Re: [Official!] Project Horizons Comment Crew Chat thread.

[Frost]

@attack versions


I could see the mounting of some pretty hefty guns at some point, sort of like a VTOL version of the AC-130.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well, apparently there's been some studies to mount a gun turret on your standard, run of the mill transport-version V-22.

[CamoBadger]

Also, I forgot to say that the V-22 has something like twice or thrice the range of an helicopter able to lift the same load.

Yes, but they are less maneuverable. They also aren't as badass as an Apache.

[Frost]

Well, yeah. Apaches are the shit. According to Captain Picard, they're the only thing more powerful than a little boy's wish

[Harmony Ltd.]

RE "AV-22", there's nothing much, just the same few illustrations :

[Harmony Ltd.]

Also, I forgot to say that the V-22 has something like twice or thrice the range of an helicopter able to lift the same load.

Yes, but they are less maneuverable. They also aren't as badass as an Apache.

Yeah, but current helicopters aren't fast enough to escort V-22 as they deliver shit to the landing zone, so...

[Harmony Ltd.]

Launching un-escorted transport aircraft in a contested airzone during a beachhead operation... whatever could go wrong ?

[Frost]

So, my best summary would be that it is less maneuverable than the Apache, but has a bit higher top speed and a little bigger of a payload. Is it worth the expense of R&D, production, training, ect, for that?

[Harmony Ltd.]

General Batshit : "Well then, we'll just proceed to carpet bomb the landing area with nuclear-tipped tomahawks. Simple, elegant, effective"

Lieutenant Jaded : "And batshit insane"

General Batshit : "Good, I see you've been following."

[CamoBadger]

What's that thing's max speed? Apaches can make 180mph if they're on an escort mission.

And generally tactics call for going the speed of the slowest aircraft, so it wouldn't matter overall.

[Harmony Ltd.]

So, my best summary would be that it is less maneuverable than the Apache, but has a bit higher top speed and a little bigger of a payload. Is it worth the expense of R&D, production, training, ect, for that?

Well, most of the R&D (edit : and training costs) are sunk cost already, so it would all depend on the perceived need for aircrafts with a (relatively) limited mission profile, which would be built in relatively few numbers (probably less than a hundred).

Though the US and particularly the Marines are big on ensuring the credibility of their Seaborne Operations capabilities, so eventually I could see them shelling the bucks to be able to not have to send their V-22 unprotected to their landing zone.

[Frost]

So, it's settled, then.

Captain Picard was right, and the Prime Directive was enforced by Teddy Bears piloting Apache gunships.

[Stringtheory]

What's that thing's max speed? Apaches can make 180mph if they're on an escort mission.

And generally tactics call for going the speed of the slowest aircraft, so it wouldn't matter overall.

the Osprey has a max speed of 315mph at sea level, so they're considerably faster

[Harmony Ltd.]

What's that thing's max speed? Apaches can make 180mph if they're on an escort mission.

And generally tactics call for going the speed of the slowest aircraft, so it wouldn't matter overall.

From wikipedia (V-22) :

Maximum speed: 275 knots (509 km/h, 316 mph) at sea level / 305 kn (565 km/h; 351 mph) at 15,000 ft (4,600 m)
Cruise speed: 241 knots (277 mph, 446 km/h) at sea level


Crusise speed alone is almost 100 MPH faster than the 180 MPH you cited.

[CamoBadger]

Eh, unfortunately that would mean either buying new vehicles to match it for escorts (not gonna happen with the current budget) or just dealing with it and slowing down (most likely outcome).

[Ironmonger]

*eyes glaze over*

[Harmony Ltd.]

Second solution is already what's happening, but as I was typing when you posted, the problem is that the whole idea behind the V-22 is their speed, so having to :

1/ slow them down to not outrun their escort
or
2/ send their escort ahead of time so that they reach the landing zone / contested airspace at the same time

negates why they would be used in the first place (speed for the first solution, reactivity & turnover for the second)


Or alternatively you can provide them with jets escort, but then you'd need either :

1/ for a supercarrier to be nearby, negating the reason why V-22 were conceived in the first place (not needing to have a supercarrier nearby to conduct operations)
or
2/ have a squad of F-35B on your ship

Given all the difficulties of the program, and the budget constraints you've pointed, the second solution at this time does not seem quite... realistic.


And really, do you think they'll send an half-billion dollar airplane or two just to escort a few little transport aircrafts ?...

[Harmony Ltd.]

I say just layoff a few thousand marines, and shell-off the half billion dollar it'd take for Boeing to run an half-assed conversion program to turn a few of the currently existing V-22 airframe into escort versions.

[Stringtheory]

I say just layoff a few thousand marines, and shell-off the half billion dollar it'd take for Boeing for them to make an half-assed escort version on the current airframe of the V-22.

But that would be cutting vital American jobs, and we can't have that happen, it would be a threat to our national security!

[Harmony Ltd.]

The marine corp has by itself as many soldiers as the whole French Armed Forces.

"The Few, The Proud"

For what is supposed to be just a "rapid reaction force" with the chronic problem of being under-gunned to conduct long-duration missions, this seems a bit... much.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Also, I just looked it up, and the US Army has, if wikipedia is to be trusted :

561,984 Active personnel
567,299 Reserve and National Guard personnel
1,129,283 total


Holy shit that's a lot of people.

[Frost]

Keep in mind, we're a big-ass country in general. There's a fucking lot of us.

[CamoBadger]

Also, I just looked it up, and the US Army has, if wikipedia is to be trusted :

561,984 Active personnel
567,299 Reserve and National Guard personnel
1,129,283 total


Holy shit that's a lot of people.

Not really. It's less than 1% of the population.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Yeah, if we look at the population numbers...

France : 65 million inhabitants, 230,628 active military personnel (excluding the Gendarmerie)

USA : 300 million inhabitants, 1,456,862 active military personnal.


France : 281 inhabitants per active military personnel
USA : 205 inhabitants per active military personnel


Still, that's a lot of boots. Proportionally almost 50% more than us.

[Ketchup]

The marine corp has by itself as many soldiers as the whole French Armed Forces.

"The Few, The Proud"

For what is supposed to be just a "rapid reaction force" with the chronic problem of being under-gunned to conduct long-duration missions, this seems a bit... much.

USSOCOM has just under the amount of troops that the Canadian Forces have in the Regular Force. 65 thousand compared to 63.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Well, it's true that the US is ranked second army in the world in term of how many active military personnel it has, behind China.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Bottom line : if you want to play World Police you may need to have the troops for it, but you also need to not half-ass your R&D & equipment upgrade / replacement programs.

After all, it's easy enough to put boots on the ground, having them not be killed by the enemy and achieve victory on the field is another thing entirely.

[Harmony Ltd.]

PS : though we should not forget what's maybe the most important things to have :

- A competent officer corp with enough vision to not go into Today's war with the tactics and strategies of Yesterday's.
- An even more competent NCO corp.
- And soldiers willing and able to make do with the fuckups of the previous two ones.

[Ironmonger]

Completely unrelated to everything, I've recently taken an interest in watching professional wrestling. My favorite wrestler so far is The Great Khali.

[Overthepacific]

Completely unrelated to everything, I've recently taken an interest in watching professional wrestling. My favorite wrestler so far is The Great Khali.

Oh man, I used to be so into that it wasn't even funny. My favorite was always John Cena, but I stopped watching it aftter Shawn Micheals left.

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