Re: Gun/Military Thread

[Frost]

Considering how expensive (and impractical for civilian use) those rounds are, I'm not aware of any companies that actually offer those products to civilians--again, out of concern for lack of sales more than anything. If I had to hypothesize, though:

Tracers: No special regulation, as they're essentially glow-in-the-dark bullets

Incendiaries: Despite the fact that they'd likely cauterize their own wounds and actually be less likely to kill (if anyone bothered making them in civilian calibers like .223), much like armor-piercing rounds (which penetrate without tumbling and cause less trauma to the body) gun-control groups would likely go apeshit on them (see: "Cop-Killer" armor-piercing rounds) and use their clout to have them banned. Then bitch when gun-rights groups try to use their clout in the same way to get them unbanned

Explosive: Destructive devices; see above

[StoneSlinger88]

For rifles, surplus ammunition often has some sort of AP qualities-- for example, my Romanian 8mm is copper-jacketed steel-core, with only a tiny bit of actual lead in the tip. While it may not be true armor-piercing, it definitely can go through a lot of things (or people).

[Frost]

For rifles, surplus ammunition often has some sort of AP qualities-- for example, my Romanian 8mm is copper-jacketed steel-core, with only a tiny bit of actual lead in the tip. While it may not be true armor-piercing, it definitely can go through a lot of things (or people).

This is true. As you mentioned, it's due to the solid steel core (that's why the range I go to won't let me shoot my Mosin there)

Politicians don't lose their shit about those sorts of rifles, though, because they're not EBR's (Evil Black Rifle) and because Johnny the Gangsta isn't sneaking a five-foot rifle into his waistband.

[StoneSlinger88]

AR-15's aren't exactly easy to hide, either. You've still got, at bare minimum, a three-foot rifle. Even with a collapsible stock, you save maybe four inches, and that's to adjust to the shooter's profile, not to conceal it. When I was at a local gun store, they couldn't sell me an AK-- because it could readily accept large-capacity magazines, and I only have an FID (need to be 21 to get a LTC). However, I was perfectly okay in purchasing and walking out with a .50 caliber sniper rifle if I wanted to. Or a semi-auto 12 gauge because it's tube-fed, not magazine-fed.

I also saw a Mauser someone converted to 12 gauge. Not really relevant but just thought it was interesting.

[Frost]

Sorry, I was unclear. AR-15's are the Evil Black Rifles. Evil Cop-Killer Handguns are what can be concealed in the waistband.

Here in Ohio, there's no licensing or permit (You need a permit to carry concealed, but you're fine to buy) Or restrictions. You can buy any federally-permitted rifle at 18, and any federally-permitted handgun at 21.

[Guest]

Alaska is the same way though, I know you could get hand gun at 18 up there.

[StoneSlinger88]

The bullshit never ends.

Seriously, it could fill a fucking encyclopedia. Luckily for me I live in a town where the police chief thinks everyone should be able to own whatever they want, so getting a LTC when I'm 21 is no problem. Collapsible stocks on AR-15's are illegal here in Massachusetts because someone made the argument that a collapsible stock was made to make the rifle easier to conceal.

[Frost]

Oh, wow. That six inches sure is going to make the three feet and ten pounds of jagged metal a lot easier to stuff down your pants or in your winter coat, isn't it?

[Harmony Ltd.]

It's going to be fun for security services once people'll have prosthetics or augments allowing them to hide weapons (blades or firearms) inside their bodies.

[Frost]

It's going to be fun for security services once people'll have prosthetics or augments allowing them to hide weapons (blades or firearms) inside their bodies.

That's partially why I think the classic image of Cyberpunk (people being utterly oppressed by corporate/government overlords) is a bit more on the "gritty" side than the "realism" side. Just as the internet was (and, to a degree, is) a social equalizer, giving everyone a fair voice and the ability to show their opinions on a subject, augmentations like that will be a physical equalizer.

[Harmony Ltd.]

Or this'll simply lead to a round of legislations making it illegal for civilians to possess prosthetics or augments that would allow them to conceal in their bodies weapons, drugs, or any item either / or illegal or a potential security risk.

Because you can't ask people to take off their arms before taking a plane, and the TSA (and its equivelent around the globe) sure won't accept that someone might hide a blade or any kind of weapon inside an airplane.

At least that's the "reasonable" option I would push as a lawmaker on the issue. You won't be able to actually stop people from having that kind of prosthetics or augments if they really want, but at least you'll have legal sway to pursue them if they do chose to have them and you think they could use them to break the law.

[Frost]

But then you open up a whole different can of worms. Specifically, the can on the shelf right next to the 'abortion' can. Telling people what they can or can't do with their limbs would be a political minefield

And, as history shows, good, old-fashioned hypocrisy will come in to say 'hi' as the same folks that scream and rant about how you can't tell a woman to keep a baby proceed to scream and rant about how we can't let lunatics turn themselves into weapons.

[StoneSlinger88]

Range report:

25 yards using a stool as a benchrest and 185 grain PRVI hunting ammo.

[Frost]

Range report:

25 yards using a stool as a benchrest and 185 grain PRVI hunting ammo.

I assume that first putrid excuse for marksmanship the only excuse for which would be firing with your penis shot was a sighting shot?

[StoneSlinger88]

The one on the right I shot first with a clean bore and new ammo. The one on the left were the last five I shot out of fifty rounds; aside from the first and last five, the middle forty were Romanian surplus. That and I wasn't taking it seriously at that point because I realized how much more fun it was to shoot the 200 yard gong rather than paper targets.

[Frost]

Off-topic: my buddy, having just been assigned to Scout platoon, just got picked up by a sniper team. He can't officially go to sniper school until he's an E3, though that happens in March.

[StoneSlinger88]

Finally back from a three-day drill. Went out to the base to qualify with our rifles. Got Sharpshooter, rather pleased. We had an expert infantryman marksmanship instructor transfer to our unit as training NCO, learned a great deal about shooting from him.

Now, here's the fun stuff. We noticed our ammo looked, well, stupid. Like the handicapped kid in the back of class who's allowed to dress himself. We took down the number, M855A1, and looked it up. It's a lead-free "green" bullet. It shoots at a pressure of 63,000psi, nearing proof limits of the M4/M16 series rifles (we had the M16A2). It shoots at a flatter trajectory than standard ball ammunition due to increased bullet velocity. It's held to an accuracy standard of 5.5 MOA in competition to our older lead-filled bullets which are held to a 2 MOA standard.

Oh, and aside from coming close to inflicting overpressure on the gas system, it cuts barrel life by 50%. Wonderful.

[Harmony Ltd.]

By green, do you mean lead-free ?

[Frost]

By green, do you mean lead-free ?

 It's a lead-free "green" bullet.

Yeah, I think that's what he means.

Assholishness aside, that's pretty retarded, Stone. Do you know what prompted the change from the older (and, apparently, better) rounds?

[StoneSlinger88]

The bullets are supposed to have a greater effect on soft targets at greater angles and better penetration-- which they do. Their drawbacks are just screwed up, the Army just hasn't gotten all the kinks out yet (if they ever do before switching to something 'better').

Yep. We had to group and zero (for which we only had 18 rounds due to small supply of ammo), and then qualify, on lead-free ranges. Don't get me wrong, those ranges were definitely the nicest I've ever seen, despite a few problem targets on a couple lanes. The silhouettes were either bright green or blue, the grass was kept short, and the shooting positions weren't crawling with ants.

And this one motherfucker didn't like his score even though he qualified, so he got back in line and shot again. I will say this one more time. We barely had ammo for everyone to zero, let alone qualify-- we have people that didn't even get past zeroing because we ran out of bullets. And this blue-falcon motherfucking shitbag actually gets a good fucking score, and goes again for shits and giggles to see if he can top it while he fucking knows that we're short on ammo and soldiers haven't shot yet. There are very few fucking things in this world that piss me right the fuck off but something like that is definitely on the fucking list.

[Frost]

The quality of the ranges might be because they're fairly new, right?

Anyway, that guy sounds like a douche-sucking cumdumpster. How the rancid asshole did he even get in line before the not-yet-shot-dudes?

[StoneSlinger88]

The ranges are fairly small. We only had ten lanes on the qualify range, and two lanes were down with another one malfunctioning. The way we had it set up was eight people on the range, eight people waiting on the bleachers or in line with their ammo if the firing soldiers were almost done, and more people further up the bleachers or hantging around the range entrance waiting to go. The entrance was just a fence with a gap in it in the middle and a gap on the other side where people turned in empty magazines and filed off the range. We drove there in five-tons, so we just sort of hung around afterwards with the people that haven't shot and helped give them advice with the more experienced sergeants. But we had sergeants gave up their chance to shoot instead of renewing their qual so lower-enlisted guys without a qualify on company record could get one. That's one reason that guy pissed me off so much; he took charity intended for others and turned it into personal gain. Although I saw some that were around the expert infantry marksmanship instructor who didn't take his advice and shot no better than they did on the zero range. I definitely learned more in two hours asking questions and listening to that sergeant than I have in the past year about shooting.

[Frost]

I look forward to my own rifle training. My buddy qualified 'Expert', so they're apparently training folks pretty well down in Benning

[StoneSlinger88]

I think you guys will get more range-time than we did, but if you see a higher-up who knows what their talking about giving a lecture or teaching, drink in every word and ask questions. You'll learn more from them than you will from anywhere or anyone else.

[Frost]

That's pretty universal advice, I think, but thanks nonetheless

[Harmony Ltd.]

By green, do you mean lead-free ?

 It's a lead-free "green" bullet.

Yeah, I think that's what he means.

Assholishness aside, that's pretty retarded, Stone. Do you know what prompted the change from the older (and, apparently, better) rounds?

This is what happen when I post at 2AM from my phone when I'm in bed


But anyway, you said it has a flatter trajectory as if it is a problem. Is it ?

[Frost]

Not necessarily, though compensating for bullet drop is easy enough and the rounds are apparently less accurate anyway (not to mention the stress it puts on the weapon itself)

[Harmony Ltd.]

Yeah, I suppose that to reduce by 50% the barrel's lifespan, the round going off might produce a lot of vibrations shaking the barrel and reducing precision.

[Frost]

Not to mention the pressure on the gas system.

Although, the HK416, with its short-stroke piston system and polygon-rifled barrel would likely handle the rounds far better than the direct-impingement-driven and traditionally-rifled M4, and rumor has it that the military is looking to go to the 416 anyway

[Ketchup]

Got a few interesting anecdotes from my modern history teacher since starting school.

He was a mechanic in the Canadian Army for 21 years, and served in Afghanistan and in the closing stages in Kosovo. He worked near the Americans at Kandahar Airport(the maintenance areas were right next to each other, he once drew us a map of the base), and apparently the Abrams broke down quite frequently in comparison with the apparently highly-reliable Leopards. And they apparently did run out of fuel sometimes, not rarely as I've heard. The logistical prowess of the United States is well needed.

There was a broken front-end loader that the Americans there couldn't fix, apparently lacking an expert. He sent two of the men under him to fix it, under condition that they could use it for their purposes. They fixed it and drove it back, and the Americans were apparently quite bitter about it.
He didn't say this to say 'Americans suck', but rather to illustrate that the smaller size of our army forces our troops to be more resourceful. He also said that the rivalries were friendly.

Much of what the Canadians did there was apparently supporting the flanks of American special forces. Another story he told was about an Afghan spotted in a wadi who looked like he was planting mines. He said that the American elements involved wanted to call an airstrike on the area, which was turned down by the Canadian in charge of the base. They suppressed the guy all night with the LAV-IIIs and moved in on him the next morning. He was planting grapes.
That just shows how difficult it was to find the enemy there.

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