Re: [GRIMDARK] Fallout Equestria: Project Horizons Discussion

[O. Hinds]

@atikin:
Ah, thank you, though both of those were already caught by others.
Also, if I may ask, what's the "[size=35]" thing?

So, this is the place to discuss Project Horizons?

It is, yes!  Welcome!  And thank you for the compliments.  :)

[joltius]

Also, if I may ask, what's the "[size=35]" thing?

It's an html-tag. It supposed to enlarge size of text to 35 points, but it doesn't work on this forum, though.

[Guest]

Thankfully, though those tags do work if you quote him. And if you use them in PMs they work. Either you can't use them in the public forums or the forum limits how big you can make your post.

[RoboRed]

The forum's always been a little odd about trying to use a custom specified font size in the BBCode tags. No clue why. I just stick to the preset sizes.

[atikin]

So, this is the place to discuss Project Horizons? I gotta say, when I started Fallout: Equestria last week, I don't think I could have seen myself not only reading all of that, but then going on to read the longest fanfic I've ever seen.

Long story short, as soon as I finished FO:E I had to jump right into Horizons and find out why it had its own page on EQD and everything. It was so hard to take breaks while reading this story. Every chapter just ended on the right note to make me want to continue.

Welcome! Wow, you finished both fics within a week!? You must be kidding! You must be like reading very much! 

Yeah, he's right. It's a bbcode tags changing the size of the text, although I didn't put them intentionally. They appeared while I made a preview of my post and I can't remove them because I can't see them in the post itself somehow. Sorry.

[ILM126]

So, this is the place to discuss Project Horizons? I gotta say, when I started Fallout: Equestria last week, I don't think I could have seen myself not only reading all of that, but then going on to read the longest fanfic I've ever seen.

Long story short, as soon as I finished FO:E I had to jump right into Horizons and find out why it had its own page on EQD and everything. It was so hard to take breaks while reading this story. Every chapter just ended on the right note to make me want to continue.

Somber's done an awesome job so far, and congrats to him and the editors for sticking it out for so damn long. I don't have near the endurance it would take to work on something for multiple years.

As for the current point in the fic, all I can say is that I'm eagerly awaiting how Luna's soul continues to affect BJ, and her imminent showdown with the Core is gonna be awesome.

You read both fics in one week! That's about 2.3 million words!

[O. Hinds]

It's an html-tag. It supposed to enlarge size of text to 35 points, but it doesn't work on this forum, though.

Ah, thanks.

Yeah, he's right. It's a bbcode tags changing the size of the text, although I didn't put them intentionally. They appeared while I made a preview of my post and I can't remove them because I can't see them in the post itself somehow. Sorry.

Ah, okay. Strange, that. Do you compose posts in plain text mode or the default?

It's 'cause you can't have a font size over 29.
[size=30]30[/size] and above just doesn't process.

Ah, thanks.

[atikin]

Ah, okay.  Strange, that.  Do you compose posts in plain text mode or the default?

I use the window in the bottom, so I suppose it's a default option. However I always write from my phone, because I rarely have access to my computer. Maybe it's connected.
Anyway, we kinda drifted from the topic.

[O. Hinds]

Ah, yes; sorry about that.

[Somber]

Thanks so much for the feed back, guys.  In other news, I am done with work, and Bronode flew all the way from Manchester to help me pack up today.  Packing up my computer and shutting down my internet, so it'll be a while before I'm back at mom's and back on line.

Very nice to meet you Wolf.  Hope the story wasn't too terrible.  Also, I dunno what's wrong with these people.  Last time I read Horizons it took only three days so... yeah...  Glad that the story has worked.  There's one last thing to resolve, then it's Blackjack vrs the eater in a game for the end of the world.  Hope I don't blow it... probably will, but you never know...

And thanks for the Kind words, Atikin.  I really couldn't write this any other way.  If Bastard had rebuffed her, or worse, humiliated her (which he very easily could have done) then she would have had no where to go from there.  She would have been alienated from everypony at that part, and the pain would have been absolutely unbearable.  The only routes from there are drug use or suicide.  Bastard knows what its like to be on the shit end of the world, and so he knew that if she wanted to do this, there was a reason, and whether he liked it or not, he'd be best to honor it.  If Blackjack hadn't been there, he then would have worked with finding out what was tearing her down and how to strengthen herself to survive it... probably by becoming a harder, snarkier, and more jaded version of herself.  

Thank you so much for the feedback, Icy and Ryx and everyone.  Also, one day I'm really going to have to just endure the same and release 'Sex Ed in 99.'  They don't want mares mothers at Scotch's age.  That can wait a few years.  They want the mares sexualized.  They want to remove intimacy, especially with males, so there's little time to emotionally bond.  What happened between P-21 and Duct Tape was only allowed because the Overmare needed her.  The queue does more than just maintain the population.  It's a powerful method of control.  By sexualizing the population en masse, they prevent sex becoming something 'special'.  The shower scene in chapter 1 wasn't restricted because it was public, although that's the defacto reason given.  It's because it was an intimate, bonding moment between two mares.  If mares were loyal and devoted to each other, the trust and unity needed to overthrow the overmare and challenge the status quo could begin and there might have been a peaceful transition of power.  Instead, the only unity was between the maintenence mares, since job cohesion was the last unifying social structure.

Stable 99 was a horrible place.  Not just for the males, though they certainly had it worse.  There were homosexual mares who were forced to go through the breeding queue just to break up pairing off with another exclusive mare.  Orgies were held not for depravity, but to reduce love and intimacy to 'who was I just with right now?  Guess it didn't matter.'  99 did almost everything it could to destroy unity and harmony... and love.  It was a good thing it was destroyed.

Anyway, time to see if I can load everything into mom's truck.  Looking forward to seeing everyone at EFNW.

[Guest]

And thanks for the Kind words, Atikin.  I really couldn't write this any other way.  If Bastard had rebuffed her, or worse, humiliated her (which he very easily could have done) then she would have had no where to go from there.  She would have been alienated from everypony at that part, and the pain would have been absolutely unbearable.  The only routes from there are drug use or suicide.  Bastard knows what its like to be on the shit end of the world, and so he knew that if she wanted to do this, there was a reason, and whether he liked it or not, he'd be best to honor it.  If Blackjack hadn't been there, he then would have worked with finding out what was tearing her down and how to strengthen herself to survive it... probably by becoming a harder, snarkier, and more jaded version of herself.  

Thank you so much for the feedback, Icy and Ryx and everyone.  Also, one day I'm really going to have to just endure the same and release 'Sex Ed in 99.'  They don't want mares mothers at Scotch's age.  That can wait a few years.  They want the mares sexualized.  They want to remove intimacy, especially with males, so there's little time to emotionally bond.  What happened between P-21 and Duct Tape was only allowed because the Overmare needed her.  The queue does more than just maintain the population.  It's a powerful method of control.  By sexualizing the population en masse, they prevent sex becoming something 'special'.  The shower scene in chapter 1 wasn't restricted because it was public, although that's the defacto reason given.  It's because it was an intimate, bonding moment between two mares.  If mares were loyal and devoted to each other, the trust and unity needed to overthrow the overmare and challenge the status quo could begin and there might have been a peaceful transition of power.  Instead, the only unity was between the maintenence mares, since job cohesion was the last unifying social structure.

I think everyone gets why it makes sense, but in all this what I don't understand is this:

Stable 99 was a horrible place.  Not just for the males, though they certainly had it worse.  There were homosexual mares who were forced to go through the breeding queue just to break up pairing off with another exclusive mare.  Orgies were held not for depravity, but to reduce love and intimacy to 'who was I just with right now?  Guess it didn't matter.'  99 did almost everything it could to destroy unity and harmony... and love.  It was a good thing it was destroyed.

If you honestly think 99 is a terrible place why go to such length to defend it? If people are uncomfortable or upset with this isn't that the goal in the end? Because if it is you've suceeded in illustrating that it's terrible. I mean if everyone is sitting around going "what a unique and special place 99 is look how it's raised Scotch a very young person who's default to coping with suicide is by fucking an adult" (any healthy person I'd hope would see that as unhealthy even without the suicide part) wouldn't you have failed in showing what a bad place 99 was?

[atikin]

He's right, it's pretty obvious 99 was a terrible place with strong dictatorship that used every possible way to create an easy-to-rule society (just as every dictatorship eventually), but thank you for the clarification anyway.

Too bad I'm not American and I won't be able to meet you on EFNW...

[Anonymouss]

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

Ah, thank you for the elaboration, Somber.

If you honestly think 99 is a terrible place why go to such length to defend it?

...Um. Where has anyone here been defending 99?

Is Equus a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_planet ? Sun (and, probably, Moon) is artificial stuff?

I'm afraid that that's about all I could make out from that post, and I'm furthermore sorry that I don't know the answer to either of those questions.

[Guest]

Did you read Atikin's post and Somber's gratitude for it? The whole thing reads as an attempt to explain away anyone being upset with that scene in particular.

That scene is a product of 99, how exactly is that not a defense of 99?  Would you not consider someone explaining away any kind of criticism involving 99 being cruel because of the males being born to be raped a defense of 99? I would. That seems like the correct conclusion to come to. But I'll assume you disagree.

[O. Hinds]

As I see it, there's a difference between explaining a thing and defending it. There's also a difference between saying that a thing has some good aspects and saying that it was mostly good.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm reading you right here, but are you linking 99 and that scene such that both or neither must be okay?

[SilentCarto]

So, here I am... finally... an entire chapter behind. Thank Celestia for long weekends...

Chapter 75a Commentary:

Editing:

[Guest]

As I see it, there's a difference between explaining a thing and defending it.  There's also a difference between saying that a thing has some good aspects and saying that it was mostly good.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm reading you right here, but are you linking 99 and that scene such that both or neither must be okay?

Yeah, they can be. But I didn't say explaining, I said explaining away. Not sure that there's a difference to anyone else but someone I would see as explaining something is intending to inform the other is meaning to disregard. I see it leaning more towards one way then the other. Especially seeing as if it was done correctly and everyone understood 99 (how could you not at this point) you still should get the same reaction.

 As for the second part, what? They're inseperably linked aren't they? I mean this would not have occured if BJ and/or Scotch hadn't been raised in 99, right? What are you asking? I don't get it.

[Anonymouss]

Spoiler:

[O. Hinds]

@SilentCarto:
Ah, thank you.

Period after "Storm Chaser".

I don't think so, sorry. Purely grammatically, yes, it's a statement. This is dialogue, though, and the question mark indicates that it was said with a questioning tone.

As for the second part, what? They're inseperably linked aren't they? I mean this would not have occured if BJ and/or Scotch hadn't been raised in 99, right? What are you asking? I don't get it.

Were you reading "It's okay for these reasons, many of which involve 99" as "It's okay for these reasons, many of which involve 99, and therefore 99 was also okay"?

@Anonymouss:
I'm sorry, but I'm still having trouble understanding you.

[ILM126]

Also, just one thing that came up in my mind a few days ago. Something about what BJ saw in an earlier chapter... And what just appeared at the end of the latest chapter...

Umm, so what did she see when she died for the second time ;D:

[ILM126]

Anyway, time to see if I can load everything into mom's truck.  Looking forward to seeing everyone at EFNW.

Too bad I'm not American and I won't be able to meet you on EFNW...

Wish Australia had more then one convention a year, and one that is in my local city...

[Guest]

As for the second part, what? They're inseperably linked aren't they? I mean this would not have occured if BJ and/or Scotch hadn't been raised in 99, right? What are you asking? I don't get it.

Were you reading "It's okay for these reasons, many of which involve 99" as "It's okay for these reasons, many of which involve 99, and therefore 99 was also okay"?

Oh, well lemme ask you ask you a question Hinds. if the reason this is okay is because she was raised in 99, that's where she picked it up, how would reading that as 99 is okay or at least this aspect of 99 is okay be inaccurate? Because the reason I've been given that this is okay is because 99 put that in her. No other reason.

If you say this is okay because of the culture, then you're giving the culture a pass, are you not?

[Derpmind]

Oh, well lemme ask you ask you a question Hinds. if the reason this is okay is because she was raised in 99, that's where she picked it up, how would reading that as 99 is okay or at least this aspect of 99 is okay be inaccurate? Because the reason I've been given that this is okay is because 99 put that in her. No other reason.

If you say this is okay because of the culture, then you're giving the culture a pass, are you not?

If you nitpick enough you'll dig yourself a hole. Somber wasn't giving a reason for Scotch's behavior to be "okay" or reasons to excuse 99's culture. He talked about how Scotch's mental state caused her actions and then separately elaborated on the culture of 99. None of that is meant to tell people how they should feel about any of it.

Besides that, the fact is some teenagers have sex at a young age. Soon after hitting puberty and all that. It's not for any cultural reasons and it's probably not healthy, (physically or mentally,) but there are plenty of studies that show some 15, 14, and even 13 year olds in first world countries having sex. The reasons they have sex are their own, not because of any cultural or environmental reasons. Scotch has way more reasons and pressures (and education) than most real world teenagers.

And yes, I did find this somewhat uncomfortable to write. :/ The previous paragraph could be quite a bit bigger but I'm gonna settle with writing just enough to make my point.

[atikin]

Did you read Atikin's post and Somber's gratitude for it? The whole thing reads as an attempt to explain away anyone being upset with that scene in particular. 

That scene is a product of 99, how exactly is that not a defense of 99?  Would you not consider someone explaining away any kind of criticism involving 99 being cruel because of the males being born to be raped a defense of 99? I would. That seems like the correct conclusion to come to. But I'll assume you disagree.

 

I wasn't trying to defend 99. It's pretty clear it's terrible place and its morals isn't normal or right in our understanding. Don't forget that there's actually no such thing as "normal". It's very subjective and depends on what we consider as "normal".
I was just trying to explain why this situation happened and why is it "normal" from Scotch's and Blackjack's point of view. They were raised believing sex isn't something intimate and private. For them it's just another way to cope with day to day problems, just like for you it could be any other activity, such as eating, walking, smoking, etc. That's why it's acceptable in their case and I can understand it.
Somebody also said previously that it is wrong and shouldn't have happened. I don't see any reason why not? They were raised that way and that isn't something that hurts other people, so why not let them do so? In this case Scotch doesn't rape Bastard. I think she's above that level long ago. He's doing it willingly... 
We have to separate the problem here. There are two main problems I see here that came from 99. The first one is that sex became something public and just another way to cope with everyday problems. The second problem is that makes were raised as rape slaves and wasn't treated as equal. Although both problems are connected, I think it's better to separate them in our case.
What's I'm trying to explain is that the first problem isn't that big, because it doesn't actually hurts anyone to have free sex (although that takes a lot from it being something special and a part of love). And it's exactly the reason why this scene happened. But I don't see anything that bad in this scene. 
The second problem, however, is more serious, but I think both Scotch and Blackjack grew up and understood their mistake here long ago, so it's not the case. 
So I'm coming to a question - why exactly do you think this scene is wrong and it shouldn't have happened?
And you probably missed a part of my post, because I'm sure Somber didn't thank me for my opinion about this scene, but for my words of general support of his work... 
After your last post however, I gotta say that, yeah, I actually think this particular aspect is okay. So long nobody get hurt, I see no wrong in this. And yeah, the only reason it happened at all is the culture they got in 99...
And just as it been said, in our world a lot of teenagers are having sex, and the question of its wrong or right is very difficult and depends on many factors... 

 
If "Tom" one of many Eater mask? Or he is real Eater and star metal under Core just  his own Juice extractor? (And it is activated only 200 years ago?)
This explains a lot of strange things we see.
 And that's just one of dozens possible BJ never thought.

And I would prefer either option, where BJ fully manipulated, her "perception" - a  mixture of truth and of artificial nightmares(типа первого канала), and telepathy - a fake, because if everything that happens - a way to happy end - I was forced to leave the story. Do not stop reading, but stop believing. I hate this...

 
I don't clearly understand you as well, but if you wish you can send me your post in Russian and I'll translate it for everyone (yes, I speak Russian). And I don't think a lot of people here will understand your comparison to the First Russian Channel...
As from what I got, you would like Blackjack's perception to be a fake one, caused probably by Eater (or some other factor), and you really dislike the story for being "unrealistic" and having a happy end probably. At least that's what I understood. 
So what I gotta say, I don't think it's a reason to stop reading the story. You can't really know how will it end at this point, although you're right, they're more chances for it to have a happy end. But you have to understand stories don't always end as you would like them to, and happy ends are actually more accepted and popular today. 
I think Somber wouldn't mind you writing an alternative ending for the story after he finishes, if you wish. 

Wish Australia had more then one convention a year, and one that is in my local city...

I don't remember my country having any conventions at all. Anyway, it's too far for anybody special to come from abroad, I suppose...

[Guest]

 
So I'm coming to a question - why exactly do you think this scene is wrong and it shouldn't have happened?

You mean story wise? Just few posts ago I was telling Somber it made sense and shouldn't be removed from the story when he was considering a PG version of it. So, shouldn't have happened? Never ever said it. Let's nip this shit in the bud, once again I'm NOT saying it should be removed. But claiming people are freaking out because this thing that is a result of 99 which SHOULD make them uncomfortable is in fact doing what it is intended to is a defense of 99.

And secondly, it's hard to talk about this without you jumping to the conclusion I'm acccusing you. But you see no problem with an adult having sex with a child* and another adult not stepping into stop it? Especially when that other adult is a soon to be mother of her own children? You don't see ANY moral dilemma there? What has happened to the children of 99 is sexual abuse and the fact BJ sees no problem with the results of that, she's not calling it into question at all is a good reason to call her parenting abilities into question which is what I was talking about from the begining.

Maybe that makes sense for her, but it doesn't change much of anything. Regardless of if it makes sense I still think because of it she'll be a terrible mother.

I really hope that if BJ and Glory do get a chance to talk one last time Glory gets an oppurtunity to explain why this is wrong to her. Not sure how she'd know about it though. Maybe BJ will just mention offhandedly that seems pretty in character for her.

*By the way you and Derpmind misrepresenting this as underage people having sex with eachother is really frustrating. Not that that's okay either, but it definitely seems like you're trying to lessen what has occured and defend 99 with it.

[atikin]

And secondly, it's hard to talk about this without you jumping to the conclusion I'm acccusing you. But you see no problem with an adult having sex with a child* and another adult not stepping into stop it? Especially when that other adult is a soon to be mother of her own children? You don't see ANY moral dilemma there? What has happened to the children of 99 is sexual abuse and the fact BJ sees no problem with the results of that, she's not calling it into question at all is a good reason to call her parenting abilities into question which is what I was talking about from the begining.

When you put it this way, it is really inappropriate situation in our understanding. However, it's said couple of times that Scotch is very mature for her age, due to all the painful experiences she'd been through. So I wouldn't take it for granted that we're really talking here about a child, more like a young adult (although she's young by her age). In this case I see no problem here. The question is not her age, but how mature is she psychologically - that's what makes the difference between a child being sexually abused and an adult (even a young one) choosing to have sex with someone willingly. But taking in count we don't really know Scotch's exact age, and when exactly people in the wasteland (not just from 99) become mature enough to have sex with anyone, we can't tell for sure if it's really appropriate or not for their reality.

As for BJ's parental abilities, I don't think you're absolutely right. She won't rise her children alone, in a total reclusion. As for how I see it, Glory will survive and they're make a family, raising BJ's children together (once again, that's in case BJ won't die). Even if that won't happen, BJ won't be alone. Her children will be influenced by the society they live in, taking its norms and morals as well. And, I suppose, BJ will change too in aspect of attitude towards sex (she already acknowledge there's a difference between her understanding of this subject and other wastelander's), and won't teach her children norms that aren't accepted by the society. Moreover, as it has already been said, BJ also has a lot of positive morals, such as believing in other people (giving them second chance) and preaching friendship and peaceful relationship, which is so essential for turning the wasteland in a better place.
So I personally believe she'll make a good mother, despite all of her wrong morals. I believe she can change such things in herself, just as she changed her attitude towards males and understood her mistakes.

Hope I made myself clear this time. It's so damn easier to write from the computer! It just changes all the way of your thinking!

[Guest]

When you put it this way, it is really inappropriate situation in our understanding. However, it's said couple of times that Scotch is very mature for her age, due to all the painful experiences she'd been through. So I wouldn't take it for granted that we're really talking here about a child, more like a young adult (although she's young by her age). In this case I see no problem here. The question is not her age, but how mature is she psychologically - that's what makes the difference between a child being sexually abused and an adult (even a young one) choosing to have sex with someone willingly. But taking in count we don't really know Scotch's exact age, and when exactly people in the wasteland (not just from 99) become mature enough to have sex with anyone, we can't tell for sure if it's really appropriate or not for their reality.

To start Icy found a quote where Somber says Scotch is 12, we do know her age. But assuming this is similar to Kkat and their headcanon and he's only suggesting that. We can tell from things Sw1tchbl4de has said in regards to the cover he drew that scotch is compareable in age to the CMC.

Secondly I was referring to sexualizing the mares in 99 at a (very) young age as the sexual abuse*. Somber said just a little while ago that was something that occured. Scotch hadn't been through these hardships, so your point about her being psychologically mature because of them is invalid.

*I would argue that scene contained abuse too, but your point on psychological maturity is more valid there. Not that I agree that makes it okay at all, but it is a more valid point.

Were at this point where neither of us will convince the other.

[atikin]

To start Icy found a quote where Somber says Scotch is 12, we do know her age. But assuming this is similar to Kkat and their headcanon and he's only suggesting that. We can tell from things Sw1tchbl4de has said in regards to the cover he drew that scotch is compareable in age to the CMC.

Secondly I was referring to sexualizing the mares in 99 at a (very) young age as the sexual abuse*. Somber said just a little while ago that was something that occured. Scotch hadn't been through these hardships, so your point about her being psychologically mature because of them is invalid.

Yeah, you're right about the age!
And I didn't say she's psychologically mature because of the experiences she'd been through in 99, but because of the experiences she had outside of it. All the adventures she had with BJ surely affected her and made her grow up much faster then usual, just as it happens in real life. People who have a lot of hard experiences in their childhood are usually end up being mature in a very young age (and also usually pretty messed-up, but it doesn't matter now). And that's what allows me to relate to her as a grown-up, at least mentally. When I speak about her I actually draw for myself a mental image of more adult mare than CMC age. Also the way she acts and speaks usually fits better for a more grown-up mare than CMC (although sometimes she acts as a child too, but not as childish as CMC, I think).

PS. And how can we speak about "normal" when we're actually a bunch of grown-up men (mostly) who like a childish show about techno-colored horses, writing fanfics about them doing different things, including having sex, and getting sometimes turned on by that (some of us I suppose)? Just saying...

[SilentCarto]

Chapter 75b Commentary:

Editing:

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