Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Moodyman90]

Define dead. Cause the very first Megaspell according to Fallout Equestria was in fact a healing megaspell that was so powerful that even the recently killed was healed to the point of bringing them back. Applesnack AKA Steelhooves, died in Big Mac's hooves before the spell went off and brought him back.

That's one reason everybody was pissed at Fluttershy at the time for making such a powerful spell, they had to refight the whole damn battle all over again.

[thatguyvex]

cb5 wrote:Uhhh . . Megaspells couldn't even bring back the dead.

...what?

Uh... true statement?

I don't know. Would Rampage's regen talisman count as Megaspell level? I think the first healing Megaspells Fluttershy used could get recently dead back on their hooves, but only, like, within seconds of fatal injury.

Really, DnD style healing magic is best healing magic, but it ruins all drama, which is why you rarely see it used in stories.

[cb5]

Uhhh . . Megaspells couldn't even bring back the dead.

...what?

Failed heart in a pony = a dead pony.

I'd be a million times easier to just use a donor dna, rather than accidentally kill everyone.

Stitching together pony's dna without long term testing to make sure it's safe would be like treating heartburn with strychnine, sure it soothes and coats the heartburn, but you still have one dead person afterwards.  It would be like if someone got shot in the foot treating it by rubbing the person's neck with aloe vera, or performing cpr to a person shot in the face.

Next thing you know you're going to tell me a tank has 6 pedals for 4 directions.

[Derpmind]

Uhhh . . Megaspells couldn't even bring back the dead.

...what?

Failed heart in a pony = a dead pony.

I'd be a million times easier to just use a donor dna, rather than accidentally kill everyone.

Stitching together pony's dna without long term testing to make sure it's safe would be like treating heartburn with strychnine, sure it soothes and coats the heartburn, but you still have one dead person afterwards. It would be like if someone got shot in the foot treating it by rubbing the person's neck with aloe vera, or performing cpr to a person shot in the face.

Next thing you know you're going to tell me a tank has 6 pedals for 4 directions.

Let's be honest here, it doesn't work without building a house of cards to justify the magic working in a logical way that jives with reality. Fiction!

[cb5]

Define dead. Cause the very first Megaspell according to Fallout Equestria was in fact a healing megaspell that was so powerful that even the recently killed was healed to the point of bringing them back. Applesnack AKA Steelhooves, died in Big Mac's hooves before the spell went off and brought him back.

That's one reason everybody was pissed at Fluttershy at the time for making such a powerful spell, they had to refight the whole damn battle all over again.

Oh that's easy, there's medically a difference between dying and biologically dead. When you die your brain cells start to die and after several minutes of being dead no amount of anything will ever make you anything more than a vegtable. If you are dead for more than seven minutes it is not medically advisable to revive someone cause chances are they're going to be a permanent vegtable.

Sure after those seven minutes you would biologically be alive if revived, but you wouldn't have a brain cause your brain cells would be deader than a doorknob.

[Moodyman90]

And it really boils down to how much you're willing to not care about the details.

Also, even if there was an explanation for it all other then "magic"... just where would it fit into the story? Exposition is find and dandy at times and helps flesh out and make the setting more real, but sometimes it just doesn't do to write a biology paper about the plausibility of magic flux created "blanks" being used as free donor organs in the middle of a group of chapters that include the introduction of Rainbow Glory, Scotch getting lungs filled with chlorine, Boo's introduction, Discord coming back if only briefly, and the revealing of the tragic backstory of one of the story's villains.

[cb5]

Let's be honest here, it doesn't work without building a house of cards to justify the magic working in a logical way that jives with reality. Fiction!

Let's be honest here, it was never stated how the blanks were made in the machine.  Were they grown rapidly, stitched together, or printed, or used cellular cultures?  We'll never know.

I'm not saying that it couldn't have been done by randomly throwing together dna for the blanks, rather why spend $100 billion when you can get the same results for $1 billion just by using donor dna?

[StoneSlinger88]

They could've found a white pony with no health defects and used her/his DNA. *shrugs* Occam's Razor.

[SilentCarto]

They could've found a white pony with no health defects and used her/his DNA. *shrugs* Occam's Razor.

But the blanks randomly come out as either male blanks or female blanks. It's clearly not using any individual's DNA, or they would come out as clones of that individual every time.

I think this whole discussion may be starting from a flawed premise. Here's what Goldie said when Twilight asked him about the copy machine:
"Mix a biological sample with the Flux, and it can produce a perfect biological copy of that pony.  A clone, if you will."
If the 'clone' part is 'if you will', then it's apparently not a clone in the traditional sense.

But ultimately, this could use a good strong dose of Bellisario's Maxim -- "Don't examine this too closely."

[FeatherDust]

By the way, how many other people had Charm pegged as an evil little demon from the get-go?

I did. She was way too excited about the possibility of people getting killed.

"Hoofington will rise bigger and stronger than before

Oh my. I missed that too, the first time. So now I half-expect the Gala to erupt into an invasion when BJ doesn't crown Splendid...

I dunno how you missed it; I've gotten where I get a chill any time somebody says "rise".

That said I don't think he's a Harbinger. (I don't think... but somepony did let those harbinger assassins in...) Remember that "Rise" was the Hoofington motto before the war, and more than one person has borrowed that phrasing that wasn't an actual Harbinger.

Hey, wait just a dang minute... BJ asks who should run the Society, and Boo replies with a photo of Fluttershy and Garnet. Kindness without will and will bereft of kindness...
Did Boo just suggest co-rulership between Splendid and Grace?!

Hmm.... yeah, could be. I hadn't thought of it quite that way. I knew the photo was symbolic but I didn't know of what.

"Well now that grace is out of the way and rampage is tied up at the bottom of a well we can finally gain control of the society"
"TANKS!"
"You're welcome"
"TANKS!"
"YOU'RE WELCOME!"
"TANKS!"
"YOU'RE WELCOME!"
"Firing main canon"
"Oh A tank"
*splatter*

So did you just paraphrase Road Rovers, or is that an older joke that the cartoon borrowed?

[cb5]

They could've found a white pony with no health defects and used her/his DNA. *shrugs* Occam's Razor.

But the blanks randomly come out as either male blanks or female blanks. It's clearly not using any individual's DNA, or they would come out as clones of that individual every time.

Actually no. Clones are not exact copies of the original. Like if someone cloned you then you wouldn't know cause the clone wouldn't look exactly 100% like you. For a species, like ponies, whose sex isn't determined like humans, what I mean by that is humans have either a x or a y chromosome, ponies do not. Meaning rapidly cloning a pony would have them randomly popping out as either female or male.

If you were cloned, and met your clone, you wouldn't realize they were your clone, but people would be asking why you didn't introduce them to your sister.

"Well now that grace is out of the way and rampage is tied up at the bottom of a well we can finally gain control of the society"
"TANKS!"
"You're welcome"
"TANKS!"
"YOU'RE WELCOME!"
"TANKS!"
"YOU'RE WELCOME!"
"Firing main canon"
"Oh A tank"
*splatter*

So did you just paraphrase Road Rovers

Maybe

[FeatherDust]

But the blanks randomly come out as either male blanks or female blanks. It's clearly not using any individual's DNA, or they would come out as clones of that individual every time.

Actually no.  Clones are not exact copies of the original...  If you were cloned, and met your clone, you wouldn't realize they were your clone, but people would be asking why you didn't introduce them to your sister.

They are as close as any pair of identical twins, less any environmental effects that might change their appearance.  It would be really obvious that this person looks a WHOLE LOT like you -- more than sisters, people would be asking if you were twins.  (Speakin' as an identical twin -- yes, people notice.  Constantly.)

So yes, if they were using the same base genetic code, the blanks would all be virtually identical.  In fact they'd likely be more identical than even most twins, since they're being cooked up in the exact same device with the exact same inputs.  A lot of the variation between twins comes from little variations in biochemistry and temperature and positioning in the womb, plus a bit of biological randomness thrown in.

But again, the ponies that come from a blank machine are clearly not clones in the traditional, purely genetic sense. Sanguine's family got duplicated with each body at their current physical age, which wouldn't be possible if it were just building a cloned body. These are more in the way of comic-book clones, like a photocopier for people.

For a species, like ponies, whose sex isn't determined like humans, what I mean by that is humans have either a x or a y chromosome, ponies do not.  Meaning rapidly cloning a pony would have them randomly popping out as either female or male.

I -- what -- HUH?  Are you high?  Horses have X and Y chromosomes, just like humans.  Just like every mammal on the planet (except for three or four species of rodent).

Are you trying to say MLPonies don't have mammal-standard sex chromosomes?  'cause in that case I can't argue using science, but I'm still gonna have to see some pretty good proof of that outlandish claim.

[SilentCarto]

For a species, like ponies, whose sex isn't determined like humans, what I mean by that is humans have either a x or a y chromosome, ponies do not.

Okay, you are quite simply making shit up. Feel free to explain your headcanon, but please don't treat it like cold, hard fact. Or even fic-canon.

[cb5]

Just like every mammal on the planet (except for three or four species of rodent).

Actually not every mammal has x and y chromosomes, it's just not evolutionarily beneficial to have sex determined by a y chromosome.  The reason being is think about it, how much more often do you hear about a guy being color blind compared to a woman?  The reason why we have two sets of chromosomes is to reduce the chances of a genetic disease being expressed.  However most of the dna on the y chromosome also is junk dna and the y chromosome, in humans at least, has been degrading and over time most of the functions of the y chromosome have been taken over by other chromosomes instead.  In short having sex determined by a y chromosome is not evolutionarily beneficial.

The blanks and ponies in general could have their sex determined by x and y chromosomes, but considering the blanks are clones sharing the same dna, but randomly popping out as either sex doesn't give much credence to that idea.  It'd be like someone cloning a guy and the clone comes out as female.

[Moodyman90]

This is what I remember about Blanks and the machine that made them.
-Discord , the being of chaos who could break physics with less then a thought, was involved obviously since he was in the next room getting his blood drained constantly.
- Unless there was some kind of input of DNA, the blanks randomly popped out male or female, pure white without any kind of features and appeared to be at an age they should have cutie marks.
- With DNA input the blank would come out as an exact DNA replica, even to the point of the blank being the same age which shouldn't matter but in this case it does, to the point where if you knew what you was doing you could transfer the mind and soul from the original to the copy. And it was good enough that they could fast grow Scotch some lungs and Blackjack some new skin.
- The machine itself seemed to grow pods that would pop open to reveal the Blanks.

What I don't remember, if it was even revealed in the story is
- If it took time (as in days, weeks, months etc.) for a pod to grow into a Blank.
- If time was a factor, at which stage that DNA needs to be added to it to matter. The Scotch and Blackjack clone took what, less than an hour to be ready?
-Just how long did it take them to perfect the Blank making process and (and this really is my faulty memory) was creating Blanks the intended goal?


Also, this was a project under the OIA, in the middle of Equestria's first major war. Honestly safety, regulations, morals, and long term consequences rarely if ever factor in when it comes to scientific progress, especially medical and the like, during war time.
-

[Icy Shake]

Just like every mammal on the planet (except for three or four species of rodent).

Actually not every mammal has x and y chromosomes, it's just not evolutionarily beneficial to have sex determined by a y chromosome.  The reason being is think about it, how much more often do you hear about a guy being color blind compared to a woman?  The reason why we have two sets of chromosomes is to reduce the chances of a genetic disease being expressed.  However most of the dna on the y chromosome also is junk dna and the y chromosome, in humans at least, has been degrading and over time most of the functions of the y chromosome have been taken over by other chromosomes instead.  In short having sex determined by a y chromosome is not evolutionarily beneficial.

1. Please link to a reputable scientific source indicating that there are many mammalian species in which sex is not determined by XY chromosome pairing. As far as I can tell, FeatherDust is correct, as the (admittedly few) abstracts I've seen (e.g. "In mammals, male sex determination, as well as spermatogenesis, is controlled by genes on the Y chromosome," "In mammals, with a few notable exceptions, sex is determined by an XX female:XY male sex chromosome system in which the Y chromosome bears the male-dominant testis-determining gene SRY," both taken from NIH's website) have yet to mention a species of mammal in which sex is not determined by X and Y chromosomes, even when referencing unusual cases, and tend only to point out specifically the platypus as XYXYXYXYXY.
2. It's true that the Y chromosome is materially evolutionarily harmful--over a time frame irrelevant to evolution to date. Right now, and in the time up until now, the Y chromosome has at any rate clearly not been such a disadvantage as to wipe out (all/most) species with XY sexual differentiation. True, at some point that may no longer be the case, but until it actually starts to impact fertility or survival to sexual maturity at a much higher rate, it will have a hard time influencing evolution. And, of course, evolutionarily useless or even harmful traits can persist for very long time periods.
3. While the mostly junk Y is a minor disadvantage in the abstract (and potentially catastrophic if and when the damage to the Y becomes critical), the relevant issue is, it's a disadvantage relative to what? With no competing sexual selection mechanism in humans (or most other mammals), evolution cannot act to remove the XY sexual selection mechanism short of driving the human population to zero. And the fact that the Y is still operative actually highlights this: Y chromosomes with harmful mutations that manifest in ways that prevent or strongly reduce the probability of reproduction are selected out, and the other Ys remain.

[SilentCarto]

What I don't remember, if it was even revealed in the story is
- If it took time (as in days, weeks, months etc.) for a pod to grow into a Blank.
- If time was a factor, at which stage that DNA needs to be added to it to matter. The Scotch and Blackjack clone took what, less than an hour to be ready?
-Just how long did it take them to perfect the Blank making process and (and this really is my faulty memory) was creating Blanks the intended goal?

The length of time to grow a blank isn't clear, but it's a matter of minutes. When Sanguine grew the Scotch and Blackjack clones, the pods were described as growing after the blood samples were inserted, so it would seem that this is not a case of imprinting a new DNA structure onto an existing blank -- the clone is grown from start to finish as a clone.

Blanks were not the intended goal. Goldie told Twi, "This is what we call a blank. Normally I’d show you a complete copy, but with Chimera sealed, all we can do is produce blanks by cycling the systems."

[Moodyman90]

I knew somebody here would remember/look it up. Thank you Silent

[Somber]

Would you like 'Word of God' about blanks?

[FeatherDust]

Actually not every mammal has x and y chromosomes

Yes! EVERY mammal. With the exception of a few rodent species, as I mentioned. Birds, some reptiles, and most insects use a different system, and platypi are really weird and have some kind of bizarre hybrid between the bird and mammal systems (but still have Y chromosomes, plural).

In short having sex determined by a y chromosome is not evolutionarily beneficial.

Evolution doesn't respond to "not beneficial"; only to "harmful". As long as using the Y chromosome scheme isn't actively damaging to the majority of the species, there's nothing to select against it. It's thought that the rodents that have XO genetics -- they lack a Y chromosome so males just have a single unpaired X -- came about because that species' Y chromosome had a serious species-wide flaw, and it got selected against.

The Y chromosome is one of the best proofs of evolution; it's an idiotic design that no intelligent creator would use, but it works, more or less. It must've come about in the very earliest mammals, back when they were still trying to decide whether to be reptiles or not, and it's stuck with the line ever sense.

Which still makes no difference here. On what are you basing a claim that ponies lack XY genetics? If there's some evidence, bring it. If your claim is based entirely on "well Y chromosomes are stupid" that does not in fact constitute evidence of any sort.

The blanks and ponies in general could have their sex determined by x and y chromosomes, but considering the blanks are clones sharing the same dna, but randomly popping out as either sex doesn't give much credence to that idea.  It'd be like someone cloning a guy and the clone comes out as female.

YES! This is the entire point of the discussion. The fact that blanks are not genetically identical is not evidence that ponies lack XY genetics, but rather that the blank creation system is not, in fact, cloning.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Would you like 'Word of God' about blanks?

If this isn't too spoiler-ish, heh, why not ?

[Somber]

Blanks are like if you took DNA and scrubbed out all the bits that gave a pony individual characteristics.  Like mane color, coat color, the specific size of their eyes and their body.  They're a generic pony.  A blank canvas as you will, that you can combine with anything.

[Kippershy]

Somber, the talk of genders in blanks has now got me interested.
Are they all female? Some males? If some are males, is it just that some might just have male parts out of pure chance?

[Harmony Ltd.]

I seem to remember the crowd of blanks in Hippocratic was (more or less) equal part males and females.

[Somber]

It's 50 /50.

[StoneSlinger88]

So it's DNA modified to be a generic template, correct? One they can "plug-in" DNA to harvest organs and tissue for injured ponies, or create a clone army?

[Somber]

Mehs... now has 2 ideas for 57 and doesn't know which is better...

[StoneSlinger88]

Whatever's more fun, Somber. Within the realm of willing suspension of disbelief, of course.

[Exodus Hero]

Mehs... now has 2 ideas for 57 and doesn't know which is better...

 Is it to much to ask for both? :P

[WavemasterRyx]

Mehs... now has 2 ideas for 57 and doesn't know which is better...

Well, I would suggest asking Hinds and Bronode's opinions of course, if it's something you're able to talk with them about.

If nothing else, sir, I would say just pick the option that either you feel like you would want to see in a story, or that will give you the least trouble to write. I have every confidence in your choices.

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