Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[Ironmonger]

Then my dog chase her toy under my desk and stepped on my power strip.

I had that faggot-ass problem with power strips. Try arranging your stuff so the power strip is on a table or something.

[Caoimhe]

Ziptie it to a leg even (no, not your own) or get one of those belkin power strip things that encloses all the plugs in a box.

[Scyto Harmony]

I had that faggot-ass problem with power strips.

Hate to be the buzzkill here, but could we refrain from that, no matter the context?

[Cptadder]

Okay take two, Kiki's in her crate so no worries about sapping my power strip again.

tldr: Glory is more likely to blame herself for not being there during everything than be relationship-endingly angry at Blackjack's actions. Again, that's why I find Gloryjack to be pure but toxic.

Edit: Look at Glory's "Fallen Glory" outburst. That was really sort of an almost juvenile cry for attention: building an identity for herself instead of getting used to new changes. She's not that mature enough to take heed in a situation like this.

First of I did read but I did not want to quote your entire post when I just wanted to react to the whole thing in general.

Now then I can accept your version of the Glory reaction except for Blackjack's reaction. Why do abuse relationships work (And by work I mean why does the abuser and abused stay together). It's because at some level the abused accepts that they deserve the abuse they get. Psychology can tell you a hundred reasons why someone who is abused will come to accept the fact that they somehow "deserve it". But what is broadly speaking universal is that the abuser implies or outright tells the abused that it's their fault for the cheating or physical abuse. Which is something Blackjack won't do because as it's been foreshadowed several times... Blackjack does not understand why Glory is angry. And unless Glory turns into a real bitch (Unlikely, she's never been snippy to anyone or shown long term grudge holding ability) I don't see her going battered wife here.

Remember this reaction does not occur in a vacuum. We may not be able to forecast Glory's reaction with 99% certainty but we CAN predict Blackjack's initial reaction which will be of utter confusion with possible shades of self defensiveness, anger of her own, even more confusion or complete Blackjack breakdown. We know the initial reaction is confusion but we do not know the Glory reaction or the reaction to the reaction.

At this point I'd be happy to say two competing theories at this point. One is the Glory loses her shit and takes out her feelings of betrayal... all that has happened to her in the wastes and everything she is lost on the one she cared for the most who then betrayed her. Lets call that the Hulk Smash theory.

Our competing theory is the Battered Glory Theory where in Glory will take all of the things that have internalize them and drive herself deeper into depression (broadly speaking). I won't try to condense your theory into a single line Caoimhe as it's getting late and I'm starting to lose my grasp on sanity again.

I've kind of thought of this as a situation that could resolve itself in a number of ways, but that the manner it does so depends on who exactly Glory is at this point; specifically, the nature of her poison joke affliction could make a big difference in how she reacts. If the change is purely physical-ex-neurological/endocrinological, then I think you're on the right track. But suppose that the change is deeper (and we do know that the change occurred at the level of muscle and (peripheral) nerve and bone), and we're now looking at a pony that is entirely Rainbow Dash but without her memories and social context, instead possessing Glory's (I'll admit, this possibility is likely only if at some point the poisoning is reversed, but I'm not entirely discounting the potential for her to remain transformed, ultimately becoming an RD/MG synthesis--if nothing else it would be interesting to see an interpretation of Rainbow Dash raised in the Enclave society, and whether she would still spurn the pegasi to seek to help ponies in general); in that case, a more aggressive personality would likely emerge, one prone to reacting harshly to any slight or betrayal, and who finds it difficult ever to back down. But even there, would it be in Rainbow's character to fully disengage, or merely to remain angry, distant, and aloof until some trigger enabled a reconciliation in which she could save face?

Really, I suppose what you're talking about is the most plausible baseline, but I feel like the range of outcomes is pretty broad.

I will not comment on Icy's statement except to note that Killing Joke is a wild card and we do have to factor in that Glory is our replacement Rainbow Dash which might throw a large uncertainty factor into any forcast if we must worry about what Glory's hormones are doing to her.
What? I can't be the only one thinking Glory is already a bit of a basket case because of her previous mental issues tossed in with her recently acquired Poison joke acquired body disassociation complex.

As an open question to the PHCC: could you forgive? And as a follow-up question: Really think about every horror Blackjack has committed since leaving Glory. Did you answer honestly?

Honestly? I don't know. If I were Glory...

From a pragmatic standpoint, removing the primary support for the dangerous insane mare is a terrible idea, not to mention weakening my own loose control over her. Better to be the morality pet for a dangerous anti-hero than to back off and watch her go from the mare you loved to a complete monster worse than even the Hoof has seen before; losing Glory like this would make Blackjack go full Deus, and she's more powerful now that he ever was. Primary focus should be on preventing such events in the future: Blackjack is required to sleep regularly regardless of mood or hurry, and is never allowed to be without one or more trusted, reasonable companions at any time.

From an emotional standpoint things are trickier. The mare you loved nearly killed your sister and a... not exactly innocent but blameless child, and did kill a group of harmless scavengers and your sister's entire squad, likely including her own life's love. Because she refused to listen to your advice and ran off without you, many good people are dead and she very nearly destroyed herself again. Glory even being functional after something like that indicates great strength, and I'd hope she's enough of a medic and a scientist to go with the pragmatic route until her emotions settle a bit and she has a chance to think everything through... but I'm scared.

I'm going to keep this short because of sleep crawling fozeball racket.
Umm... That is to say I could forgive Blackjack in time. Were I in Glory hooves I'd not exactly be having a bad fight and then push for some good old fashion makeup sex considering it was sex that caused this whole mess to begin with and Blackjack ignorance. At this point I'd call it willful ignorance except she's only been out of the 99 for a month now. More over as Glory I'd know what a basket case Blackjack is to begin with and the ruthless side of my personality would point out to me what an excellent teaching tool this would be for Blackjack for me to be pissed at her 24/7 and her understanding why I was angry would help greatly in Blackjack's personality development and future mental heath. And because she did cheat on me and does not understand why I'd be angry I figure it would be easy to stay angry 24/7 around Blackjack for at least a week... or that's what I'd tell myself except Blackjack would have gotten herself blow to bits or another boat dropped on her head before the week is out and as team medical officer I'd not be able to stay angry when I see her get herself hurt again.

Which in my sleep addled mind now puts it in my head that Blackjack being Blackjack will conclude that A. Glory is mad at me about something and that B. When Glory is treating me because I hurt myself being a better pony she feels sorry for me and is not mad THEREFOR = Hijinks!

[FoolNeim]

One of the problems I'm facing is dealing with Glory's reaction to BJ running off. It's not just the sex thing. It's what happened in Yellow River and to Boing. I really don't know what a person would do in situations like that. So I dunno if Glory could keep having a relationship with BJ after that. BJ may very well have killed Lightning Dancer and maimed Dusk. The negatives just keep piling up.

Well, for now, I would think they are broken up. If it were me, I would have a bit of fun Blackjack discovering new types of self-loathing, and Trixie Goddess piling on the schadenfreude, perhaps offering Blackjack a spot in Unity once her downfall is complete, where she could literally forget her troubles (since they'd be shoved into Lacunae). Blackjack being an idiot could also offer Rampage some very brief respite from being an idiot.

In the long run though, considering that Blackjack has a tendency to move heaven and earth, I think there are a number of ways she and Glory could reconcile. Blackjack won over Glory in the first place by being the pony that walks through fire at every turn to help those around her, and won P-21's partial forgiveness the same way.

I don't know whether Glory is going to stay with or leave the group (whether to stay at Chapel, seek medical training at the Fluttershy clinic, or wander about the wasteland in a cloak), but I think the one thing that Glory would have left right now is the desire to help others, since it's the only way to prove her own worth to herself, so in one way or another, Glory will go on and try and do good. Maybe she'll eventually fall.


Anyway I really don't know that it's even possible to say how people would react under circumstances like these. One storytelling advantage here is that the things that happen to the protagonists are so severe that their own sins really don't seem that bad once some time has past. For instance, when Blackjack was en route to Manehatten, blinded, de-limbed, and raped, with her horn cracked, prior to becoming a cyberpony, I figured P-21 would finally tell her he forgave her for everything to console her, even though she beat U-17 to death.

So, yeah, I think it's entirely possible to write things so Blackjack and Glory get back together eventually. Hell, it's not set in stone that Dusk doesn't have her own self-reflection on the fact that she thinks nothing of exterminating surface ponies, and it finally came back to haunt her.

[Ironmonger]

I'm starting to agree more with glory breaking up with blackjack for the time being even though it doesn't make sense to me. The Goddess offering Blackjack a spot in the Unity would be pretty interesting to see.

Hate to be the buzzkill here, but could we refrain from that, no matter the context?

Since I have a sense of honor I'll make a formal apology. If I somehow offended someone I'm sorry, the "fg-word" is not something I usually see as a slur so sometimes I forget about how other people feel. I don't conform to many common morals so there is a few things here and there that I won't understand. That said, if I unknowingly do something offensive just point it out and that will be the end of that.

[FoolNeim]

Oh god please dont break up BJ and Glory.

Well Blackjack kind of brought it on herself. I don't see how a real relationship survives open infidelity, even if Blackjack doesn't understand how relationships outside of Stable 99 work. Or at the very least I don't see it being resolved after a single argument + night on the couch for Blackjack. I actually do think the infidelity would be a bigger issue than Yellow River and Boing. Glory should be a bit desensitized to the violence by now, even if Blackjack nearly killed a child and nearly killed her (somewhat estranged) sister as well, and should understand that Blackjack coming close to losing herself psychologically to the violence of the wasteland is a part of living there.

On the other hand, who else does Glory have left at this point? She quite literally cannot show her face to the Enclave at this point. She has acquaintances in Chapel and I assume she would consider the other members of the Mane 6 "friends," but out of that lot only P-21 (or Rampage if she's in the right mood) would be a decent conversationalist. If this story used a third-person viewpoint then I would see Glory getting drunk with P-21 and complaining about what a shithead Blackjack is before tearfully confessing that she still loves her, but it hurts too much to even talk to her right now. I think that's roughly how I'd feel in Glory's position.

I guess I'm kind of thinking out loud right now. Glory getting drunk is something I don't remember seeing, and could be a fun scene. I suppose Blackjack could overhear it or get a third-party recap from someone else.

About Unity offering Blackjack a spot now that they have a direct connection, I was thinking that the Trixie Goddess would only be one-quarter serious and would mainly do it to mock her pain. She could even spell out to Blackjack exactly how she fucked up, prompting Blackjack to innocently ask Unity if this is what it feels like to be a self-loathing prostitute. There's actually a fair amount you could do with Blackjack and Trixie having a direct psychic link.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

I see glory pounding the shit out of bj then they begin to pound the shit out each other another way wink

[IncoherentOrange]

Since I have a sense of honor I'll make a formal apology. If I somehow offended someone I'm sorry, the "fg-word" is not something I usually see as a slur so sometimes I forget about how other people feel. I don't conform to many common morals so there is a few things here and there that I won't understand. That said, if I unknowingly do something offensive just point it out and that will be the end of that.

As long as you understand why it is not to be used as a slur. All of its meanings (bundle [of sticks], homosexual [colloquial]), colloquial or not, don't mean bad things. (Well, unless you're a bigot that somehow can't get over that other people are different.) It's an entirely-obsolete slur to use, like 'gay', and I think you know why.

[Cptadder]

As long as you understand why it is not to be used as a slur. All of its meanings (bundle [of sticks], homosexual [colloquial]), colloquial or not, don't mean bad things. (Well, unless you're a bigot that somehow can't get over that other people are different.) It's an entirely-obsolete slur to use, like 'gay', and I think you know why.

Five meanings, one is a derogatory phrase. Another is British for a bundle of sticks or the singular form to refer to be tired or to make or unmake rope (Naval) the long form and of course Aussy slang for a cigarette which does not seem odd in Australia but leads to hilarious misunderstandings in America.

[Caoimhe]

Oh god please dont break up BJ and Glory.

This is what I feel without actually saying it, but it's not my story, etc. I've said much already but I think there are ways to develop the relationship and give it new dimensions with everything that's happened. Glory needs her concerns to be known but I still don't feel it's in her character to sever outright, especially since she didn't see what firsthand what clusterfuck BJ's time alone was.

Also, CPT: Maybe I'm unclear again but how do you see that Blackjack doesn't understand why Glory's angry? What I got from the end of the last chapter is mostly anxiety and apprehension. Mainly that she knows she fucked up but doesn't know what her first words will be and how they will be received. BJ's attitude is usually playful and aloof in attempts to relieve attention, so I see it moreso of her just being stupid to cover her fear.

Oh and to bring up the old age thing again: How far apart are Glory and BJ age-wise? It seems Glory was more or less the a boot ensign in the VC, so probably early to mid 20s (depending how long Enclave med school is). BJ is probably older but by how much?

[Kattlarv]

@Cpt: Well, I guess I can accept that ;P

@EP: (BJ+Glory) Imo, BJ only partially brought in onto herself, her new added personality made her fall much deeper into the shit than the normally would.
And oh, I just got a good "reference", anyone played dragon age? You know how much of a total bitch you can make Alistar? (if you play female) He can be made into a very obedient little pet, so to speak. But if you pick the right choices, you can "toughen" him up. Making him less "wimpy" or however to put it. Can still have him quite obedient though xP And overall, I just really snicker at the "sex scene" if you toss him to Morrigan to defeat the arch demon. Cracks me up every time xD Not that often we're allowed to get characters like Alistar though tbh.

[O. Hinds]

I don't see how a real relationship survives open infidelity, even if Blackjack doesn't understand how relationships outside of Stable 99 work. Or at the very least I don't see it being resolved after a single argument + night on the couch for Blackjack. I actually do think the infidelity would be a bigger issue than Yellow River and Boing. Glory should be a bit desensitized to the violence by now, even if Blackjack nearly killed a child and nearly killed her (somewhat estranged) sister as well, and should understand that Blackjack coming close to losing herself psychologically to the violence of the wasteland is a part of living there.

We seem to really disagree about the results of Blackjack having sex with someone else. To me, the fact that she didn't know what she was doing is crucial; as far as she knows, she didn't betray Glory at all, and she wouldn't have done it if she knew that Glory would feel betrayed. Blackjack being dumb is a much less grievous act than Blackjack knowingly and deliberately betraying Glory.

Also, worse than Yellow River and Boing? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the culture Glory was raised in, but, desensitized or not, I don't see "You had sex with someone else without, due to the different culture you were raised in and your ability to put two and two together and get two, realizing how much this would hurt me" being a bigger issue than "You maimed my sister, possibly killed her mate, and crippled a child, all because you were too scared of sleep."

Oh and to bring up the old age thing again: How far apart are Glory and BJ age-wise? It seems Glory was more or less the a boot ensign in the VC, so probably early to mid 20s (depending how long Enclave med school is). BJ is probably older but by how much?

IIRC, Blackjack is 21 and P-21 is 22; I don't think that we ever got a definite age for Glory, though.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

The admiral has set sail...in a tube on a river

[Caoimhe]

Re: scared of sleep

This is another interesting thing. Blackjack's greatest fear is losing her "humanity" and here she committed an act all thanks to a facet that is unique to her new and foreign philology. Being rejected by Glory for this would be positively DEVISTATING to Blackjack's self esteem; showing her she has indeed become a monster, no longer a pony and (knowing her mindset), incapable of love.

With Rampage being moody and very few other adults around Chapel other than P-21, this is would make for a very stressful and depressing situation.

[Icy Shake]

I don't see how a real relationship survives open infidelity, even if Blackjack doesn't understand how relationships outside of Stable 99 work. Or at the very least I don't see it being resolved after a single argument + night on the couch for Blackjack. I actually do think the infidelity would be a bigger issue than Yellow River and Boing. Glory should be a bit desensitized to the violence by now, even if Blackjack nearly killed a child and nearly killed her (somewhat estranged) sister as well, and should understand that Blackjack coming close to losing herself psychologically to the violence of the wasteland is a part of living there.

We seem to really disagree about the results of Blackjack having sex with someone else. To me, the fact that she didn't know what she was doing is crucial; as far as she knows, she didn't betray Glory at all, and she wouldn't have done it if she knew that Glory would feel betrayed. Blackjack being dumb is a much less grievous act than Blackjack knowingly and deliberately betraying Glory.

Also, worse than Yellow River and Boing? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the culture Glory was raised in, but, desensitized or not, I don't see "You had sex with someone else without, due to the different culture you were raised in and your ability to put two and two together and get two, realizing how much this would hurt me" being a bigger issue than "You maimed my sister, possibly killed her mate, and crippled a child, all because you were too scared of sleep."

@FoolNeim: I've never really been comfortable using "infidelity" to describe Blackjack's case. I guess that's because I tend to think of infidelity more in terms of its breach of trust or disloyalty definition than the specialized, euphemistic definition. Because of that, I tend to think of infidelity as being defined separately for each relationship, based on the agreements and understandings reached between the participants therein; in some, an infidelity might result from mere flirting with someone else, in others, having sex with a third party would be acceptable, and in any there may be infidelities resulting from actions unrelated to sex at all. So as far as Blackjack's tryst with Styg is concerned, I think she did nothing untoward unless you think that being denser than freaking osmium is morally wrong. That said, I do think that Glory could be hurt by the revelation, especially given her relative naivete and the stress she is going through because of the Joke; I also imagine that she would find Blackjack's announcement on an open channel to be embarrassing, to say the least, and that would, I think, add to the unpleasant stew of emotions waiting to boil over.

Basically, I think that O. Hinds is right, although I would expect that Glory would have a degree of understanding regarding Blackjack's tendency to get in over her head and end up doing regrettable things in the heat of the moment. That everything leads back to her fear of sleep is true, but I think that if anyone there can understand it it would be Glory. Glory has seen how fragile Blackjack can be; she knows that Blackjack has been suicidal on at least one occasion, and is (unconsciously?) self-destructive much of the time she isn't suicidal. She knows that Blackjack had resigned herself to death, but I forget if they have already had a real talk about the bits of resentment Blackjack held toward Glory for bringing her back, or the guilt about the other ponies who could have benefited from the equipment used to save her. I expect and hope that the sudden alienation each had concerning her respective body comes into play on some level in the resolution of this conflict, as it seems that those two events should be tied together and their contribution to the characters' mental states--at least up to and including Boing for Blackjack, and straight to the present for Glory--should have helped to build up the emotional and psychological stress that was or is wracking their minds.

@Swicked: In chapter twelve it was mentioned he had been on the roster for a decade: "I guessed that over ten years P-21 had really got around." I think that a male became P/U1 at fourteen, but I'm not as sure there.

[Caoimhe]

Do we know what P-number P-21 was at when Scotch was born? I would think he'd be a little older than 22 since I would assume Scotch is older than 8 or so.

[Theta]

The colts don't get their number until they hit breeding age. Assuming a breeding age of around 12 (based on the first recording from P-21's pipbuck) and the fact that they are probably only around 2-3 new colts each year with the restrictions on breeding, P-21 would be around 20 years old

[O. Hinds]

@Hinds
I agree that Blackjack shouldn't be held particularly responsible for her actions, as they were natural for her after having grown up in 99. I don't think Glory's going to be particularly reasonable, is all.
And are you sure P-21 is 22? Is it implied that a single new male comes into circulation every year? I was under the impression that more than one could, so you could advance in number three or four times in a given year as new males hit breeding age (16?).

No, I'm not sure. I also seem to remember that the activation age was fifteen, not sixteen (or, as below, fourteen), but I also seem to remember that, given the original data, the math pointed to P-21 being an octogenarian (yes, really). The issue was Closed shortly after that, I believe, and, while I believe that I came to some satisfying conclusion about the arrangement, I do not remember what that might have been.

@Swicked: In chapter twelve it was mentioned he had been on the roster for a decade: "I guessed that over ten years P-21 had really got around." I think that a male became P/U1 at fourteen, but I'm not as sure there.

...Shoot. I've reported this to Somber. It might be declared to be not a problem, though.

Do we know what P-number P-21 was at when Scotch was born? I would think he'd be a little older than 22 since I would assume Scotch is older than 8 or so.

...Urgh... You know what, I think that I'll stop thinking about this again now. Sorry, but if we go too much further, I'll start trying to work out the math again, I'll probably find that it doesn't work with the given conditions... And shortly thereafter I'd probably be ordered to stop thinking about it again.

[Caoimhe]

Dance, puppets. Sweetie Belle

[Kippershy]

@Hinds
I agree that Blackjack shouldn't be held particularly responsible for her actions, as they were natural for her after having grown up in 99. I don't think Glory's going to be particularly reasonable, is all.
And are you sure P-21 is 22? Is it implied that a single new male comes into circulation every year? I was under the impression that more than one could, so you could advance in number three or four times in a given year as new males hit breeding age (16?).

No, I'm not sure. I also seem to remember that the activation age was fifteen, not sixteen (or, as below, fourteen), but I also seem to remember that, given the original data, the math pointed to P-21 being an octogenarian (yes, really). The issue was Closed shortly after that, I believe, and, while I believe that I came to some satisfying conclusion about the arrangement, I do not remember what that might have been.

An octogenarian? I find that hard to believe, personally. my personal head-canon puts him somewhere around his 30's (specifically, no lower then 32), and Blackjack around 25 or so.
Of course, if Somber said otherwise, then his word is law and lore, but to me, he seems middle aged rather then old geezer.

Don't forget, Blackjack broke him in. He can't be THAT old unless SHE'S that old... and she's far from that old.

[Ironmonger]

Not trying to derail the current topic but I got to thinking about Duty and Sacrifice. At one point they shoot through power armor, which would require some very high-pressure powder loads and possibly spitzer (pointed) bullets, so I'm guessing these are really huge-ass revolvers even for their caliber. Any of you guys have some headcannon on the measurements of the gun or anything like that?

[Ketchup]

@Revolvers
They are based off of this I think.

[Ironmonger]

I just remembered what exactly it was so disregard that. It was when she was fighting Harbingers for the first time I think, and they didn't have power armor. My brain thinks its freaking hilarious to switch things on me.

[Katarn]

My headcanon for Duty and Sacrifice, were, that they are Ranger Sequoia kind of revolvers

[O. Hinds]

@Hinds
I agree that Blackjack shouldn't be held particularly responsible for her actions, as they were natural for her after having grown up in 99. I don't think Glory's going to be particularly reasonable, is all.
And are you sure P-21 is 22? Is it implied that a single new male comes into circulation every year? I was under the impression that more than one could, so you could advance in number three or four times in a given year as new males hit breeding age (16?).

No, I'm not sure. I also seem to remember that the activation age was fifteen, not sixteen (or, as below, fourteen), but I also seem to remember that, given the original data, the math pointed to P-21 being an octogenarian (yes, really). The issue was Closed shortly after that, I believe, and, while I believe that I came to some satisfying conclusion about the arrangement, I do not remember what that might have been.

An octogenarian? I find that hard to believe, personally. my personal head-canon puts him somewhere around his 30's (specifically, no lower then 32), and Blackjack around 25 or so.
Of course, if Somber said otherwise, then his word is law and lore, but to me, he seems middle aged rather then old geezer.

Don't forget, Blackjack broke him in. He can't be THAT old unless SHE'S that old... and she's far from that old.

No no, you misunderstand. Somber didn't say that; the math that he hadn't done (because he is a writer/English teacher rather than a nitpicky physics/engineering major) said that. Thence came the disagreement.

[Ketchup]

Fridge logic. It doesn't usually detract from the enjoyment of the many mediums it appears in, PH is no exception.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

Duty and sacrifice fire 13mm shells. Anything she shoots don't get back up again.

[Admiral Stoic Rum]

Except rampage

[Ironmonger]

Except rampage

Rampage gives zero fucks about everything.

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