if I will ever succeed in showing you how to be a righteous mare, Sunbeam, but I will never cease in attempting it. Perhaps that makes me a fool, for wishing to believe in something impossible. If so, then I contend that it is the best sort of folly. How will my little ponies ever become better if their Princess does not believe in them?”
One of my ears flicked in irritation. “I do not require redemption or salvation, Celestia. I do not know whether your insistence upon ‘believing’ in me is flattering or insulting. In either case, it is neither required, nor desired.”
“I know your feelings on the matter, Sunbeam.”

What the heck is wrong with Celestia?
How in the heck can she claim to knew Sunbeam's feelings on the matter if she doesn't take them to heart?
Sunbeam DOES NOT FEEL BAD ABOUT ANYTHING SHE HAS DONE.
Celestia keeps insisting that she thinks Sunbeam could become a righteous mare, but has NEVER instilled in Sunbeam what that means. Ever.
Sunbeam doesn't know what Celestia wants her to do other than, she supposes, be less effective. To be incompetent, perhaps. To be something Sunbeam honestly does not feel Celestia, let alone the realm, truly wants from her.

Celestia's aspirations can be quite noble, but what she's doing right now IS idiotic.

...Hm, I had a thought on this, but a: I'd probably better wait until you finish the chapter and b: I need to be heading to class in around six minutes.

I wonder if she's like this with the royal baker.
"Okay, Celestia, what kind of cake do you want? Chocolate, vanilla, strawberry, cheesecake, poundcake... the possibilities are endless, really. I just want to make the best possible cake for your birthday!"
"Look into your heart, my dear baker. You'll know what to do."
"...okay, uh... vanilla?"
"I'm so disappointed in you."
"....strawberry?"
"Don't worry, I'm certain you can pick the right one. I believe in you!"
"...........I don't understand."
"I know, but I have faith. I mean, how will my little ponies ever become better at selecting confections if their Princess does not believe in them?"
"What... I don't... what?!"

:D

[O. Hinds]

And I kind of get the impression that Celestia, in the immediate aftermath of the war, was simply tired of ruling and immortality and heavily doubting her own competence. And a bit mentally unstable, given her snap temper.

Of course, this happy ending is an alternate Winningverse. In the main continuity, I doubt that things turned out so well. In the case of Sunbeam alone, well, consider her realization of what she was doing to her daughter. Even if Celestia eventually succeeded in making Sunbeam realize, how much more damage would have been done in the meantime?

[O. Hinds]

Oh, right, kay.
Yeah, that makes more sense than Celestia finally understanding why all of her efforts with Sunbeam kept failing.

Aye. Snapping into an overreactive fit of violence, being desperate to redeem and see the good in others, her offer of her crown and immortality (and, for a former immortal, fifty years might still be a good life, but it's such a small fraction of thousands of years), her happiness when she can just settle down with Shadow...

She was already expressing discontent and self-doubt prior to the war, she had to banish her mad sister (which she no doubt looked on as both a failure on her part and a warning of what can happen when alicorns go bad) less than a hundred years ago, much of the war can be laid at least indirectly at her hooves, and a great many of her subjects likely still quietly hate her. Under those circumstances, is it any wonder that she just wanted out? The only thing keeping her there was the fact that she still cared for the wellbeing of her ponies, but when she found someone else to take care of them, well, the choice was easy. In the main Winningverse, she seems to have gotten over this eventually, but I imagine that it took many decades.

Celestia would have never really realized, though... that's the point. If she realized all that Sunbeam needed was princess-sense, though, then it would be as simple (or difficult) as casting such a spell.
After which she might have considered giving more of her ruling class such a sense; it certainly helps put things in perspective.

Right, Celestia never realized the Princess-sense thing, but she might, with a few more decades of work, have induced some degree of empathy in Sunbeam some other way. I rather doubt the likelihood of this, though (After all, what reason has Sunbeam to change? She and Shadow have been having far more success with their scheming and dirty dealings than Celestia has had with her light-touch niceness, after all.), and it's likely that it would be too late even if it did hapen.

[O. Hinds]

On a related note, I just found this. It's written by a different author than The Lunar Rebellion and Rise of the Phoenix Empress, but it appears to be the only other story set in the Lunar Rebellion era (in this case, ten years after the war, from the little I've read so far). It's also in-universe an account written by Midnight, so, while we might need to correct for the different author, we still could possibly extract some useful data from it. (Present-day Winningverse fics also have a variety of authors, but, since those are set nine hundred years later, there's been ample time for the in-universe ideas to diverge.)

[O. Hinds]

Oh, and have you considered reading any other Winningverse stories? I think that that question got lost.

[O. Hinds]

Oh (I seem to say that a lot), and if Sunbeam does drive Midnight away, one guess who's hooves she'll be driven into.

[O. Hinds]

Good points. You seem to have a better grasp of this Celestia than I do.

[O. Hinds]

Good points, again. I was thinking of the princess-sense revelation of the full extent of the damage, but then, I suppose that Sunbeam just really wasn't seeing most of it previously.

[O. Hinds]

From Midnight's Shadow:

Spoiler:

I suppose that it could have been a genuine accident and Shadow could really be uninvolved... but I doubt it.

[O. Hinds]

Celestia probably realized that in the Phoenix Empress continuity.

[O. Hinds]

Late on, I mean, when she saw how well Sunbeam was doing.

[O. Hinds]

Yes... as interesting as you are to talk to and even though I kind of do like the sound of my own voice*, it would be quite nice to have more input. Do you think that we ought to post an invitation in the chat thread? I put one up when I made this thread, but perhaps they missed it.

*Yes, I know that that doesn't apply to text.

[O. Hinds]

Why do you like the other Winningverse stories?

Weeeeell, in a revelation that will likely shock you to the core, a lot of it is probably just the worldbuilding. :D Particularly now that I'm viewing it in a new light. Other than that… I'm not sure, really. Part of it is likely sociological study (the more data I have, the better; I'm bad enough already), but, knowing me, worldbuilding could quite possible be enough all on its own.

Are they at all similar to these?

Hmm… Not especially, I'd say. Midnight's Shadow may be, but I've only just started reading it and therefore can't really recommend it at this time.

I don't particularly feel like reading slice of life stories right now, particularly not any where shipping is involved. These stories have barely addressed shipping, but it looks to be a common theme in the Winningverse. That Cloudkicker is promiscuous, particularly.
It's all very off-putting.

I was going to say that shipping was actually much less prevalent than you might have heard, but then I started looking over the stories I'd read… Yeah, shipping does seem to creep a little bit into most of them. I found… two. One of which is another alternate universe. Well, if you're interested, here's that one, and here's the other.

Do any of them primarily involve Celestia, though?

Not that I know of; sorry. That would be nice, though, assuming that it was well-written.

[O. Hinds]

Oh! Regarding your earlier question, it looks like there is a story about Celestia. It's in the DeadDerpyVerse alternate Winningverse, though, and very short. I'm reading it now.

[O. Hinds]

And finished.

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

I'm not sure where the PoD of the DeadDerpyVerse is, but the story was very much about Celestia.

[O. Hinds]

I think "destiny" appears to be some sort of special sense or insanity only Celestia of the Winningverse feels since her sister, mantled-up and all, doesn't seem to empathize with Celestia. Not only does she not feel that Shadow was meant to have her mantel, she doesn't seem to acknowledge "destiny" as justified reason to take it from her.

Yeah. I mean, yes, some universes, including some poniverses, do indeed have destiny as an actual force, when only one person seems to really believe in it and is repeatedly proved wrong about it…

I am far, far from convinced Shadow would have even been a competent ruler, btw. She's very loyal to Celestia, yes. She would do anything Celestia asked of her except something that would cause Celestia pain. She... doesn't seem like a strong second ruler in a diarchy.

Aye. One way or another, it would end badly. I mean, among other things, if Shadow kept up her strategy of using unpleasant methods to support Celestia behind Celestia's back… probability says that she'd slip up eventually.

I'm rather glad she dies, and continue to question why she would have a cult following. Maybe Celestia kept it alive in memory of Shadow? I could see this Celestia doing that.

Hm, possibly, yes, though I'm not sure that she'd need to. The Cult of Shadow is basically the private religion of the Kicker Clan, and, well, the modern Kicker Clan is directly descended from the ponies who abandoned Pegasopolis with Shadow.

I can't think of any replies to your other two comments, I'm afraid.

[O. Hinds]

I didn't particularly expect you to, which is why I posted it to the fic.

Celestia's was also a bit overdramatic in the fic. She's a bleeding heart, which is good, but-

One could say that I have known Ditzy “Derpy” Doo since the day she was born, but that would not be accurate. I have known her far longer than that. I knew her when my sister declared a young adventurer named Daring the materfamilias of a new clan in Old Pegasopolis. I knew her even as that clan named me tyrant and usurper, issuing a call to war in my sister’s name. I knew her as I watched her ancestors burn at Maresidian Fields. I know her in ways far more intimate than the father of her foal, or her current lover, Cloud Kicker.

-is not.
Known her far longer? Know her more intimately?
We understand what she means, but it's definitely a different sort of intimate, and it's weird for her to challenge the bond between Derpy and Cloud.

Yes, I rather thought so too. And I'm sorry that I keep agreeing with you, but... I keep agreeing with you!

Though I dunno, maybe those two had only been together for a week.

Can't help you there, I'm afraid; this is the only story in the DeadDerpyVerse I've read, so I don't know the details of its divergence. Except for Derpy dying, obviously.

ANYway, I'd like more info on this Cult of Shadow. What do they do, other than exist? How do they keep their faith fresh? It still seems odd to me that an entirely cloistered group worshipping a dead mare as a goddess (especially when there are actual goddesses about) could remain strong for so long.

Well, partly it's a way of life, for the Kicker Clan a lot like the teachings of Lyequinigus (So much like said teachings in some respects, in fact, that you can still see things that look suspiciously like file marks and the imprint of an older nameplate. But surely Shadow Kicker wouldn't just lift ancient Pegasopolis tradition and claim it as her own creation, right?), emphasizing austerity, community, family, and martial strength. The Kickers have been gradually loosening up, but their compound is still strikingly plain next to its Canterlot surroundings.

Oh, here's a good quote from a non-Kicker::

Which of course also brings up one of the most obvious aspects of the Cult of Shadow: the statues.

Oh, and here's another good quote from the same story (sorry about the shipping)::

I don't remember any particular bits of information on rituals or the like, but that it's such a way of life sort of makes every day growing up in the compound (as nearly all Kickers still do) a ritual to some degree.

Oh, and Cloud Kicker at one point mentions that she doesn't think that Shadow was actually very keen on the cult... because Shadow expressed some distaste for it in her memoirs. Given that we're already doubting anything written by Shadow (with aid from Gale, probably) and the fact that I'd think it very odd that the cult would have survived if Shadow and Celestia had actually tried to put an end to it, I'm inclined to think that this may just have been another ruse. Celestia doesn't seem very keen on being worshipped, after all, so Shadow wouldn't want to look as if she supported it...

[O. Hinds]

The thinker in those quotes is Sparkler, by the way, a Doo by adoption (adoption unusually late in life, no less). And I don't recall any dislike of Shadow that strong ever being heard voiced instead of just thought...

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